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Posted by: Sep1
Nutsy,
When I had an 05 Polaris 700 Sportsman, I experienced the woes of just rear wheel braking desending steep hills. The bike was great otherwise, however Polaris is a perfect candidate for seperate brakes since only the rear wheels are effected by the EBS system. I bought a split breaking system from HPD and installed it on my Sportsman. This system made all the difference in the world and totaly cured all braking issues. When desending steep inclines with the split system, you let the EBS work the rears and you control the front. Another advantage of having split brakes on a Polaris is that it frees up your left hand to take a swig of "soda" while on the trail without stopping. I now have a Brute 750 and love that the brakes are split from the factory, in my opinion seperate front and rears brakes are the way to go.
Posted by: Sep1
I guess it's whatever you prefer. Most people coming off a sport bike like split brakes but have been know to get used to single lever. It's funny not to long ago Polaris was the only manufacturer to incorporate single lever brakes, and every single mag would criticize them up and down. Now that other manufactures are using them it's safer and more efficient braking system. Still I prefer controlling front and rear separately and as stated in an earlier reply converted my sportsman to do this. I felt that I had a lot more control and stopping power with the split system. This is because not only do you have the separate front and back breaks but also since they are split it is a heck of a lot easier to pull in the brake levers. The rear foot brake on the Polaris's is at best an emergency brake. I would rather toss of some gear with a rope attached and hoped that it snagged a tree root or something rather than relying on it to stop me. If any one is interested in converting your single to a split contact HPD. Their kits are designed for the Scramblers/Sports but will work on the other Polaris models with no problems.
Posted by: outlawd
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The Polaris was a nightmare going down hills but I don't know if that was the brakes, the 4x4 system, the engine braking or what. Guess I won't know about the Bomber until I get some seat time.
The root cause is their 4x4 system. Two brake levers won't cure the Polaris downhill nightmare problem, because brakes aren't the (unless you nail the foot brake on a downhill then you will start a skid) usual cause of the rear wheels breaking loose and skidding on a downhill. Their 4x4 system is great for going uphill, but I agree, downhill (I've owned three Sportsmans) is a nightmare.
Posted by: outlawd
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Originally posted by: James1701
I thought the foot brake on Polaris was only suposed to be an emergency brake. Thats why it is such a pain to use. As far as being a nightmare coming down hill, I dont believe so. It just takes a lot of getting used too. I ride down several hills that a couple people with Big Bears and Vinson just end up walking theirs down. Granted some of that was rider skill but it was still funny to see.
I'm curious how do you go down steep hills (on the Polaris) James? In low or high, and do you use a lot of brake on steep loose hills? What have you found works best?
Posted by: outlawd
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Originally posted by: James1701
Back to the Polaris, its just not a natural feeling to give it gas when going down a knarly hill,, but once you get over it, put it in low and go, its smooth sailing. You just have to develope a feel for how much gas to give it. It takes some practice.
Ok, I gotcha. Yes people have trouble with giving it gas and not giving into the urge of letting off the gas. When you let off the gas thats when the EBS kicks in and locks up the rear tires in my experience.
I stil have pucker factor every time I go down a steep hill.
Posted by: Kawi650
ok, now there are benifits of both but it really comes down to two points. Point one is be aware of the type of brakes that are on the machine. Point two is that you use them properly for the machine you are driving. I mean on my KVF700 there is engine brake that will slow me down by the back 2 tires in 2wd and all four/three when i'm in 4wd/diffi lock engaged. The effectiveness of the engine braking is great to the point I really don't use brakes at all and if I do I use my front brakes only for 90% of the time. saying that I know my back brakes work well and will not freeze in the winter where my front ones can when I run thru water and fast trails. Saying that not all atvs have proper winter brakes and that should be a concern if you do alot of sub below atving... Now brakes are important and should be concerned however it's more important to maintain them. The only issue I have with the one brake system is if it fails, which it did on me in the past you have to do some really uncomfortable dancing motions to avoid hazards. In my case we just redid the brakes on my brothers 99 scrambler 400 and he lost his brakes coming on to a washout... so he had to gun it and jump it... he was luckly. I personnally like two levers and that is mainly because that's what I'm used too. I don't use my rear brake handlebar brake at all... I use my front and my foot brake for the rear. The proper combo is 60 front 40 rear, I don't know how this is accomplished on one lever. My engine brake does about 40 % of my brakes so it works.
