Obviously, you don't recognize a rhetorical question when presented with one. As such, I'll refrain from this figure of speech.


Are these "FIVE PREVENTABLE DEATHS" of children between the ages of 10 and 14 on an ATV close enough for you to care?

Georgia ATV Accident Driver Faces 5 Homicide Charges
Ambrose, GA

A woman whose car rammed into an all-terrain vehicle near Ambrose, Georgia, laden with six young people, was charged with five counts of homicide, as the community grieved for the five children who died. Authorities say the automobile driver, crossed the center line about 9 PM Saturday evening before hitting a 4-wheeler, carrying 6 children, but designed to carry one adult operator and no passengers.

Besides the five homicide charges, the driver was also charged with DUI, reckless driving and driving on the wrong side of the road.

At the time of the collision, the adult sized ATV was being driven by a teenager celebrating her 14th birthday. She had been taking her five friends for a ride on the family ATV when the accident occurred.

Killed, along with the 14-year-old ATV driver, were: an 11-year-old boy and his 13-year-old sister, an unrelated 13-year-old girl; and an unrelated 10-year-old girl. A sixth young person, a 13-year-old girl, was in critical condition as of this report.

The driver of the car that struck the ATV and her two passengers were not seriously injured; although she was transported to a local hospital for treatment. Upon release from the hospital, the driver was taken into custody and lodged in the county jail.

A spokesman for the Georgia Department of Public Safety stated: "This off-road vehicle was built for one adult rider. Additionally, none of the youngsters was wearing a helmet and the 14-year-old girl should not have been driving the vehicle at all; much less on a public road."


I understand you have no concerns for the death of a child not your own (see quote above), but the 261 lives cut short over a period of just ONE YEAR, were sadly ALL under the age of 16. By the way, who's asking you to give up your freedoms?


So, in your opinion Randy, children have a right to die in such a hideous manner as described above?

One question: How is the "Freedom of our great County" and this forum topic even remotely linked?
"Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"


Unfortunately, the rules of this website prohibit me from answering your question directly.

Edited: 02/16/2008 at 08:57 PM by Independence

Am I expected to? (<--- Is that a rhetorical question?). Only I know the answer.



Is that rhetorical too??? Nevermind, I'll answer it anyway. Ummm... No.

Its a tragic and very horrible thing for those involved, but I'm not involved. If I involved myself in every little mishap in the world I would be a basket case strung out on antidepressants.

What about all the deaths of due to alcohol? I don't see any reply to my comment about alcohol. Don't you mourn for these people who VASTLY outnumber any ATV accident? Shouldn't you be after a bigger piece of the pie? Why are you harping about 5 people here GA? They are no closer to me than someone living on the moon. After all, I never heard about it until I read about it here.




So,,, what do you want me to say??? It was the driver of the ATV at fault? Because there were too many people on the quad, the gravitational forces of all that mass must have pulled the car across the centerline and right into them. Oh, and I'm sure helmets would have saved everyone of them from getting run over. As a matter of fact, they could have been just walking down the road in a tight grouping and have been hit in the same way with the same outcome. What does this have to do with ATV safety???

I'm not saying ATV's should be on the road. I'm not recommending people ride with 6 people on their quads. I'm not suggesting you're better off w/o a helmet. I AM saying I don't want a law requiring me to wear a helmet and forbiding me from giving my friends rides or whatever other laws you have in mind for me that affects only me and my consenting friends. If I choose to ride w/o a helmet, its no skin off your nose. None of your business. If me and my girlfriend decide we want to ride doggie style thru the woodland trails, that's also none of your business. And because somebody somewhere in GA can't keep their car in their own lane,,, you're saying I can't ride w/o a helmet or give my girlfriend a ride. I'm missing the connection.




Where did I say I have no concerns for the death of a child or anyone else? Its a shameful and tragic thing to be mangled in an accident. I hope I never have to endure seeing anyone in such an ordeal. I can barely deal with an animal that has been hit by a car in front of the house,,, nevermind a person. I wish everyone could just ride safely and freely and it be a perfect world. But, sadly, that's not the case.

