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Posted by: Scooter86
If you really want to ride 2-up, IMO you are much better off buying a quad designed for it from the manufacturer. Especially if the second rider is a full on adult. Many of the hard tank bags for the rear ute racks are seats with storage. They just can't really be marketed that way. I know in NY, as long as the unit is bolted to the rack/frame, the DEC and troopers won't bother you to much riding double on something like a Brute Force. There are many places around the country that even that is not allowed though.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
I would love to see the accident statistics when it comes to riding two up on a single rider ATV especially as it relates to spinal cord injury and permanent paralysis and the resulting para and quadriplegics.
It's a matter of time some smart trial lawyer really hits the jackpot by litigating the makers of those extra seats which are specifically designed to facilitate the rider and passenger to do something which the manufacturer and the industry specifically and repeatedly warns against doing and that is manifestly unsafe.
If you want to ride two up get a two up ATV. There are several on the market. Some are quite good. There are side by sides if you don't want to ride front to back. There is always the option of electric wheelchairs. They don't come in two up models as far as I know. On the other hand emptying catheter bags and colostomy bags often requires assistance as does transferring in and out of bed and to the shower etc.....
Posted by: CaptainQuint
Don't get me wrong, as a Libertarian, I'm fine with people doing whatever they wish and doing so with the full realization of the risks involved. However in our Nanny State that is just slopping over with slimy trial lawyers you can bet your backside that the people who are running out an buying those seats and driving around with their wives and kids on the back and end up flipping it and severing wifey's spinal cord up at the C-2 Level are going to be the first ones running to Larry H. Lawyer and dragging Kimpex and the ATV industry into court. You can also bet that once the first multimillion dollar judgment comes down involving one of these things the other lawyers are going to smell blood in the water.
Inevitably you will see these same people who were probably once also once praising those same seats(not talking about anyone here so don't get all worked up) now showing up on programs like 20/20 and Dateline NBC and 60 Minutes tearfully recounting how Kimpex or Cabelas marketed those unsafe seats and how those evil ATV manufacturers made such powerful and unsafe vehicles! There will be elaboratly staged tests showing how easlily ATVs roll over complete with actual ATVs, lifesize crash test dummies, guys in white lab coats and white hardhats, CGI graphics and breathless gasps at the results. There will be tearful pictures and videos of the dead loved one in happier times and shots of the mangled deathtrap ATV. The chocked up survivors. The courageous lawyer attempting to get justice from the evil purveyors of dangerous products. They'll stage skillfully edited interviews with the ATV manufacturers and seatbox makers that cast them as capitalist villains out only to make a buck “when they KNEW their products were unsafe”(god, how they LOVE that phrase! The money sentence). Then comes the obligatory interviews with the Consumer Product Safety Commission, various private nanny groups, tree huggers, and the ubiquitous politician who has worked tirelessly for years to solve the problem with no success stopped by the Evil Big Business. Of course it all wraps up with the emotional crescendo with lots of weeping and the call for government regulation. Oh yeah. I know how they work those stories. It's as easy as ABC. Or CBS or NBC as the case may be. And what follows comes as naturally as dawn follows the night. That's right boys and girls. Say it with me now: Government Regulation.
If we're really lucky the industry can bribe enough politicians and nothing happens. If not, it results in yet more regulations and everyone ends up back here b*tching and whining about more government oversight on what we do on our ATVs. So yeah, I'm fine with letting people suffer the consequences of their own actions. I'm freaking ecstatic with doing it! Unfortunately, when it's done in this case you just watch the results. It's the way the game gets played in our sissy-fied feminized Nanny State.
*sigh* America must have a heck of place back when it was free.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
How what I wrote got misconstrued into me being scared to ride an ATV and in favor of government regulations is beyond me but since my point is apparently so elusive as to have totally escaped some, I'll attempt to clarify it.
In the theoretical sense, personally, I could care less what you do. Ride double or triple or quadruple and do so while naked or standing on your head. I have no personal interest either if you wreck or if you are injured while doing so. I could care less if you dump the ATV and crush the Mrs. cervical vertebrae or splatter the spogs all over 350 ft of slickrock. Makes no difference to me.
