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Posted by: psuperman112
the specs on both trucks seem identical, yet the 3500 is rated a little higher for wieght capacity. Why is this? the 3500 doesnt have bigger brakes or anything, I'm not sure what the advantage would be to getting a 3500 would be unless getting a dually.
Posted by: psuperman112
i agree BRWarrior is a great help, i'm not sure if he remembers, but he helped me select my current truck, a chevy 2500HD. Now i'm thinking about upgrading to a 2500 with a diesel, but was thinking about maybe going to the 3500. I tow a 26' Attitude toy hauler and I know that with with the toys and 4 people I'm over legal capacity. The 3500 would put me closer, but i'm not sure if it would make a big difference in the way it would tow, handling wise. BRWarrior, do you happen to know how duallys do in the sand, like pismo? maybe i should just go all the way to the dually.......... wish i didnt have to though
Posted by: psuperman112
thanks for the replys. So you guys think I'll be fine towing with a SRW 2500? I havent weighed myself but when dry my Toy hauler (not a 5th wheel) should be around 7k, I fill up close to wherever i'm going and dump close also. Still have to figure in 3 quads, firewood, 4 people, etc. I dont really feel to unstable on my current 4X4 2500 HD with the 6.0, I just want the added power of a diesel so that maybe i could add some 285 tires and not feel the power loss as much. At the same time if gonna get a new truck, maybe I should just go bigger. I dont think i'll be upgrading my trailer anytime soon, if that helps.....
Posted by: psuperman112
well there's a few reasons for upgrading:
1. When I got my current truck I didnt think I would use it for much else besides towing, but I use my truck almost as much as my daily driver. Since I thought i wouldnt use it I got the base model, no power locks, windows, etc.
2. I have an extended cab, and everyone complains about the back seat, I want to upgrade to CC
3. I generally only ride in three places, Pismo, Glamis, and Gorman. There are some grades on the way to Pismo, and Gorman, where my truck will not go over 45 MPH and the trans temp gauge moves up quickly. I think a diesel would help this.
4. I think I'm getting a pretty good deal on a 2006 2500 diesel with the LBZ engine.
Althought I dont NEED to upgrade, I really WANT to. BRWarrior, I'm from north orange county. Do you think the diesel will be able to tow that kind of weight with bigger tires?
Posted by: psuperman112
I'm pretty sure the gear ratio will be 3.73, all of the 2500s i've seen comes with it that way. by big tires i mean whatever will fit without rubbing, there is an arguement as to whether or not 285s rub. I really dont want a lift kit, so tires will probably be 285.
Posted by: psuperman112
well, i got the deal worked out, if nothing goes wrong, i should be picking up the truck tomorrow. its a 2500hd with the diesel/allison, CC, 4x4, and long bed.
Posted by: tmm2good
I have a 04 GMC 3500SRW, the only difference is an extra overload spring and higher rated tires. It does give you 700 lbs more capacity than the 2500hd. 9200 gvwr vs 9900 gvwr. I chose the 3500 becauase it gives me a little more margin for payload when I bought my trailer without going to a dually.
I thought the cab lights only had to be on certain width vehicles ie: dually or the quadrasteer with slightly wider fenders..
Posted by: tmm2good
All good info here...when I purchased my 3500 srw, the price difference between the 2500hd and mine was less than 100 bucks.
Posted by: tmm2good
Yep, you can only get the 3:73 rear end. But with 650 foot pounds coming out of that LBZ, you can jump up to a 265 or 285 tire with no problem. My 3500 srw came stock with 265.
You will have no problem keeping your truck at the speed limit on any of those roads with your trailer.
A reminder, if you are looking at a short bed GM, they only have a 26 gallon fuel tank and a 34 gallon with the long bed.
If you want to do a lot of reading about the GM diesels, go over to dieselplace.com.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
As for why people go with the 250/2500s over the 350/3500s (esp. SRWs) around here is they don't want to pay the extra cost of the weight fee. Of course that doesn't mean they don't just load them up the same. The weight fees are there to pay for the wear and tear on the roads. Of course they belly ache about the conditions of the roads...
IIRC Ford's price is like $1,000 for the bump from 250 to 350SRW while gaining 1000lb GVWR. I think some states must have a deviding line at 10,000lb GVWR as Ford has an option on a couple of the 250s to limit the GVWR to 10,000lb. I know that Cali. kicks in with the Motor Carrier of Property (commonly referred to as a "CA Number" as it's required on the vehicles as "CA XXXXXX") at 10K, unless it's a pickup.
As far as lighting, that is at a minimum is under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 and 49 CFR 571.108. Any state can make it more stringent. It also appears that Canada follows the same rules, in their Section 108 of the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations.
