I know were you guys are coming from but in my opinion thats the parents job to raise them well.

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___________________________________________
07' YFZ 450 Special Ed.
03' YZ 85 -Sold
97' 350 Warrior

Yup.. Those of us that had good parents that made good decisions will agree with you on that one. Only troble is, if you look at some of the accident reports where kids get killed, you will find some disturbing facts revealed. Kids under 10 riding banshees, Kids not wearing safety gear, kids riding tow or three up... the list goes on. Where were the parents there? Were they making the choices that ultimately cost their kid their life? If they did, or were present, then there are some that would suggest that they were endangering or neglecting their child and should be punished for their actions. That is pretty stiff.
Just remember Francis, that just because two consenting "Adults" are able to produce a child, it does not mean they wake up one day and know everything, or are capable of making the right decisions all the time. Life is a learning experience that you learn as you go.. usually by making mistakes, learning from them, and not repeating them.
The argument that I am 12 and can handle a 450 is not a good argument. the fact is, in many parts of the country, you may be breaking several laws and putting your parents at risk of losing everythign they have worked their entire life for. They could end up in jail, have to pay huge fines, lose their jobs, house etc. All because the 12 year old wanted a cheap thrill. THAT does not make sense either. We say let the parent decide, but what we really hope for is that OK, let them decide how to raise them, but we pray they are smart enough to make the good decisions that too much of a good thing could hurt their kid, and they have the courage to tell their child NO, even if they know the kid is going to act like a kid and whine.. Definately not an ADULT reaction is it?

This debate is meaningless. It has always been this way, and will always be this way. You disagree with me, that is OK. I think parents deep down want to make good decisions, and if presented with the proper information will on most occasions, make the right decision. Trouble is they don't always have that information available.

I DO NOT however think the decision is the kid's to make. Under any situation! The responsibility ALWAYS comes back to the parent or responsible adult present. Kids view of the world rarely goes beyond 2 ft from their face. They only see the world as it affects them. They do not see anything beyond that or how they affect the world. That is what growing up is all about. Looking beyond one's personal self and seeing what effect their actions have on the people and surroundings around them.

The choice is yours to make... hopefully you will see beyond your nose...and find ways to make your very existance make a difference.

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

All that makes good sense to me.

I knew this kid when I was growing up. He was always on dirt bikes and could ride a wheelie till he was outta sight. He'd get drunk and ride wheelies on street bikes in the ditch passing cars. Everybody thought he was cool, but crazy. He lived his whole life like that. He drove cars the same way. Every decision he ever made was based on that philosophy. His parents weren't that way.... His brother wasn't that way. He was dead by 21. Wrapped his car around a tree when passing another car and almost hitting on-coming traffic. Was no surprise to anyone. The point is, if a kid will hammer on a banshee at 10 and the parents don't care, the kid will probably be dead by 21 for some other reason,,,, if not the banshee. Just banning the kid from riding the banshee doesn't get to the root of the problem. Most 10 yr olds are scared of banshees. The ones that aren't have issues that make them a hazard to society and themselves. If the kid I knew didn't get killed by 21, I figure he would have taken out some innocent people though the yrs and keep law enforcement really busy (or just be a burden on tax payers sitting in prison). His parents could have done something different, but if you knew them, you really wouldn't blame them too much. His brother turned out ok, btw.

Some of those numbers reported in the stats are injuries of kids that are bound to be injured in one way or another. Take the quads away, they'll just start jumping out of trees or something else so they can impress their friends (or whatever reason they do risky things). The problem is the parents or something genetic in some of the cases.

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If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

All the gear is restrictive and gets in the way . Knee braces are just one more thing to get used to. I still even do all my riding with a fanny pack full of tools.(even on a mx track) Got used to it when I rode all the enduros and now feel out of balance with out it. Agree about the addictive experience, been hooked on it my self since I was 11.

I cant believe in all your years of riding Mrs. DB never had a machine of her own? Wow!! Mrs MWQ has been riding since before we got married....might have even been our 4th or 5th date. It must be really neat to see Mrs DB having that much fun after all these years.

She has to be a tough one to have put up with you all these years. Good to hear she is doing so well. Great to have something to motivate her recovery too.

Age limits are....well just plain Dumb(current ones), but necessary at some point. Make's me happy that I didnt have a quad in my garage until my youngest was 16.

