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Posted by: downndirty
The AC 500 will have plenty of power for your needs. Also as mentioned above, the diff-lock is a nice feature on the AC that the vinson doesn't have. the AC also has a huge 6.5 gal gas tank.
Posted by: Scooter86
Yes, they utilize the same motor. The Vinson will be faster, more agile and sportier, while the AC has better options to be set up as a hunting/icefishing machine. Both are capable of doing what you want, you have a tough decision to make.
Posted by: Catterman
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Originally posted by: TexasRoadlawyer
the auto has an advantage in the mud? how so? I am VERY curious to hear that one explained...if the basic principle is getting torque to the wheels, how does a belt drive have any advantage?
Personally, I find that having the ability to wind out the engine in the gear I want to be in is a destinct advantage that greatly outweighs having to move my left foot up and down on occasion...but thats just my opinion
The other factor is water crossings...the auto has the added risk (albeit minimal) of getting flooded and the belt getting wet, whereas the manual will not. (unless you flood the engine, and then both types will have the same problem)
For the most part it is personal preference. However with the CVT you are always in the correct "gear". A manual isn't going to be able to rev the engine any more then the CVT. Plus, you won't lose any momentium with the CVT, like you would with the manual and having to let off the gas to shift. To me that is a huge advantage. I have also seen where the shifter gets full of mud or snow that it is harder to shift, and the rider can't get his foot underneith to shift.
The only people who complain about wet belts are those that don't ride autos. I sunk my H1 and got water in the engine, however the belt was still dry and the day it was new.
Posted by: Catterman
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Originally posted by: TexasRoadlawyer
Catterman, did you really mean to say "The only people who complain about wet belts are those that don't ride autos" ??? Wow...well, I've read plenty of complaints about that very subject from Dirtwheels test riders doing tests on autos, so I guess they must be liars, or just plain incompetent riders.
Ever heard of Brian Fisher? He does the "Fisher's ATV World" adventure program you might catch on TV every now and then. He also wrote a feature in DirtWheels a couple of months back about a trip he took in Central America where the auto-tranny Bombardiers he and his riding buddies were on were constantly taking on water in deeper crossings and they were having to winch them out and let them dry out...guess he made that up too, since he probably didn't have anything else to write about (like scenery, volcanoes, indigenious animals, etc.)
But maybe you're one of those skeptics who don't believe everything you read...so try and keep up with me here...
If the autos are so freakin' waterproof, answer these two questions if you can....
1) Why do the manufacturers make drains for their auto transmissions, and have instructions for their use in the owners manual?
2) Why do the the only two aftermarket snorkel makers have seperate auto-transmission-only snorkel kits for them?
The answer is really easy here amigo... it's because they DO take on water, and they DO get their belts wet.
To be honest, I don't watch TV (except for the Vikings and Twins games )or read ATV magazines so I have NO CLUE as to who those guys are or what they do. But I do know that many editors of those shows/mags have hidden ajenda's with their "advertisers". My comment was made from my observation in real life and on this forum. Go to the Arctic Cat, Polaris, and Yamaha sections and search for wet belts. It is dang near impossible to find one. I have only seen it happen once, and that was because it came though the intake. Easy to dry out and he was on his way again (Chumley, he is a member here so you can ask him too).
So to answer both your questions it is because of course if you get water in there through the intake that isn't good. So it only makes sense to have a drain. However, a lot of them don't even have drains.
Posted by: 700vtwinman
From what I understand from your requirements, the AC500 should be the one. The vinson is one of the top 500cc machines, but based on what you said you will use it for, the AC500 will be better. When you say power, I assume that you are not talking about top speed b/c of the useage you mention. As far as power to tow and climb and mud, the AC500 has plenty. And furthermore, from what I understand, AC has their low ranges geared lower than most so you basically have a tractor in low range. Now if you want to win a drag race or fast sporty riding, the AC500 is not the one, but based on what you said you are looking for, the AC500 is the right choice. IMO, if I was getting the AC500, I would get the manual b/c when in low range, the reverse is also low range as well. The only time I burned up a belt was pulling someone out in reverse and since automatics don't have low range for reverse, I smoked it. Going forward in low is no problem what so ever.
