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Posted by: maddog56
I have covered this quite a few times in the numerous ltz/kfx/dvx vs ex threads. Search and you can see a lot of good comparisons by forum members.
Posted by: maddog56
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Originally posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Liquid cooled is better in every condition.
Definately not true. Ever seen a 400ex on the side of the trail because of a busted water pump or radiator hose?
Echo, I said to search because I had made a fairly general liquid vs air/oil cooled comparison many times in these threads that didnt depend on the bike you were using.
Posted by: maddog56
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Originally posted by: ubertrailblazer01
what about air scoops? how much would those help an air cooled
Just about every set of air scoops I've seen on the market are for the radiators on liquid cooled atvs. The cylinder heads have fins on them but you wont get much cooling from any kind of air scoop unless its directed towards the engine itself with I've never seen air scoops do.
Posted by: reconranger
echo-I own both. Get the EX only if you exclusively ride very tight, semi-technical trails. That engine doesn't mind being lugged down and ridden slowly. For anything else, get the Z! The Z is by far the best all-around machine available right now.
Posted by: bulldogz400
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Originally posted by: maddog56[/iEver seen a 400ex on the side of the trail because of a busted water pump or radiator hose?
.
No, but I have seen one on the side of the road because it overheated!
You are right, liquid cooling does mean more parts, which equals higher probablility of some sort of failure, but these kinds of problems are few and far between. I am on a z400 board with thosands of members, and know of 1, yes 1, person who has had a stick driven into their radiator. Yes, it can happen, but odds are very slim.
Posted by: Ozark38
I LOVE drag racing Zs cause they always find a new respect for the 400EX when I'm done...............but its not what your thinking. Its not that I'm faster cause sometimes I'm not, but its more so that they "thought they were" cause of all the post just like this one.................
Posted by: khen
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Originally posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Get the Z400! they both handle as well, but the Z400 has a much more powerfull/ advanced engine!
Much more powerful engine?? You obviously don't have a clue.
Posted by: khen
I never ran my stock 400EX against a stock Z but I beat a stock Z with my piped EX quite easily and my piped EX ran equal to my brothers piped KFX. Believe me, I raced him many times and it was ALL about who got the better start.
Posted by: khen
BTW(while I'm on my soapbox) the only time I've ever had a problem with my 416EX overheating was when I was climbing a steep, long hill in the dunes(Sandmountain) back to back times, the power just faded off and I had to shift down. I was also running really lean at the time and was running a hotter plug than is recommended by Honda.
I'm not saying that one is better than the other, I'm just saying don't buy into all the crap you read on these forums about 400EX's overheating by people that have probably never even owned one.
Posted by: khen
So what do you think makes the Z400 engine more "advanced"? is it the liquid cooling? the double overhead cam?
1- I don't believe the reason for manufactures going to liquid cooling has anything to do with it being more advanced, liquid cooling has been around waaay longer than the invention of the quad. It's much more costly for a manufacture to design an effective high performance air cooled engine than to design a liquid cooled platform, but Honda nailed it with the XR400/400EX engine. The reason most high performance quads are going towards liquid cooling is because the manufactures can get a new design from the drawing board to the showroom floor quicker/cheaper using a liquid cooled design. If you want to read a good article confirming my point, read this article on the high performance air cooled Ducati 1000 DS http://www.motorcycledaily.com/21october02ducatids.html.
2- Honda still uses the SOHC design on it's latest iteration of sport dirt bikes/quads and they're every bit as competitive as the other manufactures DOHC engines.
I don't dislike the Z400, I think it's a great quad.. but it does not dominate the 400EX in any way.
