Michigan ATVers with Kids
#21
04-23-2002, 10:25 AM
#22
04-23-2002, 10:20 PM
#23
04-24-2002, 02:14 PM
Tim I can appreciate your opinion and I would feel the same way if I were you.
Now everyone isn't reading Bill's post (muddy4life).
You are putting words in his mouth. I've just read this entire posts and all of you giving him a hard time have tunnel vision and reading what you want to hear.
He never said he agree's with the Michigan laws regarding ATV's. He just said he would obey them. Hell so do I!
He never said he was against ATC's. He was just making a point of WHY the 3 wheeler was the scapegoat. He never said he agreed with it just that he understood.
He never said that ATC's SHOULD be banned. He was just saying why they were banned right or wrong.
Guys give him some credit and reread his posts. You're slamming him big time.
I have a 12 year old daughter and I'm getting her certified in Michigan. I'm a very experienced ATV rider but I'm going to take the class too just incase I might learn something. Plus my daughter and I will be on the same wavelength. The instructor might have some tips that I may totally forget to tell my daughter.
Yes I would love to get my younger daughter signed up too but she's under age and that's a real bummer. But that's the law, right or wrong.
Just keeping in mind you may be a seasoned rider but a fresh perspective is always a good thing. The instructor may say something you never even thought about.
Let's put our pride aside guys and deal with what we have not what should be. We're adults here lets keep that in mind. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Now everyone isn't reading Bill's post (muddy4life).
You are putting words in his mouth. I've just read this entire posts and all of you giving him a hard time have tunnel vision and reading what you want to hear.
He never said he agree's with the Michigan laws regarding ATV's. He just said he would obey them. Hell so do I!
He never said he was against ATC's. He was just making a point of WHY the 3 wheeler was the scapegoat. He never said he agreed with it just that he understood.
He never said that ATC's SHOULD be banned. He was just saying why they were banned right or wrong.
Guys give him some credit and reread his posts. You're slamming him big time.
I have a 12 year old daughter and I'm getting her certified in Michigan. I'm a very experienced ATV rider but I'm going to take the class too just incase I might learn something. Plus my daughter and I will be on the same wavelength. The instructor might have some tips that I may totally forget to tell my daughter.
Yes I would love to get my younger daughter signed up too but she's under age and that's a real bummer. But that's the law, right or wrong.
Just keeping in mind you may be a seasoned rider but a fresh perspective is always a good thing. The instructor may say something you never even thought about.
Let's put our pride aside guys and deal with what we have not what should be. We're adults here lets keep that in mind. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
#25
04-25-2002, 09:18 AM
#26
04-25-2002, 12:08 PM
I thought I was clear in my stance, and didnt think I was putting words in anyones mouth. But I apologise if I did.
Bill's position is that Michigan law should be obeyed, if you are going to ride there, and I totally agree with that. MY stance is that because I very much disagree with Michigan law regarding age limits, and requiring non-Michigan residents to obtain "Michigan" safety training, I will not vacation there. I think Bill and I both agree the age limits are silly. I think we disagree in the wisdom of state mandated, state approved safety training in general, but I raised it mostly as a practical point in that the notion of having to ship your kid to Michigan for safety training from another state before you go there to ride just doesnt enhance my desire to plan a family riding trip there.
The three wheeler issue has little to do with Michigan law, and probably does not belong in this thread but since he happened to toss it out, and I happen to be an avid 3 wheeler rider, and incidentally, initially trained my son to ride on a 60cc TriZinger, I felt the need to answer it. I found no indication in any of Bill's posts that he disagrees with the decision of the CPSC. With questins such as "where would we be if they hadnt stepped in?" I dont think it unreasonable to conclude that Bill supports the CPSC's decision, and I firmly do not. This is a respectful disagreement, and I realize lots of people feel the same way as Bill, but I highly doubt there were many avid 3 wheeler riders among them. If Bill does not support their decision, then you are right, I misinterpreted his posts, and I apologise, and ask for clarification from Bill if anything Ive outlined here is incorrect concerning his postitions.
