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Posted by: mountainclimber
I changed mine at 100 to synthetic. It seems to run smoother and shift smoother to.
Posted by: Bear4570
I changed oil at 100 and 200 with regular oil and at 300 went synthetic. My dealer said I could have go synthetic at 100 if I'd wanted to. But my experience said go a bit longer. When it was in for a clutch adjust recently, the service manager rode the bike before the adjustment and said he only ever had one other 400 as strong as mine. So I did something right. At just over 1300 miles now and still going strong. As for the tires, I Slimed the suckers early on (learned from my 250) and even though I've basicly destroyed 2 rims so far, no flats since the Slime went in.
Posted by: Bear4570
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Originally posted by: JimJa
Directly and indirectly I, too have been exposed to the various odds and ends of oil my entire life and I'm older than Bear.
It is no slipperier than any other oil. This is the myth and it's nonsense. It's a wife's tale that needs to be ended. The real plus of synthetic oil is its ability to perform better than dino oil under thermal stress. In short, it gets to where it is suppose to go, and does its job better than dino oil whether it's hot or cold. Its base stock is also better and as a result requires fewer friction inhibitors, anti-foaming agents, vicisoity enhancers, etc. Most wear occurs in the first 10 minutes after start up. If you have an oil that can get there sooner, you'll have less wear.
Another thing...you are all aware of course, oil does not have to be synthetic to be called synthetic. Yup, that's a fact. There are some limits and I don't know what exactly they are, but an oil can be called synthetic without being synthetic. I won't name names because I'm not sure which ones fall into the non-synthetic list. I do know Mobil 1 is a true synthetic. I use it in everything I own and have since 1987. I change oil once a year in my quads, but they are only used 6 mos each year. The regular vehicles get their change every 10K. Got a 160K on the truck now and it doesn't use any oil and still gets 20MPG on the highway.
I edited out all that I agree with and will cover each paragraph that I have problems with.
First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt.img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Second, You can't have it both ways. First you say it's not slipperier and then you say it has less friction inhibitors. Why sless fricyion inhibitors if it is not slicker? According to the jet engine wear engineers I have spoken with when I was working the experiment shop at Beech Aircraft Corp. when we were developing their first pure jet engined airplane, synthetic is not only more heat resistance (the main reason for it's creation) but it did turn out to be slicker.
They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them).
Posted by: Bear4570
Part of the problem is the temperature. If you aired the tires up inside in a heated garage or shop and when you take it out in the cold the tire pressure drops, letting the tire come off the rim. Air the tires to 5psi after the machine has been in the cold long enough to stablize the temp in the tire. The slime will also prevent some of this.
Posted by: Bear4570
Quote
Originally posted by: JimJa
"I edited out all that I agree with and will cover each paragraph that I have problems with."
"First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt."
That means you don't agree that I'm older...hmmm. Yeah, I'm older than dirt, and according to my teenage son, am getting dumber every day. But not so dumb when he desires some money from Dad, even though he rejects the way of life that got the money he is asking for. That should sound somewhat familiar to some Dad's out there. The nature of those not yet paying their own utility bills.
I just said older than dirt, like maybe either I am too or maybe I am dirt. BR>
"Second, You can't have it both ways."
Yeah, you can. All lubricants have to have some friction inhibitors. Doesn't mean they are less or more slippery when doing their job acting as a buffer between metals. Additive packages are complex, and are also closely guarded. Suffice to say that one additive must be countered by another. If you have a good base stock - which synthetic is - a minimal (by comparsion) additive package is necessary. Depending upon the brand and where the oil came from, the additive package can amount to a significant portion of the total volume in the can.
I still don't think that proves whether it is slicker or not
As for jet engines - well, been around those too - 24 years - retired Navy flyer. Jet engine oil is normally changed by contamination, not time (or miles - heh, heh) and under goes spectra at routine intervals - but you know that. Synthetic was - I think - developed at a result of the jet engine requirement for an oil able to withstand the internal high temps w/out breaking down.
I completely agree.
"They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them)."
Blended synthetics have turned out to been a marketing success. Some time ago a major brand (again I'm not going to say which one it is, it's still on the market) was calling itself a synthetic when it was not. Now perhaps that oil is blended but they choose not to say so. As I said, I don't know the rules, but no where on the label does that product say "blended." It just may have to meet some SAE obtuse rule, but again that's speculation.