Posted by: Kawi650
I drive a lot in the winter I have the tracks etc... I lub my cables in transmision fuild and they have never frozen on me. The only problem I have is snow build up on the floor boards where I can not get my foot on the brake lever and at that point I use my hand brake until I stop to clean it off the snow spray. My front brakes pads are subject to freezing yes however with 4x4 on the back brakes will lock the front drive shaft not the brakes. You can pump and apply a little friction to thaw out the brakes while moving and I find it't best if you are in the water to apply the brakes lighly even before you come out and keep them on a little while. Any winter atv rider should be fully aware of freezing elements on their machine. I also each time I stop clean my front arms out of snow and ice build up. With the tracks you don't really use alot of brakes you let go of the throttle and the machine will almost stop right there by it's self. I think the mutli disc in the rear axle is the answer to winter brakes I swear by them.
Posted by: powerstroke01
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Originally posted by: Bobmack
I have a single brake lever and I like it then I want to stop I want to stop not just slide the back tires. to each his own
Maybe someone should sent Ford, Chevy and other car and truck Company an e-mail to come out with a two pedal system.
I agree I LOVE the single lever..
I Absolutly hate having dual brakes.
It was hard going from the balance of my outlander to the unbalanced braking of my Z400..
Do you guys see rock crawlers with dual braking systems? Didnt think so...
If im only allowed to use my front brakes to keep from flipping over backwards on a hill and i start to slide backwards because i cant reach my rear brake petal causing my bike to eventually flip someones gonna be pissed.
Posted by: powerstroke01
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Originally posted by: CBF2
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Originally posted by: powerstroke01
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Originally posted by: Bobmack
I have a single brake lever and I like it then I want to stop I want to stop not just slide the back tires. to each his own
Maybe someone should sent Ford, Chevy and other car and truck Company an e-mail to come out with a two pedal system.
I agree I LOVE the single lever..
I Absolutly hate having dual brakes.
It was hard going from the balance of my outlander to the unbalanced braking of my Z400..
Do you guys see rock crawlers with dual braking systems? Didnt think so...
If im only allowed to use my front brakes to keep from flipping over backwards on a hill and i start to slide backwards because i cant reach my rear brake petal causing my bike to eventually flip someones gonna be pissed.
The only thing unbalanced is your inputs to the brakes, now if I give a single lever system an input and it gives x% to the front and x% to the rear no matter what, with no adjustment, THAT is unbalanced.
I use my Z400 for the same trails that i used my Outlander on. Alot of times i cant have my foot near the rear brake. How does that do me any good?
Still, i think i single lever is better.... Dont get the wrong idea, im not a "novice" rider i can ride anywhere.
Posted by: Scooter86
I agree that the manufacturers with stock single lever systems should at least sell a kit to convert to a seperated braking system. There really is no excuse, being able to only use front or rears seperately is much safer once big hills get involved.
Posted by: Scooter86
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Originally posted by: Dirtydude
Thing is dual brakes are fine for 90% or even 99% of most riding....it's that 1% that's a killer
Do you mean "single lever" for "dual brakes?" Because I would say that the single lever works fine for 90%+ of all riding, but dual works great for ALL riding.
Posted by: Scooter86
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Originally posted by: Bobmack
I have a single brake lever and I like it then I want to stop I want to stop not just slide the back tires. to each his own
Maybe someone should sent Ford, Chevy and other car and truck Company an e-mail to come out with a two pedal system.