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07 Jetmoto 250 Sport
07 90cc Mini Ute
06 Jetmoto 200 Enduro
06 Jetmoto 200
06 Jetmoto 150
06 Jetmoto 125
04 Yamoto 150
01 KTM 400 EXC
92 WR 250
91 CR 250
88 YZ 80
85 CR 500
83 XL 600
82 XR 200
79 XR 75
79 Odyssey
73 Bultaco 360
71 Rickman Montessa 250
70 Rupp Enduro
69 Honda 50

Mrs DB has her own addictions. The first one is called Sewing. I have converted an entire room into the sewing-majhal. In it, you will find a folding cutting table, a corner sewing throne, large enough for three sewing machines, and two sergers. Now we are not talking just any machine either. She has those Real expensive embroidery machines, a Pfaff top of the line that we picked up from the factory in Germany mind you.. (Where she took the factory school) and two top of the line Sergers too from Huskvarna. Yup they make sewing machines now. She is an avowed fabric-a-haulic too and lives by the motto she who dies with the most cloth wins.. I could fill a shipping container with all the material she has. When I came back from Europe, her "stash" weighed in at around 1200 pounds and it has tripled since then. Her idea of fun is to go to all the sewing centers in a 50 mile radius looking for that special piece of cloth, or a sale on patterns. Sewing machines alone, she has nearly 20 grand invested in them... but I know better than to peep about it... I have my toys... so we are even. That 45K diesel pickup set me back a long ways so she has to catch up.... Plus, I am looking at a new 700 Raptor and a new Rhino too... Don't need them, but they look so nice all shiny and new in the show room. If you look on my page, you will see some of her work. Our grandson is dressed as Tigger for his first Holloween. He is 3 and a half now. About 6 months there.

I was a little worried when she said she wanted to buy her own and go riding with us "boys". We will see. I bought her all the fancy gear, got her new boots, her own PINK gear bag, jerseys, helmet.. the color matching gloves and goggles.. You name it... I am betting 50-50 odds that they get used one time.. then it is back to the sewing room.

Maybe she will find some inspiration I don't know... I am sure she just wants to keep tabs on us, and give me heck.. but that is why I married her 34 years ago. She did go with me when I was racing MX way back in the OLDEN days. And she used ot have a good time. Spent more time in the camper cooking, and scrubbing mud off the bikes, but she at least wanted to go the next week. Used to give me heck when I had to lay down and rest the kidneys. Remember those days when 7 inches of suspension was heaven? These kids with 14 inches of bounce have it made... I don't miss that one bit.

I get a twinge every time I walk past a dirt bike.. even looked really hard at one a month ago, but realistically, I don't have the legs for it any longer, and you can't sit on the seat and ride one of these any more. My tibia and Fibula just are not up to it. They hurt enough now just walking, I can't imagine what I'd be like after a session. Besides I don't have the lungs for it any more either. I'd be looking for the oxygen wagon.

YOu can also see my other vice on the page. It is a BUILT 03 RX7. Yes that would be a protoype single turbo setup. Aout 485 HP at rear wheels. Quick.

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Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

Edited: 03/27/2008 at 04:18 PM by Dragginbutt

Hey DB,

After reading several of your recent post, I remember what my father used to say:

Forty tells Twenty, but Twenty doesn't believe him. Then, Twenty suddenly finds himself forty. Finally, Twenty understands what Forty was trying to tell him almost twenty years ago... But then Forty turns Sixty and says nevermind what Forty said.... I don't know what he was thinking.




- One wise man that all the Forties and Twenties would be lucky to know.

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If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

I don't have all the answers.. but I try to help people expand their minds a bit. Like I said before, we are all so wrapped up in our own thing that we don't even try to understand the other guy's perspective. Hopefully if they can see the other side, and I see their's we can find common ground, and both of us are better for it.

Y'all take care and keep pushing forward. Together, we will find answers towards the common good. Seperately, we lose perspective and are bound to fail....

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

The ages, whether 20, 40, or 60, are mearly a conceptual metaphor identifying the fact that throughout the ages experienced men have tried to explain things to inexperienced men, but they just don't get it...

Thank you for proving this theory.

Edited: 03/30/2008 at 10:40 PM by Independence

Well said!

I've been thinking a lot about all the topics we've been discussing. I talk highly of a guy I know online that gives out gear to kids at riding areas and buys helmets for people that can't afford them. I learned that the dealer here automatically gives everyone a helmet with each purchase (you pay for it, you just don't know you do ). I've been trying to put myself in everyone's position and understand their way of thinking, and I've learned a lot from doing that. But I also get stressed out a lot from doing that because I know some people just aren't happy unless they can bend the will of the world to their way of thinking (ie. radical muslims, door-to-door Christians, etc,,, to say the least). Some people think they know it all, or at least they think they know more than some others and they use every method in their power to meddle in other's affairs when in fact its none of their business. Those are the people I can't understand.