I would guess it was a success because of the price and that the oil did not cause failures. A lot of the synthetic oils used in 2 strokes are blended and unless you read the label carefully you will never know.
AmsOil is another true synthetic. It and Mobil 1 are the only two I know for sure to be true synthetics. Not saying others aren't, I just know those are.
IAmsOil and Mobil 1 are the only two true synthetics that I know of also, the rest are blended to my knowledge. But I've been wrong before.
I do not know who makes Arctic Cats synthetic and haven't bothered to to check whether it is blended or not (I have a gallon jugn on the floor of my truck for the next oil change), maybe I should check.
What I have found with AC's synthetic oil is that the oil stays cleaner longer (don't know the reason but at oil change at twice the mileage recommended for the dino oil, it looks and feels cleaner). Maybe I am lucky or then maybe I do what a good break-in requires, but I tend to end up with stronger running motors than the other guy, even when racing rules are designed to prevent it, I still seemed to have it happen. My personnal experience has been favorable with synthetics in 4 stroke motors and unfavorable in 2 stroke motors. So I am not really totally pro synthetics.
Posted by: Bear4570
Could be that 8 or 10 psi would help as the rubber is going to be a lot less flexible in that cold of weather.
Posted by: Bear4570
Quote
Originally posted by: Breye
I was surfing the net for ATV fairings for my AC 400 auto 2006 and came across this thread and just had to register and add my complaint about tire presser. I have had so much tire problem with mine I&39;ve almost wore out my compressor from filling my tires up. I took the tires in to a local tire shop to get them re-beaded too and still lose air from the bead.
So put "Slime" in your tires and shut up and go ride. IMHO, you gotta be beating the crap out of things if you are knocking tires off the rims. BTW, my rims, all 4 of them, are bent to hell and back and still don't leak.
Posted by: Bear4570
Quote
Originally posted by: CaRider67
Without belaboring the point - synthetic oil will not prevent break-in and can be installed immediately (Porsche/Corvette etc...hello). It is no slipperier than any other oil. This is the myth and it's nonsense>>>>
Exactly, I've had dealers tell me NO synthetic, or wait till a few hundred miles, it is too "slipper"(isnt that the point?)......<sigh> lots of urban myths. I run Shell Rotella T (the blue bottle) in everything, its cheaper then Mobile 1 and is a true full synthetic. Truckers run this oil for tens of thousands of miles with only filter changes. An ATV can run synthetic off the assembly line, this nonsense about breaking in the motor first is alsy a myth. I'd also suggest changing your oil after your first two extended rides, for cost purposes run organic oil then switch to synthetic.
There is a reason GM runs synthetic in Corvettes straight from the factory, in fact, I believe it is the only oil that can be used.
First you claim all these things are a myth, then you turn around and say the 'vette has synthetic because nothing else can be used. You can't have it both ways. Either dino oil is as good as synthetic or it isn't. Read what you wrote, because if your first statement is true the your second is false, or vise-a-versa. As to the trucker, they have their engine oil sampled and when there is a break down of the oil they change it, but the testing the oil will also show them when abnormal wear shows up too. Almost no one checks their car oil except with a dip stick and that only tells you how much is left in the motor. As to the break in myth you insist doesn't exsist, If you use synthetic during break-in it will probably extend the break-in time and miles, why? You have all the answers, do you even know when and why synthetic oil was developed?
Posted by: JimJa
I hope not to offend anyone with this post (which means I probably will), but I just cannot let this myth about synthetic oil go on any longer. My father worked in the oil industry his entire life (he died several years ago). Directly and indirectly I, too have been exposed to the various odds and ends of oil my entire life and I'm older than Bear. I also have a very good friend and relative that is a Petroleum Engineer and we have talked at length about this. I also have minors in Math, Chemistry, and Physics. My B.S and M.S. are not related to oil and the above is only noted to lend a sense of creditability to what I am about to say.
