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Posted by: A400L
Just to clarify a few things that have been stated in here...
There is a full race chassis (chromolly frame, dual A-arms, fully adjustable shocks, Roll Design swingarm, ect.) available from HPD. But the damn thing cost $15K w/o the motor!! Goto www.fatalberts.com to see the machine Polaris failed to make.
I've gotten into this debate with many others before about some Polaris'(actually a very few) being faster than a Banshee. It can be done with the Polaris. Of course it takes a lot of tuning, and a deep pocket book. My 400 will be set up for 300' sand drags here shortly (just waiting on the alcohol carb from CT) and would bet that it will smoke it's share of Banshee's, as it does now. A freind of mine running the same set up on a '98 400, is making 5.4's at the races. We both have a prototype pipe on order from HPD that just might get us into the 4's, with some tweaking!
Truth be told now, and nicely done Banshee will get us on top, after about 500', but it still takes a lot more than pipes, porting and carbs! For those of you who are mathmatically challenged, it's 1 2/3 football fields, most drag races are half of that so what difference does it make at that point, you've already lost?
Granted there are just a handfull of us around and most people are not educated enough, or are just plain ignorant, to realize with the right set up any 2-stroke can be made to be a screamer. Which one you choose to build is yours.
So the next time you see a Polaris line up with you at the dunes, don't assume anything, it just might be me.
Posted by: A400L
Gabe, I see your down in Branson. You ought to head up to Flatriver some time. Granted it's nothing compared to Little Sahara, but it's closer.
I'll be more than happy to let you race my 400 against a few Banshees.
Posted by: A400L
Yes, St. Joe State Park is AKA Flatriver. I like it better than Finger Lakes.
Although Finger Lakes has a MX track (which seems to get rutted out really quick), it's mostly wooded trails.
St. Joe is mostly sand flats, smoe jumps and also has nice trails.
Riding fees for both are the same, $2.- per day.
I know what you mean about Deepwater!
Posted by: A400L
I would drive 4HRs to St. Joe if you were going to stay the night. The camping fees are very reasonable, and the grounds are well maintained.
Both St. Joe and Finger Lkaes are equal driving distance for me. I only go to Finger Lakes like 1X a year (even thats only if someone else drives), and St. Joe about 2X a month. Knowing that you have been to Little Sahara you would probably be dissapointed at what Finger Lakes has to offer. St. Joe is not full of dunes either, but it would suit your type of riding from what I've seen on your page.
Posted by: Mike Chero
86atc250r,
I think you've missed the point here. I can buy a 2000 Scrambler 2x4 400 for less than $4700. If I buy the Banshee, I pay the list price of $5900 (yes I've priced them at several dealers). For less than $1200 I can easily make the Scrambler faster. An example is:
Pipe and clutch kit - $350
38mm TMX or 39mm PWK carb - $300
Head mods and porting - $300
Boyessen or Delta Reed valves - $150
For a total outlay of $1100 ($5800), you can put together a machine that will easily beat even piped Banshees, let alone a stock one. Mind you, you are also talking about a machine that is easily 100 lbs heavier too. And that isn't all of the mods for it either. Granted I can't find a chrome plated clutch cover for it as I could for a Banshee, but I don't think a shiny clutch cover will make it that much faster anyway.
You also must remember that when you modify a Banshee you are dealing in the "LAW OF TWOS" In other words, two pipes, two carbs, two port/head mods and two reeds. That is going to cost a lot more than the above mentioned $1100.
Posted by: Mike Chero
Beast450,
There is one thing you must remember, The Banshee will ALWAYS be the benchmark of duning as the 250R will be for MX and XC.
I agree that Polaris SHOULD come out with a radical new machine, but it ain't gonna happen. Not in this life time. They are quite happy making big, heavy, slow utility machines.
It's a sad fact of life that the company WAS once an innovator. Now they are just bringing out the same crap year after year. Granted there have been a few improvements, but not the ones the PUBLIC wants. Gee just what we all wanted, a Polaris you have to shift (if I wanted to shift, I'd have bought a Honda), or a diesel quad or an underpowered 325 motor in an overweight 500 frame. Wow, that's really doing your research (NOT)!
As far as their "sport quads", it sure would be nice to have a lighter frame to go with the longer travel suspension. The concentric drive wouldn't have been a bad idea, if they would have put it in a twin a-arm frame. Oh well, enough of this. Don't get me wrong, I like MY Polaris machines! it's just that it costs me too much to get them where I want them to be. If Polaris isn't going to come out with anything that remotely interests me, then to hell with them! My next ride just might be something from Japan. Sorry Polaris, you lose!
