Originally posted by: 400CatDriver
"...Well said sir! I've been of the opinion for quite some time that the American people have become sheep. We only have three real weapons to fight for our rights and what we want. Our voices (call or write that politician), our vote (if that politician doesn't respond), and our wallets....And stop buying that cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart!..."
Well put and it really is as simple as that.
I guess that my problem with 'our voices' in relation to this sport; is that nobody is speaking for us presently that has an actual 'mandate' to do so. These leaders have purposely split the sport into just as many portions as these non-profit 'careers' could possibly support...and this pure selfishness combined many times with flat out greed has rendered us just about totally ineffective.
"...By the way...I agree with the other comments on responsibility. What ever happened to just being a good citizen? Pick up your trash and don't be a jerk out there!...."
Agreed again; yet I believe that properly led organizations with more of a 'zero tolerance' approach is our only means of getting unified voices together on even 'the basics' as you mentioned. If you've got guys out there more worried about closing down the trails to everybody but themselves and fighting the kind of privitized maintenance programs needed to actually get the job done when we're all dead and gone (not to mention 'closed door' policies regarding the discussion of funding matters that make the whole process work)...then you sure as heck aren't going to see them have 'time' for teaching the masses or even recruiting them if few desire to be associated with that kind of behavior in the first place.
Being rude and an arrogant self-centered greedy arse has its advantages...as if you're 'good' enough at it...everybody with half a dose of copmmon sense eventually leaves you alone to do whatever in the heck you may want with the resource.(which is why you don't witness the younger people we desperately need being taught to take over this mess and the same people time after time at these meetings..."if" some of these old coots choose to hold one out in the light of day).
Posted by: blackballed
Originally posted by: 400CatDriver
"...Well said sir! I've been of the opinion for quite some time that the American people have become sheep. We only have three real weapons to fight for our rights and what we want. Our voices (call or write that politician), our vote (if that politician doesn't respond), and our wallets....And stop buying that cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart!..."
Well put and it really is as simple as that.
I guess my problwem with #1 in relation to this sport is that nobody is speaking for us that has an actual 'mandate' to do so. These leaders have purposely split the sport into just as many directions as a non-profit 'career' could be built on...and this pure selfishness combined many times with flat out greed has rendered us just about totally ineffective.
"...By the way...I agree with the other comments on responsibility. What ever happened to just being a good citizen? Pick up your trash and don't be a jerk out there!...."
Agreed again; yet I believe that properly led organizations with more of a 'zero tolerance' approach is our only means of getting unified voices together on even 'the basics' as you mentioned. If you've got guys out there more worried about closing down the trails to everybody but themselves and fighting the kind of privitized maintenance programs needed to actually get the job done when we're all dead and gone (not to mention 'closed door' policies regarding the discussion of funding matters that make the whole process work)...then you sure as heck aren't going to see them have 'time' for teaching the masses or even recruiting them if few desire to be associated with that kind of behavior in the first place.
Being rude and an arrogant, self-centered greedy arse certainly has its advantages...as if you're 'good' enough at it...everybody with even half a dose of common sense eventually leaves you alone to do whatever in the heck you may want with the resource!(which is why you don't witness the younger people we dso esperately need being taught to take over this mess and the same people time after time at these meetings..."if" some of these old coots choose to even hold one out here in the light of day).
This may not be what's happening in your neck of the woods, I oviously agree...yet it's funny to me that what happens at the largerst maintained system we have out there...should be such a 'non-issue' with both national leadership and the members that they serve...instead of a 'model' that neither one of these two groups choose to emulate or even 'debate' for reason of all the good people Michigan's goat rodeo has chased away.
Posted by: blackballed
Originally posted by: mywifesquad:
"I assumed your refering to the "current orv leadership" as the 2 wheeled guys". I have top wonder how many in Mich share your feelings.."
Current orv leadership (nationally) has supported whatever nonsense the "2 wheeled guys" in leadership locally have come up with for literally decades without question...always have...always will.
Think about it, MWQ...if you've got one segment of this community continually attempting to distance themselves both on the trail and even (unbelievably) "environmental impact -wise" from the rest of us...and these same people have 100% support at the top..what in the heck type of community can we build...with these very same people still in place?
As for anybody sharing my views(?)...I'd settle for a simple 'dispute' to anything that I've said here to date...which frankly just isn't going to happen(facts are facts).