Posted by: oldturtle
The new ACs can also be equipped with factory optional anti sway bar if you decide you want a little more trail cornering stability at sacrifice of some rear suspension travel and comfort. I think you will prefer the AC with diff lock and IRS.
Posted by: weez440
from what i understand the power is quite significant. the vinson can get up and boogey where the cat is a lil more sluggish in high range. from what i hear though the 500 cat is geared lower and can pull a mack truck. if you would have said all you are gonna do is trail riding i would say go with the vinny but for your purposes deffinately the cat. if power for the trails is a concern with the 500 you could always step it up for about 1000 more and get the 650 H1.
Posted by: weez440
on a flat out drag race the manual will beat the auto but when it comes to being in the mud the auto will throttle the manual. when it comes to hunting driving in area's with alot of obstructions and sometimes holding onto something the auto is a nice way to go you don't have to worry bout shifting it. everyone has their preferences and i agree that the vinny should have a locking diff and i am sure soon they will.
Posted by: weez440
if they raced an 02 compared to an 03 the horsepower difference is about 20 percent, i know i owned both the 02 and the 03. as for the auto being better in the mud then the manual let me explain. with the manual you are always over revving to get the wheels to spin and ultimately clean the tires off which is ok but different mud requires different amounts of power. sometimes you can go in and rev it up in 2nd gear and make it through and sometimes you get halfway through and have to downshift in the middle and that slight hesitation is usually enough to keep you there. oh and i forgot to mention missing a shift if you want to click it up into second and don't quite get it there you are over reving the motor and not going anywhere. with the auto you are always on the edge of your power band and i can get my wheels to spin faster and not over rev the motor. ok now with that out of the way your comment about sucking in water into the belt being an added hazzard factor while out on the trail. well let me tell you that i have drowned my atv's out a couple of different times and if i get water on my belt i got water in my engine and when i do need to dry my belt off all i do is put it in neutral and rev it up the clutch will blow all the water right back out. and i also wanted to say propnut was right i remember back to when we raced my 02 auto cat compmared to an 02 manual cat andi had more.
Posted by: weez440
the auto's have a bad rap from back in the day when polaris was the only atv with automatic tranny's and sometimes the heat from the motor would warp the clutch cover alowing water to seep to the belt. i had it happen once when i was busting through a pond about 2 feet deep going at a pretty good rate of speed to clean off my machine and some spray got in my belt so all i did was put it in neutral and rev it up for a min and everything dried out and away i went.
Posted by: weez440
i have never heard of an arctic cat having the warping problem, and incase anyone is throwen the spray got in through my breather up by my gas tank. i haven't heard of the polaris's doing this for a couple of years but i know it was a problem up to a couple of years ago. and as far as the can am's go i know absolutely nothing about them so i will take your word for it.
Posted by: TexasRoadlawyer
I too was a Red Rider (Honda) for years, but I got tired of waiting for Honda to use front and rear disc brakes on their big ATVs (am still waiting) So I bought a Vinson
The Vinson is still one of the biggest engines to have a manual shift, so that's why I haven't gone bigger. BTW, the manual smoked the auto in a drag test done by Dirtwheels a couple of years ago. Handling is probably the best in it's class. Dealer coverage will probably be better with the Suzuki, but I'm sure that's changing too
After two years of riding, I'm of the opinion that all the Vinson is lacking is a locking front differential, and fuel injection.
