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Posted by: enFORCER
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Originally posted by: Deeplaker60
I just had a close call on the trail, thanks to a 4-wheeler. I was going about 60 mph on my snowmobile, which is not particularly fast for that machine, when I suddenly hit ruts in the snow dug by a four wheeler. I was on a railroad bed and was darn near thrown down a steep embankment alongside the trail. I recovered and went around a sharp turn at a much slower speed and nearly ran up the tail pipe of a 4-wheeler that was chugging along the trail. Darn it! We had one good week of snow and the trail gets devastated by 4-wheelers.
Keep those 4-wheelers in the barn when there?s snow on the trail. I ride both a 4-wheeler (when there isn?t any snow) and a snowmobile, but I can tell you I keep a low profile about my 4-wheeler when around snowmobilers. I?ve heard so many snowmobilers cursing 4-wheelers, and they are vehement! I can assure you that we atv?er don?t need another group hating us. In our area, there are so few days of the winter when the trails have enough snow for snowmobiling. Leave your atv?s at home on those days. Snowmobile registrations still pay for about half the trail costs, so give them a few days to ride.
Ah, would you like some cheese with your whine? Ya know where I ride there are dirt bikes, ATV's and snowmobiles.
And a you know what, the dirt bikes often are the one's making the ruts on the trails, but I rarely hear anyone complain because people like you that bitch and moan are the one's who gets the trails closed down for everyone. You need to stop thinking that when it snows people should put there ATV's away. Do you even know what ATV stand for?
Posted by: enFORCER
Quote
Originally posted by: Deeplaker60
Hey 800twinEFI--are you some sort of politician? You seem to be the way you quote people out of context
He didn't quote you out of context. LOL, that's the first paragraph on your photo page.
Posted by: ss97
Where I live there are a lot of Sled-Heads who hate ATVers........
But I've had a lot of them say "don't worry, you are OK because you ride a sport machine"....... They don't often see a 2wd quad out there and when they do they often have skies up front and don't destroy the trails.
It's the 4x4's they hate for churning up the trails. I don't ride Sleds, don't really like them much. But I won't go out on trails in the snow that I know the Sleds use. I don't want to mess of their riding experience because to them and ATV is just in the way. They are too slow, and they destroy the trails. Considering that they might only get nice trails once or twice a year we should give them some respect and let them have their space.
I know my Father had to ban some of this neighbors from riding their big UTES on his trails they they are muddy. Last spring a whole crew of them went out and just destroyed the trails for us 2wd guys. They rutted the hills so bad that none of the 2wd guys could get up them, so I can understand how the Sledders feel when the trails are wrecked.
And last summer after some heavy rains two morons trespassed onto our MX track with 4x4s and totally messed up the track. We spent a week fixing all the jumps and rebuilding the whoops. Of course that was a private land issue. The two riders said they were sorry and didn't see the posted signs. They claimed they thought they were still on the property next to ours where they had permission to ride. An honest enough mistake I suppose, and we were more pissed they screwed up the track than the fact that they were on it in the first place.....
Posted by: Deeplaker60
I just had a close call on the trail, thanks to a 4-wheeler. I was going about 60 mph on my snowmobile, which is not particularly fast for that machine, when I suddenly hit ruts in the snow dug by a four wheeler. I was on a railroad bed and was darn near thrown down a steep embankment alongside the trail. I recovered and went around a sharp turn at a much slower speed and nearly ran up the tail pipe of a 4-wheeler that was chugging along the trail. Darn it! We had one good week of snow and the trail gets devastated by 4-wheelers.
Keep those 4-wheelers in the barn when there?s snow on the trail. I ride both a 4-wheeler (when there isn?t any snow) and a snowmobile, but I can tell you I keep a low profile about my 4-wheeler when around snowmobilers. I?ve heard so many snowmobilers cursing 4-wheelers, and they are vehement! I can assure you that we atv?er don?t need another group hating us. In our area, there are so few days of the winter when the trails have enough snow for snowmobiling. Leave your atv?s at home on those days. Snowmobile registrations still pay for about half the trail costs, so give them a few days to ride.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
My incident happend on the (public) Wild Rivers Trail between Sarona and Spooner WI. I'll cool off about it in a couple of days.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
OK, I'm cooled off a little now. It was a little crazy to make such as posting on an ATV site, but as I said, I ride both an ATV and a snowmobile.