"... BB we have been paying to play in Ca for over 30 years. There has always been more than enough money to take care of the off road needs and STILL there has been enough money for the California gov to steal from..They usually take more than 50% of what was taken in..."
If you guys have had more than enough money to meet all of your off-road needs over the last 30 years charging $13 per year at the most expensive place on the planet; while half of that paltry sum went down the toilet or was effectively used against you...well then, by gosh, that's one heck of an accomplishment.
Sorry, I'm not biting...
"...We pay $6.00 a day and $26.00 every 2 years for registration.."
What is $6 per day in California...in "real dollars" everywhere else?
A buck fifty?
$13 per year(?)....well, thank god that you don't have to pay $16.25 per year as we do here in Michigan...as that just about 'breaks' all of us guys out here riding nothing but bone stock $10,000 machines (we all just can't even afford the accessories, you know) picking pop bottles up by the side of the road for gas to get to the trailhead!
If your leadership isn't getting the job done and has gotten you into this massive closure mess by honestly not being very darn good at what they do...then for gosh sakes give everyone the boot that doesn't have the guts to admit that wwhat e've been doing for decades now...obviously isn't working.
Nobody wants to argue the fact that we're all divided and not anywhere NEAR being under the same roof them with the power needed to get the job done...but few in the sport are simply willing to admit that the emperor has no clothes.
(all for now; ran out of time...)
Posted by: blackballed
That's good to hear and obviously something one can only pretty much appreciate after going through it for that length of time (Dragginbutt's story about made my body parts twinge also).
Modern medicine and the grace of God are both wonderful things and I'm looking forward to the both of them working on your recovery; along with hopefully a chance to someday receive your input on the issues which we face.
Best of luck,
John
Posted by: blackballed
(double post)
Posted by: Scootergptx
Welcome to the forms.
Interesting first post.
Global warming will continue, once the flaming begins here.
Posted by: Scootergptx
I'm curious about Al Gore's movie. Would I find it in the science fiction section?
Posted by: Scootergptx
Originally posted by: KINGQUAD450
Al Gore's film on global warming has become the only scientific evidence the environmental wacko's need to end off roading and maybe even NASCAR racing.
As long as that's what they're using a baseline, then I wouldn't worry too much.
I'd believe about as much in that movie as I would in a Michael Moore "documentary".
Posted by: 400CatDriver
I don't think you'll have to worry about the Democrats closing the parks. They'll be too busy cleaning up after Republicans to worry about us.
Posted by: 400CatDriver
Originally posted by: blackballed
If the present off-road leadership that is largely responsible for getting us into this massive closure mess....keep tuning in here to find that we're all still time and again blaming the "politicians and greenies" for our lack of proper access or even respect....then you've got to believe that their strategy of "pay-no-attention-to-that-man-behind-the-curtain" has truly worked out here in the land of off-road Oz.
The largest land closures in the history of man are happening all around us...yet we're all about ready to throw in the towel here because Hilary and 'global warming' are the sky-is-falling subjects of the day.....rather than simply demanding that competent leadership tout zero-tolerance; one-roof organization or even "pay-to-play" as our rallying cries.
Democrats didn't kill this sport.
It was the people in it and their unwillingness to stand up for what wasn't necessarily easy to do...when the time truly came to do it. [IMG][/IMG]
Well said sir! I've been of the opinion for quite some time that the American people have become sheep. We only have three real weapons to fight for our rights and what we want. Our voices (call or write that politician), our vote (if that politician doesn't respond), and our wallets.
And stop buying that cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart!
I need more coffee.
By the way...I agree with the other comments on responsibility. What ever happened to just being a good citizen? Pick up your trash and don't be a jerk out there!
Posted by: Faster250R
A few here sound like politicians! Don't like it? Get involed and/or join an association that supports our cause!
"bring me solutions, not problems."
Posted by: mywifesquad
Welcome to the forum 76diesel!
Very interesting first post.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Originally posted by: 400CatDriver
I don't think you'll have to worry about the Democrats closing the parks. They'll be too busy cleaning up after Republicans to worry about us.