Posted by: khen
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Originally posted by: 86LT250RFatty
I didnt say anything about one overheating. But the Z400 is more powerful and faster then a 400ex!!! My friend Victor had a 430EX with a DMC Exhaust and K&N, and it was only a little faster then gregs Z400 with a Yoshi Slip on and K&N
I guess results vary then.. Like I said my piped 400EX ran with piped Z400's, my 416EX is a whole different animal. My brother's going to be doing some engine work on his piped KFX, he's going to do a cam, thinner gaskets for higher compression and possibly a carb. I would suspect after this work I might be looking at a carb for my 416EX to run with him. But right now my 416 clearly has more power, he'll tell you that.
Posted by: khen
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Originally posted by: echo75
Hey khen -
Great link the air cooled Ducati 1000 DS read is just the kind of unbyist article I was wanting to read. I knew there was a reason that companies like Honda were still using air cooled motors. I'm still leaning towards the Z but I will still consider the EX. If I do not get a chance to ride both before I buy it may come down to price.
Thanks everyone who has replied.
Echo -
Yep, You can't go wrong either way.. good luck and enjoy!
Posted by: Scooter86
There are some instances where liquid cooling can be worse, the main one that comes to mind is really muddy conditions if your radiator gets plugged full of mud your liquid cooled engine will overheat. Other than that, here is my take on it:
Air cooled pros- Simple design, less moving parts, less to break down on the trail.
cons- Can't handle higher compression, could run hot with big bore kit=less reliability
Liquid cooling pros- More consistant engine temps, engine can tolerate tighter tolerances/higher comp, makes more power in general
cons- cooling system failure likely to be catastrophic
Posted by: Scooter86
Echo, I would go with the new Z unless you can get an absolutely smokin' deal on a 400ex. The method of engine cooling should have a lot less to do with your selection than power, handling, suspension, comfort, etc. The z is the better bike of the two for most people most of the time, although there is no shame in riding red.
Posted by: Scooter86
khen, easy killer. I haven't seen anyone saying the ex is susceptible to overheating. I do think that the z would have more long term reliability with, say, a 440 or 450 kit plus other engine mods.
Posted by: Boxhead
With air cooled it's a good idea for the oil cooler, really helps keep the motor cool. It's a pretty fun project installing one too.
Posted by: GTFZ250
liquid cooled also can run a higher compression ratio. Over all the Z does have more power but a ex is a bullit proof trails bike. The ex should have a weight advantage just for that reason that air-cooled motors have less parts but I dont think it has much of an advantage if any.
Posted by: 13inc
Air-cooled engines tend to be more weather sensitive.
Posted by: moldycheese
one nice thing to, isan aircooled motor is better balenced front to back than a liquid cooled engine for jumping and wheelying. i guess with the 650's and such today it realy doesnt matter, but back when 4 strokes were only like 250's it made a big diffrence.
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Liquid cooled is better in every condition. It maintains a constant tempature which is easy on the motor. also, you can add a temp guage into the radiatior to see what temp you are running, and making sure your not over heating. If you get your motor really dirty ( gunky dirt, mud, ect, ) it will greatly decrease the air-cooled engine's ability to cool itself, where as it wont phase the liquid cooled and would still run consistant. also, the Z400 is a much greater bike then the 400ex. Good luck!
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
get the liquid cooled. Rarely if ever a waterpump breaks, ive never seen/heard of that problem. water cooled is just more advanced... all the high performance quads are liquid cooled, YFZ 450, TRX 450R, Raptor 660R, Z400, 250R, banshee..... see the trend?
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Get the Z400! they both handle as well, but the Z400 has a much more powerfull/ advanced engine!
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Yes i do have a clue. The Z400 has a more powerfull and advanced engine then the 400ex.
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
I didnt say anything about one overheating. But the Z400 is more powerful and faster then a 400ex!!! My friend Victor had a 430EX with a DMC Exhaust and K&N, and it was only a little faster then gregs Z400 with a Yoshi Slip on and K&N
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
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Originally posted by: echo75
Hey khen -
Great link the air cooled Ducati 1000 DS read is just the kind of unbyist article I was wanting to read. I knew there was a reason that companies like Honda were still using air cooled motors. I'm still leaning towards the Z but I will still consider the EX. If I do not get a chance to ride both before I buy it may come down to price.
