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Posted by: Wires
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Originally posted by: cFhDimebag
Wouldn't it be better to get a pvc elbow and use that for a new snorkel instead of the radiator hose? That's what the Velocity Devices snorkel kit looks like.
You can use either. We picked PVC since it was readily available, and lended itself to be easily extended for a true snorkel. The only problem with PVC is mounting it to the airbox. Our kit comes with special sealing tape that solves that problem. In addition, the kit includes new carb bowl screws (to replace those troublesome Philips headed ones that always strip). The price has been reduced for December on that kit as well as the modules (just in time for Christmas).
Whichever way you do it, the airbox opening on the 2004 AC650 won't handle more than the 2" PVC tube.
Posted by: Wires
That would be the idea in theory, but once you factor in RPM's and airflow, that doesn't hold true.
If you take a V2, and pop off the airbox lid, and then blip the throttle, the engine will stumple and die (you can barely get 1/4 throttle). Now, re-jet, and the engine purrs (with perfect Air to Fuel ratio).
Opening the intake up gives the most (and cheapest) bang for the buck.
Posted by: Wires
The Kawasaki 650 was shipped with a bigger intake and larger jets than the Arctic Cat 650. Arctic Cat comes with F/R 122/122 jets, Kawi ships theirs with F/R 138/142. I don't think that Kawi tuned theirs to have less HP.
Majority of the times the intake is tuned restrictive to act as a muffler to reduce noise. My 650 couldn't get above 1/4 throttle with intake opened up, and without jetting it up. Fuel+Air=HP, and that's telling me that anything above 1/4 throttle has more HP, since it needed re-jetting.
Problem with a CVT is you can't really get a decent dyno plot, since you can't get a 1:1 transmission ratio (since the CVT is always changing it).
Posted by: Wires
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Originally posted by: out18law18
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Just how much time can you spend at WOT with a quad?
As much as possible when riding mud or sand in my experience.
Or snow. BR>
Posted by: Wires
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
So big throttle has limited use.
Spoken from someone that doesn't ride a V-Twin. If you had one, you'd find places for WOT. The Kawi V-Twin has more torque than anything I've ever riden (including the 660 Grizzley).
Posted by: Wires
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Originally posted by: Bear4570
Wires; I raced 130 mph boats for years and set several national speed records and was #1 in the nation in my class twice plus more regional and divisional championships than anyone ought to own. So don't talk down to me about going fast, been there and done that long before you were legal to drive. But running a boat on the water on a closed course is on thing and roaring around with a bunch of other helter skelter is another.
I didn't say anything about you going fast. All I said, if you drove the V-Twin, you'd find places to jab the throttle to WOT. Not sure what that has to do with driving boats.... My quad doesn't float.....
Posted by: Wires
Ha ha.... Bear once again get's the last word in.... BR>
Always a peeing contest with you, isn't it? BR>
Posted by: Bear4570
Diginit, You do realize that only one carb at a time is in use. With an alternate firing twin only one carb pulls air while the other is static as the second cylinder is on the exhaust stroke. So all you really need is big enough for one carb. In fact it could be and advantage as the air flow thru the intake would have a more constant speed.
Posted by: Bear4570
Wires, thats because believe it or not the factory intake system is "tuned" for the engine. When you start taking away the tuned portion then you have to redo the carb. I would like to see dyno numbers on this mod from idle to WOT compared tp stock and see where you lose and where you gain. I would bet that the gain is all at WOT and the lose would be off idle thru mid range. I've done a lot of tinkering with intake systems and exhaust systems on a lot of different motors over the years and have found that the factory will almost always compromise WOT for better performace where the vast majority of your running is done. Just how much time can you spend at WOT with a quad?
Posted by: Bear4570
I know all about tuned intakes. A number of years ago(in the earky '80's) Jonhson and Evinrude came out with 6 and 8 hp outboards. You couldn't run then with the air box off at above fast idle or they would die(we put an 8hp on a 8' hydro and wanted it to go faster, had to totally redo both mid range and high speed jets). So I know what you mean, however I would think with a 4X4 quad low and mid range torque would be more important than max HP as they won't tell you what it is unless the law requires it. Beside the tires and suspensions aren't really made for speed either. More max HP gives you higher max speed which isn't really what 4X4 quads are about. It's like hot rod jeeps aren't about high speed but about crossing rough country.
Posted by: Bear4570
Well the snow and mud would be fun except we have real live mountains out here and the roads and trail turn alot. If you don't want to die you slow down and a lot of time don't even get out of 2nd or 3rd gear. Also even the hill are big out here and steep too. So big throttle has limited use.
