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Posted by: EasterEgg
There has been a lot of discussion in the recent past about the ability of a half ton towing capacity.
If one was so inclined could he safely add to his capacity or make it easier for the vehicle to tow the max by doing the following mods to the example truck.
Truck= 02 GMC Sierra 4x2 4.8 auto with tow/haul mode, factory trailer package and 3:73 gears
Engine mods= exhaust, intake and chip
Diff mods= 4:10 gears
Brakes= vented performance rotors and pads
If this truck had these mods how comfortable would one feel towing at the factory rated limit of 6400 lbs? Towing in NY and PA is hilly but most of the trips would be short 3 hrs or less with 2 long 10+ hrs trips per year.
Installing all these mods myself I estimate the cost to be about $2500. I looked at trading in for a 3/4 ton but the stealers say my truck is only worth $11k with 18k miles and perfect condition.
Posted by: EasterEgg
I agree with the whole truck especially the frame being larger on a 3/4 or 1 ton but how can there be such a large difference in towing capacities based on engine size and gearing for the same 1/2 ton truck? These are the specs from the manual of the 1500 Sierra.
4.3 V6 3.42 5000 max trailer 9500 GCWR
4.8 V8 3.42 6400 max trailer 11000 GCWR = my truck
4.8 V8 3.73 7400 max trailer 12000 GCWR
5.3 V8 3.42 7400 max trailer 12000 GCWR
5.3 V8 3.73 8400 max trailer 13000 GCWR
As you can see there is a big difference (3400 lbs) between the 2 extremes. I'm assuming GM doesn't have different frames for each combination.
I made a mistake before, my truck has the 3.42 ratio not the 3.73. Based on these factory specs by increasing the hp & torque and lowering the ratio to 3:73 my truck could handle the 8400 max trailer. Now I'm NOT looking to tow that much only about 6500.
Trailer = 4800 dry
2 atv's = 1200 wet
gear = 500
The trailer will be towed without water to save weight and the quads won't be fueled or any fuel carried until we get as close as posible.
Is there anyone that has a 1/2 ton GM truck capable of the higher weights and have any experience pulling that much weight?
Posted by: EasterEgg
Thanks !!!
I think I'm going to give it a try atleast once if it's too much then so be it.
Yes diesel is the way to go but the lack of engine braking concerns me and the bodies rust away around here before that diesels even broke in
Posted by: EasterEgg
I've never owned or worked on a lot of diesels so I could be wrong here but...
I thought in a diesel engine you needed to add a "jake brake" exhaust valve to increase the back pressure for good engine braking.
I'm was also going by the comment of a contractor friend that went from a gas to a diesel and complained of needing to replace brake pads more often.
Sorry for the assumption
Posted by: EasterEgg
There is a lot more discussion here than I anticipated.This is good.
As I stated in the begining I am NOT towing over the max listed for my truck with the options I have but I will be within a couple hundred pounds. Towing approx. 6200-6300 lbs Max=6400
In the owners manual GM STATES that if my truck had ONLY a larger engine and lower gear ratio that rating would increase a ton to 8400 lbs. They say NOTHING about frame, brakes, suspension ect...
So I'm assuming that these components are capable of the highest rating since the manufacturer doesn't list optional ones. IMO
Posted by: EasterEgg
I decided to get a bigger truck instead.
Posted by: EasterEgg
I agree washing and waxing will help with slowing down the corrosion. Here in NY however the problem is the rock salt used in the winter it excellerates the natural rusting process. Also washing in the winter can only happen when it's above freezing if you still want to open a doorBR>Typically the rockers panels, cab corners and cab mounts are the first to rust through but each model/manufacturer is a little different. Until I bought the 02 Sierra I never had a new truck always used so I will have to see how it holds up. A typical year for me is only 6k miles YES I only have to change my oil 2 times a year. But it is still exposed to the ellements 365 days a year. Before I bought this truck I had a 91 Suburban I bought in 97 with 80K it had 112K when I traded it in 02. The body still looked ok with only a few holes but I could take a ballpeen hammer and put a hole through the driver side front cab mount because it was so thin from rust. I concider this to be unsafe. This was a guage I learned many years ago.
