Pages: 1
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
FYI: The 6.0L and 6.4L are both IH (International-Harverstor) motors. Ford does not make their diesels, and don't think they ever have. Not that Ford doesn't play with the 6.0L (some say that's the problem). The 6.4 is a derivative of the 6.0.
If one wants to get technical GM does build their trannies, they own Allison. BR>
To the OP, you should be able to drive an F-450 on your state's standard license (equal to a CA Class C). Commercial licensing doesn't kick in until 26,001 lb GVWR (some say 26K even, YMMV). Should be in the Class IV to Class V rating. (Class 7 is where Comm. licensing starts, which is set by the Feds.)
As far as ride, they won't be that great and turning radius is best listed in miles. Example, it takes AT LEAST 3 12' lanes to make a U-turn in our F-450, granted its a '94. I don't think they made them turn any better. Even the current generation is still front leaf springs. The ride empty will be very harsh. But once you get that generator on there it will probably ride like glass. Ok, maybe not that smooth, but in comparison it will be glass.
Starting with MY 2007 all the diesels will be new, well, I think GM will be using a newer 6.6 Duramax (IIRC LLZ or something like that), Dodge will move to about a 6.7L Cummins. Ford's 6.4L should be here in January or so as an '08. Unfortunately, IMHO, the new SDs from Ford are ugly. Looks like a butt ugly Escalade on steroids.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: 1BAD250R
And BLACKANDREDWARRIOR, I heard that Ford bought Cummins and that after Dodge's contract expires with Cummins in a couple of years, Dodge will need to find a new diesel producer. Is that incorrect?
Bzzt. It is incorrect. Searched around a bit on Google. My cursory search revealed that Ford used to own about 3% of outstanding Cummins stock with an investment started in 1990 with Cummins repurchasing the stock 1.3M shares in a private deal and another 1.7M in open market purchases. (Those are number of shares, not dollar values.) That was a short blurb I ran across from the New York Times. This could have been a deal for whatever reason (Cummins maybe needed cash, or whatever.) This was also when Ford still had a HD truck line (F-8000, IIRC. They sold that line off to someone, umm, not sure, maybe like Freightliner, or maybe not. FL is owned by DeimlerChrysler, doesn't matter anyways.)
This Ford-Cummins linkup is a mytch that just won't die.
Some clickies:
NY Times from 1997
Cummins site: "No, Ford does not own any part of Cummins Inc."
I've heard the Dodge ditching Cummins thing for a while. Would it happen, hard to say. Considering they are sourcing a new motor from Cummins, I would have to say not for a LONG time. If Cummins is spending the money to R&D that new motor for them (though, I'm sure they'll sell it to 3rd parties as well, just like the ISB, IIRC that's Cummins designation) it's going to be around for a while and if they are smart they will lock Dodge into a long contract.
I think those rumours really started flying when DaimlerBenz bought Chrysler since DB makes a lot of diesels in Europe. The Dodge Sprinter/Freightliner Whatevertheycallit is powered by a Benz diesel. (OT but those things seem to be a hit, seem them around Fresno a lot, plus FedEx bought a ton of them.) A lot of the new Freightliners are Benz powered.
I assume a LOT of the Dodge buyers will be tweaked if they had to change over to a MB diesel.
Though if you want a Cummins (5.9 ISB), or even a CAT (3126B 7.2L) you can get them in F-650/750 and backed by an Allison 6sp as well. There's a lot that goes into specifying the toys for the big boys. Nearly everying is a 36" frame width. Just start picking your parts. Tire sizes (IIRC either 500 or 540 revs/mile), diffs, trannies, engines. You piece them together to get the most efficient (for your use) machine available.
It's just funny that rumours start even if some truth behind them (Ford was a STOCKHOLDER in Cummins) but take on a life of their own and never die. I've heard the rumour for a while too, and knew that they didn't, but just took some time to find a reputable answer, and I'm pretty sure you can't get more reputable than the second link.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: JeffinTD
In a way, it's too bad it isn't true. If I could have an F-550 crew with an ISB in it, I'd be down at the dealership with checkbook in hand right now.