The information I found was in a chart here.
The three center lights do denote a wide vehicle. These are referred to as the ID lamps. Clearance markers (at the sides) are required on vehicles over 2032mm (80") which then would trigger the 3 center group.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: rescuediver
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Originally posted by: squeege
I am always amazed by the amount of info. on this site.....hr>
It sure is niceand B&RW is a walking encyclopedia on this stuffhr>
Thanks for the complement. It's not that I know all this stuff, it's that I know enough of where to look for the right answers. Usually it involves google. You just have to know which results are good to parse.
It usually starts out either someone just asking like this, WHY? Or there are times where I have to prove someone wrong. BR>
Funny thing is, I hardly venture out of Towing, Other (mainly Spin Zone...yes...I'm one of the Adjust Spiinners...but I'm the socially adjusted ones j/k guys) and sometimes drop into the Where to Ride and Environment. LOL
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: JeffinTD
I'll second the complement. That was a good post, and good information.
Thanks again. Some people don't appreciate it. A member of my local quad riding club tends to get in a tissy over stuff like this. I'm suprised they didn't go off over me giving in depth explanation on some air compressor issues...but the day isn't over yet. BR>
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I knew some states require higher fees or don't allow vehicles over a specific GVWR to be personal vehicles, but didn't know the specifics.
CA is kinda funny. You can have a regular plate or commercial plates. Nearly every pickup gets commercial plates. These plates are numbered like such: 8N12345. They are going to have to come up with a new scheme for commercial plates. They are in the 8s now. The 9 series are HD (Class 8) trucks. Non-Commercial plates are 5ABC123. You can get a non-comm plate for a pick-up, but can't put anything in the bed. So it's useless.
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Also, I was a bit surprised that F250 and F350SRW's have that big of a difference in price. When I ordered my Dodge, you had to spec 3500 which bumped the price like $1100 or something, then you selected a dual wheel delete option that reduced the price. When it was said and done, I think there was like $170 difference (invoice) over a 2500 to get a 3500 SRW.
That's the price I was told. But haven't investigated it. But this is CA, where unless you go to a dealer in the sticks you're gonna pay an extra $5K for the pleasure of doing business with a chain dealer.
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My little 5th wheel has a pin weight of 1900 dry, so for my purpose the 3500 made sense, but it sounds like I'm lucky I don't have to register it in California...
Sit down. For our '94 F-450 flat bed:
Registration Fee (same for every regular vehicle (not OHVs): $40
License Fee (this was the big broohaah back in the late Davis Admin.: $24 This is in-leu of paying property tax to the county. It's down like 1.5% of the value. Or something like that.
Weight Fee (hold on to your hat, 15K GVWR) $257
County/District Fee: $10
Total is 331.
There's also the CVRA fee. But I don't see that we paid that or did anything with it. It's your max operating weight (GVW or GCW). This was created when they changed from registering a trailer every year to every 5 years for like $25 or something. We have 40' old reefer trailers that were $900+ a year because of weight fees. We didn't register them (on the road 2-4x per year). LOL Just got moving permits. Though CVRA doesn't apply to pickups. Only stuff with work bodies (even if it's a 250 or 350 w/ a non-pickup style bed, it falls under CVRA when over 10K GVWR), flat beds, etc.
Anyways:
10,001-15,000 $332
15,001-20,000 $447
20,001-26,000 $546
An F-150 (6500 GVWR) has a weight fee of like $24-$80. Why the one was only 24, don't ask. LOL All the others were 80.
It's an utter mess looking through our DMV file. 2 vehicle in the same class, or close enough, with diff. stuff. An older van with the same weight, was even more. And it's driven 1/10 the miles!
Some places, I think Canada, you can get the over 10K GVWR trucks cheaper because comm. truck registration is cheaper than non-commercial.
It's good to see someone actually get the right truck for the job. The people I know here who go 250 over 350 to save on weight fees just tweak me. Just be lucky they don't have to put down some of these CVRAs. 80K is 2064. Plus $6 for a stupid 3" square sticker!
Well, I can't think anymore. It's like over 90 in my office. The lovely power that PG&E has been sending us fried the speed controller for the fan in the A/C. This then fried the fan. $1K. We should be able to bill those morons for it! The A/C tech was getting like 60V at his house in Coursegold last week! 2 weeks ago we were down to about 104V here. Wore out 2 UPSes correcting for that.
[ed]
My bad, it cooled off to 89. I'm still sweating like a ... yeah.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: JeffinTD
So let's see... Down there you can't own a machine gun even if you have the federal permits, it's hotter than heck, too many people, and you have to pay those messed up fees, deal with the carb board, spill proof gas cans...