Without belaboring the point - synthetic oil will not prevent break-in and can be installed immediately (Porsche/Corvette etc...hello). It is no slipperier than any other oil. This is the myth and it's nonsense. It's a wife's tale that needs to be ended. The real plus of synthetic oil is its ability to perform better than dino oil under thermal stress. In short, it gets to where it is suppose to go, and does its job better than dino oil whether it's hot or cold. Its base stock is also better and as a result requires fewer friction inhibitors, anti-foaming agents, vicisoity enhancers, etc. Most wear occurs in the first 10 minutes after start up. If you have an oil that can get there sooner, you'll have less wear.
Another thing...you are all aware of course, oil does not have to be synthetic to be called synthetic. Yup, that's a fact. There are some limits and I don't know what exactly they are, but an oil can be called synthetic without being synthetic. I won't name names because I'm not sure which ones fall into the non-synthetic list. I do know Mobil 1 is a true synthetic. I use it in everything I own and have since 1987. I change oil once a year in my quads, but they are only used 6 mos each year. The regular vehicles get their change every 10K. Got a 160K on the truck now and it doesn't use any oil and still gets 20MPG on the highway.
If it makes you feel better to use dino oil for the first few changes, be my guest. Just don't do it under false pretenses.
Posted by: JimJa
Brad,
You didn't say where you are from, but if it's good and cold, and you'll be using your quad throughout the winter, you might consider 0W30 or 0W40 (like you noted) as a year round oil. If you don't feel comfortable because of the "0" in the summer, you could change twice a year, spring and fall, using a heavier oil such as 10W30 or 10W40 in the summer.
BTW, the "W" in 10W30 means the oil formulation in that can has undergone a winter test. The SAE has a standardized test at a certain temperature and the winter test is a measurement of an oil's ability to flow, its viscosity. That's why you'll see a 20W20 oil, but you won't see a 40W40 oil. It will read 40.
You say you only have 200 miles on your quad and your post indicates the tire(s) have been leaking for some time. Do all of them leak, or only one? Is your machine new? I assume it is leaking at the bead - yes/no? Before you Slime them, and if your machine is new (under warranty) talk to your dealer. The rim(s) or tires may be defective. This shouldn't happen. A tubeless tire is a tire with the "tube" vulcanized to the inside. The part that seals is part of the flat portion touching the rim horzonally, and at the rounded edge as the bead goes up towards the sidewall. The tire does not seal up past that rounded part of the bead. Look for damage in the rounded and horzonal area. It doesn't take much. On the rim look for damage, something small stuck to the rim, or a mfg'ing defect, opposite where the tire seals.
Someone with more experience than I please weight in...it is my understanding that once you Slime your tire it cannot be repaired via an inside patch. Is this true? What about a plug?
Posted by: JimJa
"I edited out all that I agree with and will cover each paragraph that I have problems with."
"First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt."
That means you don't agree that I'm older...hmmm. Yeah, I'm older than dirt, and according to my teenage son, am getting dumber every day. But not so dumb when he desires some money from Dad, even though he rejects the way of life that got the money he is asking for. That should sound somewhat familiar to some Dad's out there. The nature of those not yet paying their own utility bills.
"Second, You can't have it both ways."
Yeah, you can. All lubricants have to have some friction inhibitors. Doesn't mean they are less or more slippery when doing their job acting as a buffer between metals. Additive packages are complex, and are also closely guarded. Suffice to say that one additive must be countered by another. If you have a good base stock - which synthetic is - a minimal (by comparsion) additive package is necessary. Depending upon the brand and where the oil came from, the additive package can amount to a significant portion of the total volume in the can.
As for jet engines - well, been around those too - 24 years - retired Navy flyer. Jet engine oil is normally changed by contamination, not time (or miles - heh, heh) and under goes spectra at routine intervals - but you know that. Synthetic was - I think - developed at a result of the jet engine requirement for an oil able to withstand the internal high temps w/out breaking down.
"They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them)."
Blended synthetics have turned out to been a marketing success. Some time ago a major brand (again I'm not going to say which one it is, it's still on the market) was calling itself a synthetic when it was not. Now perhaps that oil is blended but they choose not to say so. As I said, I don't know the rules, but no where on the label does that product say "blended." It just may have to meet some SAE obtuse rule, but again that's speculation.
AmsOil is another true synthetic. It and Mobil 1 are the only two I know for sure to be true synthetics. Not saying others aren't, I just know those are.
