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Posted by: Nut
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Originally posted by: 26yearoldbeginner
I have 2 drinking hours into it and I'm ready to remove the rails and lower the engine.
OH YEAH!!! I've found someone else that uses "beer" as an official unit of measurement for time. For example, I describe the time required for maintenance tasks as, "Oh, that's about a six-pack job", or "That would probably take me about a half-case to do." or "Awww, no problem, I can have that done in one or two beers."
I'll be dropping my engine and doing the stud update in the next week or two. I anticipate dropping the engine in about 4-6 beers and needing about another six to do the stud update. Hopefully these will happen on two different days, otherwise I can't predict WHAT I'll end up with!
Posted by: yamracer
I have a few questions about my moto. I think its vin #137. It is an 02. The main question I have is I haven't did anything to mine as far as updates. All i have done to the quad other than stuff I break is clutches and changing my oils. Other than that I havent had the first update. My sponser says that a lot of them don't apply to the moto. Any help on which ones applys to me. I know you all dont know for sure about the crank case as of which vin #'s are affected or if all of them are but any help with the other updates are appreciated. I haven't had the first problem though that is why I haven't sweated them. Mine has been so reliable!!Thanks
Posted by: Ryanstones
Hey yo, Did you have your engine out previously for a valve adjustment or somethin? If not, then your dealer did not do the stud update cause it didn't exist when you bought your quad! I've not heard of any of the gen 1 engines like ours grenading from this problem. Have heard of crank bearing failures though.
There are detailed instructions on that other forum. Pulling the clutch basket gives you a view of only 1 of the crank plate bolts, most of what you see is tranny plate bolts.
Posted by: Ryanstones
I'm not 'knowing' anything. But from hanging out on the c'dale boards since 5/01 there are some patterns suggested. Others would have a better overview but:
I call the gen1(01-early02) engines those with a gold/bronze colored left side case and aluminum valve cover(no corrosion). I think gen 1's mostly came with 500ECU's. They had some crank/carnkbearing failures and were prone to oil puking.
Gen 2 has the white/grey side case and magnesium valve cover. The early ones may be the most reliable of all the dales, but later production had electrical and mapping problems(stalling~fixable). I'm wondering how many guys with these have had the bolt backing out problem. Markvette? Others?
Gen 3 are the motors with the silver/white sidecases and i guess are the SSM cast cases. Are everyone of these going to have the backout problem? Or do these already have the stud update?
Cannondale had problems with supplier and production tolerances every step of the way and components specs changed dozens of times over this timeline, so having a certain color case is no guarantee. I hope some of the Gurus can fill in the gaps here. Somebody knows the answers, but maybe it isn't wise to get too particular til after the auction. On 'riders a cannontech is asking for VIN#'s, & problems in order to figure out where the fatal flaws are.
Posted by: briansgi
1. Drain Fluid (transmission fluid of course)
2. Pull Gear Shifter
3. Pull case cover (the black one with the great big c on it)
4. Theres a clutch cover with 6 allen bolts, remove that
5. pull clutch plates (easier, they slide right out of the basket)
6. Remove C clip from the shaft
7. Pull the clutch basket out
You will see the allen head bolts behind where the clutch basket was. Unfortunately you cannot get to all of them, you must drop the motor for that!
Posted by: iceracer17
ryanstones,I don't know if this would be the problem of the crank bearings but,I tore my 03 le down and the crank bearings are plastic caged.Seemed kind of odd to me.I'm going to see if I can find steel caged for mine.
Posted by: MxDale71
My dealership said they did the crankcase stud update, but I"m starting to wonder now. I started hearing a noise as I was pulling up to where I was pitted after my last moto.
Could someone please explain, in detail, how to check to see if the update has been done. What do I have to take off of the motor to see? Do I have to drop the motor to get to it? Sorry if these are dumb questions but I'm not a very mechanically inclined person. I can just do the basic maintanance crap.
Posted by: MxDale71
I had my quad at the dealership a couple of months ago. I told them to do the crankcase stud update and that engine rail motor mount recal thing they had (can't remember exactly what that one was called). I called them later on to ask if it was ready and they said, "Yep, she's all done, but we didn't have to do the motor mount update."
So far it seems like I've picked up the "golden child" of the C-dales. For what I've put it through, it's been absolutely bullet-proof (knock on wood), but I still want to make sure mine won't have any of the problems that others have had. I'm a firm believer of the "better safe than sorry" saying
The thing is, I couldn't hear the noise today after I cleaned it. After my race, my quad was extremely muddy and my left heal-gaurd was awfully close to my tire so it might just have been hitting. Sometimes it's just hard to tell if it's really a motor noise of just something on the quad, but I'm gonna check out the crankcase stud bolts to make sure they're ok. I have to change the oil this week anyways so I'll do it then.
Oh, if Mark or Todd or Kip reads this... I'll send Kip those bolts back tomorrow.
Posted by: MxDale71
They shouldn't charge you anything. I didn't have to pay anything, ofcourse they might not have even done anything so I don't know.
I took the clutch cover off, caught the first few plates that almost fell out, set those back in and kinda looked around in it. I didn't want to dig into it to much since I"m not very mechanically inclined but I noticed that while I had the clutch cover off, that there is a little rod in the middle of where the plates are and it was able to move around quite a bit. I was wondering if yall know if that rod is supposed to be able to move up and down and side to side or what? That rod is in the middle of the clutch plates behind where the lock nut would be on the clutch cover.
If you don't know what I"m talking about, I'll try to see if I can get some pics of it.
