06 ltr 450 fuel in oil

[duster]

The Kawi is a little different.

Looking at the manual, even a regular 20w50 is OK in it for my riding climate.
And I'm sure the synthetic 15w50 will fare better.

On the rare occasion it snows here is the only time I ride when it's real cold usually.

You have me thinking about it though, so I'm going to do the freezer test on it and judge from there.

The factory fill was just fine when I brought it home.
(probably dino 10w40?)

[reconranger]

My Kawi KLX250S is very "old school" for a 2009 model, in that it still recommends the heavy oils like 20W50 for very hot weather.

Maintaining oil pressure depends on a lot of things like the size of the gallies, oil pump, etc. And, older design engines have slacer tolerances than new generation ones do, so you need to have heavy oils to bridge the larger gaps between moving parts. I am however very susprised that the Kawi 450 doesn't have very tight tolerances....

[duster]

Originally Posted by reconranger

My Kawi KLX250S is very "old school" for a 2009 model, in that it still recommends the heavy oils like 20W50 for very hot weather.

Maintaining oil pressure depends on a lot of things like the size of the gallies, oil pump, etc. And, older design engines have slacer tolerances than new generation ones do, so you need to have heavy oils to bridge the larger gaps between moving parts. I am however very susprised that the Kawi 450 doesn't have very tight tolerances....

I don't know.
I'll pick a winter oil if need be.
A freezer test will tell me more about what I'm comfortable with than the manual.

I think it specs as 20w50 OK to 0 or 32... can't remember which to be honest with you. And I have not checked the cold viscosity specs on the Mobil 1 yet either.

I don't know how the tolerances compare inside the Kawi engine. All I know is that it seems to be proving to be a bit different animal when it comes to mechanical maintenance and mechanical reliability / longevity... especially for a 450.

Back when I was shopping, I had another brand dealer feed me a line about top end and piston service life on the KFX. I haven't ridden mine a lot at all to date, but have surpassed that number already. So it was BS. Lots of guys have had them since early release and have yet to have to adjust or refresh anything.

Much is yet to be seen, but they may have created a really reliable mill.
It may become known as the bullet proof 450.
I sure hope so since I already spent my money

[reconranger]

Silly to do a freezer test, when you can just look up the Vis (cSt) @ 40 degrees for your favorite oil. The lower the number, the easier it will flow on a cold start.....

[duster]

Originally Posted by reconranger

Silly to do a freezer test, when you can just look up the Vis (cSt) @ 40 degrees for your favorite oil. The lower the number, the easier it will flow on a cold start.....

Yeah brother, but the detail you miss there is the degrees are Celsius.
40 C equals 104 F

So it doesn't tell you crap about the cold start temperature, unless you want to know what it is if you park in the sun and cold start at 2 PM in the desert.


I like the freezer test... shows me a hands-on result I can quantify and judge.
You really ought to try it.



The 15w50 Mobil 1 fared better than I feared.
The viscosity "is" way thicker for sure.
But the oil is more mobile than you would expect at that viscosity.
It moves and pours real easily.

Where you can tell the viscosity is much thicker is the sloshing sound in the bottle does not continue on. After the first few shakes you can't hear it anymore.

It's probably winter-OK for most of the winter I have (mild) but I'm not comfortable with it a temperatures well below freezing. But I don't ride when it's that cold. Coldest would probably be in the upper 20's after a snow.

I probably should try to find something else though that will be OK in the coldest of times... a 10w__, 5w__, or 0w__...

Maxima might have the all-around answer... what does that stuff cost a quart?

[reconranger]

Originally Posted by duster

Yeah brother, but the detail you miss there is the degrees are Celsius.
40 C equals 104 F

So it doesn't tell you crap about the cold start temperature, unless you want to know what it is if you park in the sun and cold start at 2 PM in the desert.


I like the freezer test... shows me a hands-on result I can quantify and judge.
You really ought to try it.

You are way wrong! This is the value that all cold start capabilities are based on throughout the industry. But if hillbillies want to shake cold bottles, everybody has a freezer....not everybody has an oil viscosity measuring machine.

[duster]

Originally Posted by reconranger

You are way wrong! This is the value that all cold start capabilities are based on throughout the industry. But if hillbillies want to shake cold bottles, everybody has a freezer....not everybody has an oil viscosity measuring machine.

I get that and don't disagree...
However, this is what I have the problem with...

I can tell by Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C (212°F) what the viscosity is at operating temp.
Example = Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C (212°F) is 13.9

That makes sense.

However I can make no judgment of what an oil might be like at 25°F from the following example...
Example = Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C (104°F) is 93.4

That makes no sense to me.

I can however put a couple bottles of oil in a freezer and tell how they compare at temps below freezing.

Hillbilly or not, I can make better judgment of that than 93.4 @ 104°F

[reconranger]

The reason it is tested a 40 degrees C is that at ultralow temperatures it flows so slow that the test would take forever. The 40 degree values extrapolate to low temperatures, even if that doesn't make sense to you...or I guess all those engineers and lubrication chemists out there are just freaking idiots compared to you! Maybe write a book or something so you can set them straight.....

[duster]

Originally Posted by reconranger

The reason it is tested a 40 degrees C is that at ultralow temperatures it flows so slow that the test would take forever. The 40 degree values extrapolate to low temperatures, even if that doesn't make sense to you...or I guess all those engineers and lubrication chemists out there are just freaking idiots compared to you! Maybe write a book or something so you can set them straight.....

I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers there now...

What I am saying is... an oil's viscosity @ 40°C (104°F) doesn't tell you a lot about it's viscosity at 0°F.

And here is why, beyond the obvious...

The two viscosity tests @ 40°C and 100°C are for two reasons.
One is to determine the regular SAE grade at operating temp of 100°C /212°F.
The other is to determine the amount of change in viscosity between the two tests.
This is where the Viscosity Index value is determined

An oil with less change scores a higher viscosity index.

Therefore does it not stand to reason that just because two oils have the same value at 104°F DOES NOT mean they will have the SAME value at 0°F???

Truth is they WILL NOT unless they also have the same Viscosity Index...
Or rate of change in viscosity over temperature range.

Does that make sense now?



Fact is they absolutely do conduct tests at zero and sub-zero temperatures to determine cold viscosity. This is where the number before the "w" comes from... 0w 5w 10w 15w 20w. The problem is that the SAE conducts these test... and their standards for classification are hard to apply.

About all you can tell is that the smaller the number, the lower the viscosity at lower temps. The tests are held at different temps for each class and so forth and have different requirements, etc... so not much else can be absorbed from that.

So for example, it is pretty hard to determine exactly how cold it is safe to use a 20w50 for example, or a 15w40 or a 10w40.

There are several charts floating around out there.
Most of them different... like for example, this one....



However, I don't think I'd want to use a 15w or a 20w at those low temps.

So see what I mean?
Purely guessing, I'd want to add at least 15 degrees to all those start points.

[Canadian144]

To the OP.... I'd look it up on an LTR forum. I won't link them here, but look on the LTR450HQ, you should find an answer there.

I don't have a problem like this (and haven't had one) with my LTR450, so I don't really know what to tell you.