However. I was attempting to explain how given the litigious and Nannyfied state of affairs in which we were living, the way things will actually work when something like this hits the right set of circumstances. These boxes which are marketed with a wink and a nod to the actual purpose for which they are intended, a purpose for which Original Vehicle Manufacturer specifically says is unsafe will end up winning the legal jackpot sweepstakes for some trial lawyer. You think that warning is going to stop a judgment? Oh I wish it would. But not in this day and age of victimhood and legal lunacy..
Riding double on a single ATV is more dangerous. Can it be done safely? Of course. Should it be encouraged with these boxes? Not encouraged but definitely not restricted. I wouldn't want to see them banned or anything. I don't see it as a particularly bright thing to do but people are free to do as they wish.
Anything that leads to more adverse publicity to our sport will lead to more regulation and restrictions. The CPSC and the other bed wetting types have been trying to ban and otherwise restrict ATVs for years. Letting them get their teeth into something like those seat boxes would be a perfect opening. I've been really surprised it hasn't been done before. You just watch...They will. You also watch if there is a seat box involved there will be some ATVer there weeping and wailing right behind with a lawyer in tow and the news shows chasing right behind him with a gaggle of cameras.
BTW One woman I know of who was permanently injured in an incident (rear rollover resulting in paralysis) had several lawyers after them who had heard of her accident. Only reason she didn't sue was for religious reasons.
Posted by: Catterman
Good post.
Posted by: CWG
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Originally posted by: kwb377
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Originally posted by: trvman
all it takes is one person to say it was a seat that caused my legs to be broken and now i cant walk for some sue happy tree hugger to shut down more of our trails! we say we follow ALL the rules by staing on the trail well how can you say i follow ALL the rules if you ride two up on a atv that warns aganist that? we should try to follow all the laws so we dont feed the fire for anti atvers.
Are you serious?
First off, it's not illegal (at least where I live) to ride a passenger on an ATV. Just because a manufacturer advises against it in an owner's manual doesn't make it illegal (I notice that you have Maxxis Bighorns...I'll bet your manufacturer advises against using non-stock tires, also).
Second, I notice in your pic gallery that you're riding a passenger, and have this quote "we put three per bike and just go"...also see a wheelie there too (that's safer than riding a passenger?) , and someone riding without a helmet.
OH SNAP!
Posted by: montyh
the injuries would be directly porportional to the lack of common sense the operator has. i rode the Poison Spider/Golden Spike/Gold Bar Rim trail (rated as 4+, THE most difficult atv trail in Moab by the local club there) RIDING DOUBLE with another couple doing the same. no accidents or injuries. i ride double over 90% of the time, and have logged thousands of miles on very difficult trails doing this. never had an injury while riding. probably about 40%-50% of the trail traffic i have seen over the years have been a couple riding double on a single rider atv.
each person makes their own rules, and i do not suggest others do this. but i do not believe a couple of inches can make the difference between "death trap" and "total safety". if you wish for total safety you should not be on an atv in the first place.
kvfcal, we just use a regular trunk on the brute, and both sit on the seat. we are both kinda skinny, tho, so this may not work for everyone. this does put the weight lower and foreward of the rear axle. the trunk we use is the Tamarak Standard Quad Trunk, and it has a back rest built in. there are trunks that look like Harley Road King seats, and should be comfy, but more expensive and put the weight higher and farther back. would work fine on roads, but not on any of the more difficult stuff. just use common sense.
you will probalby want to invest in the Kimpex (or similar) fender protectors/foot fegs. these help the passenger stay put going down hills and add to the comfort of the ride.
just my .02
monty
Posted by: montyh
wow. i'm surprised you ride an atv at all. it must be kind of scary in your world.
there have been years for that little chain of events to unfold, and i'm not seeing it happen. maybe, just maybe, the "not intended for passenger use" covers the manufacturer, and people can buy them and use them every day at their own risk without incident. like about half of everyone on the trails around here.
i have not even read of an injury from riding double, but i'm sure it happens, just as it happens from going too fast, or drinking and riding. like v2 says, the govt. is relaxing on this one. (say it with me. less governtment regulation). there are quite a few places it is legal. if you go to any area with heavy atv traffic like Utah, you will see it is probably legal (like in Utah or Minnesota) or not enforced. that is because so many people are successfully doing this without incident. it does require caution and the passenger will have to hop off and walk the difficult sections, but it can be done without injury.