I'm not sure it is totally a matter of sharing the trails, at least not at the same time. Snow is softer than dirt, and therefore gets rutted easier, expecially when the temperature approaches the upper twenties and warmer. Ride your ATV on the soft snow and you've ruined it for snowmobilers. At the very least, you are creating potentially dangerous conditions.
ATVers and snowmobilers should be allies working together to expand trail systems. But, when you go ripping down a trail on your 4-wheeler just after the snowmobile club as paid to groom that trail, you are turning potential allies into enemies.
The best option I can see is to let the snowmobilers have the trails when there is enough snow on the ground. That is only about three months of the year in the snowbellt, tops. There hasn't been a normal winter in years, so the snow season has only been a matter of weeks--days for this year...speaking for this area.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
It looks like attitudes are shaped on this issue by where you are coming from. In snowbelt states, the trail systems were largely developed and built by snowmobilers. They are bound to see things differently than the ATVers who showed up later to enjoy those trails. However, I suspect that most snowmobilers, like myself, now ride ATVs most of the year. Actually, my club is an ATV/Snowmobile organization. We'd like to be able to enjoy both types of machines. While snowmobiles don't affect ATV use of tails, ATVs unfortunately can ruin trails for snowmobiles. I don't think it is "whining" to point that out.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Hey 800twinEFI--are you some sort of politician? You seem to be the way you quote people out of context
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Yeah, but it was all past tense. I said a lot more than that, which totally changed the context from what he gives. I also said, "I went from an ATV hater and mountain biker to someone who put 10 to 20 miles a week on my ATV, and loved it."
Posted by: Deeplaker60
To quote you somewhat out of context: "I'm glad you enjoy the sport and will no longer be interested in ruining it for others."
That goes both ways. My point was that ATVers are ruining trails for snowmobilers, especially when they ride when the temperatures are in the upper twenties and warmer. I ride my ATV on the same trails as my snowmobile, but not when there is snow and would ruin the trails for snowmobilers.
It is important for you to realize that it is not just tree huggers who have problems with ATVs, and if we are going to get more trails for ATVs, that needs to be addressed. In this specific instance, it is snowmobilers and they can hardly be considered to be tree huggers. We can use their help, but that's not going to happen when many ATVers feel its ok to ruin their sport.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Amen!
Posted by: Motorsports
I did not know there were still any shared ATV/Snowmobile trails in MI. IMO if there still are the snowmobile part should be closed to ORV's during winter months. I do not ride the ATV trails in winter when there is a lot of snow.
Why are ORVs not allowed to use snowmobile trails in the summer.
Motorsports
Posted by: squeege
What trail? Around here the snowmobiler's tend to drive on a lot of private property(including ours)......if it was public-trails, atvs should remain considerate, however private land is another thing.
Posted by: GixerStyle
Its too bad it took skill to ride through the obstacle that the 4wheeler created.
If it pleases the sledders, we could suggest nice easy flat terrain where riding wouldn't be too difficult.
Or, learn how to ride through it and get over it.
Posted by: west350bruin
In Mass they have a SAM (snow mobilers association of Mass) pass for snowmobile trails. I honor those trails along with private property signs (posted by land owners only ) If heard some stories of quads broken down on the SAM trails and when the operator went back, his quad was gone or destroyed. I can understand getting mad because an atv is on a sled trail, but that is no reason to destroy someones property..............anyhow a public trail is fair for anyone to ride. I would be pissed if someone was going 60 on a trail I ride on, sled or not, thats too fast when most trails barely fit 2 quads on em....
Posted by: 800TwinEFI
I hate to say it Deeplaker, but your profile speaks volumes:
"I hated ATV's, especially when they rutted up the trail where I liked to ride my mountain bike. When I'd see a hillside with ATV ruts along a highway, I'd stop my car and take a photo to add to a file I had intended to use to fight any expansion of ATV trails in my area."
I don't think anything else needs said.
Posted by: 800TwinEFI
I'm not a politician at all. As pointed out, I justed quoted you. Perhaps you don't see the irony, but I would compare this to Ted Nugent showing up at a world wildlife fund benefit. If you have turned over a new leaf, great. I'm glad you enjoy the sport and will no longer be interested in ruining it for others.
You see, when people try and tell me, or anybody for that matter, how they can and can't use public lands (that really belong to everyone), it's something I really resent deeply. I'm a very courteous rider. Mainly, sticking to forest service roads when riding on public lands. I'll go by the back packing tree hugging greenie at like 5 mph as to not dust him. I'm friendly. I wave. He just gives me his usual dirty look, even though I'm not going riding through streams and I'm treating him with nothing but good will. And I have realized I just can't win with these people. I get the same response from them when I ride on private land that I have paid money to be on and have a permit for.