Thanks everyone who has replied.
Echo -
no problem and good luck, both are great bikes. Happy trails!!!
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
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Originally posted by: YamahaAtvFreak
Plus if your riding in a tail and a stick goes through your radiator. Your Screwed.
god i cant spell for my life, pissing me off, my keyboard sukks!
Thats why theirs a sheild in front of the radiator..and the plastic too
Posted by: QuadZillas
I would have to say they both have there advantages and disadvantages but to say that a lot of mud would plug the cooling fins on an air cooled, what about the radiator on a liquid cooled motor?
Posted by: iwannaride2
The honda is more reliable and much better for the woods. But also on the flipside i would choose the z400 not for its speed but for its power and yes it being liquid cooled. it is a much closer running between the two since the ex now has reverse where used to in that reason the z400 was much better. It is really all in what you plan to do with in. mx ride. woods ride or woods race
Posted by: nosliw
your ex doesnt like being bogged down?? BR>
mine LOVES it! my bros ds650 doesnt like being lugged down as much as my ex and it's got 250cc's on me!
Posted by: Exrider22
echo check your private messages
Posted by: ZillaRider87
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Originally posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Yes i do have a clue. The Z400 has a more powerfull and advanced engine then the 400ex.
yessir, i'd have to agree
Posted by: ubertrailblazer01
what about air scoops? how much would those help an air cooled
Posted by: VelociRaptor350
I ride my bike super hard and i neevr had problems with overheating, air cooled motors have a little more give in their design to deal with expansion and contraction, they are a little "looser". An oil cooler will effectivly drop oil temps enough when your going big with an air cooled motor, personally i think the only thing that makes the newer bikes better is the valvetrain setups they are using, not the liquid cooling.
Posted by: echo75
I'm going to buy a new 4-wheeler soon, but I'm really torn between a Z-400 and a 400EX. Can some explain the advantages and disadvantages of air cooled and liquid cooled motors. I understand that a liquid cooled motor will run more efficiently, but doesn't more parts on a motor mean more things that can break or go wrong. I'm wondering why one manufacturer would use a liquid cooled motor and one would use air cooled.
Posted by: echo75
Hey maddog56 -
I'm didn't want to start another honda vs. suzuki vs. yamaha comparison thread, I think thats been run into the ground already. I'm looking for information on liquid cooled and air cooled motors in general. Whether it be ATV's, dirt bikes or old Volkswagens. I'm looking for what would be a better adavantage for me and my style of riding. I will do a search too.
Posted by: echo75
Thanks maddog56 -
I'll look them up. I'm doing as much research as I can before buying a new ATV. I want to know everything I can about both quads.
Posted by: echo75
Thanks reconranger -
I've been leaning towards the Z but Honda does make a great 4-wheeler, and I don't understand why both quads have the same MSRP when the Honda's technology seems lights years behind the Suzuki. I just don't want to buy a quad that's wrong for me like I did in the past. Now I'm stuck trying to sell it after only owning it for a few months. I would like to buy something I can enjoy for a few years.
Thanks everyone who replied to my post.
Echo -
Posted by: echo75
Hey khen -
Great link the air cooled Ducati 1000 DS read is just the kind of unbyist article I was wanting to read. I knew there was a reason that companies like Honda were still using air cooled motors. I'm still leaning towards the Z but I will still consider the EX. If I do not get a chance to ride both before I buy it may come down to price.
Thanks everyone who has replied.
Echo -
Posted by: YamahaAtvFreak
Air cooled in only bad when u are idleing or if u do engine mods like bring it over. Plus if your riding in a tail and a stick goes through your radiator. Your Screwed. Plus if u want you can get an oil cooler for an air-cooled motor.
god i cant spell for my life, pissing me off, my keyboard sukks!