Posted by: TexasRoadlawyer
They raced a 2002 auto against a 2003 5-speed?...BULLCOOKIES!!!! Please tell me where you are getting that information, as well as where you got that the compression ratio went up to 10.2 (because if my '05 is indeed a 10.2 compression, it sure runs great off of regular unleaded) Not being confrontational here, just surprised all to hell if it's actually true, so please show me some proof
Nonetheless, I have raced a 2004 auto (bought Feb '04) with my 2005 5-speed (bought August '04) and the results were the same as in the Dirtwheels test, (and I even weighed 30 pounds more than the other rider) which were that I ripped him up on every acceleration test we could manage. Starting out in second and having no auto "lag" gives the manual the advantage every time, and the lack of the auto "lag" in the tight trails where you are on and off the gas is an advantage too.
Weez...the auto has an advantage in the mud? how so? I am VERY curious to hear that one explained...if the basic principle is getting torque to the wheels, how does a belt drive have any advantage?
Personally, I find that having the ability to wind out the engine in the gear I want to be in is a destinct advantage that greatly outweighs having to move my left foot up and down on occasion...but thats just my opinion
The other factor is water crossings...the auto has the added risk (albeit minimal) of getting flooded and the belt getting wet, whereas the manual will not. (unless you flood the engine, and then both types will have the same problem)
I've heard lots of stories about z400s having cracking problems, as well as the new 450 racer, but I've never heard of the Vinson cracking. Not saying it's not possible, just that I've never heard of it. The factory recall website I use is pretty current and it doesn't list any Vinson recalls except for the bolts holding the gas petcock are the wrong size
Posted by: TexasRoadlawyer
Prop- thanks for the info on compression, I'll still have to pull out the old issues and see for myself about the Dirtwheels drag test. As far as the cracked frame string, it sounds like their problems were due to impacting something other than the ground.
I absolutely agree with you about correct gear selection and loss of momentum...this is where the rider's experience and familiarity with his machine makes the difference. Necessary body english aside, autos just require you to keep your thumb in good shape. Yes, they are easier to operate (duh!) It is probably old school of me to think that part of the fun of riding is making your machine perform the way you want it to in getting it through the mud, up the hill, over the obstacle, etc., but there's a LOT of us veteran riders left who still think that way, and manuals do just that for us.
Catterman, did you really mean to say "The only people who complain about wet belts are those that don't ride autos" ??? Wow...well, I've read plenty of complaints about that very subject from Dirtwheels test riders doing tests on autos, so I guess they must be liars, or just plain incompetent riders.
Ever heard of Brian Fisher? He does the "Fisher's ATV World" adventure program you might catch on TV every now and then. He also wrote a feature in DirtWheels a couple of months back about a trip he took in Central America where the auto-tranny Bombardiers he and his riding buddies were on were constantly taking on water in deeper crossings and they were having to winch them out and let them dry out...guess he made that up too, since he probably didn't have anything else to write about (like scenery, volcanoes, indigenious animals, etc.)
But maybe you're one of those skeptics who don't believe everything you read...so try and keep up with me here...
If the autos are so freakin' waterproof, answer these two questions if you can....
1) Why do the manufacturers make drains for their auto transmissions, and have instructions for their use in the owners manual?
2) Why do the the only two aftermarket snorkel makers have seperate auto-transmission-only snorkel kits for them?
The answer is really easy here amigo... it's because they DO take on water, and they DO get their belts wet.
Now, I'm sure flooding the tranny doesn't happen every time you cross a stream, but it is a potential problem that the manual doesn't have. (notice that you don't see any manual transmission snorkels because the only way they take on water is when it's drawn into the engine) Saying that it doesn't or won't happen is like saying you won't ever get a flat tire, or like saying you won't ever get enough mud under the shift lever to where it won't shift (yes, that's happened to me once or twice)
Posted by: propnut
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BTW, the manual smoked the auto in a drag test done by Dirtwheels a couple of years ago
yes, but they raced a 02 auto to an 03 manual, and the 03 was retuned ("An increase in the compression ratio from 8.5 to 10.2 gives the new Vinson more off-the-line-power"). not fair
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on a flat out drag race the manual will beat the auto
Maybe on a screwed up or poorly tuned CVT, but I've experienced it before, as soon as you shift the manual you've lost (a quad length every shift) the race
However, I prefer manuals myself. My tranny can be either (sort of).