I wish people didn't have to go to war and take shrapnel and bullets and lose limbs and lives for the sake of freedom. How many lives are being lost in Iraq in a yr? What are they fighting for? Granted, they are a little older than 16...




Well,,, raiderfan76 said, "there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement". To which I replied, "Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!" And you quoted me and started on about preventable deaths and such. So, I concluded you are in favor of requiring me to wear a helmet by law. Therefore, YOU are taking my freedoms by being a member of the voting public and having that mindset. Am I wrong?



Having the right to do anything is a matter of law. Since someone is being charged with homicide, I gather they did not have the right to die like that. My opinion has nothing to do with it. However, I did not want them to die. I wanted them to carry on having fun and celebrating a birthday. But if you're asking me to strap a helmet on everytime I ride across the yard because some goofy woman can't drive a car... my reply would REALLY be something to violate forum rules!





Its always good to stay on topic! Freedom and safety go hand-in-hand (read my siggy). Anytime anyone starts carrying on about being "safe", I can be alarmed that my liberties are in peril! And there's always some "pest" crawling out of the crevices of the net crying about defending our liberties and freedom to be as "stupid" (they say) as we want, so long as we don't hurt anyone else. This thread is no different.

Actually, the thread should be titled, "What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries w/o restricting personal liberties?"

Make ATVs safer. That works. It doesn't restrict any of my liberites.
Take money off the price of a quad for a training course. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
Open up a privately funded ATV training school and make deals with neighborhood business to give incentives to riders to take the class. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.
Maybe even hand out $5 to every rider you see with a helmet. Works too. Doesn't restrict my liberties.

On the other hand, requiring helmets might save a life or two here n there, but the guys that have the accidents don't pay much attention to rules anyway... Obviously. Same with riding double, triple, etc. The party of 6 was breaking the law several times over and still got killed. So, what good was the law?



Well, its either none of your business or you are mine and Joe's guardian angel.

Now,,, I've answered every question I can find in your reply. Why won't you answer more of mine? Why do you just pick n choose which statements to reply to? I want to know why you've singled out ATV's when there are clearly more people dying from other things in the world and ATVs remain relatively insignificant. The reason is not to lead us off topic because my argument is weak, its because once I establish a greater evil with less legal restrictions, the helmet law argument won't hold water. Smoking is legal and kills MANY more people. Alcohol is legal and kills MANY more people. ATVs hardly kill anyone. And aside from you, I haven't heard of a single death since the 80's when trikes were always on the news. And aside from this website, I don't know a single soul that wears a helmet or even hesitates to ride double. And when I talk to them about it, they don't understand why anyone would care if they wear a helmet or not. ... And that's the way I feel too. Call me stupid, I don't care, but I'm defending my right to be "stupid". Was Evil Knievel stupid? He may have worn a helmet, but consider the risks he took. And the crowd cheered him on for yrs and yrs. How about Matt Coulter, the Kangaroo Kid? Is he stupid too? The crowd sure does love stupid then. It seems the more risks you take, the bigger the crowd gets and the more they want to wear a t-shirt with the "idiot's" name on it. Look how big NASCAR has become. People actually can't wait to see an accident. Its almost like the Roman coliseum in modern times. Safety??? What safety? People don't want safety, they want thrills,,, and thrills don't come from a feeling of security. If they wanted to see safety, ping pong would be the most popular sport on TV instead of NASCAR and football.

-------------------------
If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

Randy, you need to read more than the highlighted text.



However, I do strongly support enforcement of EXISTING laws as they apply to reckless and/or negligent operation of ATVs.


Here's where:




Now, I'll leave you to reconsider the remainder of your most recent post.

Edited: 02/17/2008 at 10:16 AM by ATV Connection Moderator

Mike (I presume?),,, I did. Several times. What are you getting at?