First, cars and trucks are a totally different animal. They are far larger, heavier, and more stable. They also HAVE to be usable by a much larger cross section of society. Use of a steering wheel doesn't lend itself as well to hand braking, although there are vehicles designed for people with certain disabilities that allows such. Since you are much more isolated from the wheels in a car, you would have a harder time telling when you are approaching the point of lockup also. The vast majority of streetbikes and anything with handlebars really, has split brakes. Why? More control for the user. These are vehicles that are lighter and less stable, making it a benefit for the user to be able to modulate brake bias. On these single lever quads, you are stuck with one bias that the manufacturer has designed in to work for all situations. With a dual system, I can choose to not use rear brakes when sliding backwards down a hill, but I can also modulate just how much stopping power is put to whatever axle also, depending on the situation. I do find it funny that so many will defend Polaris for making an "Easy to use" system on one thread, but on this one we have multiple riders attesting to it causing some undo pucker factor, unless you go against basic instinct(which a new rider is not likely to do)
Posted by: Bobmack
I have a single brake lever and I like it then I want to stop I want to stop not just slide the back tires. to each his own
Maybe someone should sent Ford, Chevy and other car and truck Company an e-mail to come out with a two pedal system.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
The single brake is one of the things that gives me serious reservations about the outlander 800. I've only had ATVs and bikes with two brakes. I liked the versatility especially when on steep hills. I'm really not sure how I would get along with one brake lever. I know I hated it on the Polaris I rode. The Polaris was a nightmare going down hills but I don't know if that was the brakes, the 4x4 system, the engine braking or what. Guess I won't know about the Bomber until I get some seat time.
Posted by: hondabuster
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Originally posted by: CBF2
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Originally posted by: oldturtle
I sure agree with this. After riding dirt bikes and sport quads for many years I just do not have any interest in learning any new tricks.
DITTO!
What he said
Posted by: oldturtle
I sure agree with this. After riding dirt bikes and sport quads for many years I just do not have any interest in learning any new tricks.
Posted by: Nutsy
That reminds me of my ride yesterday at the inlaws, my bro-in law and myself were descending a steep hill full of leaves, mud, some rocks and such. He went first and his rearend was outta control he bashed into a couple of sapplings on the way down. My way down was much smoother. He has a 2005 polaris 700 sportsman, does that thing only have rear wheel engine braking? If so, I wonder if that was the main contributor to the loss of control.
Posted by: Dirtydude
count me in on the 2 lever system!
Single lever systems were designed for novice riders (ie: my wife) so they can get on a quad and drive it around on groomed county roads with very little hassle. They don't need to train their brains on how to operate a duel lever system properly. "just squeeze this thingie here and it'll stop" weeeee!!
It is possible however for a beginner to learn to use 2 brakes quite easily, it comes natural after ahwile.. The down side is that it's harder to use duel brakes as a marketing tool.
Posted by: Dirtydude
Thing is dual brakes are fine for 90% or even 99% of most riding....it's that 1% that's a killer
Posted by: Dirtydude
whoops ya
my bad
single lever blows, dual brakes FTW!
Posted by: Dirtydude
You ride a sport quad with your feet off the pegs?
wtf?
Am I the only one scratching my head here?
If your like 3 foot tall maybe I could see it, but then you could like raise your pegs or something
I call bullsh!t, Your just baiting or your a timid rider and "ride" with your feet off the pegs cause your pushing it!
Posted by: JimJa
I'm posting this in the hopes factory types check this site from time to time.
Some of us like all the brakes to work with one lever, and some want a two lever arrangement. Those in favor of the two lever system are very vocal in their dislike of the single lever system.
When these machines are built it certainly would be easy to engineer a brake distribution block that, with the addition of the second lever and a brake line, would allow for a two lever brake system. The second lever and line could be bought from the dealer as a kit, installed, the brakes bled, and you've got a two lever brake system. From a engineering and mfgr'ing standpoint this would be easy and inexpensive.
I guess if factory types check this site as we hope they do, your responses might sway their thinking.
Just a thought.
Posted by: JimJa
Nutsy, I'm storing a Polaris 800 EFI in my garage over winter. It's not mine but I've got quite a bit of time on it as well as a 500 Sportsman. I own an AC 650V2 and will pick up a BRP 800 in June. I am fine with the single brake lever system on the machines I have, but agree with Sep1 that the Polaris is a perfect candidate for a twin lever system.