Hey Gary, seriously, what do you think of the parents that ended up letting their child die because it was against their religion to take her to the doctor? Its in the news now. She had type I diabetes and didn't get the insulin she needed because her parents believed God would heal her. I'm not sure what to make of it.... I want to say its none of my business, but the public seems to be making a big deal out of it. I guess if she was my friend, I might have been angry. If she was my relative, I might have been angry. But I don't know her and it seems like the parents might have a right to choose the medical care they and their kids get. For instance, I don't want the public dictating to me I have to take drugs or surgery when I might choose some other method of healing. Too many times western medicine is wrong and is constantly being revisied.... Even JAMA said doctors are the 3rd leading cause of death in the US. Not very comforting to know that. JAMA is about as respected as it gets! Should I be required by law to take my kids to a person that is the 3rd leading cause of death? How should I think on this subject?

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If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

I don't know Randy... That is a rough one. What I think is right in my mind may not always be the right answer. Trying to compare this situation to the decision to not wear a helmet for example is an unfair comparison.

The decision the parents you mention made has a pretty high probability that something bad is going to happen. Where the helmet question or age of a child riding a full sized machine is more of a potential outcome. Being a Type 1 diabetic myself, I know that the tests that were perfomed are pretty conclusive.

What you are trying to get me to say is that it is the parent's decision, and although I might think that way in some cases, I can't say that I believe that is the case all the time. I believe the court system has much more wisdom in this regard than I do, and must defer to the local authorities to act as an advocate for the child. Again that would depend on local conditions and not an all or nothing interpretation.

I have great respect for the family's religious beliefs and convictions, but I have to say I can't really put myself in their shoes because I am weaker in that regard than they are... I can sure admire their stong faith, but I doubt I could be strong enough to come to the same conclusion. My only response would be to pray for them both. The parents, and the child.. and hope they both find peace.

My age has taught me that there are subjects that will get you in a fight quicker than anything. One, don't discuss a person's religious beliefs, 2) don't criticise a person's Mother or Spouse, and 3) Dont ever damage another man's vehicle.

I think this subject crosses multiple lines... Sorry if that wasn't the answer you were looking for... I am not claiming to be a higher power.

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

Edited: 03/31/2008 at 11:02 AM by Dragginbutt

I just wanted your sagely input because I value it, not because I'm trying to practice my verbal judo on you, lol. I honestly wasn't trying to lead you to say one thing or another, its just been on my mind for a few days to ask you and I finally saw an opportunity and the same time that I remembered.

Yeah, I agree it doesn't directly correlate to the helmet or age limit situation, although there may be some similarities. I also agree that Type I diabetes is has a pretty clear-cut cause and has clear-cut management routines, unlike,,, say, heart disease treated with cholesterol lowering drugs.

That situation reminds me of the joke I heard as a kid. There was a flood and a boat came by and warned a man to get in the boat. He said, "God's going to take care of me!". So the boat went on. Later, the man is standing on his roof and the boat came back and told him to get in. The man said, "God's going to take care of me!" So the boat went on. Later, the man is at the top of a tall tree. A helicopter came by and said, "Grab the rope!". The man said, "God's going to take care of me!" Well, the man drowns and ends up in heaven and asks God why he didn't save him. God said, "I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!!!"

It seems pretty obvious to me that God sent boats and helicopters to the parents of the girl that died, but I guess it wasn't so obvious to them. I think the best thing that came from this discussion is, "My only response would be to pray for them both. The parents, and the child.. and hope they both find peace." That's all I really want. But I don't think the public will grant them peace. I think they require revenge for something that was not so much stolen from them, but was stolen more from the parents. So, not only have the parents lost a daughter, they will inherit the wrath of a closed-minded public. A very depressing situation.... and I'm not exactly sure what's right, but I'm glad you took the time to opine.

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If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

I've run accross a few like that in my travels too. I believe that no matter what anyone else says, or what happens to the parents, they will be stronger for it. It is easy for us to sit in judgement, but hard for us to fathom what went through their hearts and minds as they watched the most precious gift they have ever had whither away slowly. Nothing man or the courts can do is going to make it easier, or punish them any harder than what they have already suffered. To us it is but a moment in time.. or an article on the evening news... to them it was their world torn in two.

I just hope that this experience has made their bond stronger in ways that we can't ever imagine. The real tragedy would be for the parents to second guess their decisions, and it drive a wedge between them. In this case, if I were a friend, or family, I would hope they would offer strength and support... Not criticism and unbelief...