I think my truck is like $36 to register. RV's are by length, and mine is like $200 for 2 years. You can register a class 8 semi tractor as a personal, non-commercial vehicle if you want...
As far as heat, depends on where you are. PG&E sets baseline based on the central coast where most houses don't need AC, while over in the valley baseline is what you dream of, and pass about 10 days into your bill. LOL
Yeah, the fees are a bit screwy. Nothing is simple. BR>
CARB...err...let's not go there. They are PITA and anti-diesel. Now they are complaining about NOx. Well, if you get low HC, you get high NOx. They don't want to harmonize with the new Federal small engine rules. Nope, still gotta be different. Because the Feds aren't tough enough on one part (NOx, IIRC), but are tougher somewhere else. Blech.
In the name of all things sane, i think DLs, vehicle registration, etc. should all be completely standardized across the nation. Now CDL is as it's set for interstate commerce. But everything should be.
You know those damn anti-spill containers...well I spill MORE with them. Yeah...let's hold 5 gallons of fuel in the air above the tank, then press down and have the fuel SPRAY to the sides so when I'm done it sprays all over the tank! WOOT! Morons.
I'm not sure how they register RVs as far as weight, etc. Probably have to talk with a couple people I know with them. Toy hauler and travel trailers (trailer coaches to DMV) are registered differently than any other trailer (utility, van (i.e. an enclosed big rig trailer), etc.) They include VLF as they can be used for habitation.
There have been a few people who have been able to get Class 8s reregistered as RVs. But DMV can get pissy. Now, they just bring them in from out of state already registered out of state as RVs.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: psuperman112
i agree BRWarrior is a great help, i'm not sure if he remembers, but he helped me select my current truck, a chevy 2500HD. Now i'm thinking about upgrading to a 2500 with a diesel, but was thinking about maybe going to the 3500. I tow a 26' Attitude toy hauler and I know that with with the toys and 4 people I'm over legal capacity. The 3500 would put me closer, but i'm not sure if it would make a big difference in the way it would tow, handling wise. BRWarrior, do you happen to know how duallys do in the sand, like pismo? maybe i should just go all the way to the dually.......... wish i didnt have to though
Glad I could be of help.
As far as duallies, they don't seem to be very popular at Pismo. I knew one person who brought one on the beach ('94 series, not sure what year, but that body style) V10 club cab and 4x2, err would that be 6x4? Anyways, it sucked. LOL. If you go 4x4 it's probably not as much of an issue. Of course at Pismo the number one thing is tires. People say no, but I think so. Especially when you're looking at a heavy duty tire, like a dually. They usually have very stiff sidewalls to support the weight and so they don't bulge good. Though, I have seen a number of people running BFG A/Ts on duallies. Just make sure they have the load rating. In the perfect world, you would have 2 sets. Some tires that are good for the sand and some that are good elsewhere. Just run the tires for the sand when you need to. But that's probably a few grand...
IIRC, the A/Ts are derated for dual tires. Look on the sidewall. One of the things I think that's a problem is instead of putting the rear axle weight on 2 tires, you now have 4, so you have to go lower in pressure for the same weight to get the same bulge (goal is 2x the contact patch.)
The duallies really excel when you go with a 5th wheel because of the heavy pins and the high AWR of the rear axles. I think Ford rears are rated to like 10K. But don't quote me. I would assume GM would be in the same area. Plus it's just plane wider. If you're looking to go to a bigger, and possibly 5th wheel, look at the duallies. Talk to anyone you see with one and ask them. Talk to local off-road shops. Though so many just make street queens. Yeah...low profile tires on a 4x4. That's a GREAT idea. Let's see...rocks...no bulging for bad traction situations...those make great 4x4s. Especially when the center of gravity is 6' in the air. (Yes, I think monster lifted street queen trucks are stupid, for practical purposes. If I'm dropping $50-80K on a truck, she's gonna get used...and probably a bit abused.)
A nice thing now is they make extension kits for valves for the tires. They mount to the wheel or hub or something and make easy access for inflating/deflating. I've seen them at NAPA. Probably other places carry as well. Just a short extension hose really.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
I would say that first and foremost, if you're not sure. Weigh it. Then you know for sure if you need to (overweight), should (maybe in the 80-99% of weight) or flat out just want to go bigger. I don't believe there's anything that says you can't be forced to weigh. That ticket could be a real bummer to the start of a weekend.