The wind drag is a good point and I believe Dodge is one of the few manufacturers that have you calculate the frontal area of the trailer as part of the equation in determining your maximum towing capacity.
Posted by: Sandgod
I have airbags on my F-150.. They add 3000lbs capacity. I don't tow a toy hauler or anything like that. I have a rack that goes in my hitch that carrys the Z400. 400lbs hanging waaaaay past the rear wheels and the Dale in the bed. The tail was wagging the dog. The rear end was sagging quite a bit. The airbags fixed it completely.. Good thing is you can run them w/ or w/o the air in them.. I paid 325 installed...
Posted by: Sandgod
Over 3000 miles and no issues.. If you have ever been to Glamis the road to the north is a paved version of a roller coaster. Tremendous stress put on the chassis at the bottom of each little roller coaster type hill. We have those same roller coaster hills in Utah on the way to the dunes here also. Many many trips and still not even a hint of a problem.. My friend had his airbags for ten years on an old 88 1/2 ton Chev w/ a big heavy camper in the bed and towing an atv trailer. He never had a problem either... I bought my airbags from Napa Auto parts.. I would think a world class company like Napa wouldn't sell a product that could kill you. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, anything can happen in life, there is no guarantees. Anyway,,,,, this is my experience w/ airbags...
Posted by: LOWBOWTIE
I know all of you guys that are into the GVW's and such may have a few comments. But here goes... For all you guys who own 1/2 Silverado's/ Sierra's. Go to your local wrecking yard and pick up a set of 2500 HD rear leaf springs and they will bolt in your truck. They help with the overly soft 1/2 ton springs if you tow alot. They will raise the back of your truck about 1 1/2" to 2". This could be a problem if your truck isnt lifted at all cause stock they are almost 2" high anyways. Just another option for some,That don't want your truck to drop 3" with 500 lbs of tonge wt.
I plan on lifting my 99 Silverado and using 2500HD springs and a shorter block than the lift recommends to level it out.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Before you change anything in the rear end, contact the guys like Gear venders or some of the other aftermarket dealers that do overdrive/under drive units to get their read on the issue. They may have different options. Looking at the suspension in the rear... your sag can be helped by helper springs, or even air bags. (both normally a bolt on)
The bags are rated pretty high...and may be worth a look. (www.airride.com) Upgrades to the braking system may also be in order, but the trailer will need it's own braking capability no matter what. You can consider upgrading the brakes, with several aftermarket dealers out there to assist.
If your truck sticker indicated it can pull up to 8000+ and you intend to remain in the 6K area, you should not have any problems.. Just change the gear oil in the rear end regularly. Dodge recommends every 15000 when operating in this environment.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
My recommendations were given because the person indicated that the trailer would be around 6000#, and his tow rating GVWR was over 8000. All well within the manufacturer's guidelines... Use of airbags or helper springs CAN safely return the ride height to factory specifications due to the approximate tongue weight of 1000#, which the truck would still be within the half ton rating, although at admittedly at the maximum range... however I agree that it is still incumbant upon the consumer to keep things well within the manufacturer's specs for his vehicle's GVWR.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Thats cool... and if you decide to go with an underdrive unit, you can still keep your current rear gear ratio so you don't sacrifice gas milage when you are not towing anything... Not much you can do about the engine size though without spending serious cash... at that point a larger rated truck may just be cheaper...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Huh? Say What? I thought a Jake brake was nothing more than a compression release on a diesel truck and uses the engine compression to slow the truck without using the brakes.... don't think it touches the braking system.... Don't think they work on gas motors either
Posted by: Dragginbutt
One other comment that I want to add... towing weight is only part of the deal... You need to understand that the shape of the trailer has a lot of influence on how well it is towed as well. If you are going from a pop up to a full height trailer, the air is going to influence how it pulls. In a headwind, you can litterally add thousands of pounds of force that you have to overcome, depending on how tall the trailer is etc. Side winds also can introduce sway etc.. so all of this must be considered.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
With the gears you'll be able to accelerate and climb better, but your mileage will tank.
