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Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: luvthemudyes, but doesn't a heavier tire take more torque to turn?
No, not more torque because torque doesn't work that way. The available torque will just take longer to do it. But the difference of a pound or so isn't gonna be noticable. You can pick up that much weight in mud on your wheels and tires. Can you tell the difference then? The only way I know is to look for the mud on the wheels and tires or a bad shimmy in the bars. Rule of thumb, Torque and gear ratio control acceleration; Horsepower at a given RPM determines top speed.
I changed some B-52 bomber tires and I can attest to heavy tires being a horse power thief. It takes a lot of enery to get a 1045 pound tire rolling and keep it rolling. My example would be that its not to hard to keep a car tire rolling across the ramp - but one would be plenty out of breath to move one of those bomber tires the same distance. Based on moving a lot of tires around - I would say that you don't get back in momentum the energy you put into acceleration. Not at all. Must be a drag and resistance to movment issue. Don't know the math really, I've just been plenty out of breath after the wheel cart broke and had to walk the darn thing back to the hanger.
Based on that expereince I would agree that heavier tires rob performance on any vehicle. But also - what percent increase in weight becomes preceivable to the average rider is subjective at best.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
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But we aren't talking about 1000+ lbs tires here. We are talking a pound or two difference at the most. And still engine torque is differnet than trying to roll a tire by hand. Torque is a constant pressure not intemittent like trying to roll by hand. This stuff is old physics and can be calculated, but the real power robber is a change in overall gear ratio by a larger diameter tire. BTW, I have also dealt with big airplane tires which have as many as 60 plys and aren't anything like we are taking here.
But I was talking about 1000 lbs tires - try to keep up son. I think the rest of the readers understood the example given. And I did say that weight difference might be hard to preceive by the rider. Do you ever read all the words Bear? LOL Engine torque is different then rolling a tire by hand - My god man - you should have that published! Torque is not a constant pressure - it changes with engine RPM - ever see a torque to RPM graph? It often looks like a big lump in the middle of the paper.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
If were going to get all technical and stay on topic (thats pretty rare by itself) -
Ive rode a number of machines with a variety of tires and I can't say I've seen anything do outstandingly better in that deep of snow. I've heard stories but I have one also - I've gone up hills in the snow with my stock carlisles that guys with big lug tractor tires with CHAINS barely made it up. So go figure.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
It's called rider skill level and most of the "I need bigger and better tires and more horsepower" guys lack it. A great driver with average equipment will beat an average driver with great equipment everytime.
Thanks Bear - I'll take that as complement!
Posted by: luvthemud
common sense says that a heavier tire is harder to turn. try rolling a tire up a hill. it is going to take more energy to get the heavier tire up then the lighter stock tire, your atv must also exert this when driving. when i put on my mudlites i noticed acceleration and top speed difference. actually a bigger tire would make you go faster wouldn't it?!? one revolution of a 28 inch tire takes you farther then one revolution of a 25 inch and the quads final gear is still spinning the same?? so how come the loss of speed? same thing with studding a snowmobile, it technically isn't taking any horsepower away from the sled but rotating the added weight of the studs will trim some speed off of it. simple law of rotating mass. only thing that makes sense to losing acceleration and top speed would be the added weight. now if a 28 inch tire would weigh less then a stock 25 inch tire you would be on to something. but also to be figured in are the lugs on a mud tire which penetrate the ground and hold you up a little bit, same as with sleds again, a shorter lugged track will have a little higher top speed on snow then a bigger lugged track. that is my opinion. it would be neat to see some dyno tests though! maybe a test with only a rim on, then the stock tire, then the mud tire. anyone have a dyno?
Posted by: luvthemud
yes, but doesn't a heavier tire take more torque to turn?
Posted by: luvthemud
if you were to replace your stock dunlops with 27 inch itp m/s's you would add over 10 pounds to each wheel. so it isn't a difference of a pound or so. exactly you would add 42 pounds combined. also throw an extra pound of mud that normally wouldn't stick to your stockers and you are adding even more. quite a bit of weight. if weight was no issue itp wouldn't sell aluminum rims.