monty
Posted by: TexasRoadlawyer
Here's the problem(s) from a lawyer's perspective:
First, if you think someone's being a bit satirical about the ATV rider turned ATV TV show victim, maybe they are a little, but then remember the 3-wheelers. 3-wheelers were lawsuited right out of production because no one wanted to learn how to ride them before they bought them...parents thought little Johnny would be safer on a 3-wheeler than a mini-bike, only Johnny knew the basics of mini-bikes because he rode a bicycle first...not so for 3-wheelers. No prior riding experience = a busted melon for Lil Johnny when he tried to make his first turn at speed, especially when coupled with no helmet. Who gets burned?...not the injured kid...not the grieving parent...but the deep-pocketed manufacturers, (as well as all of us capable of exercising common sense.)
It's common sense that people lack...then when they get injured for not having/using common sense, they want to place blame on someone else. What is common sense? Unfortunately, it is not all that common....common sense tells me to put a helmet on because my head is not harder than the rock it might hit if I fell off my ATV for some reason, but as we all know, too many people think it's ok to ride without a helmet. Common sense tells me that smoking cigarettes causes cancer, yet the tobacco industry is nowhere close to being shut down. Common sense tells me to buckle my seatbelt before I start driving, yet police issue thousands of citations each year for drivers not wearing seatbelts.
The "seat" manufacturers you speak of cannot call their cushioned product a seat, because although common sense tells you that the ATV will handle safely with the rider and a certain amount of cargo weight, some dumbass will buy one and bolt it on, and then think it will make it safe for his 300 pound wife to ride behind him (when the ATV's max cargo weight is less than half that) The guy then rolls/flips it over on himself or goes off a cliff because it is unbalanced and won't handle worth a damn, yet he'll blame the seat manufacturer and try to sue to recover for his injuries.
Same goes for the ATV manufacturer....they HAVE to tell you that the design is for one person, because otherwise someone who is too damned big to ride will get on the back of the seat(once again weighing more then the allowed cargo weight) and it will cause the vehicle to become unbalanced and unstable and susceptible to roll-over...so when it happens who do they sue? you got it...the manufacturer.
I have ridden for years with my children/girlfriends holding on behind me, but they all have weighed far less than the recommended cargo weight limit of my ATVs, and I have always ridden with common sense.
Don't blame the lawyers...they're just going where the money is...blame the sorry asses who won't own up to their own damned stupidity and lack of common sense and who hire the lawyers to try to cover it up.
Posted by: trvman
all it takes is one person to say it was a seat that caused my legs to be broken and now i cant walk for some sue happy tree hugger to shut down more of our trails! we say we follow ALL the rules by staing on the trail well how can you say i follow ALL the rules if you ride two up on a atv that warns aganist that? we should try to follow all the laws so we dont feed the fire for anti atvers.
Posted by: trvman
i am serious! and yes i break the law everyyday i go faster than 55 mph i ride three up on my bikes and i ride without a helmit but what i am saying is i better not here anyone BLAME the atv or the kimpex seat or the manufactures or anything of the sort! dont need to get your panties in a scruntch i never said i was perfect! but stupid people get rich everyday by suing big business's for there own carelessness. lets all just be safe!!!!
ps. artic cat says nothing aboght non stock tires! so dont go there.
Posted by: trvman
AMEN!!!!
Posted by: v2rider
The rack storage bags and boxes with the seat like look, are obviousley what they made them for, but they cant advertise them as a second seat.
Posted by: v2rider
311 bucks ?!?!?!?! CRAZY. I seen some for 150. But mabey that one is better. (executive) The one i saw was probably the "janitor" version
Posted by: v2rider
Its now legal in Minnesota to ride a passenger also, starting this year. I read the 2006 ATV regulations
Posted by: v2rider
If it damages the quad with to much weight, i dont think anyone would tell the insurance agent that they had two people on it anyway. That would be foolish
Posted by: mykool61679
its legal to ride two up in wayne national forest, as long as you have two passes. riding two up isnt dangerous now riding towe up (tore up) that not good sometimes. as long as you use your head alittle its safe.