When did you say this??? You're quoting your current message??? Anyway, since you are not promoting the idea of new laws, what exactly are you promoting?




Sounds ok to me as long as they aren't ridiculous laws that take away my freedom to have fun because someone is affaid I'll hurt myself.

Staying off the road is a fair idea. ATVs are not designed for highway use. However, I do feel I could spend the rest of my life riding up n down the road and not ever be in an incident other than a run in with the police. But I can see the logic to the law nonetheless. And I can really live without a bunch of banshees draggin up n down the road in front of my house.

As far as I know, its legal to let your 13 yr old drive the car around the yard. Although I've never looked into it for sure.... People do it anyway. And it sounds like a reasonable thing to do, so long as they stay off public areas like roads and such. Since someone under 16 isn't allowed to drive a car on public areas, it stands to reason that they shouldn't be allowed to drive an ATV on public areas. But I'm not sure that is a law I want. Many of my friends have kids in the 12-13 range and they ride 150-250cc quads on the mountain trails and do quite well. Of course they are always supervised and I guarantee you their parents love them more than the state ever could. Honestly,,, I'm not sure what sort of legislation should be on the books concerning kids. I have to think about it some more. And we should discuss it more.




Umm... That's a question. Not a statement. You're twisting my comments to make it sound like I wish harm to kids in an effort to make me out to be some sort of monster. But in reality, you nor anyone else on this board will shed a tear if any of my kids or my friend's kids end up hurt. What did you do for the funeral of the 6 kids in Ambrose??? Probably the same thing I did for them.



What's that supposed to mean? Furthermore, you're picking and choosing still. You still won't address many of my points. This leaves me with little option than to believe you are just like a stereotypical politician who panders for public support by spinning and dodging questions... whom has his own interests in mind and not those of the public at large. I don't know what else to make of it... I'm still not even clear where you stand and many issues...



"Edited: 02/17/2008 at 11:16 AM by ATV Connection Moderator" <--- Can't you make your point without breaking rules? The best I can figure,,, you either posted something copyrighted or you're using this webspace to promote your business. And in either of those cases, I can't figure out how my death would be of any concern to you.


PS. Here's another tree for you to start barking up. "8 dead in illegal drag race in Maryland" http://www.latimes.com/news/na...7feb17,0,6561937.story
Just think how tragic it would have been if all those spectators had been sitting on ATVs instead of just standing around.
According to that article, 100 people die every year just in California alone! The nationwide figure has got to be up in the 1000's. And that's just illegal street racing.

-------------------------
If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

What it means is that you should reconsider the remainder of your recent post.

The reason I pick and choose, and won't address many of your points, is because much of what you write makes little sense. And, that's being polite.


Then do your homework and read more than just a couple of post before assuming that we are all here to push for more laws and restrictions. We're not.


Well, you figured wrong in both your assumptions.

And, now that you bring the subject up, your death is of no particular concern to me.

However, what does concern me are the over 250 preventable deaths of children annually, while engaged in a recreational activity. I, as an American Citizen choose to make it my concern, for one simple reason: 'Because it's the right thing to do!'

I chose this one area as it's where I can, and have, made a difference the last few years.


Good point. Especially for use in comparison of the two activities.

A. Illegal Drag Racing B. Recreational ATV Riding

1.
A. Illegal in all 50 states. B. Regulated, but legal in all 50 states.

2.
A. Engaged in by persons 16 to 34 YOA. B. Engaged in by all ages.

3.
A. Laws against are agressively enforced. B. Enforcement rare, except post traumatic event.

4.
A. Reckless or Negligent MV operation is generally viewed as a crime. B. Reckless or Negligent ATV operation is generally viewed as acceptable.

It's here where we are promoting change as a way of reducing the number of deaths and serious injuries.

Edited: 02/17/2008 at 08:53 PM by Independence

In what regard?



So, if I had mud on my face, you wouldn't tell me? What makes little sense? If you said something that didn't make sense, I would challenge it... Like I'm doing now.

