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Posted by: JohnO
Some years ago, I used to let some of the locals ride my trails. Pretty challenging trails, lots of fun. But... they told their friends, who told their frends, and pretty soon I have total strangers tearing the place up, leaving trash, causing erosion, and waking me up with loud mufflers.
Didn't have much choice. Gate got locked, signs went up, and a couple of arrogant types that cut the chain on the gate got busted. It is ironic that you work hard to get your own piece of land, and then you have to defend it from everyone else who wants to come in and use it.
As for the liability aspect - it is very real, especially in this day of hungry lawyers. Your friends might not sue you, but their friends that don't know you might. You can try release forms, but they can still sue, and you still have to hire a lawyer to defend yourself. It's unfortunate that so many headaches arise from just wanting to do something nice and share the wealth, but there you have it. Just not worth the trouble.
Posted by: blackballed
Get Muddy4Life to tell you how he has trained kids/adults with liability concerns for years.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I don't think there is going to be a one size fits all answer on this subject. Each state has it's own statutes, and it's own laws to enforce. They may be similar, but they are all under the direct control of your state. I recommend ot everyone that they 1) Contact their state commision that handles insurance. 2) Research what the laws in their state say. Your local court house is a good place to start. Sometimes they can be very helpful. 3) Contact your local reps for several of the national ATV safety organizations. They are out there. Look for them. All have lawyers on their state boards to answer these types of quesitons. All that the the majority of laymen can talk about is in general terms and that is not always correct so do your homework.
I DO know that you might try contracting with a local riding club, and making sure the contract spells out they are required to have insurance etc. And absolve you of liability. Also, if you do go with a waiver, the number one big thing is to spell out in writing that riding ATV's is dangerous, and although you are giving them permission to ride, the responsibility still lays on their shoulders.
No matter what, you can still get sued I am afraid. The Blue Ribbon coalition has some info you might find interesting. Check it out. They may be able to suggest something. I know they were workingon legislation that relieves you from liabiliity. In WV, on the Hatfield/McCoy, the majority of trails are on private land, and the State has accepted responsibility in return for allowing the land ot be used.. it may also be a possible solution.
Posted by: 2TV
I have a waiver form that everybody must sign (even relatives) before they are allowed to ride on my property. This form was prepared by a lawyer in my state. Also make sure you have adequate property insurance too...
Posted by: NLWarrior01
It's a shame that the legal system has basically become legalized stealing somewhat. Someone gets hurt on your property doing something foolish that they shouldn't have been doing, and they (or their agent) go after you for everything you have or ever will have.
It's an even bigger shame that someone like you can't safely allow a sport to thrive when you have the space available because of the fear of being taken for all you have. I'd love to have that much land myself, and while we're not quite as letigious here in Canada, we're really not that far behind. And who can afford to fence off that much land anyway??
I hope you can find a solution for you and your riding friends to be able to enjoy what you are offering.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
The advice so far has been good. The waivers are ok if it makes everyone involved feel better. It won't help though. You're still going to get sued.
When you allow people to ride on your land you are exposing yourself to risk. If you just allow 2 or three close friends and family members to ride with you and only when you are present then that risk is at one level. If you allow 20 people permission to ride whenever they wish it is another level of risk. If you allow 100 people is is yet another. If you allow everyone....you might as well go hand the deed to the first guy to fall off his wheeler and save the legal hassles.
You also have to realize that if you do allow say 30 people to ride there, that sooner or later that word will get out and you will end up with uninvited guests and trespassing will become an issue. It will become something that will become a never ending plague. Many a well intentioned landowner has wished he had never let a visitor on his land in the first place after seeing the consequences down the road. This could not only be a problem for you, but could become a problem for the landowners with property bordering or near you. This could lead to unintended problems with your neighbors.
You will need a very good liability policy. You're going to want something to protect yourself and your assets. It's going to sound like you're insuring yourself for a shockingly high amount (it could very well be 2 million or 4 million dollars or more depending on your assets) but you must do it given the litigious society we live in. It isn't right and it isn't fair but that is the way it is.
I guess what it comes down to is that you have to be extremely careful about opening up your property to just anyone. Think very carefully and weigh all of the consequences before letting just anyone have access to your property. This goes for riding ATVs as well has hunting and fishing or any other activity. The wisest course of action in my opinion in just to allow a very few trusted close friends and family to ride and if necessary only under your supervision.
It's not fair but that's the way it is. We've got several things working against us. A society slopping over with lawyers and jackpot legal system. An increasingly urbanized landscape with fewer places to operate an ATV freely. Urban and suburban dwellers with ATVs moving to rural areas and not respecting concepts of private property and rural courtesy or etiquette. Makes things difficult.
Posted by: ss97
We have everyone sign a waiver to ride on our property .........
The thing is that the waiver cannot stop anyone from trying to sue you, they can always try.
All the waiver does in protect you in the sense that a judge is likely to toss out the case when it is presented. In most cases as long as the person suing knew they were taking their life into their own hands (by admission in their signature) they won't win.