Posted by: Bear4570
Wires; I raced 130 mph boats for years and set several national speed records and was #1 in the nation in my class twice plus more regional and divisional championships than anyone ought to own. So don't talk down to me about going fast, been there and done that long before you were legal to drive. But running a boat on the water on a closed course is on thing and roaring around with a bunch of other helter skelter is another.
Posted by: Bear4570
Wires, I spent half of last year riding my buddy's Polaris 700 so I know about the big twins. I also know that a big engine don't make you a better rider. I have always gotten all that the was to get from my equipment. That's what make you good at it. "More Power" is a Tim "The Toolman" Taylor thing any everyone knows what he is capable of. As to the boat thing, if you think your quad is fast you got another think coming. I know what really fast is and I know when it is safe to do. The average quad and rider should never go faster than about 30 mph as the average driver is over his head when doing so. Just like the average driver is over his head driving he's car faster than 100 mph probaly less. Improving on what the factory does is no great challenge, but it then again why do so for the trails. You can't possibly use any more power. Hell, I went everywhere the 700's, 650's and 500's went last year so if you will really be honest about it the big engine is for your ego and that's about it. Smart marketing on the manufactures part.
Posted by: Bear4570
Weez440; I will tell you a secret, well it's not really a secret but I know why you are doing what you are doing and why. How? Been there and done that. I can't wait for you to get to be my age(if you get lucky or is it unlucky enough to last this long) and you try telling a youngster what you know. It can be flustrating.
Pigsticker; You aint the only one that has drag raced fast cars, did that before boats and to tell the truth quads aren't drag cars and neither are boats. Different ball game all together. I also race roundy round cars. So fast aint no stranger to me. Experience isn't something I have a lack of, got the scars to prove it too. Like I said "been the done that". I did some other even more dangerous thing in my life, but that's another story.
Posted by: Bear4570
Wires; If you think this is a pissing contest, you need more life experince. This is just a little discussion and even fun, most of the time. Everybody gets to have their view of things and should express it, but the flip side is the other guy get to express his to.
Posted by: Bear4570
Heyyou; I never once said I knew everything. In fact I never met anyone who did. I also never once and never have said everyone else is dumb. Very few people are dumb. A lot of us can be stupid, ingnorant or even run our months without knowing the truth. But very few on here are dumb or do dumb things. Some dumb things get said but I could careless about that. I don't have any problem with others expressing the opinions, but I get my say too. If you say I'm dumb for that, then you are young and "the young do not always do what they are told or should do." I am not young and have much life experince to go by and the scars that go with being smart enough to avoid death or lucky enough, whichever it was. So I have been there and done that and if you are lucky you might make it to old age and be able to say that too.
Posted by: Bear4570
m74me; Very well said. Oh yeah, did I ever say I was slow?
Posted by: Bear4570
m74me, Well the 400 will do better than 40 pretty easy the 250 you have to push it a bit but 45 plus on the GPS a couple of time. The wife however isn't much for over 30 yet, she is fairly new to riding by herself. Fast can be fun but I much prefer and seek out the trails and cross country(hard to find around here, the trees grow awlful close together). I am finding the the 400, even left in 2X4 will go just about anywhere. It is nice knowing the 4X4 and the locker are there in case it all turns to sh*t, hasn't so far but I have faith in Mr. Murphy. No offense taken. I been called a lot worse than slow, but if you been around as long as we have, who hasn't. I do prefer slow but when the children get a little uppity I still know a thing or two about fast. My signature covers it pretty good.
Posted by: pigsticker
Ok guys, I have had my V2 since late august now, and am very pleased with it over all. But now im wanting my power from it.. My girlfriend is getting me the highlifter module for christmas, then after that I will have my tax returns, and im thinking about spending a portion of that on mods for the fourwheeler. Approx 1200-1500$ I have a warn 3.0 winch on thier right now, and that is it (darn'd thing is bound up to, have to take it off and fix it ) My question is, what mods should I be looking at. Stipulations. Fourwheeler, needs to be able to run on 91 octane, must be reliable still, and if any exhaust is done, it must have a spark arrester for the trails I ride in wisconsin.
Posted by: pigsticker
No one has any advise for the money I have listed????
Posted by: pigsticker
IM not an average rider, been doing it since I was 4. On top of that, I;ve drag raced since i was old enough to get on the track, and have taking 8.80 cars down the quarter mile, and I owned and raced a 10 sec 91 mustang notch back. So im not worried about a quad that might put out 50 hp modded . thanks for the concern bear
Posted by: heyyou
Some people just know everything and don't mind letting everyone know it too.