And you probably wouldn't be alone either. lol
Quote
Cummins contract with Dodge is exclusive for pickups, so you can get the 5.9 ISB Cummins in an F-650 (medium duty commercial truck, bigger than a pickup), but unfortunately they don't come in 4x4. Other choices in the F-650 is a Cat 6, and the 6.0 Powerstroke.... but I have never seen one that had the Powerstroke in it.
You can get them in 4x4, just not directly from Ford. F650pickups.com makes 4x4 conversions. To say these trucks are uselessly cool is an understatement. The 4x4 650s just scream that you have issues with the size of your manhood. (So foes the International CXT). Uterly useless for hauling 5th wheels (bed is about 6' in the air). And they'll set you back about $130K. Some areas that's a nice house on a bit of land. (Around here you can't even get an apartment turned condo in a bad area for that.) The have a deal with Ford I guess, or used to when I looked at their site a couple years ago, the 4x4 system was a Ford sourced product with warrantee. (They also do 450s and 550s as well.)
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: JeffinTD
EDIT: Oops, looks like we were both composing replies at the same time... If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ford's heavy duty line become Stirling, which is now associated somehow with Freightliner (a Diamler Chrysler company)?
Yeah that through me for a loop when I went back to the towing forum. Went err.. wtf...wait.. LOL Anyways...
Ok, it probably is Sterling (I remember the first few I saw they looked like F-750s). And yes, DC owns Sterling. I found the DC family page. DC owns the following (in the DC Truck Group):
Mercedes Benz (of course)
FUSO (formerly Mitsubishi - small Class IV or so city trucks)
Orion (public transportation buses)
And they also own Detroit Diesel (which I didn't know). They also used to own fire truck company American LaFrance.
Quote
Also, I think a lot of Dodge buyers would be hugely cheesed off if they dropped Cummins.
Maybe they'll go with a Detroit. lol. Or maybe a MB designed unit with a Detroit name tag. More pallatable to the US buyer? We've sooo gone OT from the OP.
Posted by: twentycharacters
yeah, ive heard the same negative reports on reliability about the 6.0L as well. if i recall correctly, the prior engine, the 7.3 wasnt designed solely by Ford; it was a joint deal with international. they totally bragged about the 6.0 as being their OWN design and 20% more fuel efficient etc etc...
my cousin has a 6.0L and has had no probs. he has the edge power chip and that sucker hauls! one of my firends has a 7.3 and has like 200K on it and still going strong.
on second thought i was recalling correctly this says the international/ford thing and also about the reliability of the engine and Fords troubles with it:
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=37&did=1195
got some good info in there.
All in all, they are decent trucks from what i have seen and pull like crazy, but id rather have the 7.3. If not, if its diesel - either Duramax (thank God GM dosnt make the engine or tranny) or the Dodge Cummins. The Cummins has issued the FEWEST service bulletins according to the article above...
Posted by: twentycharacters
1bad- i really wanst ragging on the international designed 7.3, i know some parts of the article hinted to that- but its really not internationals fault with the 6.0L problems when they didnt design it.
i actually said i "would rather have the 7.3" over the 6.0 if i were looking for one. There have been some undeniable probs with the 6.0l as mentioned already, but i know 2 people that havent had the problms with them.. That 7.3 is great. my friend has over 200K on it as mentioned above with no problems so i do know they are tough. really wasnt trying to say they were not. I remember that engine before the "superduty" in yet another friends dad's truck and they never had anything bad to say about it either.
but if i were buying NEW, id go Duramax or Dodge w/ the Cummins. Since the 7.3L is history. I hope FORD's 6.4 is better in 2008. or see what toyota/nissan comes out with. you know its on their agenda to equip their trucks with diesel engines in the near future as they are more serious about competing now with the BIG 3 and are starting to take marketshare away in this segment so they are not going to back down anytime soon.
Posted by: twentycharacters
Quote
If one wants to get technical GM does build their trannies, they own Allison.
warrior- how about that. GM bought them in 1929! I hope they keep their hands off the good stuff and not water it down and make it crap. looks like they bought them and for the most part left them alone and facilitate them...
anyway, id rather have ALLISON than a normal GM tranny. Something is definitely different and better with Allisons reputation than the (ab)normal GM line.