And what is even more amusing, is here where I live, the public lands are managed in a very effective manner. Tree huggers have their trails. Jeeps have their trails. ATVs have their trails and so on. ATV trails may merge with motorcycle trails...but not tree hugger trails. But guess who thinks they get to go everywhere? The tree huggers. If I showed the same disregard for the rules, they would call the ranger in a heartbeat. And I really don't care they are on the ATV trails. The thing that just frustrates me is they have the gall to say I shouldn't be on that trail that is designated for ATV use.
So needless to say, I hate tree huggers. And I'll fight them tooth and nail for people to be able to use public lands for this sport. If you want to call me a politician because of it, I could really care less. Matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that if you care about this sport at all, and are paying attention at all, you have to be involved at some level in a political sense because it has indeed become a political issue thanks to people who think they have a right to dictate how everyone uses the land that belongs to us all.
Lastly, I got way off topic and I'll be the first to admit I can get a bit crazy about this subject. This was about sleds and ATVs. You see, it's really not a darn ATV or darn sledder issue. It's a matter of how your public lands are or are not managed for this activity. And how it needs to be and for both people to go out and have a good time. And if that was being done, and you still hit those ruts because somebody doesn't respect the rules, then I'll be the first to agree with you. But it sounds like it's anybodys game and you can't complain about people playing when thats the case.
Posted by: 800TwinEFI
I think some common courtesy to the snowmobilers is just a matter of being a good citizen. But the problem is not the ATV rider. It is the forest service. It is their responsibility to manage those public lands. All they have to designate areas for certain uses only and your problem is gone. ATVs only this way. Snowmobiles only this way. A couple of signs and your good to go. Then of course, in the spring those snowmobile signs come down. It really is that simple. And if you catch ATVs on snowmobile only trails or vice versa, the ranger fines the hell out of those people. Good management. That is all that is required. I have it where I live. The rangers put up signs designating what the trail is for. I obey the signs, respect the ranger and everybody is happy. With the exception of the tree hugger of course. Who is never happy.
Of course, when they do this, the forest service has a new round of complaints because this person cant' go here or there. And yes. That is not pleasant. I have had some of my favorite trails closed off recently to foot traffic only. Those are the breaks and I just suck it up and deal with it. For now. I also make donations to my local ATV clubs who fight to keep trails open for us.
Posted by: 800TwinEFI
Interesting point on the horses. I can't honestly complain myself, but I can see how it could be a issue. I own proprety myself, but have had no problems with horses. But in regards to the tree huggers, if a person just goes back and examines the historical roots of some of the major forces in the environmental movements, it is quite educational. And when I say educational, I mean in what we ourselves are doing wrong.
I myself think that the World Wildlife Fund is a very powerful force. Or say the Sierra Club.
But they didn't get that way just by having grassroots clubs where people went out and took action. The way they became a force to be reckoned with was simple. It was through money. You see, they solicit donations on a regular basis from their members. Sort of like public television. And with that money, they get lawyers and they litigate their way to their goals. However, we in the ATV world haven't come to this realization yet. The enemy has. But we are still under the impression that if we play the role of good citizens that all will work out. This makes the assumption however, that our opposition is composed of rational people. It is not, thus this logic is not entirely effective. Helpful. Gains us some ground. But at the end of the day, if we face stiff enough opposition, we lose the battle.
What we really need, is something similar to the NRA but for ATVs. And people need to be willing to reach into their wallets so that we can have lobbyists and we can become a force to be reckoned with. Until we hit that type of level, we will always lose.
Look at this way (those of you who are gun owners will relate here)....if we have trouble keeping our second amendment to the constitution rights in tact, why in the world would we think we can keep public lands open to our sport? One thing is part of the fabric of our country and is under constant fire. But it has groups to defend it. Another is under constant fire, but has no real powerful force to protect it. If something is not done of this calibur, you will eventually lose your ability to ride ATVs or motorcycles on public lands. Count on it.
That land that they will ban us from using the way we would like to is at some level, your land too as a citizen of that state or as a citizen of this country. And no special interest group has a right to ban you from using it in a reasonable manner. They are only able to do so because they have taken the necessary steps to accomplish their goal. We need to do the same.