The problems you witnessed on your friend's Polaris are normal - for a Polaris. Their front drive will not engage unless the rears slip. You can somewhat overcome this by blipping the throttle on the way down the hill or briefly locking the rear brake, both of which go against normal driving. And yes, trailing throttle only works on the rear axle. On a hill decent, even with the AWD engaged, you must use BOTH the hand lever AND the foot brake for four wheel braking. The first time someone drives a Polaris down a hill they will invariably comment they are sure something is wrong. It clunks like crazy like something is about break or fall off. This is because the rear wheels slip, he front axle is engaged, the rear wheels then no longer slip, the AWD disengages, and the process repeats - all the way down the hill. It's all-normal and is the way their system is designed to operate. I don't like it, and don't like it enough I consider it to be a delimiter for a Polaris purchase.
I believe mfgr's have a single brake lever system because most machines have a direct and positive link between front and rear axles while in 4x4. So, when you have 4x4 engaged, it doesn't matter if you have a single or dual lever brake system or use the foot brake, in effect each does the same thing - "brakes" all four wheels. With a system like Polaris' AWD, a twin lever would work fine.
I like a single lever system. It works fine for the riding I do, but I also like choice, and if people want a two lever system and it can be added easily...well, why not. It's all about selling your product and meeting customer requirements, right?
Posted by: WindmillAtWork
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My buddy just rolled his bomb 800 backward down a hill because of the brakes. He got in trouble and hit the brakes a little and it came up on him. Our other friend made it just fine on his 500 with dual lever brakes. Luckily, it wasn't a major hill and he did very little damage; if any, but i really don't like the brakes being tied together at all, this is why.
That is the exactly the reason why everyone should have two braking levers. The only way this wouldn't apply is if your in 4X4 mode....But by being able to apply only the front brakes when stoped on a hill going up you can avoid a rollover. If you only have back or all brakes at the same time you risk the front end poping up and rolling over backwards...Not very fun. I think the people who like single lever brakes have never experianced big hills or don't know how easy two levers really are. Sometimes I want my back to do a slide and use the rears only...sometimes I want to stop quicker and use the front only or with different presseures on each lever.....Its very fun and easy..but by only having single lever except in 4X4 mode you are losing fun and safety of riding in 4X2 mode with dual levers.
I won't by a single lever machine and some newer great machines lose my vote as a possible purchase because of this safety and fun issue.
Posted by: propnut
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now if I give a single lever system an input and it gives x% to the front and x% to the rear no matter what, with no adjustment, THAT is unbalanced
nail on the head there, as the weight is transfered your brake bias should be adjusted, these guys defending single lever by disabling the EBS to manage fixed bias is ridiculous.
it's dummying down the sport
Posted by: propnut
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Now that other manufactures are using them it's safer and more efficient braking system
just curious, who besides the x-snowmobile-only mfgs use the single lever (Polaris, Bombardier, and Cat that is)
where have you seen someone actually print that single lever is safer and more efficient for anyone other than a novice on easy trails in a panic condition?
Posted by: propnut
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That is the exactly the reason why everyone should have two braking levers. The only way this wouldn't apply is if your in 4X4 mode
but it does, try it. it's obvious to me as I only have 3wd
Posted by: CBF2
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Originally posted by: oldturtle
I sure agree with this. After riding dirt bikes and sport quads for many years I just do not have any interest in learning any new tricks.
DITTO!
Posted by: CBF2
If you notice it is the sled manufactures with this retarded single brake thing since that is what sleds have (can oly stop the track) so they assume that is the best for ATVs too. They claim it is better because it dumbs down the riding process. All the jap stuff is dual lever dual brake as it should be. Why should my left hand control the clutch on everything else I have then I have to retune my instincs to do ALL my BRAKING with my clutch hand? Dumb. If the left hand brake was not also the parking brake I would just take the whole thing off on my KQ.