The list is countless of problems that I and others have experienced with GM trannies. I recent replaced mine in my Chevy @ 49K. Terrible quality for anything. I hear nothing BUT GOOD from the ALLISON stuff. Well, I dont care who is their owner as long as they dont start screwing around with it! on a side note, i think GM should have never bought SAAB. They will prob cut them and the executives at SAAB are pissed b/c GM sold their factories so if they wanted to split from GM it will be much more difficult to make cars again by them selves...
Ford bought Cummins,hmmmmm....what happens w/ international now? I seem to remember reading in M/T or car&Driver that the 6.0 had nothing to do with IH any more- that it was an all new design, all by Ford supposed to be stronger, more fuel efficient, etc... Ford bragged about it or maybe they just forgot to mention IH...who knows but im its good that somebody does. not to get too far off topic but the FORD tractors and stuff- who made their engines for them? IH? i know ford sold off (or did they) their tractor division to New Holland....Is Ford involved behind the scenes?
Anyway all great info to know for anyone insterested in diesels....
Posted by: 1BAD250R
The Ford Super Dutys are great trucks. But Ford has had a lot of problems with the 6.0. I say this from personal experience and by reading the top auto magazines. I have known 2 guys that have had serious problems with their '03 and '04 6.0 Super Duties. The guy with the '03 had to have the engine pulled out and serviced by Ford. It was covered under the warranty, but the truck only had 35,000 on it for crying out loud. They may have worked out the problems for '06-'07, but if you can wait another year they will be replacing the 6.0 with a new 6.4 Power Stroke in 2008.
Posted by: 1BAD250R
Twentycharacters, the 7.3s are tough as nails. I have never heard of anyone having trouble with their 7.3 Power Stroke. My Pops searched for a low-mileage 7.3 for 6 months before he bought the truck in my pics page (it only had 50,000 miles on it and was always serviced by a Ford dealer). He wanted a new Super Duty, but he was not excited about buying a truck with a 6.0. His 7.3 has a full K&N intake, a Diablo chip, and a 4 inch exhaust sytem....it sounds like a Kenworth coming down the road!
Posted by: 1BAD250R
Quote
Originally posted by: twentycharacters
1bad- i really wanst ragging on the international designed 7.3, i know some parts of the article hinted to that- but its really not internationals fault with the 6.0L problems when they didnt design it.
No, I understood what you meant. I was just reaffirming your statement that the 7.3s are durable engines. Sorry if my post sounded like I was countering your post, actually I agreed with it. And BLACKANDREDWARRIOR, I heard that Ford bought Cummins and that after Dodge's contract expires with Cummins in a couple of years, Dodge will need to find a new diesel producer. Is that incorrect?
Posted by: JeffinTD
Well, they did have problems with the 6.0, especially the early ones. Obviously not everyone had problems, in fact most probably were fine.
I do like the Ford truck the best, as far as styling and interior, but I liked the way the Cummins runs better. If you are looking for an auto, the Chevy would be my choice for the Allison.
Here's a couple of articles:
Detroit News
Auto Week
I'd personally be a bit leery about getting one of the early engines with 07 emissions from any of the big three. They might turn out to be more efficient, more powerful, cleaner and reliable, but I would prefer to let someone else make sure all the bugs are worked out.
Posted by: JeffinTD
Ford once had money in a stock fund, that included about 10% of Cummins, which started that rumor. Ford no longer ownes any part of Cummins, but the rumors continue...
There is even a link on Cummins's web page about that.
In a way, it's too bad it isn't true. If I could have an F-550 crew with an ISB in it, I'd be down at the dealership with checkbook in hand right now.
Cummins contract with Dodge is exclusive for pickups, so you can get the 5.9 ISB Cummins in an F-650 (medium duty commercial truck, bigger than a pickup), but unfortunately they don't come in 4x4. Other choices in the F-650 is a Cat 6, and the 6.0 Powerstroke.... but I have never seen one that had the Powerstroke in it.
EDIT: Oops, looks like we were both composing replies at the same time... If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ford's heavy duty line become Stirling, which is now associated somehow with Freightliner (a Diamler Chrysler company)?
Also, I think a lot of Dodge buyers would be hugely cheesed off if they dropped Cummins. DC likes to talk about German engineering, but if you go look at JD Power or Comsumer Reports, their reliability is behind American brands, and way behind Japaneese brands. A combination of Inverse Demand Curve (people think they are better because they are expensive) and a marketing triumph.
