I'm sorry to say time is running out for off roading. Al Gore's film on global warming has become the only scientific evidence the environmental wacko's need to end off roading and maybe even NASCAR racing.

The Dems already have the congress, if they get the white house too just who is going to stop them? The republicans are nothing but a bunch of wimps, they will never stop the crazy left. We are screwed!

Welcome to the forms.

Interesting first post.

Global warming will continue, once the flaming begins here.

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If it take more than 3 bolts to hold it on, it's probably crucial.

Welcome to the forum 76diesel!

Very interesting first post.

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07 Jetmoto 250 Sport
07 90cc Mini Ute
06 Jetmoto 200 Enduro
06 Jetmoto 200
06 Jetmoto 150
06 Jetmoto 125
04 Yamoto 150
01 KTM 400 EXC
92 WR 250
91 CR 250
88 YZ 80
85 CR 500
83 XL 600
82 XR 200
79 XR 75
79 Odyssey
73 Bultaco 360
71 Rickman Montessa 250
70 Rupp Enduro
69 Honda 50

I don't think you'll have to worry about the Democrats closing the parks. They'll be too busy cleaning up after Republicans to worry about us.

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2005 Banshee 10 mil Cheetah
2004 Banshee 10 mil Cheetah Cub
2004 Bombardier DS650, slower than stock
2002 Raptor 686 Big Bore
2006 Rhino! These things are really cool and you can haul spare parts for A&S motors!!!!
2006 Ford Lariat Crew Cab Powerstroke 4X4

I'm curious about Al Gore's movie. Would I find it in the science fiction section?

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If it take more than 3 bolts to hold it on, it's probably crucial.

if not it might be found under "gay porn"

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'07 trx450

If the present off-road leadership that is largely responsible for getting us into this massive closure mess....keep tuning in here to find that we're all still time and again blaming the "politicians and greenies" for our lack of proper access or even respect....then you've got to believe that their strategy of "pay-no-attention-to-that-man-behind-the-curtain" has truly worked out here in the land of off-road Oz.

The largest land closures in the history of man are happening all around us...yet we're all about ready to throw in the towel here because Hilary and 'global warming' are the sky-is-falling subjects of the day.....rather than simply demanding that competent leadership tout zero-tolerance; one-roof organization or even "pay-to-play" as our rallying cries.

Democrats didn't kill this sport.

It was the people in it and their unwillingness to stand up for what wasn't necessarily easy to do...when the time truly came to do it.

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Forming a "Long Range Financial Subcommittee" in MI.:
Take two inexplicably expired term motorcycle reps. still serving on the board (one names yet another motorcycle rep)
Add 1 full-size and but 1 atv rep.
Arrogantly claim that the entire process should be finished in 4 conference calls with absolutely no public involvement or any meeting minutes recorded.
Result?
No complaint whatsoever from sheep-like atv clubs with literally tens of millions in play.

Yawn.

-------------------------
07 Jetmoto 250 Sport
07 90cc Mini Ute
06 Jetmoto 200 Enduro
06 Jetmoto 200
06 Jetmoto 150
06 Jetmoto 125
04 Yamoto 150
01 KTM 400 EXC
92 WR 250
91 CR 250
88 YZ 80
85 CR 500
83 XL 600
82 XR 200
79 XR 75
79 Odyssey
73 Bultaco 360
71 Rickman Montessa 250
70 Rupp Enduro
69 Honda 50

This refers to the 2 wheeled guys in Mich. I assume? Or the whole country this time?

Since Ive been doing this I think it started with sound, We were too loud. Then it was desert tortoise, We were killing all of them. Then it moved on the the spotted owl, we were affecting them also. Lastly it was the threat to the deer population. All were proven wrong. Now they have moved on to erosion, noise and global warming. What is scary to me is slowly the land is being taken away and like you say only a very few get involved at all. And as a bonus a lot of those involved with the sport are our worst enemies. Not real good for public relations a lot of the time.

They are doing a pretty good job of it here in Ca. Not sure about Mich.

Yawn.