The Consumer Product Safety Commission is given the task of weeding out products that are unsafe by design, when used PROPERLY. I do not feel that 3 wheelers fall under this category at all, in that in my opinion the skill of the operator is the biggest determining factor as to whether or not its dangerous. The whole opinion point of many of the posts here is that in SKILLED hands, a 3 wheeler does not present a danger noteably greater than other typical forms of offroading, and if you ban them based on the hazards they present in UNSKILLED hands, it opens the door to a wide variety of products. I think the CPSC overstepped its designated function in this instance, and on this we will have to resepctfully disagree. The message many were trying to send to the 4 wheeler riders who supported this, is that the people who were mostly responsible for this didnt go away when they got the 3 wheeler ban. They simply backed up and set their sights on quads. Unskilled riders have a high risk of death or injury on quads too, and outfits like the Bennet Law Firm, cited in a prior post, are aiming at the entire ATV industry one piece at a time. Its called incrementalism, and its the way groups with agendas get things accomplished instead of trying to make radical change overnight. I personally feel those huge oversized ultra heavy utilities are very dangerous on tough trails, and statistically they do have a higher injury rate than 3 wheelers when actual rolls occur (youre less likely to roll but more likley to be injured when you do), but I firmly support your right to choose to ride one.
Anyone is free to disagree, and thats what makes our country great, but disgreement should always be followed by a good healthy debate, and an attempt to understand how others have arrived at their position. None of this was ever meant to appear to be an attack on Bill, and it certainly is not. He may be a very fine instructor and we are ultimately on the same team that believes in promoting safe and responsible offroading. It will also be up to Bill, and you others from Michigan who believe the same, to get unreasonable laws changed if you wish for out of state visitors to come and ATV in Michigan. Ill bet Bill and I can agree on this.
Bill's position is that Michigan law should be obeyed, if you are going to ride there, and I totally agree with that. MY stance is that because I very much disagree with Michigan law regarding age limits, and requiring non-Michigan residents to obtain "Michigan" safety training, I will not vacation there. I think Bill and I both agree the age limits are silly. I think we disagree in the wisdom of state mandated, state approved safety training in general, but I raised it mostly as a practical point in that the notion of having to ship your kid to Michigan for safety training from another state before you go there to ride just doesnt enhance my desire to plan a family riding trip there.
The three wheeler issue has little to do with Michigan law, and probably does not belong in this thread but since he happened to toss it out, and I happen to be an avid 3 wheeler rider, and incidentally, initially trained my son to ride on a 60cc TriZinger, I felt the need to answer it. I found no indication in any of Bill's posts that he disagrees with the decision of the CPSC. With questins such as "where would we be if they hadnt stepped in?" I dont think it unreasonable to conclude that Bill supports the CPSC's decision, and I firmly do not. This is a respectful disagreement, and I realize lots of people feel the same way as Bill, but I highly doubt there were many avid 3 wheeler riders among them. If Bill does not support their decision, then you are right, I misinterpreted his posts, and I apologise, and ask for clarification from Bill if anything Ive outlined here is incorrect concerning his postitions.
The Consumer Product Safety Commission is given the task of weeding out products that are unsafe by design, when used PROPERLY. I do not feel that 3 wheelers fall under this category at all, in that in my opinion the skill of the operator is the biggest determining factor as to whether or not its dangerous. The whole opinion point of many of the posts here is that in SKILLED hands, a 3 wheeler does not present a danger noteably greater than other typical forms of offroading, and if you ban them based on the hazards they present in UNSKILLED hands, it opens the door to a wide variety of products. I think the CPSC overstepped its designated function in this instance, and on this we will have to resepctfully disagree. The message many were trying to send to the 4 wheeler riders who supported this, is that the people who were mostly responsible for this didnt go away when they got the 3 wheeler ban. They simply backed up and set their sights on quads. Unskilled riders have a high risk of death or injury on quads too, and outfits like the Bennet Law Firm, cited in a prior post, are aiming at the entire ATV industry one piece at a time. Its called incrementalism, and its the way groups with agendas get things accomplished instead of trying to make radical change overnight. I personally feel those huge oversized ultra heavy utilities are very dangerous on tough trails, and statistically they do have a higher injury rate than 3 wheelers when actual rolls occur (youre less likely to roll but more likley to be injured when you do), but I firmly support your right to choose to ride one.
Anyone is free to disagree, and thats what makes our country great, but disgreement should always be followed by a good healthy debate, and an attempt to understand how others have arrived at their position. None of this was ever meant to appear to be an attack on Bill, and it certainly is not. He may be a very fine instructor and we are ultimately on the same team that believes in promoting safe and responsible offroading. It will also be up to Bill, and you others from Michigan who believe the same, to get unreasonable laws changed if you wish for out of state visitors to come and ATV in Michigan. Ill bet Bill and I can agree on this.