Posted by: MxDale71
Oh and when I pull the plates out, am I supposed to set the plates aside in some oil or something or is that just for when you're putting in new ones?
Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions but I haven't really even gotten into a motor any, so I don't want to do anything wrong.
Posted by: MxDale71
lol
Posted by: dubya1
Ryan,
I have an early Gen2 and I totally agree with your assesment. Good Job man. I checked all of my crankcase bolts and they were good. I opted at this time not to do the stud update. I will pull the motor again in 25 hours of time.
For those of you opting to go without the stud update, I would religiously change your oil and look at the tranny filter very close. Look for metal shavings which would indicate a problem?
And for god sake clean your air filter!!!!!!!
Posted by: jschner
This might answer a few questions and create a few more but from what I gather somewhere in 2002 Cannondale's crank vendor started giving Cannondale cranks that weren't as balanced as the earlier ones. Same vendor, just not as good a balance on the cranks as the earlier ones in early '02 motors. This causes the engine to vibrate slightly more than the earlier '02 motors. With this extra vibration and engine heating and cooling the bolts come loose much quicker than the early '02 motors.
Don't ask me the date when they started using the unbalanced cranks because I don't know. Can't tell you how to identify your crank either. Maybe someone else can help here. Also, don't freak out about your crank if you think you have an unbalanced one. They are all good it's just the later ones could be better and the tiny headed stock bolts can't handle the extra vibrations.
That said I don't think the bikes with balanced cranks are immune to the bolts backing out. It may take longer but I think all motors with the stock bolts are going to fail eventually.
My personal feeling is the stud update is not a permanent fix. It may stay tight much longer due to the extra contact area under the nut but I think because of the forces going on here they may eventually loosen as well then it will be a nut busting up everything in the motor.
Some guys are looking into locking clips whatever those are. Myself and a couple guys are are looking into ways to safety wire these bolts or nuts like in aircraft or racing engines. I found some titanium metric bolts that are flanged and drilled but those things are like $12 each.
If anyone has a source for metric alloy drilled flanged hex bolts please pm me.
Jim
www.cannondaler.com
Posted by: Madcdale
If you are unsure on what bulletins are needed for your cannondale, check there website and go under bulletins. There are three different choices, so check every one. All cannondale quads are effected with some bulletin or another. My 02 cannibal #300 is effected by the motor mount update, and the battery tray update. I will dig into my engine this week and check my bolts to see if they are all tight.
If you are in dire need of help or more inforamtion check out www.cannondaleriders.com or cannondaler.com. There is very good inforamation in these forums. These people can help with your question pertaining to your cannondale quads. Some are even cannondale techs. I hope this helps some.
ps I am not advertising, just trying to help out fellow cannondale riders with the best possible information.
Posted by: tester
My two cents:
The real answer lies in unbalanced cranks and poor case design. Frankly I've seen better designed bilge pumps. It astonishes me how risky and inadequate the design is in a lot of areas. I'll guess that the engine was initially designed for lighter loads and a lot less demanding application than ATVs and Motorcycles. In an attempt to develop the high power needed and the imperative to do it cheaper , the engineers took the design out of its performance envelope. Add in cheaper parts and you have bolts loosening up, cases cracking, compression releases chunking, and blown bearings.
Posted by: 26yearoldbeginner
I was quoted $350 by janssen racing here in wisconsin who is a cannondale dealer. So I decided to do it myself, still working on it! Seems pretty easy just takes alot of time. I decided to safety wire the bolts together. But I have not taken cover off yet still in process of removing the engine. I have 2 drinking hours into it and I'm ready to remove the rails and lower the engine. I'll post if the safety wire works easily or if it does not.
Posted by: LapTraff1c
Anyone have the stud update recently done by their dealer?
Are they charging you for the work?
Posted by: LapTraff1c
you buy your bike from a dealer?
Posted by: LapTraff1c
Im not sure what the rod does but it does move around a little. There is a single ball bearing in the cap that fits over the rod. That was a bit alarming to see that sitting on the workbench "honey, did you see where this ball bearing fell out of?" BR>
When you fit it back together make sure the rod is in the cap, then slide it back in as a unit.
As for the oil on the clutch plates I wouldnt waorry about it just for inspection, but if you are going to have it apart for awhile I'd store them in a ziplock with a little oil.
Also, make sure you keep the sequence right when reinstalling them.
Good luck, this is how we all start
Posted by: LapTraff1c
Quote
I describe the time required for maintenance tasks as, "Oh, that's about a six-pack job", or "That would probably take me about a half-case to do." or "Awww, no problem, I can have that done in one or two beers."
LOL same way BR>
This should not be confused with the use of beer as a monetary system which can make for some problems.
One time while helping a friend I made the mistake of telling him that helping him bleed his brakes is a one or two beer job. The nimrod GAVE me two beers as payment! He was clearly confused. I would need to DRINK two beers (his) while performing the work and need an additional 6 pack as payment (isnt this the standard?). Sometimes I think it's better to get this stuff in writing
Posted by: phatbulldog
Hey ryan, are you saying that most of the problems are in the 03 or the 2 gen engines?? I have an 02 so how can I check (which I have the allen heads) to see if I do in fact have the 1st gen engine??
Posted by: phatbulldog
Man, I called all over the state of Florida nobody wants to touch it untill after the auction. I told them all that I bought the kit from quadsource and and have all the bolts and the gasket. But no one wanted to touch it, I guess I'll find out in 2 more weeks (3/20).