You can look to add power to help out pulling, but you can't increase the capacities. The entire vehicle is working together. Usually, the engine isn't the limiter in what you can tow. It's the rest of the vehicle. The stiffness of the chassis. Look at a 1/2 ton frame, then a 3/4 or one ton...then look at like a class 4 or 5 truck, then a big rig. There's a BIG difference. Same with breaks. And I think those vented brakes aren't for towing, but I could be wrong. Same with the ceramic pads.
Either try to sell you truck privately for more money, or take the hit from the dealer. Mods on trucks are like mods on quads, you don't get your money from them. 3/4 ton and above diesels for for about $45K out here in CA. Not sure about back east. And the used market is nothing. People are holding on to them. Gassers can be had cheap.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
New or old diesel they all have engine braking. It comes from the compression of the motor (diesels are up around 16:1 at least).
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: LittleBill
changing the gear ratio, will in fact change your towing capacity, it will definetly help, your going to run it hard, but take your time and you will probably do fine
This is ONLY true, if the manufacturer issues a different tow capacity based on the rear gears. Otherwise, it will only make you tow the limit more capably, with an offset in fuel economy. Rarely does the rear gear ratio actually have an effect on the capacity of a vehicle to tow. There's more than getting power to the ground. It's the brakes, the frame, the tranny. And just because you change those, doesn't mean it will change what you can safely tow.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Quote
Originally posted by: Sandgod
I have airbags on my F-150.. They add 3000lbs capacity.
Did Ford certify this additional weight? I didn't think so. The airbags keep you from getting sag from the weight. They don't actually increase your load capacity, just because the salesman and the box said so. Will the bag maker indemnify you in any lawsuits if someone claims you overloaded your vehicle? Didn't think so either.
People need to remember, unless someone is willing to sign a new GVWR, GCWR, etc. then you can't increase capacity. You can do the limit more capably, in certain areas. But that's it.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
I'm not bagging on air bad (forgive the bad pun). What I'm saying is they don't increase the LEGAL amount of weight that you haul/tow. Yes, they do work wonders for trucks. Lighter weight main springs for a better ride, but still having the ability to carry a LOT of weight. Gotta be a reason why it seams like all the new big rigs are running them.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Easter, you are probably in an OK position then. You will stress your motor more (and maybe the tranny), with towing at your max. But everything else is probably tip top since you are on a "low power" motor (compared to what is available in the truck.)
SOmeone noted air bags before and I would say try a set (I have no idea how much cash they are) and they should help with any sag from the load.
A Gear Vendor would also be a good idea. They run about $3,000 though, plus installation. It's much like adding a 2-speed automatic on the output shaft of you tranny (like a transfer case would sit.) They also will work with your ECU. It will basically double your gears. The truck will shift like this 1-1over-2-2over-etc. etc. This will also give you better gas mileage when you get to your standard OD, tehn get ANOTHER OD on top of that. You can also disengage the GV unit (needed if you have 4WD). You end up with an 8-speed automatic. You will stay in your powerband more and each shift the motor will drop less RPMs.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
I know someone who has an on board AC in his RAM 2500. He just hooks up 4 of those yellow coil hoses and lets it run. Though he was popping fuses/relays last time we were all at Pismo.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Yeah I seen deanz comment yesterday and just left it alone. My understanding is that it increases compression braking from the motor. As if 16:1+ compression breaking ISN'T enough. hehehe. I know guys, it's a joke.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Ford also list a Maximum Frontal Area in their towing guide as well. And it's not all that much. IIRC, it's the combined truck and trailer. Most of the Taj Mahal 5th wheels go WAY over the frontal area maximum.