I looked at these two as well. I like the AC for going over stuff or through mud, or loading up the racks, but the Vinson is going to be more stable handling and on manuvers like sidehilling. Top speeds are not going to be that much different, I've had an AC500 (manual) going 63 on the speedo on level ground with a few mph left. MRP on the Cat is nice. However, their CVs are poorly protected. I've seen some posts about frames cracking on the Vinson (and other Suzukis, I work with someone that has a cracked TL1000 frame). Tough decision, both have their advantages.
Posted by: propnut
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Please tell me where you are getting that information, as well as where you got that the compression ratio went up to 10.2 (because if my '05 is indeed a 10.2 compression, it sure runs great off of regular unleaded)
go to suzuki.com and see for yourself, they include the compression ratio in the specs
I am NOT knocking the Vinson. I criticize my own machine too (and praise when applicable). I researched heavily in 03-04 before I bought, I researched so many sources I do not remember where I read about the drag race between the 02 auto and the 03 manual. The testers already had an 02 auto when they got the 03 manual, I'd drag race the two too!! They tweaked the engine for 03 but AC got a detuned engine for a while. The separate quote I included about the compression ratio came from ATV at offroad . com. The Vinson made it to my final choice with the Rubicon. I still like the Vinson, I'm not picking on it. I just couldn't get a Sorel under the shifter and the Honda tranny was the clincher (and the $5500 price). The AC was just to large and would have limited my riding areas and been a pain because of it's size.
The difference in mud (or long and steep hill climb) with the manual is you better choose the right gear BEFORE you hit the hill or you may end up having to shift and losing your momentum and getting stuck - these Vinson semi autos are slow shifters (relative to fully manual in the right hands). Automatic drivers never has to face that, but you give up some control that I prefer to have while riding fast through the woods or doing chores. A properly tuned auto is hard to beat in a drag race.
Cracked frame? Here's one example;
http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm?catid=12&threadid=477270&highlight_key=y&keyword1=vinson&keyword2=frame
Posted by: Hoopie
The vinson will be much more sporty handling but the cat will be much better a technical terrain like mud, rocks, logs and such. If your primary use is for hunting and fishing with a little trail riding the Cat is a way better choice with its ground clearance and rack space and 4x4 ability. Check out the accesories to arctic cat. arcticcat.com and you will be in heaven if fishing and hunting is your thing.
Posted by: Hoopie
You wont need any skids for the Arctic cat. they come on stock and do a great job.
Posted by: Hoopie
my buddy has a honda rubicon and I can beat him in a drag on my 500 manual arctic cat.
Posted by: Hoopie
Well I have both so i will complain about both!
I hate my manual because I have to shift gears and im lazy!
I hate my auto because my belt slips sometimes and the belt gets wet when i cross ponds!
I love my manual because theres no belt to get wet and much easier maintenance and much better control of the engine and power including EBS and works better for working and towing.
I love my Auto because Im lazy and I dont have to shift gears or think about what gear I should be in besides high or low.
Arguing over which one is better is absolutely stupid! What do you want to use if for primarly and go with the model that covers those benifts.
Posted by: Hoopie
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Originally posted by: weez440
the auto's have a bad rap from back in the day when polaris was the only atv with automatic tranny's and sometimes the heat from the motor would warp the clutch cover alowing water to seep to the belt. i had it happen once when i was busting through a pond about 2 feet deep going at a pretty good rate of speed to clean off my machine and some spray got in my belt so all i did was put it in neutral and rev it up for a min and everything dried out and away i went.