Posted by: Mike Chero
Andrew,
Yeah, it's about an hour drive from my house. I guess I might be in the market for one of those too, if the ever start producing them.
Posted by: Mike Chero
86atc250r,
The sad fact is that even with the present machines that Japan offers, I'd still have to do some work on them. This might change in the near future with the new models from Cannondale and Yamaha. The thing I want first and foremost is a full length skid plate on the machine. Polaris does have the advantage here.
Secondly I want some decent sized tires on it. 18" - 20" tires may be all the rage on MX/TT tracks and smooth dirt ovals, but they have little use in the real world of trails.
Two stroke or four? Well, it's a fact that I hate adjusting valves (been doing it since I was 12), but it is also a fact that they just aren't coming out with any more two strokes. So the motor question is still up in the air. The Cannondale motor has promise, no cam chain to adjust or go out of adjustment. Still if you get bored with the power of a four stroke, expect to spend some big bucks to make it more exciting.
I'm not above shifting, I learned riding on manual clutch motorcycles, but still prefer the CVT transmission, even with all of it's faults.
A large gas tank is mandatory, I hate running out of gas. I like the four gallon gas tank on the new Cannondale.
In short the perfect ATV has yet to be made for me. The Cannondale comes the closest, but still has it's shortcomings.
Posted by: 01ds650
Mike & Jerry excellent posts:)
Let me say in the sand the Banshee almost has no equal. And the soft sand makes a heavy Polaris seem even heavier. But on dirt I've raced a couple of Banshees & I "only" lose by about 3 quad lengths. All I had done at that time was the $325 RCR kit. For the first 50ft I even had them, but the Banshee top end is tough to beat. I was happy though, the Banshee guys were very impressed with my overweight 4x4 :) Would I trade my Scrambler for my friends 2 modded Banshees? Hell no! I like reverse, the fact that mine runs without always tinkering with it & I like being the spoiler. It's like being the guy with a 302V-8 in a Pinto. If you beat him in your Camaro, you still lose because you beat a Pinto, but if he beats you, then you just lost to a Pinto. For a Polaris rider racing a Banshee is a win/win situation. If you lose you are suppossed too (esp. in my case it being 4WD), but if you win, you WIN!
As much as some guys would like to believe it, Banshees are far from unbeatable.
c-ya,
Posted by: 01ds650
But Mike, Isn't the Cannondale made in your home state of PA ?
Posted by: 01ds650
You thought the 400EX was quick off the line? I think it's fast on the top end. It seems to pull hard in 4th & 5th. When my brother & I would race his 400EX against my Scrambler 400 I think the only reason I beat him was my holeshot was so much better he couldn't overcome it in a drag race. Now if we went from a roll in say his 3rd gear it was dead even.
Posted by: SaMs0nOLD
Top speed isn't what you should be looking at. Its how fast it accelerates to that speed. Whats the point of having a machine that goes 70 mph, but takes 15 minutes to get there. :)
87 Banshee
99 Banshee
Posted by: SandmanBlue
You'll probably hear from every Polaris owner that the 400 will smoke a Banshee no matter what. Keep in mind that there has been several reported cases of brainwashing videos sent out with each polaris sold. If you watch the video, then your view of reality becomes distorted and the 400 sport is the fastest thing on earth.
Meanwhile... back on planet earth, the 400 ponderous weight problem keeps the machine from competing with the Banshees. Go to the sand dunes and watch. Barely a Polaris in sight, and if they are bold enough to race the Banshees up ANY of the hills... well, lets just say that the Banshees are not in jeopardy of losing their long standing king of the sand status.
SandmanBlue - Still living on Earth... without the blinking text...
Posted by: 86atc250r
Heck though, on that same note, anything can be made to outrun anything given enough dollars.
I'm sure given the time and money a person could have a nitromethane burning, supercharged, lightened, "works" LT80 that would outrun Banshee's and 400L's in a straight drag, but what's the point?
Posted by: 86atc250r
That'd be pretty cool... I wouldn't mind doing a little Banshee spankin' on a Polaris. My EX is good for that on the track, but not so good in the straight drag, esp in sand.
Flat river... Is that St. Joe? We were thinking about running over there sometime this year as well as Finger Lakes. We also run up to Deepwater a few times a year (preferably when the water is low). Always looking for somewhere cool to ride....