Posted by: luvthemud
nobody is saying that the stock size isnn't the best, we are just having a nice discussion about wether or not adding a heavier tire will cause loss of top speed and acceleration, at least that is what i thought we were talking about.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: calsatman
i wasnt happy with my stock tires either and i put on a set of stock size dirt devils and it made a huge improvement. these tires arent pure mud tires but they seem to work well in all the conditions ive rode in. and the other advantage is they are lighter than a pure mud tire so there isnt any power loss. just my opinion but these tires are worth a look.
Can anyone tell me where this theory that heavier tire causes a power loss. A larger diameter tire will, as it changes the overall final gear ratio. But heavier, it just doesn't computer. Some data please, dyno test, top speed test, acceleration tests, anything as this is sounding like the old wives tale stuff.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: luvthemud
common sense says that a heavier tire is harder to turn. try rolling a tire up a hill. it is going to take more energy to get the heavier tire up then the lighter stock tire, your atv must also exert this when driving. when i put on my mudlites i noticed acceleration and top speed difference. actually a bigger tire would make you go faster wouldn't it?!? one revolution of a 28 inch tire takes you farther then one revolution of a 25 inch and the quads final gear is still spinning the same?? so how come the loss of speed? same thing with studding a snowmobile, it technically isn't taking any horsepower away from the sled but rotating the added weight of the studs will trim some speed off of it. simple law of rotating mass. only thing that makes sense to losing acceleration and top speed would be the added weight. now if a 28 inch tire would weigh less then a stock 25 inch tire you would be on to something. but also to be figured in are the lugs on a mud tire which penetrate the ground and hold you up a little bit, same as with sleds again, a shorter lugged track will have a little higher top speed on snow then a bigger lugged track. that is my opinion. it would be neat to see some dyno tests though! maybe a test with only a rim on, then the stock tire, then the mud tire. anyone have a dyno?
Common sense does not answer all the question, and will lead you astray in something this complex. Physics states that once you have the heavier tire in motion it will be tend to remain in motion, be harder to slow down. Otherwise in mud it will keep spinning easier. As to a bigger tire making you go faster, not unless you have enough horsepower to obtain more top speed (not likely with a 25 hp 400 engine). I will wager that the manufactures do a lot of research to come up with the correct final drive ratio and tire size. I will also wager that you don't have the knowledge or the money to improve their stock setup. I have never heard of anyone with a stock engine claim faster with bigger tires with a quad, infact it is the major complaint when biggers tires are installed. Most cars and trucks have extra horsepower available to go faster with bigger tires, most quads don't. When you make the tire larger in diameter you lower the available torque (torque is the stuff that makes you accelerate) therefore decreasing acceleration. The overall diameter is all that counts when figuring this stuff.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: luvthemud
yes, but doesn't a heavier tire take more torque to turn?
No, not more torque because torque doesn't work that way. The available torque will just take longer to do it. But the difference of a pound or so isn't gonna be noticable. You can pick up that much weight in mud on your wheels and tires. Can you tell the difference then? The only way I know is to look for the mud on the wheels and tires or a bad shimmy in the bars. Rule of thumb, Torque and gear ratio control acceleration; Horsepower at a given RPM determines top speed.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: luvthemudyes, but doesn't a heavier tire take more torque to turn?
No, not more torque because torque doesn't work that way. The available torque will just take longer to do it. But the difference of a pound or so isn't gonna be noticable. You can pick up that much weight in mud on your wheels and tires. Can you tell the difference then? The only way I know is to look for the mud on the wheels and tires or a bad shimmy in the bars. Rule of thumb, Torque and gear ratio control acceleration; Horsepower at a given RPM determines top speed.