Weez,
The can am 800 still have the same problem (some do) that the clutch cover warps because of the heat so its still an issue with autos. Its not a polaris thing.
Posted by: DDDonkey
I think that they are still the same motor. The AC has diff lock ( I think ) and the IRS but those are the only major diffrences that I can think of right now. You will want a skid plate that is a much for most people. Like Hoopie said the vinson will be more sporty but the IRS is a nice ride. If you can swing it I would get the AC with the LE package but that is me. What ever you choose will be a good machine. Good Luck and welcome!!
Posted by: v2rider
Both great machines, but i give the vote to AC, as i am a hunter and outdoorsman, and can convert my quad from Deer Hunting,(attatch your deerstand, gun scabbard, and cargobox) to Ice Fishing,(attatch your ice auger, fishing pole holder, and two buckets, and pull your ice house) to Trail Riding in Seconds, no joke! The speedrack is awesome
Posted by: v2rider
The power in both machines is the same. as they have the same motor, so its up to you
Posted by: v2rider
My auto sat in water up to my seat for about 10 minutes, and didnt have a drop of water in it. There isnt a problem anymore really. They have figured out how to seal them up pretty well. The drain is just a precautionary drain, incase the seal went bad. I think people who complain about autos are manual riders myself also.
Posted by: v2rider
Thats funny, nobodys AC is having that problem now days.
Posted by: RancherATCrazy
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Originally posted by: v2rider
I think people who complain about autos are manual riders myself also.
Well Said!
Posted by: hntrfshr
Hello, I was looking for opinions on these two machines. Had my mind made up on the Vinson, until my visit to the dealer. He was out of the camo Vinson's, but showed me the AC500. I liked the clearance on the AC, along with the two year warranty, full skid plate,and IRS but the extra weight scared me a bit. How do these machines compare power-wise? My primary use would be hunting and ice fishing, with a little trail riding mixed in.
Thanks in advance!!
Posted by: hntrfshr
Thank you all for the responses. I am still undecided, but hope to make a decision in the next week. Will the AC be "doggy" with the extra weight? I was always a Honda guy, but I was unimpressed with the acceleration on my buddies Rubicon. I can get the AC500 camo for $5850, while the Vinson would be $5600. The warranty, clearance, and skid plate is making me lean towards the AC, my only concern is power. Thanks again for all of the advice.
Posted by: ROWDY33
I have an 04 Vinson. I've had only 2 minor problems with it. The Vinson has a Limitd slip diferentail in the front. So their are no switches or levers to make it work.
With factory tires mine would go 62mph. Now I have 26-10-12 and 26-12-12 Mud gear tires its slowed down to 58mph. I was a little worried about the big heavier tires at first but it seems to be fine.
The vinson has alot of good stuff on it for the money. I ride alot at night and have 3 front head lights. Two at the front and one on the handle bar.
The gear selector is the easiest to use that I've see with the auto trans. Push a small button in and slide straight up or down for its position. Not a zig zag selector.
I like the hyd disc breaks like poasted above. Not cables and shoes.
Something I don't like is the rev limiter in reverse. I trailor a small amount of firewood and back it in the garage up a hill and its a lil work to get it in their.
Both are good choices. If you are an older guy I'd sugest the AC for its independent rear axel. Alot smoother ride.
Posted by: ROWDY33
QUOTE!
"However, their CVs are poorly protected. I've seen some posts about frames cracking on the Vinson (and other Suzukis,".
As I read the issue of the manual vs the auto I wanted to argue it. But I had nothing to back it up. I believe the auto is the way to go for sure in a drag race.
My Vinson fraim ain't broke "YET". I know Polaris had weak fraims in the past. I had two 1999 500 4X4 scramblers. One the exhaust weld broke. The other the swingarm bent or something and it wouldn't hold the chain on. kept falling off. And the swing arm bolts would never stay tight. For that I'll never go back to Polaris anytome soon!