#27
04-27-2002, 11:49 PM
Tim, Amazing to think that if you would of vacationed in michigan with your family.....and your kids were of leagal age to ride......you would of had a wonderful time.....and you would not be bashing and complaining about the problem you had, which was your own fault. So, any of your argument of our laws and your parental abilities would be mute! So sorry you had this problem on your vacation......they arnt supposed to go like that.....i do feel for you. But i just got the impression you have a bad attitude of our whole state and people because of your own ignorance to the laws....(ignorance is not stupidity....its just being uninformed)
Hope you give the dunes another chance when your children are of proper age..what ever that maybe be at any given time. I do believe that with proper training and practice for someone of the age of your children...can opperate a small bike or atv safely.
Hope you give the dunes another chance when your children are of proper age..what ever that maybe be at any given time. I do believe that with proper training and practice for someone of the age of your children...can opperate a small bike or atv safely.
#28
05-02-2002, 12:10 PM
hey Rich, Im glad you got the point of all my posts. I WAS ignorant of Michigan laws, and now I always ask about age restrictions before going anywhere. The whole point of my posts is that noone else makes that mistake. Had I checked I would have known that children under 10 are not welcome to ride in Michigan, and gone somewhere else. There is no way I could have salvaged a Michigan riding vacation by knowing that. I am in no way attacking the "people of Michigan", but its only the people of Michigan that can change Michigan's laws. Unless you agree with them, and then all I can say is God bless you, but count me out. I dont ride where my kid is not welcome, and that too is my choice, or my "fault". It kills me how many people say they dont agree with Michigans age restrictions, and then jump all over me for saying its an idiotic law. And by the way, if I come back when my kid is "the proper age" he will no longer be a kid! Unless of course, Id like to send him out on a prior summer vacation for the purpose of receiving official Michigan training. How did I attack the "people of Michigan"? Im suggesting for your own sake, you urge your state legislators to remove the age restrictions, unless you agree with them that children under 10 should not ride ATVs. I would also suggest you accept other states ATV training for nonresidents, and/or create an exemption for non-residents. I dont think this would catistrophically gut your current laws, but would make it a little more inviting for families, and people other than the locals. Are my suggestions THAT unreasonable? Why all the defensiveness? Ohio passes stupid laws too, but I am there to make my opinion known, try to get them changed, and attempt to be part of the solution. Im not content to "just live with it and obey it" when I can work to change it, and when I know it is wrong. Now knowing Michigan law, I think any reasonable person with young children would come to the conlusion that taking them to Michigan for ATV riding is not a good idea. If that is any way incorrect, please explain it to me! My only other point is that in my opinion, it DOESNT NEED TO BE THAT WAY!, but apparently you are saying that its does, and Ill respect your opinion and steer clear of Michigan.
#29
05-02-2002, 01:31 PM
Tim,
First of all..if your kids were of age to ride in Michigan,
at age 12, they would be adults? They wouldnt be kids?
Yes, i believe that there are laws that dont make much
logical sense. And its also odd that our state laws are
at times so far apart from others.
As far as being logical with an age for the ability to
ride an atv: i could teach a 14 year old how to drive
a car safely. I could also teach a 17 year old how to
drink alcohol in a safe mannor. But does that make it
ok?
Some laws dont make much sense. But do they actually
hurt us?
Yes, it is a govnerment by the people and for the people,
it is up to the citizens to declare what they feel is
not correct or fair.
I do respect your point that it is up to us to make
changes.
Rich
PS...sorry if i maybe alittle off base about your feelings
twoards Michaganders, i just got the feeling from your
original post that you were conveying that feeling....no
worries....one mans perception is another mans falacy.
Ride on.........
First of all..if your kids were of age to ride in Michigan,
at age 12, they would be adults? They wouldnt be kids?
Yes, i believe that there are laws that dont make much
logical sense. And its also odd that our state laws are
at times so far apart from others.
As far as being logical with an age for the ability to
ride an atv: i could teach a 14 year old how to drive
a car safely. I could also teach a 17 year old how to
drink alcohol in a safe mannor. But does that make it
ok?
Some laws dont make much sense. But do they actually
hurt us?
Yes, it is a govnerment by the people and for the people,
it is up to the citizens to declare what they feel is
not correct or fair.
I do respect your point that it is up to us to make
changes.
Rich
PS...sorry if i maybe alittle off base about your feelings
twoards Michaganders, i just got the feeling from your
original post that you were conveying that feeling....no
worries....one mans perception is another mans falacy.
Ride on.........