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Posted by: reconranger
Like you said, there are posts by the utility crowd that say the sport bikes are tearing everything up and ruining the trails. Just depends on your point of view.
Where I live, it's those darn dirt bikes that are ruining everything. They make a groove up a hillclimb, and then when it rains (only rains in winter here), it causes a huge rain rut that leaves the hill unrideable for everyone. Thing is, those dirt bikes have been out there since the 60's (I was one of them), and we on ATV's are just the new kids on the block. I suppose there is a post somewhere in a dirt bike forum saying ATV's are ruining it for the dirt bikes.
I don't really get the industry trend in utilities, toward huge and heavy big bores, rather than lightness and agility. Plus, these machines seem to be very popular with the "senior citizen" crowd (got to have a huge big bore to haul that beer belly around!). Lots of folks are going to get killed on these things, and we are going to see a backlash over "safety", like we saw in the 3-wheeler days.
Posted by: reconranger
Hollywood- Most utilities now have selectable 2wd/4wd, so almost nobody is riding around in 4wd all day, and "spreading" that 800cc big bore power around between all 4 wheels. If you read posts from folks who have installed a Warn 424 on their full-time 4wd, it is the fact that they can now slide the back end, that they all say they love.
Perhaps utes are riden more conservatively because they appeal to an older demographic than sport bikes, and the machines are heavy and more clumsy.
Posted by: reconranger
As far as trail damage, just like one has to have sense enough to wear a helmet for safety, sometimes trail conditions are so bad that you just need to have the sense to stay home and not tear the trail up. But, just like with the helmet issue, you can never count on everybody to be sensible enough to do it.
As far as safety, the worst crashes I have seen, have taken place when the bike is hardly even moving, or even standing still! They happen when somebody trys to climb a hill and can't make it, and they find themselves at such a steep angle that they can't hold the bike and keep it from rolling. Here, a light little 350 lb. sport bike with a low center of gravity and wide track is going to be easier and safer to get down off the hill, than a huge top heavy 750 lb. monster ute. And you don't even what to get me started about the crashes I have seen because somebody didn't use their loading ramps correctly!
I don't want to offend anybody, but these huge "cruiser couch" utes seem to appeal most to an aging baby boomer demographic, who are looking for a cush comfortable ride and the added security of 4wd. These folks tend to be weaker and less fit, and just aren't capable of handling a big heavy machine when it gets into trouble. And sometimes having 4wd can tempt you into more risky situations than a 2wd would. In a sense, THOSE AT MOST RISK ARE THE VERY YOUNG AND THE VERY OLD. The young because of inexperience, and the old because they can't handle the machines. I really think these two groups are actually more at risk than even some wild teenager who is riding his Blaster toooo fast.
Posted by: reconranger
There is also the issue of a solid axle. In a corner, one of the tires is going to have to slip, no matter what. An IRS machine might have an advantage here, but when you lock the lockers, that disapears.
Posted by: snowbuster
Quote
Originally posted by: Hollywood330
In June of this year, I participated in an ATV environmental impact study done by the United States Department of Agriculture, Forest Service.
This was a week long event in Washington State, northwest of Wenatchee. This was the final location in this study that was done nation-wide over the course of the last year.
Trails were carefully surveyed and variety of ATV's and tire types were used.
The first day was a setup day in which recording telemetry was attached to the ATV's to measure everything from speed to horizontal and lateral acceleration.
We ran cycles over several different trail surfaces with 2 x 4 and 4 x4 quads.........with stock tires......and the aggressive 589's.
After 40 "cycles" the computer laiden ATV's would be downloaded and measurements made of the trail surface and back out we'd go.
At the end of the week we'd completed in excess of 400 cycles.......and enough information gathered to open a library...........
If nothing else, it was abundantly clear that it is riding style, not type of quad, that causes damage to trails........AND......... that a utility 4 x 4 has LESS impact on a trail than a sport 2 x 4, due to the "spreading" of the power to the driving wheels.
Better re-think that theory that it's the 4 x4's that are "killing" the trails.............they're not.