Expanding on what Jeffin said, or I think he did (lol) or was trying to get at, with a bumper tow, you probably won't gain much stability. They excel with heavy loads in the bed. If you don't think you'll move up to a 5th, then I would probably say to bypass them. That's 2 extra tires you have to watch over. If you need to move up a class of truck, then I think a 3500 SRW would be the best (well actually a 350, but I think you're a GM guy... )
As for going with a diesel, I say go for it IF and ONLY IF it makes sense (or you just flat out want one, which I think is what you want, you're just looking for someone to tell you (and possibly help convince a wife?) to get one. So... get it if you want it.) I'm not sure where that is you live (I just checked now). But if you commute a good distance, it could be advantageous. If you have a short commute (say like 10 min. or less) it's not too good on a diesel to run short trips. But if you spend a lot of time driving, do it. Empty they are going to get better mileage. Loaded, especially since you have the 6.0, it will be MUCH better.
Fuel costs are in such a flux, and depending on where you get fuel, it could be a wash or a bonus. Some stations around here are selling #2 for less than 87, while many are well over 92. Some maintenance items are more expensive, or require more maintenance. There aren't as many fuel stations, but if you're traveling the highways, I don't think it's as much of an issue. Plus, you'll be able to go longer distances. Though the short bed GMs have really small tanks from what I've been told.
I got to drive a buddy's GMC D/A at Pismo (he came back to camp with his tail between his legs as he took off and got about 1/2 mile down the beach and ran out of fuel). This is just my personal opinion but I hated the accelerator pedel. There was hardly any resistance. Hit a bump and the motor reved, getting the front end light, rinse, repeat for 1/2 mile of sand. LOL They are nice trucks. Especially the GMCs. Another person thing, I HATE the Chevy front ends. Blech. Though, Ford's '08, from the spy shot I say, falls into the butt ugly categtory. And I'm a Ford guy.
As far as fees, CVRA isn't an issue. Only the regular weight fee. And if you're going to be dropping 30-40K (or more) what the extra for the little higher weight fee (if you're going to 3500)?
You'll spend more for the diesel up front, but that will carry over if you stay with them. Diesel fuel has to go around 30% higher than 87 for you to start losing out on the fuel mileage.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: psuperman112
well there's a few reasons for upgrading:
1. When I got my current truck I didnt think I would use it for much else besides towing, but I use my truck almost as much as my daily driver. Since I thought i wouldnt use it I got the base model, no power locks, windows, etc.
2. I have an extended cab, and everyone complains about the back seat, I want to upgrade to CC
3. I generally only ride in three places, Pismo, Glamis, and Gorman. There are some grades on the way to Pismo, and Gorman, where my truck will not go over 45 MPH and the trans temp gauge moves up quickly. I think a diesel would help this.
4. I think I'm getting a pretty good deal on a 2006 2500 diesel with the LBZ engine.
Althought I dont NEED to upgrade, I really WANT to. BRWarrior, I'm from north orange county. Do you think the diesel will be able to tow that kind of weight with bigger tires?
1 & 2 definately sound like good reasons for a new truck (specifically upgraded trim (#1) and Crew cab (#2)).
3. Not only the diesel, but the Allison is a great tranny. I'm assuming you're getting the D/A combo. @45 on the Grapevine, you can be a rolling roadblock. But then again, the trucks are all running 35 or so anyways. I've only had the "pleasure" of driving it a few times. Memorial Day of '03 (HVSVRA) and then in April of this year to Chattsworth. Coming home (north) a bicycle could have gone faster (construction there at the exit with the overlook building @ Pyramid Lake). So I haven't had much experience, but IIRC it is 6%.
Of course when (not if, cause we both know you're gonna get it) go for the full gauge pod on the door pillar. 1) look cool 2) very informative. I don't know how good GM's tranny temp gauge is, I've heard pretty good. But Ford's tranny temp gauge is like KFC: original, or extra crispy.
4. Go for it. All 3 are hurting and need the sales. LBZ is 600ft lbs. That should turn just about any tire. Though the bigger tires will take some power away. Go with the 4.10/4.11 whatever gear is close to that.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Enjoy it! And congrats.
Posted by: rescuediver
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Originally posted by: squeege
I am always amazed by the amount of info. on this site.....hr>
It sure is niceand B&RW is a walking encyclopedia on this stuff
Posted by: JeffinTD
With Dodge anyway, the only thing different between the 2500 and SRW 3500 is a set of overload springs on the rear, and an increase in gross vehicle weight rating and in payload capacity. Up until recently the 3500's also had to have cab lights, but I think there was a change in federal lighting requirements. Price difference between the two is insignificant, but the increase in weight rating makes a significant difference in what campers and 5th wheels you can have and still be legal.
