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Posted by: PADZZ
Just to get this stupid rumor outta the way:
Does Ford own Cummins?
No, Ford does not own any part of Cummins Inc.
http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/customerassistance/faq/answers.cfm?uuid=4C4DC616-FDBD-11D3-984A0004AC33EA57
Also, in that same Diesel POwer magazine, they say that the 6.7 will be in the 2007.5 3/4 and up trucks. Cummins claims that the 6.7 will get better fuel economy and longer oil change intervals than the 5.9. If this is true, I'll be getting a 2007.5 Dually.
Posted by: LTZ
It will be a 6.7L Cummins and either an Aisan(sp?) 6spd auto or a 68re auto.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Do some homework and see what the rods and piston sizes look like between the 3 contenders... Then make your decsions. Just FYI. Published numbers are really bogus. A quick flash of the eprom, and you can gain 150 HP and several hundred ft pounds of torque on any of these. I look at reliability.. and one stands out...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Certainly I think everyone is going to stand up for the brand they drive... so the point is moot... I don't put a lot of faith in Diesel Power Mag either. Any Mag for that matter. I think there is room on the road for all of us to ride around on .. so drive what you want to... I am happy with my choice, anf that is all that is important to me. I am sure you all feel the same way.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
True, but for some of us, pulling heavy all the time, they make a lot of sense now. I actually save in fuel costs alone, the entire payment of the new truck. SO I feel the truck is free. Of course I like being able to write it off as a business expense too.
My Hemi got 6 MPG towing. My Cummins gets 17 towing even more weight. At today's prices, I save a bundle in fuel costs. Even when it is empty, I still get 1 to 3 more than my best day with the gas powered truck... and believe it or not, the Hemi actually got better milage than my old Ranger 4 banger. So it is all relative
I think you are going to see a lot of new diesels on teh market in the next couple of years. Remember that Audi just won the 24 hours of Lemans with a diesel...
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Dodge has a contract with Cummins for a new 6.7L (IIRC) diesel. (And NO, Ford doesn't own Cummins.)
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: Raceday
I worked for a dodge dealer until febuary. Dodge owns 51% of Cummins. Ford owns a small portion as an investment. I was told that Dodge would stay with the Cummins because or the "american name recognition". The closest that they have come to mercedes engines is the MDS technology on the Hemi. It was originally developed by Mercedes and then used in the Diamler Chrysler vehicles. I was also told that GM purchases this same system from DC. The diesel in the Jeep liberty is an older mercedes design with the new Bosch Commonrail injection system on it. But even it is not manufactured by Mercedes. It is built by VW Motori in Italy. And no they have nothing to do with Volkswagen.
Ford does not own ANY part of Cummins. They sold off that investment around '97 or so.
And why in the world would Dodge own a part of Cummins, when DaimlerChrysler owns Detroit Diesel?
People misinterpret all kinds of stuff.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: georged
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Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Dodge has a contract with Cummins for a new 6.7L (IIRC) diesel. (And NO, Ford doesn't own Cummins.)
I read where that contract runs through 2007 and at this point in time renewal has not been confirmed. Vehicle manufacturers are taking very close looks at model mixes for $4/gallon and beyond fuel levels.
There's supposedly a new contract through about 2015 with an R&D contract to 2012. The old contract would go through 2007 as that's when new motors need to come out.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: Raceday
According to my buddies at the Dodge dealership and the dodge website and the cummins website it will be the Cummins 610. I beleive there is a second diesel choice for the Chassis cab 3500 that is 6.7 liters. I have not even looked to see who makes it. Maybe this is where the rumors are coming from. You can go to www.dodge.com for the 2007 info.
The new Cummins 6.7 is in the 3500 Chasis. There's no reason for them to not put that in the 2500 and 3500 PU. AFAIK, the 5.9 ISB-based unit doesn't meet MY2007 emissions. The new motor is about 40% carry-over from the ISB. There's a Diesel Power Magezine out that I saw yesterday at the local Borders with about a 5 page article covering the 6.7. Not much more power coming out of it, just much cleaner. I don't even see the article listed on their web site. But I know it had that diesel competition in it. There can't be anywhere enough volume in just the 3500 Chasis Cab to make it worth it. (I would assume power adds will come later, or they are playing the wait and see card up the sleave game.)
According to the mag (and as LTZ said) it will be backed by an Aisan 6 speed auto.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Jeffin is right. And I think we covered this already.