Posted by: kickass210
smooth trails who wants that? well i'm guessing ur riding a multi use trail for both machines if u want no ruts go to a all snowmobile place to ride. where i live in new england i feel bad for the sledders for the bad winters and the people who don't give em space. i tried sledding this yr , and sure is fun, but the ruts from atv's did'nt bother me. thats part of being outside offroad.
Posted by: gas300
I had a close call on a trail ,a snowmobile and my swap-buggy in fl:
Posted by: ctateusa1
I have never rode a snowmobile, I love my quad and I ride mine in the snow, just not enough of it this year yet. Give respect to everyone on the trail wheather on a snowmobile, quad, dirt bike, or walking, public land is public land, share and share alike.
Everyone can act like an idiot(some dont act, they just are) it doenst have any rule to just atvers.
Posted by: jkane13
Those darn snowmobilers! They think they rule the trails. They feel that only they should be allowed on them. They have no consideration for sharing the trails with others. They go way too fast and are very dangerous. They should be banned!
Sound familiar? Don't bash someone elses sport because it doesn't fit nicely in your perfect closed up personalized world. There is plenty of room for all of us. Slow down. 60 MPH is too fast. Even if your sled can do it, that doesn't make it the right speed for a public trail.
Posted by: stemcell700
No snowmobiles down here, but we do unfortunately have to share with two groups, the tresspassing, four hooved, I can go anywhere I want crapping everywhere horsebackriders,(have you ever seen how much damage a hooved animal does to the land?) and hunting clubs. Yes, now I know that horses are the original atv's, and they need to ride too, but the average owner, around here, seems to think that since they don't make any real noise and don't polutte the environment, they can go anywhere they want, even trespass. The hunt clubs on the other hand controll a vast majority of the land around here, once again, they need it due to the rise of posted land and sub-deveopments rising, majority of them own and use atv's and will gladly join you for a ride in another area that you have access to, but don't even think about asking them to ride on their land! It has even been proposed to them to join the club and maintain the trails,build bridges,food plots, new trails and so forth. Some day I included am going to have to learn that we must all get along the best we can and share our resources,skills,connections and lands, before the tree huggers do. They close down places to ride walk and enjoy not realizing that they are doing more harm than good. Around here if a trail goes bad and cannot be maintaned any longer, it gets blocked off and has trees given by the Dept. of Forestry, planted there, the trail is bypassed. when treehugger closes down to all or just to foot traffic places, they are too lazy to do anything with it besides sell it for a profit, to a developer, and start bitching all over again about how everyone else is abusing""their land". and they have no where to watch the birdies! Never mind the fact that they won't even think about opening up ditches, in sted they will throw or cut trees across a stream or ditch screwing up the whole habitat around the stream, just so they won't get there Eddie Bauer boots muddy. They will build little benches or bird houses or any other piece of "furniture" out of salt-treated lumber (which contains a poison known as Arsonic) and think it so cute when the little squirrel,beavers,chipmunks,woodpeckers start chewing on the wood. Then when they start dying or having health issues, they will blame it a farmer, a hunt club, or pollution from atv's. We all have to get along, share the road, have respect for others, calmly solve trail issues, and keep a tight rope on those tree huggers!
Posted by: TommyA300
I rode motorcycles, 4 wheelers, snow mobiles, tractors and garden lawn mowers. Worked on them all!
I can not whine or take sides for any one particular group.
All can get along like the old cattle and sheep herders did when the war between these two was at its height. Some fellow figured a solution for this since the sheep graze all the way to the root. First send the cattle to graze and move on, then went the sheep to graze following the cattle. Not placing a facsimile on who is who, just relating which is hardest on a trail, or grazing area.
Idealistic as it may seem, I mean really idealistic, what is needed is a multi lane pathway and the respect for the reason for it and apply the golden rule, of golf.
Make a debut your responsible to fill it back in.
Who is going to stop and take out a snow shovel and fill it back with fresh snow? 
Signage on the path designating what to watch for or designating which side each different machine needs to be on.
Since the days of old have passed and there is more population on both machines rules have to be made and obeyed. Both can still have the same privileges on the same path just have to decide how this is to be accomplished.
When random riding one should know their path, hitting a dirt grove on a snow mobile is not a blessing it is a curse, also puts a ware on the blade guides. The machine did not make the grove; it is the person that is riding it. Usually if the grove was made the next would follow it.
Human nature and respect, does not come freely, or given wisely.
Trail riding, 60 mile an hour is a common and natural speed for a snow mobile. 30 to 40 is common and natural for a vehicle with wheels.
