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Posted by: cc1999
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Originally posted by: v2rider
So what your saying is bomb is better in every department than the other atv's? Bomb is a great quad, but besides power, isnt any better in anything else than the other quads, in my opinion. Or mabey thats not what your saying, and im just being bias. lol
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, do your research, test ride them and buy what you like best. I mainly just get a kick out of fokes who try and run the Outy down by saying they are not good in the mud or they are not good at pulling things when there was one of the largest open mud and pulling competitons in the contry, held just a few weeks ago that was dominated by an Outy 800. As far as racks go IMO its allot cheaper to mod the racks than the motor or suspension to make a machine like you may want it to be like. Now if you are into lifting them, then the Outy is not your best choice.
Posted by: reconranger
The average buyer is just looking for a trail riding machine. They aren't out pulling stumps and they aren't out looking to navigate the most terrifying terrain. They just want a comfy ride on a machine that is of reasonale size and weight, but they also want 4X4 in case they get into trouble out there on the trail. The Honda Rancher is the best selling atv, so that tells you what most folks are looking for in their machine!
Folks are here in the forum, because they are ENTHISIASTS. You may be looking to go rock crawling or mud bogging every weekend, but not so the average rider. So, a review is naturally going to favor the needs of thousands of average buyers, not just a minority of big bore enthusiasts.
Actually, I hope we see a major evolutionary divergence of atv utility designs: One fork in the road will be along the lines of what we have today.......big bore(ing) "death trap rollover" machines that still show their "farm work tractor" heritage. Then, another fork that will follow the lead of the new Yamaha Wolvarine (still to big and heavy for my taste) and truely be "sport" utes.
When we reach that point, you other guys can have your own magazines with your own tractor pull reviews. Until then, the market place majority will rule how things get reviewed.
Posted by: Mdog
Most mags said they would have picked the Outlander as the overall winner even if it did not have that motor.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
Some good points being made here.
While it isn't the be all and end all things like 0-60 or whatever the ATV equivalent is and a few sheer performance comparisons between machines are useful. Useful data mind you not the basis for which is superior and which is not. What those numbers are good for is for getting a general guide on how the power compares between machines. The good thing about these sorts of tests is that they are for the most part objective. One is indeed faster than another and one is indeed slower than another all things like rider weight and the like being equal. Handling and other things are subjective. It is opinion for the most part.
Now, what I would like to see is more testing being done with weight on racks. Perhaps in two different stages. One light, one at full rack limit. Also some mud work. Not necessarily the crazy competition mud bog stuff but the normal mud you would encounter in normal work and trail conditions. The stuff that would get you stuck. Then some deep water like one would encounter when fording a stream or creek. Seat height water. Also some hill climb and side hill performance tests. These could be done on an actual test rig to determine side roll point and front and real roll points with and without rider first and then move on to real world testing. These tests should also be done with and without rack loads. Then some pulling tests of some sort. Now if you really wanted to make things even you should put the same make and model of tire on each machine during the test. After all that would be the best way to determine the true performance of each machine. Tires are a HUGE variable when it comes to a test.
That would be a good start to real utility testing. Sure better than "we rode atv A around and it was really fast and it seemed to handle pretty good certainly better than atv B".
Posted by: oldturtle
One moto rag does a loaded down test through a rock patch whenever they do a shoot out. This test is actually very valuable information for potential buyers but only results in criticism to machines doing well such as Arctic Cat.
Posted by: oldturtle
My take on subject is that testers always place high trail speed/handling above all else when it comes to the final ratings. This has nothing to do about being able to handle testers abuse. So I do not believe that 4xZuk gets it. The Honda Ranchers are without question the most reliable and most desirable for the family farmer who just wants the thing to start in every imaginable weather condition and run out to the mail box for many years. Yet the Rancher will always be slammed because it cannot keep up with the Eiger in the hills and because it doesn't have hi/lo and diff lock when it makes no difference to the farmer. The Arctic Cats are usually the best ride for the mud and for most rough terrain situations like rocks and logs and are absolutely the champ in heavy duty work and hunting situations. Yet the testers ignore these reasons for making the purchase decision in lieu of racing performance. Honda and Arctic Cat owners in particular but also Polaris owners have every reason to be especially proud of their rides and the performance they provide relative to their needs. But the moto rags will never give enough credit to the important reasons we actually make a selection. The testers will down play serious defects in the new models because they are swept up in the hype of new model. They will make a huge deal out of tiny differences and yet overlook totally the important reasons we make our choices. So I don't buy into idea that race speed testing is either necessary to test the durability of new machines or even relative to our purchase decision. The moto rags are loosing large portion of potential subscribers because of the desire to appear cutting edge when this is not the point for most of us.