Posted by: vinny04
Nearly everyone you meet around hear has 2 people on the quad Kimpex "non passanger" seats are very common. I have a passanger lots of times with me I got about 4300KM on the bike now and I'd guess half was with a passanger. I like to pack a lunch and go for a ride on the old railbed with my gf on the back we went 300km one day, 200km another and numerous 50-100km trips last year. If your not ridding like an A$$ than its safe obviously you wouldn't go up as steep of inclines or over big rocks like you would riding solo. I rode double on the 200m for 20 years before I got my own quad without incident. I think it depends on the mentality of the driver some guys are just stupid.
Posted by: vinny04
Our Provincial Govt. (Newfoundland) revised atv regulations last year and now those little kids atv's 50cc-90cc are only to be riden by children aged 12-16. There was quite a bit of protest but the govt. went ahead with it. I recall last year on the news they had a 15 year old boy (about 6 feet tall) sitting on a 90cc bike and it looked silly I'd say it is more unsafe for him to be riding an atv that is to small physically for him. A wind screen,helmet with visor, or goggles are aslo required. Another funny regulation snowmobilers are not required to wear helmets I guess it wouldn't help anyway at the speeds they travel LOL.
Posted by: Marchboom
One more thing to consider:
If you have insurance on your ATV, will it still be valid if you are riding with a passenger?
Might want to check your policy.
Riding "2 up" might just void out the coverage.
Posted by: Marchboom
I wasn't thinking about damage to the ATV. I was thinking of an incident where the rider and/or passenger are injured and try to make an insurance claim to pay for the medical bills. That wouldn't be the time to find out that there was a little clause in the policy that voids the policy if 2 people are on the ATV. Personally, I would have no problem riding with a passenger and I respect those who say it is not safe. Guess it just comes down to how and where you ride I just know that when it comes to insurance companies paying out, they will look for ANY reason not to. It's just a good idea to know ahead of time.
Posted by: kwb377
I've got a Moose Executive utility box and it works well riding the kids or the wife. It has straps for temporary mounting (I wouldn't recommed for passenger use), and U-bolts for more secure mounting to the rear rack.
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=&store=&catId=106&productId=p504192&leafCatId=10602&mmyId=
Posted by: kwb377
Yeah, Dennis Kirk is a little high on price. I've seen 'em for @240, which is still on the premium side. I haven't really compared other brands, as I got the Moose box at the dealer when I bought my Rancher.
Posted by: kwb377
Quote
Originally posted by: trvman
all it takes is one person to say it was a seat that caused my legs to be broken and now i cant walk for some sue happy tree hugger to shut down more of our trails! we say we follow ALL the rules by staing on the trail well how can you say i follow ALL the rules if you ride two up on a atv that warns aganist that? we should try to follow all the laws so we dont feed the fire for anti atvers.
Are you serious?
First off, it's not illegal (at least where I live) to ride a passenger on an ATV. Just because a manufacturer advises against it in an owner's manual doesn't make it illegal (I notice that you have Maxxis Bighorns...I'll bet your manufacturer advises against using non-stock tires, also).
Second, I notice in your pic gallery that you're riding a passenger, and have this quote "we put three per bike and just go"...also see a wheelie there too (that's safer than riding a passenger?) , and someone riding without a helmet.
Posted by: kwb377
Since I'm apparently a bad parent and husband for riding my kids and wife (not at the same time) on level, non-challenging trails and exposing them to a near death experience, I may as well confess and say that I bought my 5 year old a Yamaha that was expressly designed for use by children 6 and up [gasp!]. I expect the black helicopters to be over my house any minute now. img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif" border="0">img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif" border="0">
Posted by: kwb377
I'm inclined to believe that if years of people letting their kids ride adult ATV's by themselves (and crashing) hasn't doomed the sport, these lounge boxes sure aren't going to do it.
Posted by: acpower
theres a hard storage box/seat made by a compay called Kimpex. check them out, nice coushined seat and nice storage.
Posted by: kvfcal
Anyone know or heard of a company coming up with a 2 up seating attatchment for Utilitys? I see several models have them and I don't see why it wouldn't work say like on my BF 750 I just need something that the Ranger or Sheriff will be happy with as for as compliance with local laws.
Whats up Kawasaki? get off your butts and make the conversion.
Posted by: kvfcal
I would say I got a pretty good response from my question. Thanks for all your post. Calvin
I WANNA RIDE!