Posted by: JimJa
"What I have found with AC's synthetic oil is that the oil stays cleaner longer (don't know the reason but at oil change at twice the mileage recommended for the dino oil, it looks and feels cleaner)."
Allow a personal experience. Wife transferring to Hawaii in 1987 (Also Navy Officer) and I'm worried she won't change the oil (correct on my part - not telling her that of course. I did the husband training, I know better). I'm following, but not for over a year. Switch to Mobil 1 ATT in '84 Audi Quattro w/67K miles. just because I know the oil won't be changed.
Continue using Mobil 1 in Audi because it only takes 4qts including filter. Fast fwd several years later. Audi now with 135K miles (keep in mind that 5 cyl engine turned over 4K @ 70MPH). In to the dealer in San Diego for a broken spring in pressure plate. While there ask to have valve cover gasket changed. Pick up car and Service guy says Tech wants to talk to you. That sounds expensive I remember thinking. Tech asks if milage is correct. Yup. I ask why. He says in 20 years he's never seen a valve alley that clean. Did a cyl leak down on his nickel just to check and found compression that expected of an Audi with 25-35K miles. After that I changed everything to synthetic. I wait for sales and stock up. That way the price isn't such a shock. Costco's prices are pretty good all the time.
Consumer's reports did an extensive oil test in July of 1996. NY Taxis. Excellent piece. Conclusion is we change oil too often. Synthetic test deemed not valid because two the three vehicles had engine break downs not related to oil. They changed dino at 6k and synthetic at 12K. No additional wear as compared to oil changed at more normal 3K. Only thing I questioned about their test is Taxis don't shut down so cold start up less of a factor - and that's when the wear occurs.
A couple of years ago there was a big argument on an Explorer forum about synthetic vs. dino oil. Guy offered to use synthetic and change oil when spectra indicated just to prove a point that oil should be changed between 3-5K. Did baseline spectra and spectra conducted every 5K. His Explorer was a V6 w/62K. At 5K, additive package was 1/3 used, at 10K 2/3s at 15K the oil was ready for changing. He moved is oil changes to 7.5K after that. Given the state of today's oils and engines it is my belief we change oil too often if we change at 3K.
Posted by: JimJa
7mm,
I'm using deductive logic here so my answer to your question may be total BS. If someone knows for sure, please weigh in.
The wet clutch system in our quads is similar in function to the clutch pack in the Ford and Chevy positive traction rear ends. By that I mean it has to work in an oil bath and, depending upon the oil used, maqy require a "Friction Modifer" or whatever the mfgr calls it. Obviously the torque in a quad against the clutches isn't nearly as great. The principle is the same. That makes me think that AC's synthetic oil sold under their label may have some sort of friction modifer. That's just a guess, but I do know some oils are certified to use in cars with Traction Loc w/out adding anything, and some are not. It's my understanding that friction modifers are added to cars to prevent the clutch pack from "grabbing" when going around a corner. The grabbing issue was a big deal when Chevy first came out with Posa-trac in the late '50s. This may not be an issue for quads since the torque is less and any problem shouldn't be as pronounced.
A place to check with a little more information is Redline in their oil application descriptions. They talk about their oils that have and do not have the modifer (redline.com). Now all that said...I'd be willing to bet there are guys out there that have put any old cheap oil in their machines and run them for years without problems. In truth our concerns may be moot.
Posted by: Hoopie
I just went to synthetic at 200 miles on mine. Changed it at 100 miles also.
Posted by: Hoopie
I could be wrong and probably am but I am going to say it anyways because i notice it on my atv's and motrcycles. When using synthetic or dino oil in my atv's and bikes I notice its not the oil that breaks down as its always clean when i change it but its the additives that do for the wet clutch becasue the shifting gets harder or more erratic.