Posted by: JeffinTD
Yeah, I suppose we shouldn't totally hijack the thread...
Back on topic... If I were to need a truck in the 16000 GVWR range, and couldn't wait for the 4500 or 5500 Dodge cab and chassis or to wait and see how the new power stroke does...
I'd probably look hard at the Chevy 5500 4x4 Duramax. They are bigger/wider than a pickup, and look pretty cool. Cab is pretty utilitarian, but their price isn't that much more than a fully loaded 3500 (probably around $50k by the time you chew them down on price, and put a flat bed on the chassis). The 6500 can be driven with a normal license (at least in Oregon) and comes with a Cat 6 that is more of a commercial engine, but then you can't get factory 4x4.
Other options: Look for a good, low milage 7.3 Ford F-550... or if you can live w/o 4WD think about F-650 with the Cat or Cummins. Yeah, they can be upfitted to 4x4, but you get into "major spendy" range.
If you had lots of money to spend, the M-2 class Freightliners are pretty nice. Though they don't list 4x4 as an option on their web page, I saw a SWAT truck the other day that was fulltime allwheel drive and appeared to have been factory that way. I know International will also make 4x4's for fire/rescue rigs, too. Either of those is likely to be more than twice as much as the Chevy 5500 (or Ford F-450), but it could be a case of you get what you pay for if you plan on putting hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles on the thing.
Anyhow, here's a link to Chevy's m/d trucks.Chevy 5500
Posted by: JeffinTD
Hey, having a local dealer that you have a relationship with and trust is something I would factor highly in the decision, too.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Posted by: JeffinTD
Well, DC did choose a Mercedes diesel to power their sprinter vans, a 2.7 5 cylinder, I believe, but I really doubt they will stray from the Cummins in their pickups. They are profitable and selling well (relatively, compared to the rest of the industry) and I don't think they would be foolish enough to mess with one of their better performing product lines.
It would be kind of like Harley Davidson deciding to power all their bikes with 4 cylinders made in China...
Posted by: JeffinTD
Quote
bastard local dealer just sold the last 4wd
Perhaps you could go to the local dealer and let them use their inventory locator to find one set up like you want, and then they can arrange to trade for it and have it transferred...
If you are going to have a 6.0, buying it from a local dealer that you know will stand behind it could be important.
Posted by: JeffinTD
Cool. Enjoy the new truck, and let us know how you like it.
Posted by: yellowrider250ex
Get a chevy, with a d-max we have 103,000 miles on our 2002 model and no serious problems, And alot of power
Posted by: georged
Other than towing/load capacity, basically same truck as F250/350. I have a '05 F350 6.0L and it drives like a passenger car.
Posted by: georged
Quote
Quote
Also, I think a lot of Dodge buyers would be hugely cheesed off if they dropped Cummins.
Maybe they'll go with a Detroit. lol. Or maybe a MB designed unit with a Detroit name tag. More pallatable to the US buyer? We've sooo gone OT from the OP.
MB 2005+ diesel passenger cars are considered state of the art for diesel power, so that technology and development platform is there and promoted by management. Is Cummins financially and development viable or not desirable as an acquisition/joint venture versus home grown would be the issue.
(apology for tangent)
Posted by: squeege
We are lookin at gettin one within the next 2 weeks.....I'll be driving it west to pickup a mounted 600amp generator....Questions? How muck should it cost? Any problems with these? Can any old idiot drive one of these? ect... suggestions?
The F-450 Super Duty Chassis Cabs have a GVWR of 16,000 lbs .......This is key
Posted by: squeege
We can't wait cause we have a brand new $40,000 generator to mount on the back and it's just sitting till it's mounted.
Posted by: squeege
Thanks for all the great info.....I'll let you know what develops in the next week with this...
I think we should check out the chevy 5500 as an option....problem is that we try to keep the business local with the big truck dealer around here cause we have 4 other trucks that get serviced there.....problem is they don't sell chevy....
Posted by: squeege
2006 Ford F-450 6.0L Turbo Diesel, 4WD
so far $38,500 pretty much loaded...includes the flatbed, tow package, plow package, cdplayer, power options....ectnot a local dealer
bastard local dealer just sold the last 4wd
Posted by: squeege
Just put $1000 down on the next one comming in.....It's blue...I here the blue ones run better