Those people think that everyone else is dumb if they don't heed their advice.Just because your old doesn't mean you are wise or command respect.I see less and less people showing respect to a certain know it all that thinks everyone else should sit down and listen to his knowledge and hang off every word.
Giving your opinion is one thing but telling it is different.Old age doesn't teach how to get along with others I guess.
Posted by: weez440
pending if it is and 04 or 05 i think they fixed it for 05 but the dynatek cdi will get you about the same power as the highlifter module and take care of ovveride in reverse and limp mode but i haven't been on here for a while if you have an 05 and they fixed that the highlifter module works great and i know there is an exhaust mod for the 650 but i can't remember what the company was called the one guy left a thread on here a couple months or so ago sounds like a pretty sweet mod and with that kind of money you can probably go into the motor i dunno how much a kit would cost to boost it up to a 700 i am guessing it isn't very cheap
Posted by: weez440
ok to put this thread to a close maybe we should just ask arctic cat for an efi system and well 2nd bear i put all these mods on my 650 and it doesn't do anything for top end it actually lost on top end i wanted more low end torque and thats what i got now yes my 650 did well i hit 68 with it a couple times brand new but when i did reach those speeds i was in complete control (in a sense a person isn't always absolutely 100 percent in complete control even doing 10 mph) and there is a reason why i stress that each and every person looking for an atv should purchase one at their own level of experience. I haven't ever been around dirt bikes a couple years ago i was contemplating on buying a KTM but i wasn't gonna go buy the biggest and baddest i was gonna buy a lil 125 to start out with. ok i got sidetracked there but differnt mods do different things and different people want more power in different area's of your power band
Posted by: cFhDimebag
Wouldn't it be better to get a pvc elbow and use that for a new snorkel instead of the radiator hose? That's what the Velocity Devices snorkel kit looks like.
Posted by: out18law18
id go with some tires and clutch kit, u cant go wrong with that and then mabey some bumpers for the front and back.
Posted by: out18law18
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Just how much time can you spend at WOT with a quad?
As much as possible when riding mud or sand in my experience.
Posted by: Diginit
If you own a 04 model, heres a couple of items you might enjoy doing.
Tires/Rims....Man, have you got alot of choices here. Some popluar ones are MudBugs, 589's, Mudlites. These are all pretty much good trail and mud tires. $600.00 roughly
Clutch work...Highly recomended to save your belt. Lots of combinations out there to choose from. If you stay with 27" tires or less, the EPI black secondary and the Prarie 700 stock primary spring work pretty good. If you want to go with larger tire, Red secondary and pink primary. You can also add different weights in the primary, but then you have a pretty high engagement RPM. Anywhere between $24.00 for just a spring to $200.00 for a complete kit.
Module...OK, your getting one, so that covers that.
Carb work.....This ones a real cheapie, but a big improvement. Your intake snorkel is only large enough to supply enough air for only one carb. Get yourself a radiator hose from NAPA (part # 7905). Cut it to fit under the "Glove Box" compartment. It will slip right on the air box with no modificatios. You'll go from 1 5/8" ID to 2 1/4" ID. You'll need to rejet your carbs to 140 main jets, and add one shim under each needle. I'm also from Wisconsin so these should work for you. You'll find directions on how to do this at Velocity Devices web site. Right around $25.00
Exhaust...There's a couple of pipes out, but not many. I also think you don't get that much improvement for your dollar, just a neater sound. $300.00
Well, there's a start. Have fun.
P.S. Check your PM
Posted by: Diginit
Use whatever you want for the snorkel. I, just like the factory, prefer rubber. I think VD only used PVC because it was cheap and easy to get. Remember, your really after getting it opened up. The rubber hose mentioned will get you 2 1/4" ID, the PVC gets you 2" ID, I believe.