I changed some B-52 bomber tires and I can attest to heavy tires being a horse power thief. It takes a lot of enery to get a 1045 pound tire rolling and keep it rolling. My example would be that its not to hard to keep a car tire rolling across the ramp - but one would be plenty out of breath to move one of those bomber tires the same distance. Based on moving a lot of tires around - I would say that you don't get back in momentum the energy you put into acceleration. Not at all. Must be a drag and resistance to movment issue. Don't know the math really, I've just been plenty out of breath after the wheel cart broke and had to walk the darn thing back to the hanger.
Based on that expereince I would agree that heavier tires rob performance on any vehicle. But also - what percent increase in weight becomes preceivable to the average rider is subjective at best.
But we aren't talking about 1000+ lbs tires here. We are talking a pound or two difference at the most. And still engine torque is differnet than trying to roll a tire by hand. Torque is a constant pressure not intemittent like trying to roll by hand. This stuff is old physics and can be calculated, but the real power robber is a change in overall gear ratio by a larger diameter tire. BTW, I have also dealt with big airplane tires which have as many as 60 plys and aren't anything like we are taking here.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
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But we aren't talking about 1000+ lbs tires here. We are talking a pound or two difference at the most. And still engine torque is differnet than trying to roll a tire by hand. Torque is a constant pressure not intemittent like trying to roll by hand. This stuff is old physics and can be calculated, but the real power robber is a change in overall gear ratio by a larger diameter tire. BTW, I have also dealt with big airplane tires which have as many as 60 plys and aren't anything like we are taking here.
But I was talking about 1000 lbs tires - try to keep up son. I think the rest of the readers understood the example given. And I did say that weight difference might be hard to preceive by the rider. Do you ever read all the words Bear? LOL Engine torque is different then rolling a tire by hand - My god man - you should have that published! Torque is not a constant pressure - it changes with engine RPM - ever see a torque to RPM graph? It often looks like a big lump in the middle of the paper.
I know torque pressure changes with RPM and gear ratio, but at a given RPM and gear ratio, torque does remain constant. Yeah, I do read all of the posts, but I tunnel vision on the part I am responding to. If I was perfect you would all have to worship me, I don't think I could handle that. Son????? I wish, but my oldest son is pushing 40. img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
If were going to get all technical and stay on topic (thats pretty rare by itself) -
Ive rode a number of machines with a variety of tires and I can't say I've seen anything do outstandingly better in that deep of snow. I've heard stories but I have one also - I've gone up hills in the snow with my stock carlisles that guys with big lug tractor tires with CHAINS barely made it up. So go figure.
It's called rider skill level and most of the "I need bigger and better tires and more horsepower" guys lack it. A great driver with average equipment will beat an average driver with great equipment everytime.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: oper2nyst
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: calsatman
i wasnt happy with my stock tires either and i put on a set of stock size dirt devils and it made a huge improvement. these tires arent pure mud tires but they seem to work well in all the conditions ive rode in. and the other advantage is they are lighter than a pure mud tire so there isnt any power loss. just my opinion but these tires are worth a look.
Can anyone tell me where this theory that heavier tire causes a power loss. A larger diameter tire will, as it changes the overall final gear ratio. But heavier, it just doesn't computer. Some data please, dyno test, top speed test, acceleration tests, anything as this is sounding like the old wives tale stuff.
a heavier tire would absorb more torque initially[you can think of it as a flywheel, slower to accelerate to speed[rpm],ie light flywheel typically revs faster to a given speed than a heavy wheel, the trade being more stored energyonce the rpm range is reached] to get rolling,however that has no bearing on the engine output ,that is a constant at any given rpm range[adjustable for temp,humidity,etc]
I understand the flywheel deal very well. On my 2 stroke, high reving boat motors I used light flywheels. On my heavy stock cars and stock drag cars I used heavy flywheels. But the heavy tires will not lower the top speed and the difference in acceleration has to be way less than a .10 of a second and I know the average guy out there can't tell the difference.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
It's called rider skill level and most of the "I need bigger and better tires and more horsepower" guys lack it. A great driver with average equipment will beat an average driver with great equipment everytime.