I thought the exact thing (well maybe not exact but somewhere along those lines) when I first read the thread. But I think what he mean is that on the days the trail is muddy and "loose" the guys on 4x4s are the ones out there and tearing it up. Im sure if the 2x4s were out there on the same day it would do more damage but I believe what he is saying its not them and it is the 4x4s. ss97, please tell me if that is correct.
Posted by: snowbuster
Tread depth isn&39;t a legal issue, sound level is.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Geeeeeeezzzuusssssss anyway.........
I'll preface my comments with the fact that everybody has a right to there own opinion,
not everybody has to like it or agree with it.
Sometime you have to agree to disagree.
My thoughts don't attack anybody, this is just discussion img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Like Hollywood said about the findings of that study........
You can't just blame the Utes for tearing up the hills.......
It is everybody..............
The Utes may have agressive tires and 4WD, they may throw some mud, dig some holes......
So do the sporties.....There tires are generally wider, with some pretty agressive tread also.
Sure the Utes weigh a little more....
How bout the sporties trying the hills over and over and over because they can't make it up????
How many times does it take for them to make it up the hill?????
hhhhhhmmmmmmm, many tries = lots of mud throwing also.........
You say "I have no problem with the big utility quads for work, I just prefer the sport machines for fun"
So what does that mean? Utes should only do work, they have no right going up hills for fun???
If a Sportie can use the hill or trail, why can't a Ute?
What if I were to say
"I have no problem with sporties on the race track or the dunes, but I like Utes for fun. But keep the sporties off the trails, they tear them up".
I've been on trails that suck because the motorcycles have made a single track rut, Ive been on trails that suck because jeeps and trucks have put big ruts in and are wider than my quad, I've been on quad trails that suck because there are ruts.
I've been on freeways that suck because semi-trucks have made them bumpy due to their weight (due to crappy materials), so the big rig drivers should be considerate and keep off the freeways.......geeeeezzzzzzzz
Bottom line is deal with it, and learn to ride those hills. I ride with some pretty dang good sportie riders that there isn't much that can stop them. Sure some of the riding is pretty dang challenging, and maybe even some they can't get through, but they have fun trying (most of the time).
If these hills you are talking about are on your fathers property, then by all means you have the right to keep certain folks (or quads) from ruining them. That is your right.
But don't tell anybody to not ride in certain areas that they can legally ride, because you don't like it.
Now that I've probably thoroughly P'd you off.......
I will agree with you that ALL riders need to respect ALL riders, no mattter what you ride (or how many wheels you have).
ALL riders need to respect the environment and "Tread Lighty".
But you say "There are tons of other mud-bog areas to ride in this case there is no reason for them to have use those trails"
If they have the right to use "those trails", you have no right to say they there is no reason for them to use them (unless fo course it is your private property).
There are many things in life that are challenging for one person, one group, one vehicle, due to the way somebody or something affects that particular thing.
We have options when challenged with these situation. It's how we handle these challenges that makes us.
Sometimes we can persevere and beat the challenge, sometime we can't.
Sometimes we can make it up that hill, sometimes we can't.......
None of this probably makes sense, so I better go to bed.
Good Luck
Posted by: Quad4Fun
As for the safety issue and killing people................
Accidents do happen, no matter what you are doing...
How you ride, how well you know your limits, how well you know the capabilities/limits of your machine, if you wear ALL the appropriate safety gear, will ultimately lessen or heighten your chances of getting injured or killed. Not whether or not you ride a Sportie or a Ute.
Sure these Utes are big, heavy, and powerful......
But aren't the Sporties also, light, fast, agile, and how bout the power to weight ratio???
A Sportie can get away from you just as well as a Utility.
As they are making Utilities bigger, heavier, more powerful........
They are making Sporties lighter and more powerful......
With the aftermarket industry, it's all about making the sporties faster and giving them more power.
People will get killed on both Utes and Sporties.
I would challenge you to show more people get, or will get, killed on Utes than Sporties.
The bottom line accidents will happen no matter if you are on a quad, motorcycle, in a car, truck, etc.