Rather, I suppose you are NOT resonding to the points that DO make sense... And you ARE responding only to the points you think you can WIN. Quite the opposite of what you just said.




As I said before... raiderfan76 said, "there need to be stiffer helmet and bodyear laws, also driver and rider age enforcement". To which I replied, "Not so! There needs to be LESS laws and more personal responsibility for their own choices!" And you quoted me and started this discussion.

I did a little homework and it appears to me you are for helmet laws... and other laws like that. So, you're saying I'm wrong? You are against helmet laws?



That's great! That's the way it should be.



We all have our passions. Yours sound very admirable. I'm sure your community is very glad to have you.



Do you know the % of all auto accidents in terms of total drivers? How does that % compare to the % of ATV accidents in terms of total ATV drivers? Maybe we should use "deaths" because most ATV accidents are not reported. Only some car accidents are not reported.

If the % of auto accidents is higher, that means 3. aggressive enforcemnet doesn't work and 4. Reckless or Negligent ATV operation is of no great concern to warrant aggressive legal action.

-------------------------
If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. - Mark Twain

Hey DB and 440,

Here's the follow up on the case reported in SW Ohio last week.

*****************************************************

Man Sentenced For ATV Crash That Killed 10-Year-Old Girl
Lebanon, OH
A man charged with vehicular homicide after an ATV accident will spend 90 days in jail. A Warren County judge also sentenced him to pay a $1,000 fine, serve 200 hours community service, as well as five years probation. Police reports said the 21-year-old man was giving several children a ride on an ATV during a church picnic when it tipped, killing a 10-year-old girl.

******************************************************
From what I heard from local rescuers, they prosecuted this case as it was apparent that he knew what he was doing was unsafe, and the outcome of his actions was the death of the child. The only thing that kept him from facing more serious charges was that the family is deeply religious and had "forgiven" him for his actions. So, it appears the Prosecutor and the Judge went along with the wishes of the family by not incarcerating him longer, while still providing some consequence for his deliberate actions.

Edited: 02/17/2008 at 10:33 PM by Independence

Well its great to see that things are moving forward in a mostly positive manner.

Sorry I am not able to post more often but have just been swamped at work etc.

I got an idea from reading some of the recent posts in what effect we may have if we were to present the more popular opinions on safety from this tread on other forums that may not exactly share our thoughts on safety.

I know that some sites are 100% about incresing membership only for the benefit of raising funds thru various advertising etc, and there are also countless small sites that put "cool" above all else, and the visitors of both types could benefit from a dose of SAFETY.

There may be resistance at some places, but I doubt there will be too much if its handled properly, and we dont appear as a bunch of pushers etc. I think just getting the topic discussed at other places would be a major benefit as it will help others who were looking for info, but did not find this thread etc.

What ya think?

-------------------------
AKA 440EX4ME
*************
"stupid is as stupid does"

offroadnj.com


Join others in finding places to ride and get involved protecting your right to ride in NJ!!
**************

Rip- ExLosers.com -Rip

************

Its always a good idea to pass on an idea or message.Whether or not it is accepted or adhered to makes no real difference and should not be considered as a factor determining whether or not it is done. Seeds on the ground so to speak.
What absolutely has to be done is to put the idea in a brief, concise, easy to understand positive format. 1000 words condeming and point fingers will do no good. 1000 words talking of idiots and criminals will do no good. 1000 words demanding jail time and punishment will do nothing positive.
If you had to boil down one year of input into 250 words of wisdom and encouragement what would they be? Its a huge task............Tass