Posted by: ShadyRascal
I used to use a F150 w/ 5.4 litre and grossly over taxed it. Pulled a 22' 5th wheel (about 5000#) with my 4 wheeler trailer hooked behind that (about 3000#) and pulled it up over these high passes we have out here. Did it that way for years. It was a lot of work for the truck, but it would do it. I changed the tranny fluid EVERY year with the flush-out system that some quicky-lube places have.
I got to wanting more power and so I put a Powerdyne belt driven 6 lb supercharger on it. Really pulled the hills then baby. But, all the extra strain started setting "check engine" lights off etc. I regretfully sold it and got a diesel.
The moral of my story is that I think you are well within your limits if you can stand the power level you are at.
Posted by: ShadyRascal
Yeah and to agree with Black and Red you can't give gas trucks away around here, the V10 and Chevy big block pigs hold no value. All people want are diesels cause they work so dang good.
Posted by: ShadyRascal
With my Duramax in the tow/haul mode, you tap the brakes coming down the pass it does the downshift thing. Love it, sounds like a big rig BR>
bbddddddddddddddd!
Posted by: powerstroke01
Quote
Originally posted by: EasterEgg
Thanks !!!I think I'm going to give it a try atleast once if it's too much then so be it.Yes diesel is the way to go but the lack of engine braking concerns me and the bodies rust away around here before that diesels even broke inhr>
Lack of engine braking? Have you driven one of the new diesels? Ive never driven a gasser but i can tell you that the engine braking is awsome.. I barely use the brakes on our 02 F250. I just downshift.
Posted by: powerstroke01
Quote
Originally posted by: EasterEgg
I've never owned or worked on a lot of diesels so I could be wrong here but...I thought in a diesel engine you needed to add a "jake brake" exhaust valve to increase the back pressure for good engine braking.I'm was also going by the comment of a contractor friend that went from a gas to a diesel and complained of needing to replace brake pads more often.Sorry for the assumptionhr>
The exhaust brake is because deisel trucks can tow MUCH heavier loads than gassers do and if you can get it moving you need to get it stopped.. The backpressure on any vehicle wont be enough do get some things stopped... But if diesel wasnt around and the gas motor was the only way then there would be some sort of technology much like the exhaust brake around...
And maybe your freind liked to use the brakes.. lol Driving style will do that. Weve got 57000 on our 2002 and are on the same pads and rotors..
Posted by: Illus
You have to remember, those towing max weights also take into consideration the configuration of the truck. Regular cab, extended cab, crew cab, PLUS long or short beds on all of the above. The towing capacity of your vehicle is affected by how much your vehicle weighs, isn't it? I know my 02 1500 extended cab, short bed 4X4, 5.3 V8 has a smaller towing capacity than my buddies 2002 regular cab long bed 2X4, 5.3 V8. The same goes for the payload of the bed, it's like 1470 lbs in mine, and 1950 lbs in his.
I tow a 26 foot coachman catalina travel, 4400 lbs, and have a 2 quad platform in the bed of the truck for the Lakotas, which makes my bed payload at about 1200 lbs, and with the weight distrobution bars on the trailer, I tow level...
A GREAT place for more info on this kind of topic is www.rv.net they have a forum for every style of trailer, and towing situation, tow vehicles included.
Posted by: TRV
Same situation! I have a 2002 Dodge Dakota 4WD crew cab with tow package, 4.7 V-8 and 3.92 ratio gears. It is rated to tow a max of 5750 pounds. I tow a Coleman popup and fully loaded for a Colorado trip it does fine but that is with only 2500 pounds max total weight. I too have looked at a Toybox camper but the only thing that will work weight wise is a 16 footer. Starcraft is making a popup with a front loading station on the tongue for an ATV now so might want to look there. I would not waste the money modifying the existing truck. I tossed it around too but will get a Ford crew cab diesel with 8 foot bed next time! If you go overweight on the towing capacity your asking for trouble. I feel most of the listed towing capacities on the 1/2 ton and lighter trucks are actually too high given the suspension and brakes etc. the trucks have. I once towed a heavy tandem trailer with 3 quads, 3 guys, and all of our gear to Kentucky and figured it was about 5300 pounds and it pulled it just fine but was very scary to stop all that weight!