Yawn.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Originally posted by: blackballed
If the present off-road leadership that is largely responsible for getting us into this massive closure mess....keep tuning in here to find that we're all still time and again blaming the "politicians and greenies" for our lack of proper access or even respect....then you've got to believe that their strategy of "pay-no-attention-to-that-man-behind-the-curtain" has truly worked out here in the land of off-road Oz.
The largest land closures in the history of man are happening all around us...yet we're all about ready to throw in the towel here because Hilary and 'global warming' are the sky-is-falling subjects of the day.....rather than simply demanding that competent leadership tout zero-tolerance; one-roof organization or even "pay-to-play" as our rallying cries.
Democrats didn't kill this sport.
It was the people in it and their unwillingness to stand up for what wasn't necessarily easy to do...when the time truly came to do it.
This refers to the 2 wheeled guys in Mich. I assume? Or the whole country this time?
Since Ive been doing this I think it started with sound, We were too loud. Then it was desert tortoise, We were killing all of them. Then it moved on the the spotted owl, we were affecting them also. Lastly it was the threat to the deer population. All were proven wrong. Now they have moved on to erosion, noise and global warming. What is scary to me is slowly the land is being taken away and like you say only a very few get involved at all. And as a bonus a lot of those involved with the sport are our worst enemies. Not real good for public relations a lot of the time.
They are doing a pretty good job of it here in Ca. Not sure about Mich.
Yawn.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Originally posted by: blackballed
(blackballed):
I'm not certain what particular portion of my commentary you are referring to.... but Michigan (IMO) has been an ugly microcosm that truly represents the rudderless mess that we have all been in for quite some time now. (it's pretty hard to ignore leadership at the largest maintained system in the nation when things are going as wrong as they have been here).
We were and often are to loud...and I think that you would agree with this in areas that should be regulated as such.
No argument here; just the fact that no initial effort was ever made in many of these areas to properly maintain many of these fast branching out trails or even properly enforce the sport. This would've required a spearheaded effort by orv leadership to raise the massive amounts of cash needed to have properly payed as we went (including fighting the 'spotted owl' crap) and as you know; the term "pay-to-play" has never even crossed their lips to this day.(until increased fees were literally forced on us in places like AZ; where there recently became no 'choice' about supporting the resource or not).
I don't agree with the latter concept; yet I'm all for forcing us to pay through the nose to prevent and make adjustments for the first two.
Why not?
I suppose that it all comes down to exactly who you view as our own worst enemies.
If it's me for speaking my peace regarding orv leadership and their failure to both unite us and earn respect around this country through our willlingness to truly pay our own way in solving these problems with a zero tolerance approach to them....then let the debate begin.
Yet if it's our silent leaders themselves (didn't one major group just try to raise funds with the caveat that they wouldn't approach us for money again right in the middle of all this mess?) that you refer to above....I couldn't agree more.
I'm glad to hear this if you're referring to orv leadership; as I've found few out west willing to turn their focus eastwards for the overall good of the sport...yet many out there expecting all of us back here in the east to donate our first borns to some pretty ill-defined efforts.
As I mentioned earlier, MWQ; we can allow the blame for all of this to fall in the laps of both politicians or the so-called 'greenies' which one would expect that this sport would have eventually encountered anyways.
I'll put the blame on those not obviously posessing the professionalism or smarts to properly navigate us through these obstacles in the first place (using a reputation that was never actually built as a foundation).
I assumed your refering to the "current orv leadership" as the 2 wheeled guys". I have top wonder how many in Mich share your feelings.
BB we have been paying to play in Ca for over 30 years. There has always been more than enough money to take care of the off road needs and STILL there has been enough money for the California gov to steal from. They usually take more than 50% of what was taken in. We pay $6.00 a day and $26.00 every 2 years for registration.. A lot of the trails in the national forrests here have been maintained by the 2 wheeled crowd for over 30 years. Trail maintainence was something the Enduro clubs did to get the "right" to hold a event once a year. Now its something over looked by everyone.
I still think you have to give some credit to the greenies inland closures. But those who scatter trash around, ride unmuffled and or with no safety gear arent helping our cause any.
Sorry for my rambling...and ...I wish I had more time to respond to you but Im headed to get carpal tunnel surgery in a few minutes. Its also going to take me a couple of weeks to be able to respond in here . Be patient and Ill be back to normal soon.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Originally posted by: blackballed
(missed the above earlier....):
Heck, if it isn't DB out there trying to make friends with these doctors on a first-name basis; it's you.