So here's the rundown, AGAIN:
Ford will be having an evolution of the 6.0PSD from IH/Navistar pushed out to 6.4L sporting 2 turbos in series. I would expect this to be around for at least 4 years to recoup investment (6.0 was '03 through '06). Assuming the trannies will stay the same with the 5 speed Torque Shift and 6 speed manual.
Dodge will be moving a 6.7L Cummins. (5.9L ISBs aren't MY07 compliant.) Power specs are currently listed the same as the ISB-based units. Tranny will be an Aisan 6 speed auto. Assuming they'll get the Getrag (or whatever it is) 6 speed manual they just switched to.
GM will just make evolutionary changes to the 6.6 Duramax (Code LBZ?). A 6 speed Allison to replace the previous Allison 5 speed. As far as announced power, they will be on top. Wait to see what Dodge and Ford finally release before the armchair HP/Torque war breaks out.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
This really wouldn't be that early for a MY07 vehicle.
IIRC, Ford will be releasing their MY08 SDs in January '07. They did that with MY'97 on the F-150s. They can release a MY starting on Jan 1 of the prior calendar year. I.e. MY08 can be sold as of 1/1/07. IMHO the MY08 Ford SDs are UGLY. Think an Escalade front end on steroids.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
This whole rod thing kinda gets me. Of course the Cummins will have a beefier rod, it's got more displacement per cylinder.
Cummins 5.9: .83L/cyl
Cummins 6.7: 1.12L/cyl
Navistar 6.0: .75L/cyl
Navistar 6.4: .80L/cyl
Duramax 6.6: .825L/cyl
So the Cummins and the DMax are close. But here's the thing. I never hear people complaining about busting rods. Now, if the DMax and Navistar motors were throwing rods through the blocks, I could see where this would/could be an issue. I think it's really just a non-issue, unless you're going to be cranking up the power. In which case you'll probably change so many parts that it's not even close to the original factory motors.
Reminds me of people complaining that they were sending stock rods through the cases on Raptors when they were putting in 12:1 or higher pistons. DUH!
If you want to look at reports of problems then that's fine. But to say the two motors aren't worth looking at because they have lighter rods is rather bogus if there are no failures. People said the DMax would be junk when it first came out because it has an aluminum block. Nevermind that aluminum blocks are common in other countries. The aforementioned Diesel Power mag shows one DMax pushing 1200HP. I think that's testament to the strength of the block. Rods...who knows.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: jayri
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Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
This whole rod thing kinda gets me. Of course the Cummins will have a beefier rod, it's got more displacement per cylinder.
Cummins 5.9: .83L/cyl
Cummins 6.7: 1.12L/cyl
Navistar 6.0: .75L/cyl
Navistar 6.4: .80L/cyl
Duramax 6.6: .825L/cyl
So the Cummins and the DMax are close. But here's the thing. I never hear people complaining about busting rods. Now, if the DMax and Navistar motors were throwing rods through the blocks, I could see where this would/could be an issue. I think it's really just a non-issue, unless you're going to be cranking up the power. In which case you'll probably change so many parts that it's not even close to the original factory motors.
Reminds me of people complaining that they were sending stock rods through the cases on Raptors when they were putting in 12:1 or higher pistons. DUH!
If you want to look at reports of problems then that's fine. But to say the two motors aren't worth looking at because they have lighter rods is rather bogus if there are no failures. People said the DMax would be junk when it first came out because it has an aluminum block. Nevermind that aluminum blocks are common in other countries. The aforementioned Diesel Power mag shows one DMax pushing 1200HP. I think that's testament to the strength of the block. Rods...who knows.
UMMM.....I think the 5.9 Cummins would be .98L per cylinder, at least according to my calculator.
I think I have a loose connection somewhere between my eyeballs and my fingers.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
If you want fuel mileage, buy a VW TDI. j/k. Rumours abound of a 4.5L V6 diesel in Ford's F-150. But that rumour has been around for a while. It's the PSD motor in the Ford city trucks. Only issue I see is emissions for the sub-8500lb GVWR. So it might be limited to the F-150HD.
That's pretty sweet on the Audi TDI. 650HP and 850lb ft of torque.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
The biggest consumer of fuel is air resistance (of course for flat driving.) Going up a hill of course you're going add the weight. The laws of physics say that once an object is in motion, it wants to stay in motion. And 80,000lbs is a LOT more mass to keep going. I wonder if a dynamic displacement type of system (i.e. like the Hemi's ability to drop cylinders) would work well? You only need the horsepower to equal the various drags (air, mechanical) on the vehicle.
