Exactly the opposite here in So. Calif. This is sport quad country! Most places, you are at a huge disadvantage on a large heavy ute, and I fear the same disadvantage will apply to the 700XX!

In the old days, ute riders were considered redneck hillbillies, and I just can't get that out of my mind. I am actually uncomfortable being on a ute for that reason.

Utes did finally catch on with the hunters and a few like me who deliberately go looking for terrifying terrain, and for some reason around here they seem to attract the senior citizen set.....but, what utility market there was here has gotten gobbled up by the Rhinos. Rhinos are huge, and lots of guys have $20,000+ dumped into theirs. Plus, people who would never consider riding a quad or dirt bike, are willing to go Rhino. And once again, Honda is late getting to the side-by-side party!!!

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

Edited: 04/26/2008 at 10:12 AM by reconranger

The Rhino type machines are not doing well here also, some of the trails you do not have a inch to spare on each side on a ATV let alone a side by side.

-------------------------
2001 SP 500 H.O

Same here in the mountains, and again here I think the 700XX will be at a disadvantage because it is on the bulky/heavy side. My friends who have KFX 700's won't ever ride with me on these trails, and big utes really have their hands full.

But, in some places the Rhino guys try to squeze down the trail anyway. The result is that what once was motorcycle single track gets turned into quad single track (so the dirt bikers hate us quadders), and the Rhino's come along and turn that into a wide fire road (so both the dirt bikers and quadders hate the Rhinos!).

There are 50" wide barriers that are intended to keep the Rhinos out, but they pull them down. I have seen it almost come to blows when dirt bikes meet a Rhino on the trail!

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

Edited: 04/25/2008 at 12:33 PM by reconranger

reconranger: i hop you dont mind but im gonna rearrange your words on this one and make a statement all my own.


DIRTBIKES BLOW

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NEVER BUY A HONDA. CRAP. EVERY ONE OF EM.

I live in Upstate NY and this place has a lot of trails and areas that Utes are made for.......I would not say it is sport quad country like SoCal is, but there are still more than one might think.

But I still see a TON of sport machines..... sure it's probably a 60/40 split that I see on the trails and in trucks, maybe even closer to 75/25 if you count the hunters and farmers into the mix........as far as pure riders go there are still a ton of sport machines with solid axles and low ground clearance......... and a lot of great riders who know how to use them...

I find that people with Utes are on one because they just have no idea how to ride a sport machine, or don't want to be bothered with shifting or leaning. This is not a put-down but is just a difference in riding style.

-------------------------
'05 Zuki z400
'06 Raptor 350 (wife's)
'00 Honda Rancher 350 4x4

The answer to the sport vs utility dilema is to own both...and some dirt bikes too!

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

I don't think I would go so far as to say dirt bikes blow. I would agree that dirt bike elitist blow. Or any one else that starts thinking that they are an elite group, and have more right to public land than someone else.

We have had several trails nearby where I live that have had those 50" wide gates spring up, and signs that say "ATVs only". The problem I have with that is that at my age I remember those ATV only trails as Jeep roads that have been there for 50 years. Since when did a road that has been used for 50 years by everybody suddenly become an "ATV only" trail. Since the ATVers started thinking they were an elite group, and since they got a politician to agree to the signs and gates.

There is something that gets forgotten all to often, ... respect for others! Obviously, if you have a Rhino, don't take it down a single track motorcycle path that motorcyclist have spent years developing. But lets not start closing public land to off road vehicle users based on what type of vehicle they have. That becomes a slipperly slope. The first thing we do is close roads to side by sides, then it is just one more step to close roads to all motorized vehicles, and we're all screwed.

and as for Honda and their 700XX, which was the real topic of this thread. Honda needs to retire their whole upper level management team that is in charge of vehicle design. They need new blood in their company in a bad way, and some people that have a more realistic vision of what the buyer needs.