An idiot/reckless driver can get killed driving an AMC Pacer or Pinto Wagon...........
A good/careful driver can drive a Porsche or Lamborghini for a lifetime without getting killed.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Quote
Originally posted by: maxrpm
Quote
Originally posted by: reconranger
Lots of folks are going to get killed on these things, and we are going to see a backlash over "safety", like we saw in the 3-wheeler days.
No doubt...............Look at the new 800s. Just how fast do you need to go on a 800# lawn tractor anyway? Why not just get a sport? All it would take is for one to roll over on you and your done. Not to mention most of the beerbellyed utility riders I've seen don't wear helmets.
You both have got to be kidding.........
Lots of folks are going to get killed on these things?????
And people don't get killed on Sporties...hhhmmmm
A backlash over safety because of the Utilities??????
Maybe backlash because of all the idiot riders, no matter what they ride
Why Not just get a Sport???????
Oh ya, great idea...get a Sportie because they are so much faster that you "F" yourself up even better when you crash..
All it would take is for one to roll on you????
All it takes is one Sportie to auger into a tree while flying down the trail, all it takes is one sportie to fly off a razorback at the dunes.........
Most of the beerbellied Utility don't wear helmets????
Try going to the dunes and checking out all the guys riding Sporties without helmets..
At that, Sporties that are so modified up they are just flatt a$$ fasterer than hell..
All the while doing 60-70 mph across the dunes, climbing and jumping monster hills.
You know what, I love riding both Sporties and Utes... They are both fun for what they are built for.
This is a great sport, and not without risks, as any other sport.
Our Sport has enough people against us, trying to regulate and ban the use of quads, trying to close down more and more of our riding areas. We don't do ourselves or the sport any good by publicly slamming and degrading any part of it. We will only be hurting ourselves
As I said above..... Riding a Sport or Utes makes no difference.....
"How you ride, how well you know your limits, how well you know the capabilities/limits of your machine, if you wear ALL the appropriate safety gear, will ultimately lessen or heighten your chances of getting injured or killed. Not whether or not you ride a Sportie or a Ute."
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Good points by everybody.
"Some people just need to be mature and realize everybody doesn't wear the same pair of glasses when looking at the world, so we all see things a little different and we shouldn't be punished or diminished in any way because we do so. "
Absolutely.......
----------
The tree huggers win when we divide ourselves into small factions, and fight amoung ourselves.
My point exactly.............
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Brute,
Your sarcasm was funny, at least I thought so img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I got your point.....
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Speed,
That is true, I won't ride my Rincon on any grass or whevever I can do "damage" where it shouldn't be done. The stock tires are very agressive. Some Sporties come stock with tires that are not very agressive, but most folks do end up putting more aggressive tires on there Sporties, depending on the riding they do. I've seen Sportie tires that do the same thing.
----------
ss97's point is true,
Utes can tear up things pretty good, maybe sometimes better than others..
But so can Sporties and motorcycles...... It's often times the cumalitive effect of everybody riding an area that tears it up.........
We all just need to be responsible and think......
AMEN
Posted by: hondabuster
You must be a tree hugger , sent to stir the pot.
Posted by: hondabuster
brutebadger, Well said,
"Some people just need to be mature and realize everybody doesn't wear the same pair of glasses when looking at the world, so we all see things a little different and we shouldn't be punished or diminished in any way because we do so. "
There is so much division in the world now adays,"either youre with us or against us", mentallity is makeing people intolerant of others.
I think the point is the same, as with the gun issue. Guns dont kill people, people kill people. 4x4s dont rut...unless a human is on it. The inanamate object doesnt do any damage,...its the driver doing the damage.
I try to practice tread lightly prinicpals, and I know my 4x4s cause less damage to the envirionment, then if i was on a 2x4 , because im able to keep traction better.
The tree huggers win when we divide ourselves into small factions, and fight amoung ourselves.
Posted by: heatseeker8
Let me preface these comments with the perverbial "everyone is entitled to their opinions"
I rode with a AC with the ITP 589's..And for the life of me couldnt believe the ruts he left while just trail riding.