I will add this to the mix, Polaris adds a crappy foot brake to some of their models that I have never had work. The pedal is about 3 inches above your foot then it takes another 7 inches of downward travel to activate the brake. Even my KQ (or any other big bore's )foot brake is not good in my mind. There is just no feel with the cable actuated inboard brake. My father's Grizz's hydro inboard brake tanks too. I like the brakes on the final drive so you can feel what is going on. With the inboard brakes you are either locked up or doing nothing and at all....and you can't even tell which it is! Rant off. If only I could make my own quad
Posted by: CBF2
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Originally posted by: Bobmack
I have a single brake lever and I like it then I want to stop I want to stop not just slide the back tires. to each his own
Maybe someone should sent Ford, Chevy and other car and truck Company an e-mail to come out with a two pedal system.
Why stop at a two pedal system, put on some shutes--the space shuttle uses them right? If one means of braking works in one area then it must work just as good in others. If you only slide your back tires on a two lever system sign up for a riding class.
Posted by: CBF2
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Originally posted by: powerstroke01
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Originally posted by: Bobmack
I have a single brake lever and I like it then I want to stop I want to stop not just slide the back tires. to each his own
Maybe someone should sent Ford, Chevy and other car and truck Company an e-mail to come out with a two pedal system.
I agree I LOVE the single lever..
I Absolutly hate having dual brakes.
It was hard going from the balance of my outlander to the unbalanced braking of my Z400..
Do you guys see rock crawlers with dual braking systems? Didnt think so...
If im only allowed to use my front brakes to keep from flipping over backwards on a hill and i start to slide backwards because i cant reach my rear brake petal causing my bike to eventually flip someones gonna be pissed.
The only thing unbalanced is your inputs to the brakes, now if I give a single lever system an input and it gives x% to the front and x% to the rear no matter what, with no adjustment, THAT is unbalanced.
Posted by: CBF2
The cables on your KVF rear brake are far more suseptable to freezing up if wet & cold than your disc fronts. I have always needed more rear brake than engine braking alone.
Posted by: James1701
I thought the foot brake on Polaris was only suposed to be an emergency brake. Thats why it is such a pain to use. As far as being a nightmare coming down hill, I dont believe so. It just takes a lot of getting used too. I ride down several hills that a couple people with Big Bears and Vinson just end up walking theirs down. Granted some of that was rider skill but it was still funny to see.
Posted by: James1701
It depends on how steep it is. If its real steep, I put it in low and give it gas all the way. This keeps the tires from skipping. I am talking maybe 500 rpms. It does not take much. Now when it comes to traversing a hill with slick wet leaves or wet grass, it does not matter what machine you are on. Even my brother inlaws Vinson will chatter going down that. Back to the Polaris, its just not a natural feeling to give it gas when going down a knarly hill,, but once you get over it, put it in low and go, its smooth sailing. You just have to develope a feel for how much gas to give it. It takes some practice.
Posted by: trvman
it's all how a rider rides to what one is best, just like an auto vs manual trans. for me it is one lever and an auto trans, less to think about when you are enjoying the view.
Posted by: Augie
Most of the quads that I have ridden in the past were single lever, but the few that I rode that had the dual lever definately had their advantages.
Posted by: oper2nyst
have eiger manual [2 levers] and 400 tbx [single ], no probs with either
Posted by: Brute23
Its the same old stuff. Some people want to do the least amount of thinking possible when driving. I hear it all the time about the Kawi Locker. Some people's minds just can't handle multiple levers. For that reason they will alwyas be trying to fit the triagle in the square hole and will never be able to have a threesome.
I like to be incontroll of everything. With the one brake lever there is no power sliding, power braking, and all that other good stuff. I would never by a bike with one brake lever.
Posted by: daduhdummy
My buddy just rolled his bomb 800 backward down a hill because of the brakes. He got in trouble and hit the brakes a little and it came up on him. Our other friend made it just fine on his 500 with dual lever brakes. Luckily, it wasn't a major hill and he did very little damage; if any, but i really don't like the brakes being tied together at all, this is why.
