I'm new to this and want to say hi to everyone 1st, and I'd really appreciate any advice.
I want to change my Rincon 680. Its actually a REALLY good bike and I've only had it a year but its my 1st ATV and I want to upgrade to something with more power because, powerful as it is, that is definately the big let down from my point of view.

A sport quad would probably best suit me BUT I want auto and its got to be a 4x4 because I drive through serious mud and water at times.

With all this in mind I had settled on the Can-Am Renegade 800 as a 'perfect' bike for my needs. However, I've read some really negative reports on reliability. Things burning out, frames twisting, losing power when wet because of belt slippage and bits and pieces dropping off. Also, I read that it is terrible for protecting you against the mud. After a few hours on my Rincon I am covered so I dont want a bike that by all accounts seems to funnel mud towards you!!

I'm now thinking that maybe another make should be considered.
Can anybody suggest anything to look at. Its got to be FAST, a good handler, 4x4 and auto.
Thanks.
Mark.

I don't know about ALL of that but it sounds like the new Thundercat (if you got $11,000) or the much more affordable Brute force is what you're looking for.

-------------------------
700 sportsman efi, 2500 lb warn winch, american eagle plow.

Previous machines:
89' mohave
89' banshee modified
92' yz 250
93' cr 250
94' zx 7r ninja
96' yz 250
99' yzf 400
99 seadoo xp limited
00' yzf 426

Other than the lack of mud coverage (true) all the other negative reports on the Can-Am Renegade are about the same as other manufacturers. You can search around and find tons of flaws in most bikes - which usually represent a few % of all owners.

For your need of speed and sporty, 4wd and good mud protection then I would say:

Can Am Outlander 800 or 650 (Yup, the 650 will blow right past your Honda)
Kawi Brute Force 750
Yamaha Griz 700
Suzuki KQ 750
Polaris 800 or 700
A/C Thundercat 950

Jaybee

-------------------------
'07 Outlander 800 XT Camo
'02 Eiger 5-sp
'02 Ozark
'96 TRX90

Old rides: '89 Warrior, '93 KQ 300, '97 Warrior, '84 LT50, '98 LT80

'07 GMC Sierra 2500HD DMax
25' six-place flatbed trailer

Edited: 05/05/2008 at 07:31 AM by jaybeecon55

I would recommend a 2008 Brute Force 750.

-------------------------
'07 Yamaha Rhino 660: Lonestar long travel suspension w/ Elka shocks; Gorilla axles; Trinity sheave; Dynatek CDI; Yoshimura RS-5 exhaust
'07 Yamaha Grizzly 700: Ohlins shocks; Fix Powersports sheave; Dynatek CDI
'08 KTM 530 EXC R: street legal dirt bike

Thanks for everyones suggestions.
I cant afford the Thundercat (and even if I could I couldnt justify spending that much cash).
I REALLY want all those tales about the Renegade to be false but the lack of fender protection is a real downer. Anyone know if there is some kind of modification/extra available that will give that protection?? Doubt it, and even if there was I guess it'd look bloody stupid.
I am seriously considering the 08 Brute Force or the Outlander 800. Anyone have any pros or cons on which bike? I guess the Outlander is the more powerful of the two? How much faster than the Rincon will they be?
Its a shame about my Honda. Dont know how many others have experience with a Rincon but it really is a nice bike. If I had some way of raising the power and I could cosmetically beef the front end up (thought this wouldnt be that important but it does look a bit weak frontview) I'd stay with it. The clutchless manual shift on the handlebars is excellent. Anyone know of any other makes that have this?

Clutchless manual shift? It's been awhile since I saw a new utility quad that wasn't automatic, but I don't remember seeing a manual clutch on any of the old foot-shifters in all the years I've been riding. Maybe it's on some quads I never saw. Sport quads have one of course.

Most of the trails I ride are impossible to ride over 20mph, but when I hit a dirt road I can do 50-55. That's fast enough for me. I don't want to hit anything doing 70 or 80.

A Sportsman or Grizzly will each have pretty good protection, and I don't know anything about the others. I've heard good and bad things about the Outlander but never from anyone I could trust. The Griz may or may not be faster than the Sportsman, but will be probably be quicker because it's lighter. I only rode a Griz once and almost rolled it over. It felt unstable, and I had it on two wheels before I went 100 yards.

Polaris builds everything like a tank, so it's really tough, but heavy, and not made to win a lot of drag races. None of the non-Polaris quads my friends have impress me. Most of them are quicker but that's all. They don't perform in the mud as well, for one thing. And a lot of the new features are things Polaris invented 10 years earlier, like non-limited-slip 4-wheel-drive, independent suspension, automatic, etc.

-------------------------
2006 Sportsman 500 EFI with winch, Glacier Plow, Lock & Ride backrest, front brushguard, rear bumper, 8" rear rack extension, thumb-warmer, 3-headlight kit, RAM mount for Garmin GPS 12.