DV

-------------------------
'07 Yamaha Rhino 660: Lonestar long travel suspension w/ Elka shocks; Gorilla axles; Trinity sheave; Dynatek CDI; Yoshimura RS-5 exhaust
'07 Yamaha Grizzly 700: Ohlins shocks; Fix Powersports sheave; Dynatek CDI
'08 KTM 530 EXC R: street legal dirt bike

Good point Viper......

Honda has always rested on their accomplishments too long. But they are such a diversified company it is hard to imagine that new blood would make a difference. Perhaps they need to split the ATV division into sport and utility in order to get R&D money to each place. But like most companies they put the most R&D into what sells most, and utility ATVs still make up the vast majority of sales.

Suzuki and Yamaha spend more time/money on their sport machines, they always have. Honda created the great 250R and since then everything else has been based off that design. Obviously there is nothing wrong with the 400ex, and 450R machines today, but both have had far less attention paid to them then Suzuki and Yamaha have paid to their sport machines.

But Honda builds for reliability, and they let the buyer add on parts from there. The have learned that no matter what they do, the racer and speed nuts are going to tear it apart anyway and make it their own. That is what makes them so great and popular.... people know the reliability is going to be there as a starting platform.

-------------------------
'05 Zuki z400
'06 Raptor 350 (wife's)
'00 Honda Rancher 350 4x4

If the 700XX market niche that Honda was aiming for is the big bore utility rider who is looking for something more sporty, do you all think that this is a market where this machine will sell???

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

Edited: 04/26/2008 at 10:27 AM by reconranger

No. I do not think the 700XX will sell to big bore utility riders looking for something more sporty. If it were the exact same machine, with the same weight, same size, same suspension, but had four wheel drive, with either a low range transmission or a compound low first gear in the existing transmission, shaft drive at both ends, instead of chain drive, ... then ... I don't think they could make enough of them. What is Honda doing with chain drive on this big pig anyway? It looks like they are copying a two wheel drive Scrambler that was designed 15 years ago.

I think big bore utility riders still want four wheel drive in their "something more sporty". Can Am already makes it, in both a 500cc and an 800cc version, ... its called a Renegade.

-------------------------
'07 Yamaha Rhino 660: Lonestar long travel suspension w/ Elka shocks; Gorilla axles; Trinity sheave; Dynatek CDI; Yoshimura RS-5 exhaust
'07 Yamaha Grizzly 700: Ohlins shocks; Fix Powersports sheave; Dynatek CDI
'08 KTM 530 EXC R: street legal dirt bike

The biggest drawback will be that having a manual clutch, helmetless redneck hillbilie big bore automatic tranny riders won't be able to ride with a beer in their left hand!!!

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

Edited: 04/27/2008 at 08:36 AM by reconranger

Why cant the manufacturers figure out what we want. All they need to do is build a sport 4x4, and they won't be able to make enough of them. What it needs to be is:

450 lbs. maximum

The size of a mid-size utility (Kodiak 350, or Rancher 350)

700cc engine minimum, and don't detune it to death like every Honda utility engine on earth is detuned. Instead of a Rincon 675cc engine that makes 36 HP, it would have to have at least 47 HP like the Grizzly 686cc engine. 55 HP would be even better.

4x4 shift on the fly. For sport use a front locker would not necessarily be needed, but could be optional.

No racks, except as a option that can be purchased separately from the dealer.

Low range if it has a CVT transmisson, or a 6 speed manual transmission with a manual clutch (NOT auto clutch), that has a compound low first gear, and reverse. Or if Honda uses the Rincon transmission, give it four gears instead of three, and make the fourth gear a lower gear than the current first gear. The Rincon transmission would actually work if the Rincon had at least double the horsepower it has now. The reason that transmission always feels like it is in the wrong gear is because the engine is the dog of the century.

At least 10" of high quality indepent front and rear suspension travel. Give us the good shocks that are fully adjustable for low and high speed compression damping, and rebound damping, just like the sport ATVs. The Rincon's suspension would be a good example if it had 3" more suspension travel, and better quality shocks.