Posted by: Hoopie
7mm, Yes it does have to have to be "wet clutch oil". The owner manual states it must be SE, SF, or SG under API service classifications
Posted by: CaRider67
Without belaboring the point - synthetic oil will not prevent break-in and can be installed immediately (Porsche/Corvette etc...hello). It is no slipperier than any other oil. This is the myth and it's nonsense>>>>
Exactly, I've had dealers tell me NO synthetic, or wait till a few hundred miles, it is too "slipper"(isnt that the point?)......<sigh> lots of urban myths. I run Shell Rotella T (the blue bottle) in everything, its cheaper then Mobile 1 and is a true full synthetic. Truckers run this oil for tens of thousands of miles with only filter changes. An ATV can run synthetic off the assembly line, this nonsense about breaking in the motor first is alsy a myth. I'd also suggest changing your oil after your first two extended rides, for cost purposes run organic oil then switch to synthetic.
There is a reason GM runs synthetic in Corvettes straight from the factory, in fact, I believe it is the only oil that can be used.
Posted by: mudslinginfool
I WAITED TILL 500 MILES TO SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC. FOR ME THOUGH IT ONLY TOOK A MONTH. 2600 MILES ON IT NOW AND NO PROBLEMS YET. THE TIRES,SLIME THEM LIKE BEAR SAID. IVE GOT THEM 4'+ HAW THORNS IN MINE FOR 3 YEARS NOW AND THEY NEVER LOOSE AIR. BUT IVE ALSO GOT THE 6 PLY 589'S TIRES.
Posted by: mudslinginfool
I STAY BETWEEN 5 AND 8 DEPENDING ON WHAT IM DOING. 5 LBS FOR TRAIL RIDING FOR MAX TRACKTION AND 8 LBS IN THE REAR WHEN I HAUL WOOD ON THE TRAILER.
Posted by: 7mm
Have just under 200 miles on initial oil . The dealer told me to change the oil at 200 and bring it in for servicing and a check up. I want to put 0w40 synthetic in as it is quite cold here already, and my cat wouldnt start the other day, -24 celcius and all my buddies did ,,,,got bugged to say the least!I am just worried that it may be too soon for synthetic as its not broke in enough, is this right? Also ever since I have had it I keep getting flats, the tire doesnt come of the bead but looses just about all the air, and I have too sometimes even lift on the Quad to get it too take air . sometimes I got a mile ,sometimes I got 5-6 miles before the flat, and got bugged by the same guys as they waited for me to pump up. I took the tires in to a local tire shop to get taken off, cleaned and re-beaded hope this fixes them. Anyone else having this problem?
Posted by: 7mm
thats very interesting ,,,,, now I dont know what to believe. What I am doing is changing oil to 5w30 to help with the cold starting and if really cold I will use Heater again. Once this has ran for a while I will go to synthetic, and stay with that.
They re beaded my tires and put some stuff on the beads, I will see how that works. If not I will slime them.Everyone keeps saying "ya dont have enough air" but after pumping them up many times I made them pretty hard. One guy tells me go to the max psi , so I check max psi and its 36 . The book says 5, Is anyone going much higher than that?
Posted by: 7mm
Thanks for all your info, for the tires I think I will throw a little more air in , can't see it hurting to much. If that dont work they are going back to the dealer.
Justa Question, does there have to be wet clutch oil put in these manuals,or can you use just normal car oil. The reason I ask is I have never used anything any different in my trikes in all the years I used and still use them. I dont seem to have any problem with them. Like I said just a question.
Posted by: SLICDOG
I can relate to the tire problem on my 05 AC 400 manual.My first atv I have 40 miles total and have had front and rear tire off the rims and a third go flat(2 flats in one trip)Pretty disgusted as the dealer looked as if i had done something wrong on the first incident(20 miles total).When I brought the 2cnd and third in ,he finally took notice and is trying to find out why?I also took them to a service station to have them re-set the bead and look for punctures(none).I for one hope that there was a simple problemwith the bead and this will cure the problem.trying to keep calm as i don't like walking back in -5 degree weather.
Posted by: SLICDOG
I don't think the cold weather was a problem as the tires were aired and checked each time before a trip while the atv has been stored in an unheated shed.Maybe I should go to 8 to 10 lbs for winter riding.
Just wondering if it is a factory or tire problem.
Posted by: Breye
I was surfing the net for ATV fairings for my AC 400 auto 2006 and came across this thread and just had to register and add my complaint about tire presser. I have had so much tire problem with mine I&39;ve almost wore out my compressor from filling my tires up. I took the tires in to a local tire shop to get them re-beaded too and still lose air from the bead.