Posted by: Scooter86
Talk of a Benz diesel in the Dodge has been around as long as the merger. While it is a possibility, Dodge has sold a LOT of trucks due to the Cummins engine, and it may hurt them to switch. Of course I have also heard rumors Ford has looked into adapting a Cummins engine also. We just won't know until something shows up at a dealer.
Posted by: rescuediver
I doubt it. Just read an article the other day (I'll see if I can find it) about Ford possibly putting a Benz 4.4 (IIRC) diesel engine into their F150 with the next couple of years.
Posted by: ostrich
I wish the fuel economy war would have started when the hp war did with the diesel trucks. None of us really needs a pick-up with a 400 h.p. diesel engine in it, if I had one with 250 hp that got 25 mpg I would be happier, because I would drive it more. Ford chevy and dodge better get their act together on this, I thought about waiting to get a 6.0 but when they told me I'd get 7% better milage I took the incentives to buy a left over 7.3. Still have yet to use up enough fuel at 7% to eat up the incentives. I won't buy another new truck untill they get some more fuel efficient choices out there, we all like the ponies, but the simple truth of the matter is, my truck stays untill I can get some REAL economy improvements.
Posted by: ostrich
big rigs get 7-9 mpg pulling 80,000 lbs, so I'm not impressed with merely half unless you are pulling 40,000, if you get my drift. My dad drove over the road for 18 yrs., and we were never impressed with any gas motor for pulling a load. My 02 psd 350 drw 4x4 goes 13-16 mpg with 4.11 gears, and I'm looking for more mpg, not hp. It will pull any load that I can legally pull at any speed I can legally go, hills included. I have a 6x6 military truck and get 8-9 mpg out of it, and it has 6.72 gears, so there has to be a better solution out there in my opinion.
Posted by: JeffinTD
No, and No.
International also has a new design to meet MY07 emission standards for the Ford.
All three will have particulate filters, cooled exhaust recirculation, and likely larger displacement with lower working pressure/temp in order to make emissions.
Posted by: JeffinTD
Also, the 6.0 has beefier looking rods than the 7.3 powerstroke, but the 7.3 has a good record for reliability.
Yeah, in any of the common rail injection engines a box or programmer can turn the power way up, but if that's all you do to the motor you may be really taking a risk- of blowing up the turbo, or baking the whole motor and not having it covered under warranty.
Posted by: yellowrider250ex
www.insideline.com is a good place to check up on things like this.
Posted by: Steveo10
The rumor that i heard is that dodge is done with cummins after '07 and will have mercedes diesels. Cummins will go under FORD... this it just what i heard, but i will doubt it will happen. Cummins has done will with dodge.
I cant wait to see in a couple of yrs all theses diesel SUV's! I heard they will be able to toll like a 3/4ton
Posted by: jayri
Quote
Originally posted by: Raceday
That information was given to me by the Dodge product trainer in January of 2006.
Well this information is false. Just get on the forums at TDR or DTR with this info and you will get laughed off of there.
Posted by: jayri
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
This whole rod thing kinda gets me. Of course the Cummins will have a beefier rod, it's got more displacement per cylinder.
Cummins 5.9: .83L/cyl
Cummins 6.7: 1.12L/cyl
Navistar 6.0: .75L/cyl
Navistar 6.4: .80L/cyl
Duramax 6.6: .825L/cyl
So the Cummins and the DMax are close. But here's the thing. I never hear people complaining about busting rods. Now, if the DMax and Navistar motors were throwing rods through the blocks, I could see where this would/could be an issue. I think it's really just a non-issue, unless you're going to be cranking up the power. In which case you'll probably change so many parts that it's not even close to the original factory motors.
Reminds me of people complaining that they were sending stock rods through the cases on Raptors when they were putting in 12:1 or higher pistons. DUH!
If you want to look at reports of problems then that's fine. But to say the two motors aren't worth looking at because they have lighter rods is rather bogus if there are no failures. People said the DMax would be junk when it first came out because it has an aluminum block. Nevermind that aluminum blocks are common in other countries. The aforementioned Diesel Power mag shows one DMax pushing 1200HP. I think that's testament to the strength of the block. Rods...who knows.
UMMM.....I think the 5.9 Cummins would be .98L per cylinder, at least according to my calculator.