Thanks Bear - I'll take that as complement!
I was only speaking the truth!
Posted by: Napolean
I just put a set of maxxis bighorns(25x8-25x10) on my 400. they are much better in the mud and ride very well.
You do want the same size tire front and back height wize but go with a skinnier tire in the front it will make turning easier. I have been told by many that if you go larger than 25' you will loose a lot of low end power.
Posted by: 5spdvinsn
steveg05 if the most extreme conditions you ride in is snow then i would suggest you look into a set of radial tires, as they are said to excell in the snow due to the increased surface area. ITP ATRs and ITP mudlightXTRs are two i would suggest, and both are light tires so you wont lose as much power.
LOL bear j/p.
Posted by: trvman
i know a way to find out if it makes a diffrence, put forty pounds of wieght on the bike and run it around test the speed in a TIMED event and then do it without the wieght see what happens? this might not work or it might ? i dont know and im not trying to be a smarta$$ just trying to help.
Posted by: oper2nyst
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: calsatman
i wasnt happy with my stock tires either and i put on a set of stock size dirt devils and it made a huge improvement. these tires arent pure mud tires but they seem to work well in all the conditions ive rode in. and the other advantage is they are lighter than a pure mud tire so there isnt any power loss. just my opinion but these tires are worth a look.
Can anyone tell me where this theory that heavier tire causes a power loss. A larger diameter tire will, as it changes the overall final gear ratio. But heavier, it just doesn't computer. Some data please, dyno test, top speed test, acceleration tests, anything as this is sounding like the old wives tale stuff.
a heavier tire would absorb more torque initially[you can think of it as a flywheel, slower to accelerate to speed[rpm],ie light flywheel typically revs faster to a given speed than a heavy wheel, the trade being more stored energyonce the rpm range is reached] to get rolling,however that has no bearing on the engine output ,that is a constant at any given rpm range[adjustable for temp,humidity,etc]
Posted by: calsatman
i wasnt happy with my stock tires either and i put on a set of stock size dirt devils and it made a huge improvement. these tires arent pure mud tires but they seem to work well in all the conditions ive rode in. and the other advantage is they are lighter than a pure mud tire so there isnt any power loss. just my opinion but these tires are worth a look.
Posted by: steveg05
got a 2006 arctic cat 400 auto ( first atv),not quite happy with stock tires
i live in michigan and ride in 6"-12" snow , 12" max. mud & trails ( woods/ flat land)
what would you guys suggest.as i have nothing to compare better traction to
this being my first atv.should i stay with the stock size or go to 26",same size
on front and rear ? thanks for your advice
Posted by: steveg05
took the cat out this afternoon and played in the snow and mud. the 400 came stock with badland radials
i ran it in low range boy what a difference , my dealer told me that most of the time to use 2wh drive, so using it in 4wh hi
i thought that would be good enough. but maybe it wasnt the tires after all . it seems like a totaly different machine.
thanks for all your input, i think i'll stick with these for a while(only got 85 miles so far).
Posted by: LIL57JON
Seeing as all the A&Ps were crawling out of the woodwork, I figured I'd chime in. I seem to recall torque and horsepower equations back in school. BMEP it was called. Brake Mean Effective Pressure. I work on jet engines and we deal with pounds of thrust. But, it really is all about gear ratio and rpm. The graphs don't lie. And I have to agree with bear, the manufactures do spend great amounts of time engineering the proper wheel/tire/gear set-ups, so I think they know best. As for brand/tread/etc. I think that is all preference and type of terrain. All I know is what works best for me, but I'm always open to advise. Thats how we learn things. That's why we belong to these forums. You could spend thousands and gain only a couple of MPH more. I'll stick with stock for now, (as long as I can keep air in the Badlands) I'll get off my box now.
Posted by: LIL57JON
Going back to the top of the discussion, the topic was advise about a better tire for snow, I don't know how we ended up here.:confused. My stock tires have worked fine for mud, snow (10"+) wet and dry, and the trails.