-------------------------
07 Jetmoto 250 Sport
07 90cc Mini Ute
06 Jetmoto 200 Enduro
06 Jetmoto 200
06 Jetmoto 150
06 Jetmoto 125
04 Yamoto 150
01 KTM 400 EXC
92 WR 250
91 CR 250
88 YZ 80
85 CR 500
83 XL 600
82 XR 200
79 XR 75
79 Odyssey
73 Bultaco 360
71 Rickman Montessa 250
70 Rupp Enduro
69 Honda 50

Originally posted by: mywifesquad
"This refers to the 2 wheeled guys in Mich. I assume? Or the whole country this time? .."

(blackballed):
I'm not certain what particular portion of my commentary you are referring to.... but Michigan (IMO) has been an ugly microcosm that truly represents the rudderless mess that we have all been in for quite some time now. (it's pretty hard to ignore leadership at the largest maintained system in the nation when things are going as wrong as they have been here).

"... Since Ive been doing this I think it started with sound, We were too loud...."

We were and often are to loud...and I think that you would agree with this in areas that should be regulated as such.

"...Then it was desert tortoise, We were killing all of them. Then it moved on the the spotted owl, we were affecting them also. Lastly it was the threat to the deer population. All were proven wrong...."

No argument here; just the fact that no initial effort was ever made in many of these areas to properly maintain many of these fast branching out trails or even properly enforce the sport. This would've required a spearheaded effort by orv leadership to raise the massive amounts of cash needed to have properly payed as we went (including fighting the 'spotted owl' crap) and as you know; the term "pay-to-play" has never even crossed their lips to this day.(until increased fees were literally forced on us in places like AZ; where there recently became no 'choice' about supporting the resource or not).

"...Now they have moved on to erosion, noise and global warming...."

I don't agree with the latter concept; yet I'm all for forcing us to pay through the nose to prevent and make adjustments for the first two.
Why not?

"...What is scary to me is slowly the land is being taken away and like you say only a very few get involved at all. And as a bonus a lot of those involved with the sport are our worst enemies. Not real good for public relations a lot of the time...."

I suppose that it all comes down to exactly who you view as our own worst enemies.

If it's me for speaking my peace regarding orv leadership and their failure to both unite us and earn respect around this country through our willlingness to truly pay our own way in solving these problems with a zero tolerance approach to them....then let the debate begin.

Yet if it's our silent leaders themselves (didn't one major group just try to raise funds with the caveat that they wouldn't approach us for money again right in the middle of all this mess?) that you refer to above....I couldn't agree more.

"....They are doing a pretty good job of it here in Ca. Not sure about Mich....."

I'm glad to hear this if you're referring to orv leadership; as I've found few out west willing to turn their focus eastwards for the overall good of the sport...yet many out there expecting all of us back here in the east to donate our first borns to some pretty ill-defined efforts.

Example: "Save (fill-in-the-blank)"
...yet liberal-minded enthusiasts seem more than willing to just charge the government for properly managing said resource...with little more out of their pockets from year-to-year for doing so!(enter a Travel Management Rule born basically out of pure desparation and a lack of confidence that orv leadership would ever stand up for the pay-to-play privitization concepts that just might end their cozy little non-profit 'careers' through feared organizational uprisings).

As I mentioned earlier, MWQ; we can allow the blame for all of this to fall in the laps of both politicians or the so-called 'greenies' which one would expect that this sport would have eventually encountered anyways.

I'll put the blame on those not obviously posessing the professionalism or smarts to properly navigate us through these obstacles in the first place (using a reputation that was never actually built as a foundation).

-------------------------
Forming a "Long Range Financial Subcommittee" in MI.:
Take two inexplicably expired term motorcycle reps. still serving on the board (one names yet another motorcycle rep)
Add 1 full-size and but 1 atv rep.
Arrogantly claim that the entire process should be finished in 4 conference calls with absolutely no public involvement or any meeting minutes recorded.
Result?
No complaint whatsoever from sheep-like atv clubs with literally tens of millions in play.