Posted by: 86atc250r
Is there enough riding there to warrant a trip for me and a couple of dirtbike buddies to make a trip from Branson? It'll probably be at least 4 hours each way for us....
Posted by: 86atc250r
Wow Mike, this is quite a turnaround for you....
You are beginning to see the light! ;) Just kidding...
Anyway, I have heard that Cannondale has shipped 4 MX400 bikes to the magazines for review, and is starting shipment to dealers (one dealer has announce that they will be racing one on May 27th). Then we can see how the MX400 does and gauge how reliable/good the FX400 will be. Hopefully this fall!
Posted by: YamahaRules
BANSHEE!!! or even that new Yamaha Quad 650cc
Posted by: Lurch77
Yes, the Polaris 400 engine is a very quick engine, with lots or potential. But as others have stated. The machine is to heavy to show it. Some day maybe someone will offer a lighter frame for the 400. Or maybe Polaris will just offer a lighter frame off the showroom floor. (Yeah, i am just dreaming now.)
Posted by: 99fasterblasters
Ha, ha, ha,ha,ha, Polaris what.....
Posted by: KevinM
I agree Mike. I love my Scrambler, but if Bombardier would put the Traxter AWD on a DS650 I'd be selling the Polaris real quick. Those 650's are huge, but they still weigh 80lbs less than the Scramblers and make 10+ more hp. I know the AWD components on a Scrambler don't weigh 80 lbs.
Posted by: beast450
JUST THINK GUYS IF POLARIS WOULD SHED SOME OF THAT WEIGHT, HARNESS MORE OF THE ENGINES POWER AND TWEAK THE HANDLING. HELLO !! YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE HAVEING THIS CONVERSATION OR AT LEAST IT PROBABLY WOULD BE BACKWARDS. WISH ALL MANUFACTURERS HAD 500CC 4X4 SPORT MACHINE.
Posted by: MxSportRydr
i agree! even though stock the 400 is only about 5mph slower than a stock banshe or 400ex it could be a lot faster if they would shed its weight and size.
Posted by: Xplor
I have read so many posts on all these fast Banshees,400ex's,DS650 and 250R's... How does a Scrambler400 stand up to all these machines in drag races and performance? Stock vs. modified? I know my Scram400 isn't as "high-performance" as all those Banshee sand machines but how does it compare to a 400ex and Blasters and such???
Just curious...
Posted by: Xplor
Hey sandman... Take the banshee out of it's sandy domaine and stick it in the woods and trails and mud... That's the comparison I was looking for. I do not want a 1/100th of a second precision...just a bit of comparison... Because all the talk about the Banshees and 400ex's makes the Scram400 sound slow in comparison!
Posted by: Xplor
For the time being I will stick to the heavier ride. Because of the weight I feel it handles good for the type of riding I do. If I wanted a super-sport, non 4x4 quad I would have gotten the 400ex, but did not want to shift! Plus the 6 people I ride with would hate me after a day of riding. No offense to older people in here...but I ride with the wife and in-laws and they go at a slower pace. I am always zipping around them and hitting every possible bump and mud hole! In the future if I ever ride with a "quicker" crowd then I will add a 400ex to my collection. But for now I have the best of both worlds. Very fast, reliable, 4x4, and comfortable for puttering around with the family! It may not be the fastest and sportiest for Glamis but up here I am the fastest guy on the block!!
:)
Posted by: stevescrambler
I don't know how a 400 scrambler would do against a 400ex. What I do know is I have a new 500 scrambler 4x4 with a clutch kit and I drag raced my buddy the other day on his 400ex and he beat me by a couple quad lengths. The 400ex is pretty quick off the line. When we rode trails he bottomed out alot. Also he says my suspension is better and I do agree. I do like the advantage of having four wheel drive. I bought the scrambler because I wanted a sport quad without giving up four wheel drive. That 400ex is a fun quad to ride too.
Posted by: wolv09
I own a banshee that I do nothing but mud trail and woods ride yeah I had to set it up to do that but it is possible and will still whip a scrambler to death dont insult us banshee owners!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: KaiserSosei
Hey xplor, go back and look at your original post. You wanted to know how the 400 scrambler would stand up to all the machines listed in a drag- you stated nothing concerning the woods, mud, and trails. What happened, didn't here what you wanted to here or you had a brain fart and totally forgot your original topic. Sounds like water boy material.
Posted by: jad
How far is Alton,Il. from the Chicago area? I would like to come down a check out those trails down there. Jeff.
2000 Scrambler 400