Instead of having a sound check at our riding spots..how about a tread depth check?..nothing over 1 inch should be a good start.
Posted by: ss97
I have no problem with the big utility quads for work, I just prefer the sport machines for fun. That said I am in no way being biased when I say they are wrecking the trails. There are now a couple hills we used to ride up that are all but impossible to climb now because of the guys on the big 4x4s going out on the mud and tearing the trails up. These things just keep getting bigger and heavier and more powerful, and the tires are getting more agressive.
I can tell you first hand that when a half-dozen of these things go up a one-line hill in the woods, in the mud, that hill is now useless to anyone on a normal ATV. My father on his 4x4 Scrambler took about 5 tries to finally get up this hill and it wasn't pretty. After my second failure to ride with one tire on either hump to straddle the huge ditches I gave up and went back. The trenches must be 10-12 inches deep at least and there is no other line on the trail.
People complain that it's the sport machines ripping the trails up, and in some senses that may be true, but at least we don't make them impassable for everyone else. I can appreciate the fun mud-flinging factor here and I'm no one to tell people not to ride. However, use common sense. Don't destroy it for other people. If it's so muddy that you are going to wreck the trails, don't ride in the trails. Go find a mud-pit and play there.
This has been an Internet rant.......have a nice day!
Posted by: ss97
The point is the hills:
On hills in the mud, these guys are using the 4x4 with lockers because it's the only way to get up the hill. And anyone who thinks the sport quads weighing 350-400lbs with two power wheels, is moving anywhere near the mud that these 700+ pound 4x4s with huge 26" mud tires are moving you need to re-do your study. It's not even a comparison in terms of volume.
I've watched these things dig huge trenches in the hillside, displacing hudreds of pounds of soil and leaving nothing but a gaping hole in it's path. You are left with two giant ruts that only other big 4x4s (or even a dirt bike) can traverse.
It's not about tree hugging, or defending anything.
As was pointed out above it's a scary industry trend with these things getting so big and so powerful. I'm sure stock-for-stock your basic Honda Recon 400 is not doing more damage than your basic YFZ450, on dry trails. But you put one of these big bore 700/800cc utes with huge mud flingers onto a wet trails and the damage is severe.
It's to the point on my Father's property that he is going to tell his 4x4 buddies to not go out in the mud on the hills at all. There are tons of other mud-bog areas to ride in this case there is no reason for them to have use those trails.
Posted by: ss97
Guys,
My main point is this: The big UTES can traverse the trails in the heavy mud and they do. The sport machine CANNOT make it up these hills in the mud no matter the tires or power.
I personally don't really ride my trails when it's really muddy all the time because I don't want to ruin my own trails.
The difference is that the sports do damage, but not the kind of damage that make the trails impossible to traverse. Generally the corner get flat and burmed, not rutted and runied with a huge hump in the center.
And I'm sure most of you guys on the 4x4s are not like these few morons we deal with. And I can understand the fun in going out in the mud. But you can go out in the mud without killing the one-line trails.
Posted by: ss97
also I didn't want to sound anti-utility either. I would never tell anyone what to ride for their own fix of fun.
Posted by: predatorrr
where i live u get dirty looks from alot of people.if u dont ride a util. they just dont like ya,they r to noisy to fast and the cops hate them cause no one stops for them. i love my pred and thats all i do is tear through their rough trail faster with as much beer on back..and yes if u want u dont have to stick around to see what the cops wanted
Posted by: maxrpm
Quote
Originally posted by: reconranger
Lots of folks are going to get killed on these things, and we are going to see a backlash over "safety", like we saw in the 3-wheeler days.
No doubt...............Look at the new 800s. Just how fast do you need to go on a 800# lawn tractor anyway? Why not just get a sport? All it would take is for one to roll over on you and your done. Not to mention most of the beerbellyed utility riders I've seen don't wear helmets.
Posted by: Hollywood330
In June of this year, I participated in an ATV environmental impact study done by the United States Department of Agriculture, Forest Service.
This was a week long event in Washington State, northwest of Wenatchee. This was the final location in this study that was done nation-wide over the course of the last year.