They will have a rough road to hoe to get rid of all off road sports weather it be racing or tractor pulling. I think that would even have to include golf carts unless they went to all battery operated

Well said sir! I've been of the opinion for quite some time that the American people have become sheep. We only have three real weapons to fight for our rights and what we want. Our voices (call or write that politician), our vote (if that politician doesn't respond), and our wallets.

And stop buying that cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart!

I need more coffee.

By the way...I agree with the other comments on responsibility. What ever happened to just being a good citizen? Pick up your trash and don't be a jerk out there!

-------------------------
2005 Banshee 10 mil Cheetah
2004 Banshee 10 mil Cheetah Cub
2004 Bombardier DS650, slower than stock
2002 Raptor 686 Big Bore
2006 Rhino! These things are really cool and you can haul spare parts for A&S motors!!!!
2006 Ford Lariat Crew Cab Powerstroke 4X4

Orv leadership never drew a line in the sand in regards to us all becomming or working towards becoming responsible off-road stewards or not.

Increasing fines and/or impoundments were unspeakable concepts; entire regions of the country were given as 'pass' on safety-related issues (they didn't want to 'upset' any of the lowest common denominator paying a portion of their non-profit salry) and the better-than-average-well-off financially among us continually affording these machines year-to-year....were never asked to plow our money directly into the resources themselves; as opposed to these disjointed non-profit orgs. that didn't do a darn thing for our stewardship reputation by diverting it.

We shouldn't have expected enthusiasts to quit being jerks or to have majically turned into good land stewards by 'hoping' that they someday came across some obscure land-use org. newsletter and a club member reading it at the trailhead.

As with the zero tolerance campaigns that sledders were finally forced to adopt; we needed to shame a good number of our fellow community members into behaving something other than badly....and we just never had the quality type leadership on board over all these years with the character or guts to do just that. (we never took the time to define their goals or job descriptions and they never took it upon themselves to fight for anything that wasn't 100% 'pc' and always played both sides of the fence).

Again, the fact that everybody is STILL blaming the politicians and greenies while this house of cards we built effectively falls down all around us...is more indicitive of our future plight than anything else that I can think of.

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Forming a "Long Range Financial Subcommittee" in MI.:
Take two inexplicably expired term motorcycle reps. still serving on the board (one names yet another motorcycle rep)
Add 1 full-size and but 1 atv rep.
Arrogantly claim that the entire process should be finished in 4 conference calls with absolutely no public involvement or any meeting minutes recorded.
Result?
No complaint whatsoever from sheep-like atv clubs with literally tens of millions in play.

This topic sure lends itself to lengthy comments doesn't it?

I'm not much of an activist, so I admit not beating the drum so loudly in the promotion of off-road ATV use. But I do take seriously being a good citizen in the course of ATV riding here in Oregon, though mine is a utility quad that I use more on our own property than on public lands. My feeling is that for us non-activist types maybe it's enough just riding with courtesy, following the rules when practical, and being prepared to lend assistance to fellow riders in need. By and large this is what I see happening, and this in itself is doing something positive in the sport even though it's relatively passive.

I don't see the big dark curtain coming down, though I've certainly seen posts of users, even right here in Oregon, that are pretty gloomy. Everyone's entitled to their own stupid opinion myself included.

Funds for the promotion of ATV use on public lands in Oregon are generated from the permit stickers; $10 per vehicle for a two-year period. Though some of this money is eaten up in administrative costs, expenditure on actual trail development is evident. The Prospect OHV Trail System in the High Cascades is just one example. There are a lot of places to ride even outside the many designated OHV areas. Here, and if I'm not mistaken in many other states as well, one can ride an ATV on any unpaved single-lane forest road on public land, such as on Forest Service or BLM lands, except in national parks.

Across the nation I suppose the reality lies somewhere between our situation here in Oregon and that in New Jersey. Is it true there is actually no legal place to ride an ATV on public lands in New Jersey as someone said in this forum? If so, I would just have to say you pick your poison if you live there and buy an ATV. It wouldn't make sense to me.

I will conclude by acknowledging there is a movement out there which would shut us out of public lands, all they can piece by piece, but this isn't anything new. And I don't see the end just around the corner as some in the other extreme claim.