Posted by: weez440
you are 100 percent right and 2 years ago it was the 750 bf cause it had the largest displacement and most power so i guess that automatically makes them machines with the shootout. oh did you guys read the one between the 750 bf the 760 sportsman and the 800 outlander, big suprise there the outlander won. if you are serious about getting a big bore and have say 3 of them to choose from go to the respected forums and ask the people who own them what they really like and what they dislike. you will get real life answers by people who put time and miles on them.
Posted by: weez440
lol those magazines always criticize the cat. one helpful place to test out the utilities is in the mud and they never do. if you own a utility one time or another you will have to use it in the mud no way around it but they won't test them in there. and oldturtle is right loaded down the cat does well in rocky terrain but it just ends up in more criticism. i take whatever they say with a grain of salt and know that i got the perfect machine for me and what my uses are.
Posted by: weez440
if they wanna test reliability you won't be beating a machine by just trail riding even fastpace trail riding lets put some weight to these utilities and go play in some hardcore mud. put 29.5 in tires on all of them and break them let us know what is the best utility not the best sport/utility out there. i say get rid of the sport riders who test them and go with guys like most of us that actually use out utilities to the best of their abilities and beyond.
Posted by: weez440
what i would really like to see is you guys taking all these big bores beating the hell out of them for a year and put about 6000 miles on them and honestly tell us everything that went wrong with every one of them. i dunno how much biased personal feelings towards certain atv's or how much certain manufacturers pay for advertisement towards that respected magazine influence your tests but i wanna see a yearlong test. yes i do realize that atv's change from year to year and you wouldn't be reporting on the new up and coming atv's you would be basically reporting on yesterdays news but it gives people a good basis on what they want from an atv, how it stood up, where it was great and where it was horrible lets see a 50 page setup on this test alone after a year. give me something i can take into the bathroom and come out saying that is good reporting it is about time. oh and nobody gives a damn about top speed. one thing that would be interesting though is put them in low range and clock them from 0-30 mph lets see who has the low grunt.
Posted by: 4xZuk
Guys: here's the deal.....When you talk about magazines/testers roaching the utes out in "race" type situations, understand one thing: The manufacturers are slanting towards SPORT/utes. If these quads can withstand the abuse we bestow upon them, they can take the work you guys want to dole out. Albeit, I agree that we need to test these things w/ the racks loaded.....Please respond to this post w/ honest input, because, believe it or not, I am an advocate of the UTE side of Sport/utes too. Don't get me wrong, I love to blast these babies at race speed, but I also understand how most folks use a 4x. Just my .02 here. Feel free to blast away, but also be true to yourself.
Posted by: 4xZuk
After reading this thread (and patiently waiting on things to unfold) I have a few comments/questions/quips to throw in. Honestly, what do you all think would be the benchmark, be-all, end-all Ute test. All categories. EVERYTHING. What does it take to be KING o' the hill? You guys want to bust the speed freak in us. Do you want a bunch of Pu$$ies testing these things? A comment about 0-60 times being used to gauge power was spot-on. Plus, there are a bunch of folks that ride these things (myself included) as the ultimate quad! Sport power and performance, yet the ability to kick 'er into 4x and motor through the crud. Hey, and BONUS, I can even throw a cooler and camping equiptment on the racks and head out to Bum-Fu-k for a weekend! So fellas-what are you guys looking for as the ULTIMATE test? You've got an "ear" w/ an inside line. Spell it out. Thanks, in advance, for your input: good and pi$$ed off!
Posted by: 4xZuk
I want to clear something up, BTW, the last line on my previous post was intended to mean all responses are welcome, good and (should have read those of you that are irritated)......I agree there are some good ideas here, but think cost effective and efficient. As for long term stuff, I'm doing the BRP800 right now. Yeah, it's fun, it works, etc. It also has an ugly side, just like the rest. If you guys could set up the test, again, what would be the categories and what % would each hold. Now, would it be interesting to read? Think 5 tests that would be important to the over-all ute crowd. I'm 39, but still race and ride hard. I do like to cruise w/ the family too. Still, I guess I/we are a little out of touch w/ some of you guys and I'd like to help change that.
Posted by: 4xZuk
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Originally posted by: reconranger
The average buyer is just looking for a trail riding machine. They aren't out pulling stumps and they aren't out looking to navigate the most terrifying terrain. They just want a comfy ride on a machine that is of reasonale size and weight, but they also want 4X4 in case they get into trouble out there on the trail. The Honda Rancher is the best selling atv, so that tells you what most folks are looking for in their machine!
Folks are here in the forum, because they are ENTHISIASTS. You may be looking to go rock crawling or mud bogging every weekend, but not so the average rider. So, a review is naturally going to favor the needs of thousands of average buyers, not just a minority of big bore enthusiasts.