Trails were carefully surveyed and variety of ATV's and tire types were used.
The first day was a setup day in which recording telemetry was attached to the ATV's to measure everything from speed to horizontal and lateral acceleration.
We ran cycles over several different trail surfaces with 2 x 4 and 4 x4 quads.........with stock tires......and the aggressive 589's.
After 40 "cycles" the computer laiden ATV's would be downloaded and measurements made of the trail surface and back out we'd go.
At the end of the week we'd completed in excess of 400 cycles.......and enough information gathered to open a library...........
If nothing else, it was abundantly clear that it is riding style, not type of quad, that causes damage to trails........AND......... that a utility 4 x 4 has LESS impact on a trail than a sport 2 x 4, due to the "spreading" of the power to the driving wheels.
Better re-think that theory that it's the 4 x4's that are "killing" the trails.............they're not.
Posted by: Hollywood330
Recon.......you're absolutely correct. The point is, when given the situation where 4x4 is an option in difficult terrain, impact is lessened......instead of having to power through (or up), spinning two tires, you have the option to use 3 or 4 contact patches.........and again......it's the riders choice.
The 800 cc quad only leaves as much of a "mark" as the rider decides to. An aggressive rider on a 300 cc ATV can do just as much damage as the bigger bikes.........we proved that !
There was an excellent point made in an earlier thread about dirt bikes and their impact being somewhat more noticable........and they're right........far more than most ATV's.
It all boils down to rider responsibility...........thats the bottom line.
It was our impression that the USDA, Forest Service was a bit surprised by the favorable conditions the trails were left in during this extensive study.
This information is going to have a direct influence on the future of open riding areas across the U.S.
.......But it all comes back to us as riders..........it all in the thumb.......and helmet.
Posted by: Hollywood330
.....outstanding there, predatorrr...........!
(anyone see a problem here ?...............)
Posted by: brutebadger
Sounds to me like you guys are just jealous. Maybe you should all go and get a 4x4 ute so you can have some real fun.
Just from my riding experience, I have seen the sports do far more damage. We on our grandpa machines crawl up the mud and slop why our fellow sport riders in the group have it WOT and digging trenches the whole way up just to make it where we can go. I guess its all in how you look at it.
Posted by: brutebadger
Yeah, in my post I was trying to add a little sarcasm but that is really hard to so when writing. I just wanted to show how ridiculous this thread is.
Quad4fun, as far as what you had to say, I am not P'd off at all. All I have to say is AMEN.
Some people just need to be mature and realize everybody doesn't wear the same pair of glasses when looking at the world, so we all see things a little different and we shouldn't be punished or diminished in any way because we do so.
Happy trails.....no matter what you ride and respect those who differ from you.
Posted by: CrashinIt
lots of beers and dubbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: ACFreerider
Quote
Originally posted by: predatorrr
where i live u get dirty looks from alot of people.if u dont ride a util. they just dont like ya,they r to noisy to fast
I agree with that 100%. I have been pulled over like 4 times by people pretty much because my quad looks fast. I went like 15-20 past this one guy and he yelled at me "SLOW THE **** DOWN!". I really dont see what his problem was consider I wasn't going fast and he was walking down a trail in the middle of nowhere. As for the utes recking trails-I dont think they really cause that much damage to the trails. Sports and utes are about even on the trails around here. Now sand pits on the other hand is where I think utes shouldnt be allowed to go. There have been so many times I go to sand pits and there are ruts like 8in deep making it impossible to climb it with a sport. They think just cause they have 4x4 they can climb it slow and still make it but instead they don't make it and reck the hill while there at it. I don't mind them on the trails but stay outa sand pits if your going to put it into 4wheeldrive or if you have big mud tires on it.
Posted by: speedped79
i know its mostly driver but just on plain grass i can fly and stuff on my warrior and do no damage while my friends sp400 tears lil tread marks just driving and its his stock tires that are half worn and also i used to be able to go through this one muddy trail then he went through it a few times now nobody without a 4x4 can make it through and i used to be able to go through all day long now i need hip boots and a tow rope and friend