I agree with you there... I think all of us need ot be cognizant of what we say and do. There are a lot of people out there that would just as soon see us all go away. It has happened once in my lifetime.. and I have to say that is has the same feeling today. One thing that has changed however is that we have a lot more voices, and a lot more owners of ATV these days. And we vote. That more than anything holds a lot of sway. Ultimately the elected leaders will decide just what we can and cannot do. SO maintaining an open dialog with them is paramount. One that is honest and open, not twisting the facts like the Green eco guys want to do all the time. There are always two sides to every story, and we have to make sure our legislators get both sides of the story. It only takes one elected official with a false opinion of us to make our lives miserable.
We have tried going the self policing route and it has been a total failure because human nature is that we do not want anyone telling us what we can and cannot do. Dealing with the pure ignorate is a useless cause too. MY focus, and what has always been my focus... is to make sure that those individuals who do take teh time to research and ask the right questions are able to find the data they need to educate themselves. THAT is where our sport has not done a significant job. There is tons of stuff out there available. Go to your local Honda dealer and pick up a ton of free printed infomation paid for my HONDA. The problem is that you can had every parent customer all the pamphlets in the world but you can't make them read them... IF ANYTHING we can do education wise, it would be to find a way to MAKE them read the information and sign a statement that they have read it and understand the information... It would be a start.

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

Edited: 02/24/2008 at 01:49 PM by Dragginbutt

Well DB, it looks as if someone is listening in NY. This just came through.

*****************************************

NY BILL CALLS FOR ATV SAFETY CLASSES
Posted at: 02/25/2008 05:30:36 PM

ALBANY - There's a bill on the table that would require anyone who buys an ATV to take a safety course.

News of the legislation comes two days after a man died in an ATV accident in Washington County.

Safety courses already exist in the area, but they aren't mandatory. That's what an off road vehicle expert and a lobbyist want to change.

"The keys to these machines do not come with common sense and that is what gets these guys in trouble," said Bob Ski, director of the Power Sport Vehicles Association.

Ski says the ATV Safety Institute offers free safety courses. In fact, you can actually make money by taking a course.

"Absolutely, through the ASI safety training, $100 dollar bonus just for going and learning how to ride one of these machines properly," Ski said.

The problem is the courses aren't mandatory. So a lot people don't register.

But Ski, with the help of lobbyist Chris DelGiudice, hopes to change that with a bill that would make safety courses mandatory.

"Courses are already in place for snowmobile and Jet Ski riders. Nothing for ATVs. So we're looking to add some language in the bill that would take a look at the feasibility of how much that would cost and if this would work for riders in the state," DelGiudice said.

Two days ago a 24-year-old died after his ATV crashed in Salem. State police say he wasn't wearing a helmet

"These are the common sense items that if we could drive home that'll save a lot more injuries from happening," Ski said.

Some things the safety course would touch on include:

* Always wear a helmet and protective gear.
* Never ride an ATV on public roads or highways.
* Never operate a single seat ATV with a passenger.
* Stay away from alcohol and/or drugs before driving.
* Make sure the machine is right for your age and size.

"Winter is coming to a close. So we want to gear up for the warmer weather when ATV riders become more active again," DelGiudice said.

The bill also calls for an ATV economic impact study and research on how ATVs affect the environment in New York.

*****************************************

Edited: 02/25/2008 at 11:22 PM by Independence

I swear they are going to find a way to legislate common sense if it kills us... You watch...

-------------------------
Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

Good Luck with that.....

-------------------------
07 Jetmoto 250 Sport
07 90cc Mini Ute
06 Jetmoto 200 Enduro
06 Jetmoto 200
06 Jetmoto 150
06 Jetmoto 125
04 Yamoto 150
01 KTM 400 EXC
92 WR 250
91 CR 250
88 YZ 80
85 CR 500
83 XL 600
82 XR 200
79 XR 75
79 Odyssey
73 Bultaco 360
71 Rickman Montessa 250
70 Rupp Enduro
69 Honda 50

Hey DB,

No chance of this ever happening. Especially when KNUCKLEHEADS like this one still have the capacity to reproduce!

ARREST MADE IN CONNECTION WITH FATAL NY SNOWMOBILE ACCIDENT

Edited: 02/26/2008 at 11:21 PM by Independence