From everybody out here who has enjoyed the time and effort that you've spent simply giving us your opinion; we all hope the surgery went well and godspeed with your recovery. (I'll try and give you some bathroom-grade reading material just as soon as possible).
Good luck!
John
Its OK, its tough to catch everything in here.
I definitely put this off too long. Not really fond of spending time in a Dr's office you know. It was my left hand that took too much abuse using the clutch all those years racing enduros.
I appreciate the kind words BB! img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> The surgery went perfect as far as I can tell. The hand now feels like it has a slight sprain. The good news is my hand hasnt gone numb since the night before the surgery. I have been waking up with a numb aching hand for over 10 years. Its nice to sleep thru the nite for a change. I cant wait to see how it is to ride without slowing down to shake my left hand(to relieve the numbness while riding) every 5 minutes or so.
Thanks BB! Its going great so far.
Ill respond to the bathroom reading material in a few days when i get the time.
Posted by: DeeDawg
Originally posted by 400CatDriver:
stop buying that cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart
I agree - perhaps the socialists/democrats/progressives can make that happen by doubling our taxes to fight this injustice and global warming at the same time. But that would be an affront to their communist friends in china, so that will never happen. Of course, as a greedy white heterosexual right wing male I'm the most evil creature on earth so my opinion doesn't count for them anyway.
QUOTE FOR TODAY:
I wish Hillary would have married OJ
Posted by: WoodRat
This topic sure lends itself to lengthy comments doesn't it?
I'm not much of an activist, so I admit not beating the drum so loudly in the promotion of off-road ATV use. But I do take seriously being a good citizen in the course of ATV riding here in Oregon, though mine is a utility quad that I use more on our own property than on public lands. My feeling is that for us non-activist types maybe it's enough just riding with courtesy, following the rules when practical, and being prepared to lend assistance to fellow riders in need. By and large this is what I see happening, and this in itself is doing something positive in the sport even though it's relatively passive.
I don't see the big dark curtain coming down, though I've certainly seen posts of users, even right here in Oregon, that are pretty gloomy. Everyone's entitled to their own stupid opinion myself included.
Funds for the promotion of ATV use on public lands in Oregon are generated from the permit stickers; $10 per vehicle for a two-year period. Though some of this money is eaten up in administrative costs, expenditure on actual trail development is evident. The Prospect OHV Trail System in the High Cascades is just one example. There are a lot of places to ride even outside the many designated OHV areas. Here, and if I'm not mistaken in many other states as well, one can ride an ATV on any unpaved single-lane forest road on public land, such as on Forest Service or BLM lands, except in national parks.
Across the nation I suppose the reality lies somewhere between our situation here in Oregon and that in New Jersey. Is it true there is actually no legal place to ride an ATV on public lands in New Jersey as someone said in this forum? If so, I would just have to say you pick your poison if you live there and buy an ATV. It wouldn't make sense to me.
I will conclude by acknowledging there is a movement out there which would shut us out of public lands, all they can piece by piece, but this isn't anything new. And I don't see the end just around the corner as some in the other extreme claim.
ATV use continues grow, yes part of the problem, but so long as the vast majority of people riding ATVs on public lands do it as good citizens and respect the environment, I think we'll always have places to ride. Anyway, it's our land, and more are arriving in our camp all the time.
Posted by: TacticZero
if not it might be found under "gay porn"
Posted by: KINGQUAD450
Originally posted by: 76diesel
I'm sorry to say time is running out for off roading. Al Gore's film on global warming has become the only scientific evidence the environmental wacko's need to end off roading and maybe even NASCAR racing.
The Dems already have the congress, if they get the white house too just who is going to stop them? The republicans are nothing but a bunch of wimps, they will never stop the crazy left. We are screwed!
They will have a rough road to hoe to get rid of all off road sports weather it be racing or tractor pulling. I think that would even have to include golf carts unless they went to all battery operated
Posted by: 76diesel
I'm sorry to say time is running out for off roading. Al Gore's film on global warming has become the only scientific evidence the environmental wacko's need to end off roading and maybe even NASCAR racing.
The Dems already have the congress, if they get the white house too just who is going to stop them? The republicans are nothing but a bunch of wimps, they will never stop the crazy left. We are screwed!