I suspect Chevy is similar. I would guess that the reason for these is that some states have higher registration fees for vehicles with heavier gross weight ratings...
Funny the big 3 also seem to try to keep SRW 3500's under 10,000 pounds GVWR. Dually trucks are wide/heavy enough that they fall under the requirements for center lights in the rear (on the tailgate).
Posted by: JeffinTD
I don't know what the deal with cab lights is. I know they were required on SRW 3500's when I bought mine, but now they aren't. The trucks didn't change, so I presume the rules did. I think the tail gate light is a width thing.
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I'm not sure what the advantage would be to getting a 3500 would be unless getting a dually.
Well, it looks like you get a big bump in payload for very little extra price, so I guess the question I would ask is what would the advantage be to get a 2500? (Unless you live in one of the places that have much higher registration for heavier GVWR vehicles).
Jeff
Posted by: JeffinTD
I'll second the complement. That was a good post, and good information.
I knew some states require higher fees or don't allow vehicles over a specific GVWR to be personal vehicles, but didn't know the specifics.
Also, I was a bit surprised that F250 and F350SRW's have that big of a difference in price. When I ordered my Dodge, you had to spec 3500 which bumped the price like $1100 or something, then you selected a dual wheel delete option that reduced the price. When it was said and done, I think there was like $170 difference (invoice) over a 2500 to get a 3500 SRW.
My little 5th wheel has a pin weight of 1900 dry, so for my purpose the 3500 made sense, but it sounds like I'm lucky I don't have to register it in California...
Posted by: JeffinTD
So let's see... Down there you can't own a machine gun even if you have the federal permits, it's hotter than heck, too many people, and you have to pay those messed up fees, deal with the carb board, spill proof gas cans...
I think my truck is like $36 to register. RV's are by length, and mine is like $200 for 2 years. You can register a class 8 semi tractor as a personal, non-commercial vehicle if you want...
Posted by: JeffinTD
psuperman112,
I'll add my .02 on your question, too, if that's ok.
2WD dually trucks are generally useless in snow or sand when there is nothing in the bed. The weight of the rear is spread over the contact patch of 4 tires and doesn't seem to be pushed down with enough pressure to grip and get traction, the tires are at a very small percentage of their rated load so they don't flex, and if you have a heavy diesel engine up front the front tires can tend to sink.
If you put say 3,000 pounds or more in the back, they get around much better on slick roads (where there is a solid base underneath). In 4x4 they do well. In the sand, I'd think it would be ideal to have about 1000 pounds in the back, and drop air pressure. If you find that doesn't work for you, then I'd think about getting different tires, but you will find that you can't go too much bigger without worrying about sidewall to sidewall clearance between the duals.
In Dodge, otherwise similarly equipped 2500, 3500SRW, and dually will have the same gross combined weight rating, so if you are running a bumper pull, you may not gain much by getting a dually unless you are hauling something heavy in the bed, too.
In 5th wheels and big slide in campers, though, the bigger ones will overload the rear axle rating and/or the gross vehicle weight of a 2500 or 3500 SRW, and a Dually will be more stable and better handling with those kinds of loads, anyway.
I've found that as time goes by, my taste for RV's seems to drift to larger, so my next rig will be a dually, maybe a 5500 series.
Posted by: JeffinTD
B&R Warrior will probably have some helpful tips, too, but I'd say that if you find the 2500 you have now is stable and safe on the road, and you are under all of it's listed capacities (which I would imagine you would be), that if you wanted to upgrade to a diesel you may as well get a 2500 and stay out of the higher CA fees...
Everyone has strong opinions about diesels, and I love my Cummins. Most of the time empty I get around 18-19, and if I slow down a bit on the freeway it will return 20.
Pulling my 5er, I will get around 12 on mountain roads, and as high as 14 when not loaded heavy and doing a reasonable speed on the freeway.
Mostly, I like the way it runs and tows, and find it to be fun to drive (as well as more powerful and fuel efficent).
Posted by: JeffinTD
2 questions that would help evaluate how the truck would tow with big tires:
1. How big of tires are we talking about? Are you looking at 285/75/17's, or some 38inchers?
2. What's the rear end ratio of the truck you are looking at? (IE 4.10, or 3.73 or whatever).
Posted by: JeffinTD
I'm kind of surprised they don't offer 4.10. (Isn't the Allison a double overdrive?)
Anyway, with 3.73's and that modest payload and only 285's I'd also think you would be fine.
Posted by: JeffinTD
Neat.BR>
Enjoy the new truck, and let us know how it works for you.
Posted by: squeege
I am always amazed by the amount of info. on this site.....