Posted by: jayri
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: jayri
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
This whole rod thing kinda gets me. Of course the Cummins will have a beefier rod, it's got more displacement per cylinder.
Cummins 5.9: .83L/cyl
Cummins 6.7: 1.12L/cyl
Navistar 6.0: .75L/cyl
Navistar 6.4: .80L/cyl
Duramax 6.6: .825L/cyl
So the Cummins and the DMax are close. But here's the thing. I never hear people complaining about busting rods. Now, if the DMax and Navistar motors were throwing rods through the blocks, I could see where this would/could be an issue. I think it's really just a non-issue, unless you're going to be cranking up the power. In which case you'll probably change so many parts that it's not even close to the original factory motors.
Reminds me of people complaining that they were sending stock rods through the cases on Raptors when they were putting in 12:1 or higher pistons. DUH!
If you want to look at reports of problems then that's fine. But to say the two motors aren't worth looking at because they have lighter rods is rather bogus if there are no failures. People said the DMax would be junk when it first came out because it has an aluminum block. Nevermind that aluminum blocks are common in other countries. The aforementioned Diesel Power mag shows one DMax pushing 1200HP. I think that's testament to the strength of the block. Rods...who knows.
UMMM.....I think the 5.9 Cummins would be .98L per cylinder, at least according to my calculator.
I think I have a loose connection somewhere between my eyeballs and my fingers.
LOL!!! I think they all make a pretty darn good diesel pickup nowadays
Posted by: georged
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Dodge has a contract with Cummins for a new 6.7L (IIRC) diesel. (And NO, Ford doesn't own Cummins.)
I read where that contract runs through 2007 and at this point in time renewal has not been confirmed. Vehicle manufacturers are taking very close looks at model mixes for $4/gallon and beyond fuel levels.
Posted by: georged
Quote
LOL!!! I think they all make a pretty darn good diesel pickup nowadays
Agreed, but it would also be interesting to see what Benz could come up with on their own. Their new generation diesel-engined cars are flat impressive accelerating a 3800lb car as fast as a gas-engined one, no noise, no smell and 43mpg. Makes me wonder about their thoughts on the viability of the future market for individual owner diesel pickups with continually escalating fuel costs. I just put my 2005 F350 diesel up for sale, I don't need that much truck and can see putting hundred dollar bills in the tank everytime I fuel in the very near future.
Posted by: squeege
Did you guys hear that gmc/chevy are releasing next years trucks early cause they need to start making some $$$ like now? Not sure how early...maybe a couple months...
Posted by: rtboy
Hey guys I have a dodge mega cab black with a short bed. And I heard dodge for 2007 is having a mercedes benz diesel motor is this true? I know chrysler has german parts on it. Please reply
THANKS
Posted by: rtboy
I read an artical that the contract is up with cummins and a mercedes
Posted by: rtboy
Did not know that
Posted by: flyinscrammy
Last article I read had Catipiller building the engine and Massey Fergusin building the Gear Box. 1000 ft lbs........
Posted by: flyinscrammy
Sounded valid to me B&R..... Oh well. I will continue to drive and tow with my cummins.....
Posted by: Raceday
I worked for a dodge dealer until febuary. Dodge owns 51% of Cummins. Ford owns a small portion as an investment. I was told that Dodge would stay with the Cummins because or the "american name recognition". The closest that they have come to mercedes engines is the MDS technology on the Hemi. It was originally developed by Mercedes and then used in the Diamler Chrysler vehicles. I was also told that GM purchases this same system from DC. The diesel in the Jeep liberty is an older mercedes design with the new Bosch Commonrail injection system on it. But even it is not manufactured by Mercedes. It is built by VW Motori in Italy. And no they have nothing to do with Volkswagen.
Posted by: Raceday
It was probably more than you wanted to know. Sorry if it was long.
Posted by: Raceday
That information was given to me by the Dodge product trainer in January of 2006.
Posted by: Raceday
According to my buddies at the Dodge dealership and the dodge website and the cummins website it will be the Cummins 610. I beleive there is a second diesel choice for the Chassis cab 3500 that is 6.7 liters. I have not even looked to see who makes it. Maybe this is where the rumors are coming from. You can go to www.dodge.com for the 2007 info.
Posted by: Raceday
I agree. I don't really see there being enough sales in the chassis cab by itself. It make become popular with the wrecker fleet but I think most of them are using the F450 and F550 or bigger. It is probably a wait and see game.