Evo 2X 50cc 2-speed powerboard (scooter) with Power Pipe, velocity stack, ADA Racing air filter, bigger drive gear. Only 55 pounds with 6 HP.

2001 Chevy Siverado half-ton 4x4, regular cab, long bed, Leer fiberglass cap, an old mutt in the passenger seat.

Well if you can't afford the Thundercat I think you'll find that the price of the Can Am isn't that friendly either. The money you save on the Brute force I'll bet you can mod it up to run with a Can Am or Thundercat. Keep in mind that stock for stock the Brute probably isn't more than 5 or 6' behind in the hundred. That to me isn't worth the extra $1000 or more.

There is a great looking 08 brute force on Highlifter.com and he's negotiable at $6995 with 25 hrs on it if you're anywhere near TX.

-------------------------
700 sportsman efi, 2500 lb warn winch, american eagle plow.

Previous machines:
89' mohave
89' banshee modified
92' yz 250
93' cr 250
94' zx 7r ninja
96' yz 250
99' yzf 400
99 seadoo xp limited
00' yzf 426

Edited: 05/06/2008 at 09:05 AM by zorro700

Thanks Zorro, right at this moment I think its going to be the 08 Brute 750. I also keep hearing mixed reports on Can Am and just dont feel safe to purchase (especially as a LOT of the reports I have read say how the after sales and warranty is terrible). Sad really because the Renegade was exactley what I wanted!! Even a dealer I talked to earlier tried to put me off the black paintwork on the XT version saying it scratches terribly (though my naturally pessimistic side makes me think its because he only had the standard yellow ones in stock. Maybe I'm just being paranoid though).
Afraid I'm a few miles to far to consider your suggestion: North Cornwall, UK. Appreciate it though.
I dont tend to do a lot of rocks and seriously bad ground here.
Mainly through rides I've cut in woodland on my farm but it gets seriously muddy in certain areas come Winter, hence the reason I cant consider a sport quad as I really think it needs the 4x4 capability. Also, the practical side in me cant justify the purchase unless it can be used around the farm when required (although I doubt it ever will).
I may look at Polaris. I think they look great but it was the power to weight ratio that put me off.
Anyone else got any reasons to either get or drop the Brute would be appreciated.
Cheers.

One quick question:
The Thundercat 950 isnt available quite yet in the UK but does anyone have any real experience with this machine?
I've read the mag reviews but prefer 'real' peoples thoughts.
Doubt I can afford, but is it worth saving longer for??
Build quality, handling etc. I guess the speed isnt an issue.
Thanks all.

Just FYI, there are overfenders available for the Renegade.

Sounds like you'd be better off with more of a utility style though. All the bikes that are 'faster than the Rincon" are going to cost you. The BF is probably the best bang for the buck in what has been mentioned. Speed-wise, all will be noticably faster than the Rincon.

Jaybee

-------------------------
'07 Outlander 800 XT Camo
'02 Eiger 5-sp
'02 Ozark
'96 TRX90

Old rides: '89 Warrior, '93 KQ 300, '97 Warrior, '84 LT50, '98 LT80

'07 GMC Sierra 2500HD DMax
25' six-place flatbed trailer

Jay, have you heard anything about paint issues on the black Renegade??
I'm not totally ignoring what you said earlier. I agree that, if you investigate something on the internet, more often than not it is the negativity that you hear.
You are obviously pleased with your Outlander?
How does the Renegade compare to the Outlander? I guess it is faster, but in other areas? Or is that like asking you to compare apples and oranges?

You should look into the sp 800 like you mentioned. They're very fast too but again it will be SLIGHTLY behind a Brute. I still say get the Brute for what "you" are looking for. I think once you do, you won't look back.

-------------------------
700 sportsman efi, 2500 lb warn winch, american eagle plow.

Previous machines:
89' mohave
89' banshee modified
92' yz 250
93' cr 250
94' zx 7r ninja
96' yz 250
99' yzf 400
99 seadoo xp limited
00' yzf 426

I'm gonna go and test a Brute this weekend with a view to buying and am VERY appreciative of all the advice.

I would expect that the black paint issues on the Renegade are the same as any other black Quad - They look great in the showroom but can't hide the scratches once they get ridden. My brother has a black AC, when we clean off the bikes after a ride his always looks dirty, even if he scrugs it well. Mine (camo) can be hosed off and look clean. We've got a dark green Ozark that is the same way - all the dark colors show dirt and scratches.

Saying I'm pleased with my Outlander doesn't really come close. I've been riding for 12 years and this has got to be the most fun I've ever had.