It is natural for a person that rides them all to see how fast the machine can do! It is in our blood. When entering a turn and you do not know what is on the other side the rule is to slow to a safer speed. But we all would like to test that side slide into a turn just for the rush and the exhilarating feel to power slide out of a turn.
Instead of expending our energy bickering, we all should expend our energy pool ideas so all sports can be enjoyed in time.
Posted by: TommyA300
Yep that is what is happening there are a few that mess things up even if they did not see the signs they still trashed a known track, undeniable to say they did not know it was a track, just by looking at it. BR> That is human nature, sometimes you have people that are responsable and some that fling it at the moment of excitement without thinking of the next guy.
Unconditional riding is becoming the thing of the past.
There is a time and place to do the who-ra-ing and there is most of the time where being courtious is the key!
I see your point and it is a very valid point to boot!
How can this message get thru to the untamed character.
If there is a solution it would be the solution for all man kind, and in every issue we face everyday!
4 wheeling is just going to grow logarithmically.
Multiply the number of ATVs being sold each year which I think it is 3% of the previous year and so on and so forth.
Out of that let us assume Instead of 2 you may have 4 then 16 then 64, 128, 256, etc., etc., etc?
Now regulations are needed to harness the untamed.
Anytime regulations are set in stone who is the first to complain, the ones that loved riding unconditionally. Let?s face it when I mount a bike and get the feel of it?s handling,
I just want to pull a donut or two pop wheelies, but the one difference from when I was 16, I find a hidden spot where it is out of the way of everyone.
I was showing off back in those days now it would be a thrill that brings me back to when I was impressing the hot ladies, giving them something to talk about.
...
Posted by: jvanhare
Well if it is a multi-use trail, then you have to expect less than optimal conditions, but there are snowmobile only trails, which are cleared of debris in the fall and groomed by the snowmobile clubs in the winter, mostly by volunteer labor. If the ATV was on a snowmobile only trail then i can fully appreciate his complaint. I ride sleds too, and on a fast wide well groomed trail 60 mph wouldn't really be that fast either. There are sleds fully capable of doing over 100mph, now should they go 100 on trails? Definitely not, as there are too many variables on the trail...other riders, curves, trees, unexpected bumps, deer. Every year there are speed related fatalities with the newer faster better suspension sleds that are available. I noted his in original post, he rides in Wisconsin. I don't know about their trail system, but in Michigan if you ride an ATV on a snowmobile only trail, you will be ticketed. In a lot of places there is a speed limit of 55 mph on the trails, and people have been know to do 5 over, just as they do in cars, figuring they won't be stopped by the DNR with a radar gun for 5 mph over.
Posted by: AVTrider
I also belong to an ATV/Snowmobile club here in MI., because a good portion of the trails in our county are open to ATV's and Snowmobiles. The issue of ATV's vs Snowmobiles on the duel purpose trails has become such a proble here in MI, that certain Townships and Counties have passed laws banning ORV's on the tails from Dec. 1 - May 1. Once again instead of working together to increase use for everyone, groups automatically take sides on who has rights to the trails.
The main area of complaint from sledders is that ORV's only pay $16.25 for a trail sticker and can ride all year. Sleds on the other hand need to buy Registration stickers from the state that cost $22 for three years, plus $25 every Dec. 1 for a trail sticker to ride on the same trails. This additional $25 sticker is supposed to be used to groom and maintain the snowmobile trails in the winter. So after paying to ride on smooth trails, sledders get made when they have to ride on torn up trails.
To save all the fighting this year I bought a (snow) trail sticker and put it on my ATV. When I stop for gas and a sledder gives me a hard time, I point to the trail sticker. Most still don't like it, but with the sticker I mention that I have just as much right to the trail as they do.
Posted by: AVTrider
In Norther lower MI there are still alot of trails that are ORV/Snowmobile trails. Of the 98 miles of snowmobile trails in our county, 41 miles are combination trails. I own 2 sleds and 3 ATV's and the key to making this work is for the operator to use good judgement befor going out on the trails. Example: it is supposed to reach 40 degrees on Saturday, so I would never take my ATV's out this weekend because I know the ATV would go right through the crust and tear things up. Last weekend however temps were in the 20's and the trails were hard packed and I didn't leave a mark with the quad. If we had got more than 1" of snow at a time I would have road my sled alot more this winter, but low snow amounts and warm temps have made things better for ATVing.