Actually, I hope we see a major evolutionary divergence of atv utility designs: One fork in the road will be along the lines of what we have today.......big bore(ing) "death trap rollover" machines that still show their "farm work tractor" heritage. Then, another fork that will follow the lead of the new Yamaha Wolvarine (still to big and heavy for my taste) and truely be "sport" utes.
When we reach that point, you other guys can have your own magazines with your own tractor pull reviews. Until then, the market place majority will rule how things get reviewed.
Amen to that. I think the $ of the Rancher has a LOT to do w/ its popularity. After reading this thread and taking notes, I realize that there is no way we can satisfy everyone with a test. What I'll try to do, though, is plug in some more utility stuff, to go along with the trail bangin'. I reside in the mid-south and ride a ute every day. The last time I was on a sport quad was in Feb', out in So-Cal. So, you see, I am a ute-dude. Would you guys say that Mike Penland isn't a ute guy do to the fact that he's been RACING utes for years? Just curious. What about Scott Kilby, Micheal Swift, Brock Parker?
Posted by: dranem
I agree....too much emphasise on speed
I wouldnt buy a pick up truck based on the fact that it can do 0 to 60 mph in less seconds than another......nor would I buy a mountain bike because the gearing lets me achieve a higher speed ( meaning I would take a fragile highway street bicycle on rough trails ). Testers talk about how the speed of this or that model puts a smile ear to ear on his face and thats why he picked it as #1. Bet you he wouldn't be smiling if he had to walk 10 miles out of the bush because his ECM unit broke, or his tie rod broke or whatever .
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The testers will down play serious defects in the new models because they are swept up in the hype of new model. They will make a huge deal out of tiny differences and yet overlook totally the important reasons we make our choices
I also agree about the hype of a new model. A new model comes out and its the best thing since sliced bread. They never mention the stuff that goes wrong in the first production year....Some of these are serious problems....tie rods breaking, ECM units, reverse breaking, bad handling in off cambers ( never run into THIS in the bush do ya? .....The bike is unstable driving sideways on a hill, but boy oh boy it'll do 66 mph ), maintenance issues, etc
Whats the sense of having the best, most comfortable riding, best performing ATV if it constantly breaks down or has known prolems....they neglect to mention this lots of time
They should also have dependability reviews on existing models....ones that have been out for a few years. I ride by myself 99% of the time. I want something dependable and simple.
Anyway ....Im at work and I just heard theres leftovers from a pot luck lunch in the department down the hall...
Ill add more later
Posted by: Stumppuller1
Has anyone noticed that most mags give wins to machines that are faster and handle better at high speeds. It has nothing to do with work ability or durability, but just plain power and how light the machine is.
Last year the Polaris 800 got most of the wins, well this year their writing the same stuff for the new winner which seems to be the Bomb 650/800 in most cases. I've compared some mags and they contradict themselves from year to year, its frustrating as someone who is looking to buy reads them and gets an idea but it can be totally off.
I would like to see a long term utility/work/mud/water/pulling shootout done and see what machine's could work the best without problems instead of racing shootouts
I have seen and recorded a pull contest for example where a Poaris 800 out pulled everything by 20 feet, and then I went to another one and the Bomb only lost by a couple feet, so it does depend on track conditions that's forsure. But the Polaris 800 seems to be able to get traction to the ground better, and all the machines were weighted down to weigh the same.
I don't own a 800, I have a Bomb traxter that can work with the best of them but am looking at all the big bores right now and I'm getting a bit frustrated reading what seems to be alot of BS. The guys testing them are Sport bike riders not Utility guys so of course speed is the big concern.
Posted by: Stumppuller1
I myself don't have big tires on my traxter XT as it rides rough enough, so I needed a radial to keep the ride okay. But I have worked it hard in mud, water, snow, and pulling trailers full of items, last year went opening for trout and pulled about 12-1500lbs of weight, 14 ft boat, motor, camping gear for 4, gas, booze, food and of course the trailer, pulled it about 30 miles 1 way on fire roads up and down steep hills and straight up into the mountain where only ATV's could go into a lake. So work, that was probably the hardest this machine has worked, also pulled some logs out of a gully for the father, dragging them up the hill, never had 1 issue with this machine. I have roughly 5000 miles on it and have not even changed the break pads yet, probably getting close though.
I wonder how the up and coming big bores will do with this kind of work in the long haul. I have had this machine since 03. Maybe others can give some insight onto real Utility.