I think that is what makes humans different than animals. We have the ability to exercise compassion and feel genuine empathy towards the parents. I think for this reason, as we have discussed before, I would not be so quick to judge parents whose child gets hurt or kiled on an ATV either. You have to look at the situation, and judge each case accordingly.

True neglect will without a doubt make itself known. Mistakes in judgement are harder to deal with, and although I do believe some form of consequence may be in order, I do not believe throwing them in jail is the answer either.

This thread started with the question regarding size versus age as stated in the CPSC guidelines. To me, I believe they have a lot of merit if they are implimented properly. And when I say that, I believe for novice riders, they do a very good job of categorizing new rider abilities and may for obvious reasons err on the safe side.

I have criticised them for two reasons.

1), there is no formal means for riders to demonstrate ability, and therefor move up in class of machine without purely aging in years.

2), is the size gap for the 12 to 16 age group.

At no time will a child's skill develpment grow at a faster pace. With puberty, physical size and strength grow by leaps and bounds, and the average pre-teen, to 16 will actually be placed in a higher risk category because they are in some cases FORCED to ride larger machines because the mini's do not fit their physical size requirements.

Case in point, I have a 12 year old that is almost 6 ft tall. Put him on an average mini, and his knees end up in his chest when he sits on his machine. Not a safe circumstance by any means.

The manufacturers need to build a bridge class chassis with smaller motors to better fit them.

I also believe that the 12 to 16 year age group could safely handle up to a 250 CC machine. I have held impromptu surveys in the past, and this seems to be a recurring theme.

Most parents I speak with feel that if their child were able to legally get on a 250, they would buy one in a heart beat instead of putting their child on a much larger machine.

So in this case, I think the parent might be the best judge of their child's state of skills development. But I want to re-emphasize that there has to be a starting point, and that I do NOT advocate placing a total novice on one of these. A 250 powerplant can produce some impressive numbers in the power range, and would without a doubt be way to far out of a novices realm of skill.

Like it or not parents, when you commit to allowing a child to become an ATV rider, there should be a realization on your part that you will be trading machines on a regular basis as they grow. Like a bicycle, you have to buy them to fit the child in different stages of their learning curve and growth cycles. Just like it would be dangerous to put a 6 year old on a 26 inch mountain bike, it would be dangerous to put a 10 year old on a 350 or larger. If you can't afford it, then just say NO.

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

Edited: 03/31/2008 at 05:57 PM by Dragginbutt

You nailed it! (Wish I could write like that).




A relative is the one that called 911 in the first place... So, I doubt they will be very supportive, unfortunately. Their faith will be tried and over the coming years they may even lose their faith. This is starting to remind me a bit of the story of Job.




Yes, it would almost be like if my car gets stolen and they throw me in jail for leaving the keys in it.




Yes, I agree with all that. The biggest problem I have with small quads is the way they handle. The only chassis designed properly is the R450 and maybe KTM's new quad. All the rest are compromises in design and they get worse as cc's goes down. Put a 100cc engine in the 450 frame and it would be the safest quad around.

Check this out http://forums.atvconnection.co...did=539973&startpage=1 It has a happy ending.

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If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

I could go for that.. It would keep the kids off the big bore quads while providing a safe machine that is properly sized for their body. Believe me, they will have fun on it no matter what size the motor. I believe one of the major flaws with the mini's in particular is the narrow tread width. If they would just make them 2 inches wider, the stability would jump by leaps and bounds. That is why I always recommend to parents that they put on spacers to widen the mini's. Sure they will have ot spend a few bucks, but the safety margin is greatly enhanced. And that is what it is all about anyway. The original though process was based on being able to throw the machine in the back of a pickup, or family station wagon. That is old school. WIth the power and engine size wars that is going on today, they NEED to be wider just to maintain some semblance of sanity.

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

I don't think it would cost much more for the manufacturers to just make them wider to begin with. For a quad with a 30 inch seat height, it should have just short of 50 inches in the front.... or 47 minimum. And the wheelbase should be just long enough so all 4 wheels don't make a square. That's a pretty stable and fun chassis. I suppose all the numbers are proportional, so a quad with a 15 inch seat height would be 25 inches wide and so on. Otherwise they are pretty top heavy and make it easy to bicycle in turns.

I know if I was a kid, I would want something stable and something closer to my own body weight so I could throw it around a little. That's why I like the 230s, it weighs only 315lb with a full tank. And one of these days I'd like to get the weight down with an aluminum frame. I could bunny hop over logs then.

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If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain