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Originally posted by: squeege

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Originally posted by: 440EX026
Ok it seems many would agree that stupid = getting into trouble or hurt etc, but here is a little debate to this (though I agree to a point also) how do you describe or account for all the good riders who dont kill themselves who are as Forrest Gump would say "not a smart man".

Lets face it you dont have to spend 8+ years doing time to get your masters degree to operate an atv, and most of those who do seem to end up being injured are not old enough anyhow, BUT many of those who are of age, and those who are still under the guardianship of their parents etc who get into trouble seem to have a gapping hole right where all the time should have been spent learning about what they were getting into, and the safe and proper ways to use it.

I applaud those who have taken the time to pass the training instructor licence or training etc (like deanz400), and I have told many people to utilize their services as from what I have learned about the courses there is somethng to be learned by everyone (even the instructors learned a lot of those I know), and is a real must for any new riders, or their parents.

I had a friend who recently purchased an atv, and a MC for his daughter and son (7 and 4) and beyond the countless hours of info he was forced to take in he was pushed to their taking the course together, and trust me its not easy trying to pursuade or explain to a guy in his early 30's that currently rides a street bike, previously rode many miles on a dirt bike, and even put in a couple hours on an atv that he has to take the time and bring his kids and himself to a course. I hope enough of my bs sank in that he does it.

Even if you dont agree with OFC on his basic opinion on letting natural selection run its course in our sport, this is basically what seems to have been happening, and may also be a large part of why we are seeing so much resistance to our sport on all levels.

As much as I dont like to see uncle sam taken advantage of by his willingness to protect those described earlier etc I also dont expect him to stop his normal ways to help us out etc, and just like no one would have ever believed you wouldnt be able to smoke anyware you like, or would be issued summons's for not wearing a seatbelt, and a hundred more laws that have been smuggled into our system to "protect us" dont think sending the atv the way of the three wheeler isnt a possiblility either.

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440EX026......thanks for the big RED ALERT to all atv riders....or not

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Well wich is it?

Seriously we have to come up with some solid things beyond just plain old "stupid".

I see some things so far that look good (as far as potential causes to prevent) and even a couple ways to help prevent serious or fatal injury like approved training.

Also there have been some others like requiring licensing, but we see how well that works for auto's and MC's.

What worries me is how our entire sport will be effected by the worse case scenerio of going the path of the three wheelers, or even the lessor one of having stringent testing and age limits combined with all kinds of insane liabilities like what has happend to the jet ski industry.

Since I mentioned jet skis then I guess I also have to compare how this group got all kinds of grief when the mfg's made them easy and less intimidating and caused new unit sales to go thru the roof. I have to say it is nice not to have to contend with all the extra traffic like in the 90's, but because of similar problems to what we are seeing now in our sport there are many less places to use them, and more restrictions (many either most likely illegal or at least discriminatory) than I could even take a count of.

We got us a fight, and trying to ignore it in order to somehow keep it quiet isnt working.


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AKA 440EX4ME
*************
"stupid is as stupid does"

offroadnj.com


Join others in finding places to ride and get involved protecting your right to ride in NJ!!
**************

Rip- ExLosers.com -Rip

************

As a new rider with two young boys on quads, I would be curious to know specifics on these deaths. How many had no helmet? How many were youngsters riding full size quads? How many were stunt junkies jumping buses?

Its too easy to make blanket statements about what to do to help increase safety when there is scant details of what is actually causing these deaths.


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Honda 400ex
Honda 250 ex
Honda 25ex

hmm. i would say having one of them learning keys would be a good thing on atvs as on PWC's but if the person chooses a wrong path and is limited on their power its potentially more dangerous. How do you educate someone on their cababilities and their machines capabilities in varied terrain without a lil trial and error? No one could have ever convinced me you can ride up veritical rock faces on a motorcycle... till i seen it done. nor would one look at many hills i climb or traverse and think that is possible. I grant basic safty instruction is a must. I would hope it comes from peers and not mandated by a governing body is all. personal responsibility goes a long ways.

red hornet. i would say 99% of ATV deaths are from people riding outside their limits and doing things they chose to do that they shoulnd't be doing.

Locally last weekend someone launched their atv off a logging road and into a tree and died. why? rider chose to ride faster than their abilities would allow. Is that the states problem? Is it the atv manufacturers problem? governments? NO NO NO

-------------------------
"Thats a want, Not a Need"

Here's one effort to point out stupidity in as nice as way as possible when it is witnessed. The WI DNR has a "Trail Ambassador" program. I don't know a whole lot about it, but there was a call for volunteers at our last club meeting.

You go through training to become a certified ATV Safety Instructor, and a second 4-hour session on how to handle different situations on the trail. The DNR reimburses your club for the hours you spend on patrol.

At our club meeting, the guy calling for volunteers emphasized a positive approach when dealing with ignorance on the trail. Instead of "don't do that," he suggested a "do this" scenario.

It might save a couple of lives, and you can accomplish something while enjoying the trails.

-------------------------
AC 400 manual
Bombardier Rally
Ski Doo 440 Touring LE
Ski Doo 380 Touring
Yamaha Ovation

Here is a link which contains results of a statistical study done by a professional researcher. It is about ATV accident rates compared to the accident rates of other sports or recreational activities:

http://www.heideninc.com/downloads/CPSC_ATV_hearing.pdf

It seems to indicate that ATVs are not so bad after all. According to this; vollyball is just as likely to put you in the emergency room as ATV riding.



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The term "Global Warming Scientist" is an oxymoron.

Edited: 01/04/2007 at 01:10 PM by SawHugger

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Originally posted by: way2fst
i didnt buy my quad new, can i still get the $100 for takin the course?

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Nope. Only to the original purchaser. The manufacturer (or maybe the dealer) reports to ASI the machine and your information.

The problem around here is the absence of Instructors. I ended up going to the next Instructor south of me. Local instructor had a waiting list with no dates even scheduled. I would probably be still waiting 1.5 years later. The instructor was nice but she lacked knowledge of her loaner machines' (250EX) controls.

Up in the S.F. Bay Area, or East Bay Area (Dublin, CA, etc.) there's only one trainer. For a few million people. The waiting list is over a year.

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2003 Yamaha Warrior
2004 F-150 4.6/SC/SB (for work and play)

Working for a living is a highly overrated way to spend your time. - MWQ

...I think you're better off getting advice from someone who doesn't have to wait for the battery to charge before they can ride. -- Scootergptx

Emergency Room Injuries per 100,000 Participants*
Football 2,292
Basketball 2,051
Wrestling 1,960
Boxing 1,777
Soccer 1,439
Baseball 995
Skateboarding 982
Bicycle Riding 979
Softball 897
Ice Hockey 879
Snowboarding 815
Roller Skating 596
Skiing 520
Snowmobiling 509
Martial Arts 496
Volleyball 476
ATVs 472
Racquetball 338
Scooter Riding 326
In-Line Roller Skating 280
Ice/Figure Skating 271
Roller Hockey 255
Weightlifting 253
Swimming (Heiden) 235
Tennis 221
Paintball 190
Fishing 144
Water Skiing 132
Swimming (CPSC) 128
Golf 123
Archery 83
Fencing 67
Exercising w/ Equipment 62
Scuba Diving 58
Bowling 39
Horseshoe Pitching 32
Badminton 30
Table Tennis 17
Billiards/Pool 12
Camping 6
......................................................
Activity 100,000 Participants
Motor Vehicles 993
Passenger Cars 604
ATVs 488

With all the safety that goes into cars.. Pretty fascinating that idiots on atvs get injured less


2002 Fatality Risk Estimates Per 100,000 Participants
Motor Vehicles 14.9
Passenger Cars 7.1
ATVs 2.7

also fascinating your almost 3 times more likely to die in a car. hmm.

-------------------------
"Thats a want, Not a Need"


Edited: 01/04/2007 at 01:30 PM by OneFlyCowboy

Quote

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Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior

Quote

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Originally posted by: way2fst
i didnt buy my quad new, can i still get the $100 for takin the course?

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Nope. Only to the original purchaser. The manufacturer (or maybe the dealer) reports to ASI the machine and your information.

The problem around here is the absence of Instructors. I ended up going to the next Instructor south of me. Local instructor had a waiting list with no dates even scheduled. I would probably be still waiting 1.5 years later. The instructor was nice but she lacked knowledge of her loaner machines' (250EX) controls.

Up in the S.F. Bay Area, or East Bay Area (Dublin, CA, etc.) there's only one trainer. For a few million people. The waiting list is over a year.

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Hmm.. can a guy make decent coin bein a ATV safety instructor?

-------------------------
"Thats a want, Not a Need"

im 16 and i learn from my dad how to ride he rode atv,dirtbikes,sportsbikes.
he showed me the right way to ride and got me a helmet and boots to ride.
also i lreaned to ride were the are was no quads for miles on a beach after riding at the beach for 6 months we found a place to ride were their is 40 quads and 20 dirt bikes out of the 60 riding 10-20 have no helmet the people without them are the ages of 18-22 their was many crashs thank god no injurys but they crash by racing showing off or going up near vertical hills that 30ft tall.

OFC if your really interested contact ASI they are always looking for more instructors ,I average about 4 classes during the year ,It's a little ridiculas to try and geta a class together and have 7 out of 8 Bail on you . Were supposed to have a minumum of 2 students ,

We do get paid for each student not a huge amont of money ,but a fun part time job ,doing something I really think that needs to be done .

OFC there are several people out there that do make a living out of giving classes ,.

I recently lost my training area ,it was at a local dealership and the owner just got snotty with me and told me I no longer could have my classes there .but hopefully I have another dealer that wants me to teach classes at his place .


Redhornet I get figures from my state club ATVAMN AND OVER THE LAST SEVERLE years the conclusion I came to was the people that were injured or killed were
either to young on to big of a machine ,
or older with not much experience
or late teens or early 20's with alcohol involved ,usually with no helmet ,
\
and the Number one factor I see is none of them have ever had a ATV safty course .!!!!

-------------------------
ATV SAFETY INSTRUCTOR
91 WARRIOR
2004 Z400
325 TRAIL BOSS
250 TRAILBLAZER
2004 LTZ 250

25 years in the Army Reserves
1 tour in Iraq ,serving proudly

This debate comes around once or twice a year. those of us that have been hanging around here for any time at all know what history has taught us, but for the novice out there.. here goes.

The consensus has been for a long time, that certain education is one way to improve things. The problem is, there is little consistency in the application from state to state. ASI has been trying to deal with this, but all you have to do is look at the numbers of new riders every year, and understand the very low percentage that actually avail themselves to the training to understand there are problems. Lack of qualified intructors is a real issue. The fact that the CPSC guidelines that go hand in hand with ASI are voluntary also contributes. ASI also will turn away prospective riders if they do not fit within the guidelines. IE a 11 year old child riding an 80 cc machine will not qualify until they turn 12. Even though the child has already outgrown the machine in size/fitment.

One of the real factors that contributes is the influx of cheap machines being sold on every street corner accross the country by manufacturers that couldn't care less if your kid has the proper training, or if the machine is right sized for the child etc. After all, they have your money right?

I personally believe that many parents DO care, but can't find enough real information to make good judgement calls. They turn to the bubba next door, and although they mean well, their advice may not be prudent.

Some manufacturers, Honda in particular, IS taking steps to help by building rider training centers, and making information availabe to dealers that can help parents find the data they need, however very few dealers even mention the existance of this data when making the sale, as it may turn the buyer away.

Also as a parent, you need to look beyond the physical characteristics of the child. Being physically capable of holding on, and hitting the throttle is only part of the equation. You need to consider the mental capacity of a child when confronted with potentially dangerous situations. Most young children can't even comprehend the dangers that the ATV represents. Put them into a situation, and you are inviting disaster.

Proper training is the key, and the younger they get it the better. that carries also a serious parental responsibilty that goes way beyond flashing the plastic. by law, in many states, a parent MUST be physically present at ALL times when kids are riding. Many don't even care.

Then there is the safety equipment issue. Certainly helmets, leather shoes over the ankle, eye protection, and long pants are a minimum. Neck rolls, gloves, chest protectors etc all add margin to the safety equation. More important though, is the examples we as adults present. You act like an idiot, and your child will imitate that. You sound off as if rules are for others, and they act in kind.

It comes down to a parent being a parent.. admitting that they do not have all the answers, and keeping an open mind to the reasons the "rules" exist in the first place. Common sense is the hardest thing to teach, and is usually learned from many painful experiences. The hope is, that with a little knowledge, you can cut those times of pain to a minimum.

Just out of curiosity, how many of us have taught our child how to make their way back to the tow vehicle in case the parent gets injured and needs emergency care? How may of us carry cell phones or other means of communicating when we ride in the woods etc. I have personally been there, done that. After a nasty crash that left me paralized from the neck down for a few minutes, and having to send a very scared child back to my truck to retrieve my cell phone to call for help, I learned a very good lesson that day. I have the 8 surgeries on my right knee and daily pain to show for it too. Yup, I am the poster boy....

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Lets just say these old bones have buckets of experience...
Yamaha Warrior
Yamaha Blaster
Yamaha Raptor 660
Yamaha Raptor 80
Honda Rubicon
Yamaha 450 IRS 4x4

CFC--
"2002 Fatality Risk Estimates Per 100,000 Participants
Motor Vehicles 14.9
Passenger Cars 7.1
ATVs 2.7

also fascinating your almost 3 times more likely to die in a car. hmm. "
___________________________________


Methinks you might not be reading this data quite right. This data was compiled for trending, and I definitely wouldn't use it comparatively when debating with a tree hugger.

If "participants" spent the same amount of time riding ATV's as they do riding in passenger cars, you would be correct...or if they put the same number of miles on ATV's as they do on their cars.

Just to get this straight in my mind, I drive my truck about 15,000 miles a year, and my ATV about 1,500. As a participant in both ATV and passenger vehicle riding, I am 3 times more likely to be killed in my truck than on my ATV, disregarding miles or time spent participating in each transportation mode. But, considering that I put 10 times more miles on my truck...aw heck--someone else figure it out. I'm no mathematician.




-------------------------
AC 400 manual
Bombardier Rally
Ski Doo 440 Touring LE
Ski Doo 380 Touring
Yamaha Ovation

If you put 3 times more miles you have to make the milage the same and you get something like 30 times more likely tio die ., if you put equal amount of miles on your ATV .

Please some one tell me I'm wrong or else I'm over due to be killed .

-------------------------
ATV SAFETY INSTRUCTOR
91 WARRIOR
2004 Z400
325 TRAIL BOSS
250 TRAILBLAZER
2004 LTZ 250

25 years in the Army Reserves
1 tour in Iraq ,serving proudly

Quote

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Originally posted by: deanz400
If you put 3 times more miles you have to make the milage the same and you get something like 30 times more likely tio die ., if you put equal amount of miles on your ATV .

Please some one tell me I'm wrong or else I'm over due to be killed .

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I disagree,

mileage has little to do with it

stupid=dead what ever you drive

What else should we factor in??? average miles per hour

-------------------------
"I pity da foo!"

Bikes 04' 300EX<BR>05' Kodiak 450 S.E. <BR>06' Desert Cat 90

Edited: 01/05/2007 at 02:30 PM by squeege

Quote

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Originally posted by: SawHugger
Here is a link which contains results of a statistical study done by a professional researcher. It is about ATV accident rates compared to the accident rates of other sports or recreational activities:

http://www.heideninc.com/downloads/CPSC_ATV_hearing.pdf

It seems to indicate that ATVs are not so bad after all. According to this; vollyball is just as likely to put you in the emergency room as ATV riding.

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I have to agree with the stats, and general idea that our sport is really no more dangerous than others etc, but this is not the picture that those opposing us are making, and I dont remember the CPSC ever trying to outlaw volleyball for anyone under 16 or 18 etc.

I think we (and most others outside of offroading who were shown the real deal) would all agree that we are being unfairly discriminated against for many reasons (those with hidden enviro agendas, those repaying for campaign contributions etc), but it is still real, and something we need to prepare for.



-------------------------
AKA 440EX4ME
*************
"stupid is as stupid does"

offroadnj.com


Join others in finding places to ride and get involved protecting your right to ride in NJ!!
**************

Rip- ExLosers.com -Rip

************

Quote

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Originally posted by: squeege

Quote

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Originally posted by: deanz400
If you put 3 times more miles you have to make the milage the same and you get something like 30 times more likely tio die ., if you put equal amount of miles on your ATV .

Please some one tell me I'm wrong or else I'm over due to be killed .

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I disagree,

mileage has little to do with it

stupid=dead what ever you drive

What else should we factor in??? average miles per hour

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Lets not forget the unfortunate individuals who were experienced, ready, and just by the luck of the draw etc ended up in trouble. Just like the really interesting new VW commercials where the camera shows vehicle occupants as an unexpected other vehicle slams into them t-bone etc you just cant prevent everything.

When I weed thru stats I always remember something my grandfather told me when I was younger "figures lie, and liars figure". To be honest that seems to come to mind when I question others interpetation of stats as well as when I am figuring my own interpetation

Point is that though as Americans we should exercise our right to question everything we deffinately should be questioning all of these various stats thrown at us, and be aware of where they are coming from. That way if or when we should need to debate them we will be ready.



-------------------------
AKA 440EX4ME
*************
"stupid is as stupid does"

offroadnj.com


Join others in finding places to ride and get involved protecting your right to ride in NJ!!
**************

Rip- ExLosers.com -Rip

************

Quote

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Originally posted by: Deeplaker60
CFC--
"2002 Fatality Risk Estimates Per 100,000 Participants
Motor Vehicles 14.9
Passenger Cars 7.1
ATVs 2.7

also fascinating your almost 3 times more likely to die in a car. hmm. "
___________________________________


Methinks you might not be reading this data quite right. This data was compiled for trending, and I definitely wouldn't use it comparatively when debating with a tree hugger.

If "participants" spent the same amount of time riding ATV's as they do riding in passenger cars, you would be correct...or if they put the same number of miles on ATV's as they do on their cars.

Just to get this straight in my mind, I drive my truck about 15,000 miles a year, and my ATV about 1,500. As a participant in both ATV and passenger vehicle riding, I am 3 times more likely to be killed in my truck than on my ATV, disregarding miles or time spent participating in each transportation mode. But, considering that I put 10 times more miles on my truck...aw heck--someone else figure it out. I'm no mathematician.

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Bahh
i drive my truck 40k a year and my ATVs 5k+ so 1/8 the miles i reckon.

So you sayin your a tree hugger? Most tree huggers i know wouldnt have the forsight to pull off an apples to apples comparrison like that..

-------------------------
"Thats a want, Not a Need"