Separate front and rear brakes

-------------------------
'07 Yamaha Rhino 660: Lonestar long travel suspension w/ Elka shocks; Gorilla axles; Trinity sheave; Dynatek CDI; Yoshimura RS-5 exhaust
'07 Yamaha Grizzly 700: Ohlins shocks; Fix Powersports sheave; Dynatek CDI
'08 KTM 530 EXC R: street legal dirt bike

Edited: 04/27/2008 at 09:59 AM by DesertViper

Honda 700
(Here Is The real Story)

Honda will never build or go after the fastest quad or street sport motorcycle!
Honda is worried about product liability law suit casses that is almost bankrupting the Company.

Honda will always built a good handling and a good middle of the road performance vehicles but they have no intentions of being the fastest or going after that market. Think about it? All these past years Honda has never been the King of anything or near the top in any quad classes.

Honda is one of the best engineered and best handling Atv's you can buy, without being king of the hill, and for me thats just fine.

Garman

The original Wolverine was headed in the right direction, but Yamaha bailed and turned it into nothing but a warmed over utility.....

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

Edited: 04/27/2008 at 11:39 AM by reconranger

You know the saying: "Amatures talk speed, pros talk handling"!

I have never been disapointed in a machine that handles well, no mater how fast it will or won't go. So far, the Hondas I have owned have never disapointed me....

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

I basically agree with you DesertViper, with a few small differences.
Basically, take the 700xx or an Outlaw IRS and add a CVT with the Polaris seamless 4WD system with shaft drive, add enough mud protection to keep it out of your face (for the eastern muddy trail rednecks like me, who would be the major buyers of these things), floorboards, a comfortable all day seat with a cushy good handling suspension, a large enough rack to haul a small cooler full of sandwiches and cokes, or a six pack.
This is what I have been wanting for a long time.

Edited: 04/27/2008 at 06:31 PM by nekkidbik

I remember when the 450R came out, alot of people were upset that Honda missed the boat on that one. Look how many they've sold...
I want to ride one, wondering if it's really worth the $5K I'm gonna have to fork over after selling my Z though.

-------------------------
03 Z400....HMF, AC ,UM , UNI, 450R front shocks, RAZR 2's
07 Ozark

All wheel drive would work very good for a sport 4x4. That is what the race winning super cars have that race the Pike's Peak hillclimb every year. Its a system that is meant to hook up and go at full throttle, which would be good for a sport 4x4. A traditional locker like on the Yamaha Grizzly for example, is not meant to be used at high speed, and wouldn't be necessay on a sport 4x4.

-------------------------
'07 Yamaha Rhino 660: Lonestar long travel suspension w/ Elka shocks; Gorilla axles; Trinity sheave; Dynatek CDI; Yoshimura RS-5 exhaust
'07 Yamaha Grizzly 700: Ohlins shocks; Fix Powersports sheave; Dynatek CDI
'08 KTM 530 EXC R: street legal dirt bike

Was at the dealer this morning, and I was pushing on the rear end and thinking how very stiff it was even though the shock adjusters were all the way out. Then, I looked closer and noticed that it has a torsion bar. No doubt this can be tweaked for a plusher ride.

-------------------------
Southern California.....

Desert: 450R and 400EX
Mountains: Rancher 420 and 350 4X4's
Kids: Two 250EX's and 90
Dual-Sport Bike: XT225

Past rides: 300EX, 2wd Rancher 350, Recon, TRX90, Z400, LT160, LT80, Warrior, Blaster, CRF230F

Yeah I spoke with a dealer today that has them in stock and he said 8499! Sweet Jesus! I have also been told it is not very good for mountain trails back east here either and is really a wide open dune bike. Others there said it wasn't good and others have praised it. Last review I read online said it was the fastest bike out besides the Thunder Cat 1000. They just said it was not good for going slow and the low end was not that good and stalled alot. Sounds about like the Rincon I had and it wasn't anygood