Posted by: rldbobcat
I just recently sold my 99 1500 Z71 4x4 5.3L truck for a 01 2500 4x4 Duramax. There is a huge difference and a dont know if I will ever go back to another gas truck, and this is my first diesel. Anyways with my 99 1500 I towed a 20ft flatbed bumper hitch aprox 2,000 lbs empty. I towed my race car aprox 3000 lbs. Stock the truck could handle it but it worked it pretty hard. I added 3,000lb super springs which were great, they are built to adjust to the load so your truck rides like stock when unloaded and when its loaded it does not squat hardly at all. I also added a K&N cold air induction kit and dual flowmaster exhaust. I believe it had 373 gears but not sure. With all of that the truck would handle and pull the weight just fine. It was hard on the transmission even with tow/haul and the trans did go out at 125,000. So another addition you will want to be sure to make is a good trans cooler because the GM trans in the 1500s are not built for towing they overheat and go out. My bro in law has almost an identical truck to yours and I have drivin it and would say your going to want some serious upgrades if you are pulling with it on a reg basis. The biggest towing weaknesses on your truck are suspension, trans, and gearing. Yes your truck will pull the weight the way it is but it really has to work at it. So at minimum get helper springs, heaver springs, air bags, ect. Install a good trans cooler, and deff regear to 373 at least to help your motor, but if you drive more than you tow then your gas milage is going to drop.
Now for the new truck. I dont have to do a thing with it and it has lots of power in reserve to use. Where the old didnt want much more. And the biggest benifit of the new truck is that Im getting 17-18 mpg unloaded where as the 6.0L and up are getting 8-14 mpg unloaded if they are lucky. And Im getting better milage loaded than the gassers are unloaded. I also drive 70 miles a day and need a heavy truck for farm use so its the perfect fit for me. And I have never been a big diesel fan but after I tried it I dont know how I will ever go back to another gas. They are just so far ahead of the gassers in efficiency, durabilitly, and reliability. And if your looking at dodge then I would look the other way quick. They are the worst for fuel economy in gas and I do know others with dodge diesels and they are getting 8 mpg loaded and 14 at best unloaded. And my grandpa's half ton hemi gets a great 10-14 mpg where my 5.3 chevy was getting 16 at worst and most of the time 17mpg. And he drives very similar to me as far as mainly highway/some in town driving. Good luck and if you have any other questions that I might not have covered let me know.
Posted by: Trasher
That's what I was thinking as I read this post. All these mods will not increase the towing weight but just make the towing safer and easier.
Posted by: UGLY88
I think you will be fine with the add ons you listed. The truck already has the tow haul mode tranny wich is good and the extra gears will help from taxing the engine/tranny on take off and gear shifts. Once you have your trailer and gear hooked up if your truck sags then add the airbags or helper springs. The Discs and pads are a good idea but can probably wait until you need a brake job as long as you stay under the manufacturer tow weight of 8400. Stay away from cross drilled rotors as they crack easier. Vented discs is all you need to evacuate the gases quicker to prevent brake fade. Have fun as the truck will feel like a real power house with 4:10 gears in it. Keep your wallet handy for gas though.
Posted by: UGLY88
The original poster has already stated that he is not going to go over the specified limit for his truck. He posted earlier that he has literature that states a tow rating of 8400# for a factory equipped truck with the same frame and brake components, however he is only going to 6400# which is the limit of his truck as it sits now. All the changes are going to do is make his truck tow the 6400# easier.