The Renegade will of course be faster than the Outlander - lighter weight and comes better suspended. Since the engines and transmissions are the same, it's a pretty good comparison. It's scary to imagine something faster than the Outlander 800 though - I've had mine up to 60 MPH (briefly) and it gets there fast. The weak point in the outlanded is the suspension. There is so much power that you can easily overpower the shocks. I've never been much of a mod person but I'd love to have an extra grand laying around so I could bolt on a set of Crutchfield shocks.

The 'frame problem' with the Can-Ams is that Can-Am bills it's single spar frame as a built-in skid plate. The truth of the matter is that if you use your frame as a skid plate, then it's going to get dented and weakened. The problem is solved by adding a real skid plate ASAP. Not different from any other brands frame strength under the same conditions - a tubular frame without a skid will get damaged too but just about every large Ute comes with skid plates.

Jaybee

-------------------------
'07 Outlander 800 XT Camo
'02 Eiger 5-sp
'02 Ozark
'96 TRX90

Old rides: '89 Warrior, '93 KQ 300, '97 Warrior, '84 LT50, '98 LT80

'07 GMC Sierra 2500HD DMax
25' six-place flatbed trailer

Actually like most Utility Honda makes there underpowered for there class. The Rincon is like 38hp and tops out at just above 60mph. A renegade 500 would feel quicker or a 650 for sure. A older 660 Grizzly is a more powerful and quicker ATV.

Faster more powerful than a Rincon? Take your pick.


AC 1000_________65.84 hp
Can Am 800______61.7 hp
Can Am 650______55.4 hp
Brute 750 Carb____50.1 hp
Polaris 800_______50.1 hp
Brute 750 EFI_____49.8 hp
King Quad 750____49.6 hp
King 700_________48.5 hp
Grizzly 700________45.6 hp
Polaris 700_______44.3 hp
AC 700 H1_______41.4 hp
AC 700__________41.4 hp
Grizzly 660_______40.9 hp
Can Am 500______40.4 hp
AC 650 H1_______39.3 hp
Rincon 680_______38.5 hp
King 450_________36.7 hp


Polaris (2007)

Hawkeye 300=17
trailblazer 330=19 hp
Phoenix 200=13 hp
sportsman 450=29.7 hp
Sportsman 500 Ho (carB) 34.5hp
Sportsman 500 EFI/x2/Scrambler 500=36 hp
Predator 500 = 48 HP
Outlaw 500 = 48.6 HP
700 EFI= 44 HP
800 EFI/ 800x2 = 50.2 HP

Honda (2007)

250ex = 16.8 HP
300 EX= 17.1 HP
400 ex= 34.2 hp
500 (fm and fe) =26.9 hp
680 (rincon) =38.5 hp

Bomb (2007)

400 = 28.9 hp
500 = 39 hp
650 = 55.3 hp
800 = 61.6 hp

AC (2007)

400 = 24.8
400 DVX = 36.6
500 = 32.0
650 H1 = 39.3
700 EFI = 41.4

KAWASAKI (2007)

KLF 250A7 = 17 HP
750 (PRARIE AND BRUTE)=50.1 hp
360 = 21 hp
700 = 48.7 hp

Yamaha (2006)

450 Kodiak = 26 Hp
350 bruin = 21.3 hp
350 raptor = 26.8 hp
yfz 450 = 38.6 hp
700r = 47 hp
660 = 40.9 hp

suzuki ( 2006)
250 = 17.3 hp (2007)
400 eiger = 22 hp (2007)
a500f=32.4
f500f=33.6

-------------------------
2001 SP 500 H.O

Edited: 05/07/2008 at 07:20 PM by TLC

Blimey!!
That would explain why I felt my Rincon wasnt that powerful.
May be my ignorance but shouldnt the fuel injected BF have more HP than the none fuel injected 07 model?
Just when I thought my mind was made up its back to the Can Ams again!!
I'll test them all (which I should have been planning on doing anyway) and decide between the Outlander, Renegade and Brute Force.
Maybe if I can get some kind of better warranty from the Can Am dealer and that'll solve my worries.
Then, if I still cant decide I'll sell a coupla kidneys (as opposed to just one kidney for a Can Am) and wait for the Arctic Cat 950 to surface in the UK.

Some ATVs have the same motors with different air intakes and pipes,all these HP Numbers are measured at the crank so clutch kits do not help the results.

The AC 700 and KQ 700 have the same motor but different are box and pipe. The carb 500 Scrambler also has the same power as a 500 Sportsman EFI due to its pipe. 350 Raptor and Bruin/Grizzly have the same motor as well.

I think Honda is on the low side of power because it still uses OHV vs OHC motors.

-------------------------
2001 SP 500 H.O

Just a final note to say thanks again for everyones suggestions.
I am almost certainly going for the Brute Force now. Arctic Cat and Can Am are more than I feel comfortable spending AND Kawasaki are offering me a half decent pt X on the Rincon as well as a far better deal on the BF + they are a local, well respected dealer if I have any probs.
Cheers all.