Posted by: Diginit
All I'm gonna say is this. After doing the intake mod, I went from 12-14 MPG, to over 18 MPG. The next test was at an ATV Pull. I went from almost dead last, to first. My mileage tests were on the same trail, but the second time I rode it, 90% of it was in low range, compared to only about 20% the first time. At the first pull, the only mod was the black EPI secondary spring. I use to have an early Grizzly with 27" Vampires, and I pulled with most of these guys before, and I was pretty competative, so I was able to judge my performance pretty accurately. My AC just wouldn't rev up. It never felt like it got to it's power band. By the time of the next pull, I was able to get the intake mod added. By the way, my wife has had the exact same machines I've had, both the Grizzly's, and now the AC's. Anyway, at this pull, I wasn't able to get her intake moded yet, but she also had the same clutch spring I had. I borrowed a set of 26" MudRunners for hers, thinking I'd give her an advantage in tires, since I had the intake mod. (I was still running the stock tires). I was the only one with full pulls in both the 2WD and 4WD classes. She came in second, about 20' short of my distance, and may I add, she was pi$$ed about that. I'm 6'3', and she's 4'11". On our Grizzlys, she normally beats me by a couple of inches in the 4WD class, and I get her in the 2WD class by a similar margine. I figure it's because with her vertically challanged height, she has more forward weight for the 4WDs, and my longer stance, gives me the advantage in the 2WD with me sitting more toward the rear of the machine. It works out nice this way. Friendly competition, and we both go away with bragging rights. I now have hers moded. Can't wait to see how next years results are gonna be. I would like to see dyno runs too, but I ain't gonna put em back to stock, just to find out. So, I think these two examples would count as good justifications to do the intake mod, wouldn't you?
Posted by: Diginit
To each his own. Isn't it great that we can live in a society, where we can all express our own opinions. I say the jar is half empty. The next guy says it's half full. So who's right? I guess it all depends on what side of the fence your on. Both views given here are correct. If we all see everything the same way, this world would suck. But I do believe that, just because you may not agree with the next guy, he is intitled to his opinion. Everybody has different interests, and they buy a certain product to fill their needs. As long as it's not illegal, they have the same rights as the next guy. We like riding ATV's. See, we do have something in common.
Posted by: Diginit
This thread has turned into a b#tch session. Can we get back to talking about modifications to the 650? I believe thats whats going to be constructive.
Posted by: m74me
Hey, Bear, your point may be valid for the smaller atv's used as you describe. But I'll have to disagree with you on this issue with the 650 v-twin. I have about 1,100 miles on mine now a have experienced just what "wires" has explained. I ride from 5,000 11,000 ft. elevation most of the time. My 650 came with the stock 122 jets. With the stock intake and the 122 jets it would start to blubber about 8,000 ft and get real bad at a bit over 10,000 ft. AC recommends a change to 108 jets for this altitude. However, I changed the intake snorkel (to the VDI type - ABS fittings) and rejetted to 140s. Now the bike runs fine from 5,000 to 11,000 ft. (with larger jets) and has noticably more power throughout the range and has improved fuel economy. Agreeably, it is not a huge difference on the bottom end (that's where a module comes in) but it is significant on the mid to top. You don't have to peg the throttle all the time. But I do love knowing that when I want to use the throttle it is there. It will creep along all day or kick out 60 MPH if I am foolish enough to get the urge (which has happened on occasion). Bottom line, the snorkle and rejetting are good for a significant performance improvement. (And by the way, the socket head screws for the float bowls as provided in the VDI kit are a great improvement for access to change the jets - Specially if you use a ball tip hex driver.)
Posted by: m74me
ow let's be careful here with the generalizations about age. If I recall from a previous post Bear made, he is about my age. (That would be 58 for me). I think I have learned a lot from those years. But I still have a lot more to learn. I hope I get the years to do it. I keep telling my grandchildren that I plan to still be riding my snowmobile and atv well into my 80s at least. I would imagine that Bear would express the same thing. I don't ride the same way Bear says he does. But that is ok by me. Maybe someday we might have a chance to ride together. If we do and Bear wants to travel at a slower rate than I normally do, I am sure my 650 would handle the slower speeds just fine and I could enjoy the ride. It is great that even at our age we can be happy to agree to disagree on some things. Hope you all have many more years of enjoying your favorite past time!
Posted by: m74me
Yea Bear, I don't see anywhere that you said you ride "slow". Slow is only a relative term. But you do comment about mountain riding in 2nd & 3rd gear. A lot of this discussion has been about guys wanting more performance from their 650. So I am "assuming" (sometimes that gets me in trouble) that you typically are riding in the sub 30 range from your descriptions. In fact that is where a lot of my riding is. In a lot of rocky or rough stuff it gets in the sub 10 range. But when we are heading " back to the barn" on the dirt roads, we kick it up to the 40 plus range fairly often. I am assuming (oops, there I go again!) that with a 400 and 250 you don't do too much 40 plus stuff. Nothing wrong with that. I guess I still like having that extra power there when I want it whether I "need" it or not. If the slow term was offensive, I apologize. Happy trails to ya!
Posted by: sammydogs64
Wow, Bear4570 has to get the last word every time. Quads aren't boats, and until you have needed or owned a big bore, you are really not in a place to make any kind of informed(???) suggestions.