Posted by: rescuediver
Just because air bags, helper springs or the likes, say they are rated for a certain amount of weight, doesn't mean by throwing them on your truck that it increases the weight limits of that vehicle too. It won't the GVW, is just that, the weight of the bags doesn't transfer to the truck tooThere are other factors that have already been mentioned that come into play too. Napa and all the other places are legally selling the product. It's you, the consumer who is utilizing it in the wrong fashion. Therefore, they are not liable, you are. If, you are in a wreck and found to be over loaded. which might be the case, then, your insurance company might turn on you and fight to not cover you. I have a friend who has a 1/2 ton chevy 4x4, he put airbags on it to lift the rear end from his heavy trailer. After a couple of months, guess what happen? He bent the frame, I'll have to take a picture and post it. Now, who do you think is at fault here, GMC, air bag company, parts store where the air bags were purchase from, or the Owner who had it installed?
Don't ask a truck that's not built for the job, to do it. It's not worth your life or your fellow travelers life. Enough preaching, Ride Safely
Posted by: rescuediver
Dragginbutt, I wasn't attacking your post. Sorry, if it seemed that wayt. Dan
Posted by: rescuediver
Easter, If you can increase your tow weight by improving different components from the manufacturero for it. Your manual is your proff of the vehicles capabilitiespparently, your truck is in the stock lower end of its potential and has plenty of room for growthBR>
As far as airbags, you can get them as low as around $250 or so. You can get more expensive by having an on board air compressor for airing up your air bags while on the go, fill you tires after airring down at Pismo, or after fixing a flat. It's an on baord air compressor. Just need a long coil hose and fittings
Posted by: rescuediver
Sounds like he needs to rewire it. Pulling to much power from what he wired it to
Posted by: DSengineer
EasterEgg,
I have a similar truck but with a 5.3. It is a 4x2 and the biggest issue I found when towing my boat (5000lbs) was the weak rear springs on the chevy 4x2's. The back end would sag and bounce around like crazy running over uneven road. I installed a set of air bags between the rear leaf and frame and it made a huge difference in firming up the back end.
For what its worth my next truck will definately be a 3/4 ton.
Posted by: deanz400
a jake brake just uses the compresion off the exaust to pulsate your brakes , kind of like anti-lock brakes , thatway the brakes don't over heat as easy .
Posted by: Cheapass
Quote
Originally posted by: EasterEgg
...and the bodies rust away around here before that diesels even broke inhr>
I see this a lot. I have lived in many locations, and my vehicles do not rust.
Why?
You're gonna call me a liar, but it's because I wash them. A lot. Anytime it snows, I wash. Otherwise they get washed every 2 weeks, top and bottom, and inside the engine compartment. Something I learned as a kid from Grandad, who has always had amazing long life out of his vehicles. Reinforced in the Marines working on aircraft, and seeing first hand the difference a failure of corrosion control (Fancy term for "Wash that bird, Private!") makes on aircraft.
I also wax them, but I do it the lazy way with spray on wax. I'm not after the shine, I'm after the added protection.
I have lived in N. Carolina, South Texas, N. Texas, Colorado, Oklahoma, Okinawa, and S California. None of my vehicles have had significant rust, and I tend to keep them till they are 15 years old or so. In Okinawa, the rust is bad, and very very invasive. I looked for a vehicle that had been kept well, and washed regularly, and continued that the two years I owned it. It was 6 years old when I sold it to leave, and not a speck of rust. Most cars in Okinawa are rusty by the time they are 3 years old, and in a junkyard by 5, due to rust. Very polluted, salty, and wet air there.
Posted by: LittleBill
changing the gear ratio, will in fact change your towing capacity, it will definetly help, your going to run it hard, but take your time and you will probably do fine
Posted by: jpsdiving
In the future if you can put it in your budjet, why don't you consider an upgrade to a 3/4 or 1 ton for hauling, no fuss, jus a truck built for what we do. just my 2 cents worth, but an idea to mull over.
Posted by: Sean99TJ
There is one down side to this idea, if you are in an accident and you are exceeding the limits of your tow rig you can be held at least partially at fault wether you were or not. "You were unable to rapidly manuever your vehicle and trailer due to the excessive weight to avoid the accident"