Posted by: FastestBlaster
yeah i agree 100%
Posted by: FastestBlaster
most of the mags prolly get paid by the companys to put what the companys want the people or buyers like us to hear about theyre machines ..The companys that pay more get more good stuff put in their bout their machine and not that much bad stuff about it..thats what ive heard before by many people and im starting to believe it.
Posted by: LawdogB2
Read the previous page of posts. There are plenty of ideas listed. No, we don't want wimps testing the machines. We just would like to see practical, applicable testing done. You are right, there are some of us that like to go fast on these machines. However, it seems that alot of us actually do more work than recreate with them. It seems to me that you lose the perspective of a major group of the readership in your evaluations. We are offering constructive criticism and ideas on how to adjust the problem, not attacking you and your peers.
Posted by: hoepig
I agree that the shootouts and write ups aren,t as honest as they should be. What it comes down to is the mags not wanting to offend the customer, companies advertising in their mags. We are customers too and want the dirt on these machines before going out and spending thousands ( in my case 9000) on an atv. I bought an outy 800 Because it got awsome write ups. I agree it handles and plays like no other. I also work an atv as much as play on one. They even put out an infomertial on what a good all around machine it is. The exhaust gets soo hot that it melted the fender and seat under normal riding conditions. I have recently found out that BRP redesigened a heat shield to fix this problem. I have melted my second seat. The factory told me that I was riding it to slow. (Remember it is supposed to be a sport/ute). I told them that I seen an add in an atv mag with an outy 800 with a plow blade and how much work this bike can do. I guess you have to plow your drive at 40 mph plus even know there is a warning on the plow blade not to exceed 10mph. Lots of speedometer problems also. You won't read none of this in the mags. A company doesn't redesign a heat shield unless there are several bikes with this problem. My bike also has sat in the shop 3 months out of the 7 I have owned it and it still is not fixed right. Soo much for the 3 year warrenty. It would be nice if the mags would print some of the problems. For the money spent I have gotten the major run around. If some of the problems were printed then may be the factories would stand behind their products instead of trying to sweep the problems under the rug.
Posted by: BillyMack
Amen Brother!!!!! I like my Vinny's power/handling and all, but it is NO racing machine. Why does everybody want the BIGGEST, FASTEST quad? A 4x4 machine just ISN'T made for "racing". I guarantee most of the people buying those "insane bore" quads can't ride them hard unless it's in a straight line drag---which requires nearly 0 skill whatsoever!!! I mean, who can't nail the throttle and hold it there from a dead stop? Try tossing a nearly 800 lb Sportsman around a tight corner. They just aren't made for it!!! And YES I agree that most mags DO contradict themselves.
Posted by: squeege
2 450 kodiaks, honda forman 500, artic cat 400 all tried getting up a steep bank after dropping into a narrow creek...Neither 450 would make it over the crest due to the short wheelbase and less ground clearance......all quads have there downfall, but I didn't try my kodiak with the new 26" tires yet.....yet to come
Posted by: ToughGUY2169
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Originally posted by: weez440
if they wanna test reliability you won't be beating a machine by just trail riding even fastpace trail riding lets put some weight to these utilities and go play in some hardcore mud. put 29.5 in tires on all of them and break them let us know what is the best utility not the best sport/utility out there. i say get rid of the sport riders who test them and go with guys like most of us that actually use out utilities to the best of their abilities and beyond.
amen
Posted by: v2rider
I choose my AC! I like the Outty, and i admit it over powers me by a mile, but i bet in the mud, or on the rocks, or carrying equipment(speedrack) I can match, and even beat it alot of the time.
Posted by: v2rider
So what your saying is bomb is better in every department than the other atv's? Bomb is a great quad, but besides power, isnt any better in anything else than the other quads, in my opinion. Or mabey thats not what your saying, and im just being bias. lol
Posted by: Brute23
They could never do a durability test because there are too many hidden variables. They "try" to stick to the more factual info like 0-60 times and such, but we all know how those turn out too. Read the magazines but talk to the actual riders and decide for yourself what is true or not true.
Posted by: POLARISEATER
Stay away from polaris. The only reason it pulls so good is it weighs so dang much. The polaris's I've owned and been around are tool time nightmares. How ever they do ride smooth if you have a bad back or something like that. I now own a 2005 KAWI 700 Prairie and love it. I forgot how much better the str. axle handles than the IRS. Also it has a very low center of gravity. I also only gave 6K for it brand new. On the trails a 800 is not going to be able to go any faster. But in drag race the 800's are a little faster. It pulls good and go's good. But if u want the biggest and badest. I would go with the 800 Bomb.. Oh if you want to out pull the 800 polaris with a 800 bomb just put about 140lbs. on the racks to make the bomb as heavy as the polaris and I would bet the farm it would out pull it. I have not heard anything bad about the bomb yet. Good luck!