ATV use continues grow, yes part of the problem, but so long as the vast majority of people riding ATVs on public lands do it as good citizens and respect the environment, I think we'll always have places to ride. Anyway, it's our land, and more are arriving in our camp all the time.

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2007 Honda TRX420FM
Superwinch ATV3000

My Rancher 420 Page

Originally posted by: WoodRat
"...Funds for the promotion of ATV use on public lands in Oregon are generated from the permit stickers; $10 per vehicle for a two-year period. Though some of this money is eaten up in administrative costs, expenditure on actual trail development is evident...."

While respecting your opinion; I believe that you've actually helped make my point.

IMO, there is no way in heck that $5 per year could ever possibly cover the work needed to maintain a state or federal trail sytem properly...and I don't even care how big the darn thing is or exactly how many people even use it.(locking fee levels in for two years like this creates even more problems).

And I'll take that statement even one step further...

Orv leadership has reasoned for decades that keeping down user fees to these ridiculously low levels....is directly related to a higher percentage chance that the true bulk of these available monies would go exactly where?....why, directly into all of these various non-profit orv club's pockets!
Sure, there is a maximum threshold that each enthusiast will duly pay to be good stewards of the environment that they are affecting....but why in the heck should the majority of this expendable income be going directly into the resource itself...when there are all these career non-profit guys out there hoping to get on some payroll or more often than not; write off tax-wise everything under the sun; in the name of 'the sport'?

"...and if I'm not mistaken in many other states as well, one can ride an ATV on any unpaved single-lane forest road on public land, such as on Forest Service or BLM lands, except in national parks...."

I think that you need to take note of the new travel management rules in your area this year and hope that your leaders in Oregon were much more successful at making this a "zero impact" catastrophe than so-called leaders were in Michigan and many other areas around this country.(I don't know if your NF or BLM maps have changed drastically recently; but ours sure as heck have and not for the better).

Thank you for your comments; as I, for one, very much appreciate them.

John

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Forming a "Long Range Financial Subcommittee" in MI.:
Take two inexplicably expired term motorcycle reps. still serving on the board (one names yet another motorcycle rep)
Add 1 full-size and but 1 atv rep.
Arrogantly claim that the entire process should be finished in 4 conference calls with absolutely no public involvement or any meeting minutes recorded.
Result?
No complaint whatsoever from sheep-like atv clubs with literally tens of millions in play.

I assumed your refering to the "current orv leadership" as the 2 wheeled guys". I have top wonder how many in Mich share your feelings.


BB we have been paying to play in Ca for over 30 years. There has always been more than enough money to take care of the off road needs and STILL there has been enough money for the California gov to steal from. They usually take more than 50% of what was taken in. We pay $6.00 a day and $26.00 every 2 years for registration.. A lot of the trails in the national forrests here have been maintained by the 2 wheeled crowd for over 30 years. Trail maintainence was something the Enduro clubs did to get the "right" to hold a event once a year. Now its something over looked by everyone.

I still think you have to give some credit to the greenies inland closures. But those who scatter trash around, ride unmuffled and or with no safety gear arent helping our cause any.

Sorry for my rambling...and ...I wish I had more time to respond to you but Im headed to get carpal tunnel surgery in a few minutes. Its also going to take me a couple of weeks to be able to respond in here . Be patient and Ill be back to normal soon.

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07 Jetmoto 250 Sport
07 90cc Mini Ute
06 Jetmoto 200 Enduro
06 Jetmoto 200
06 Jetmoto 150
06 Jetmoto 125
04 Yamoto 150
01 KTM 400 EXC
92 WR 250
91 CR 250
88 YZ 80
85 CR 500
83 XL 600
82 XR 200
79 XR 75
79 Odyssey
73 Bultaco 360
71 Rickman Montessa 250
70 Rupp Enduro
69 Honda 50

As long as that's what they're using a baseline, then I wouldn't worry too much.

I'd believe about as much in that movie as I would in a Michael Moore "documentary".

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If it take more than 3 bolts to hold it on, it's probably crucial.