In our case since we are moving towards opening our land as an ATV Riding Park for the public, we would be subject to even further waivers as well as maintaining a safe and liable riding environment. We will need to inspect the vehicles that people bring as well as the trails on a daily basis to be sure they are safe and well marked.
One word of caution, if you do not know the person ask to see ID to verify the signature is the person. I heard a story of a guy up near Watertown who got sued because a Snowmobile rider lost his leg on his property. The rider signed a fake name on the waiver and on that technicality the judge would not dismiss, the land owner ended up shelling out a good chunk of cash through his insurance.........
Posted by: DeeDawg
Originally posted by ss97: We have everyone sign a waiver to ride on our property .........
The thing is that the waiver cannot stop anyone from trying to sue you, they can always try.
All the waiver does in protect you in the sense that a judge is likely to toss out the case when it is presented. In most cases as long as the person suing knew they were taking their life into their own hands (by admission in their signature) they won't win.
In our case since we are moving towards opening our land as an ATV Riding Park for the public, we would be subject to even further waivers as well as maintaining a safe and liable riding environment. We will need to inspect the vehicles that people bring as well as the trails on a daily basis to be sure they are safe and well marked.
One word of caution, if you do not know the person ask to see ID to verify the signature is the person. I heard a story of a guy up near Watertown who got sued because a Snowmobile rider lost his leg on his property. The rider signed a fake name on the waiver and on that technicality the judge would not dismiss, the land owner ended up shelling out a good chunk of cash through his insurance.........
I think the key take away here is his insurance paid.....don't be caught without it......
Posted by: georged
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Originally posted by: eduardobibm
I recently moved to Orange County NY, and between my father, sister and I, we have about 62 acres of property of which to ride on. More if you include my neighbor who has given me permission to ride a section of his property. It's not a huge amount, but in lower NYS, as I'm certain you are all aware, riding land is difficult to come by. Anyway, my question is I want to allow people to ride my property, but am concerned of what liability I may be openning up myself to. I recently heard a horror story of a man who after graciously allowing persons to hunt on his property got sued when one man accidently shot another.
I don't know NY laws, but where I live if you invite them to ride on your land, or don't properly post your land to keep people aware they're trespassing and breaking the law by riding on your land, you're taking responsibility for their welfare. Even having invited riders sign waivers indemnifying you means little when someone sues you for injuries suffered from 'your' negligence in maintaining your property. While good intent is a warm and fuzzy feeling, shark lawyers going after you, your property and insurance is the reality of little Johnnie or a family breadwinner ending up crippled or brain dead riding on your property.
It's a simple matter to have excess liability added to your insurance coverage for surprisingly little money ($2M costs me about $450/yr), but be certain it doesn't exclude unlicensed motor vehicle activity (ATVs/dirt bikes/sand rails) or persons unintentionally endangering themselves while engaged in leisure activities of a dangerous nature. I strongly recommend you sit down with your regular lawyer and explain your concerns to him/her for a written opinion and make your decision based on sound legal advice. The US is the most litigious country on the planet and when seriously injured people look to the most convenient pocket for compensation it could be yours.
Posted by: georged
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Originally posted by: ajd187
I have also heard that if your health insurance pays for your medical bills that the insurance company can go after the landowner to recoup costs. Not sure how true it is but that would certainly render any waiver null and void.
That's correct about any insurer seeking to recoup losses (such as medical bills) from the source of supposed negligence, the landowner and/or his/her insurer. Again, seek reputable legal counsel for any circumstance presenting potential litigation. Many liability insurers have exclusions for motorized accidents unless covered under a specific rider such as in commercial underwriting.
Unless you've been involved in litigation, you can't even begin to believe how fast legal bills accumulate.
Posted by: ajd187
I have also heard that if your health insurance pays for your medical bills that the insurance company can go after the landowner to recoup costs. Not sure how true it is but that would certainly render any waiver null and void.
Posted by: eduardobibm
I recently moved to Orange County NY, and between my father, sister and I, we have about 62 acres of property of which to ride on. More if you include my neighbor who has given me permission to ride a section of his property. It's not a huge amount, but in lower NYS, as I'm certain you are all aware, riding land is difficult to come by. Anyway, my question is I want to allow people to ride my property, but am concerned of what liability I may be openning up myself to. I recently heard a horror story of a man who after graciously allowing persons to hunt on his property got sued when one man accidently shot another.
Posted by: eduardobibm
Tx, what I am finding out is that they're are alot of "get of my land" nazis around me. I don't want to be like that, I want to allow passage through, but I also don't want to make my family liable.
Posted by: eduardobibm
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Very helpful.
Posted by: squeege
Good question..I wish I could help
I do know that a few lawyers are registered on here(they could fill you in).......good luck
Posted by: raptorSE
i recently got hurt in a state orv park. Yes my insurance asked if they could blame or collect from somebody ...i said no i was the f'in idiot that wrecked. Only a true **** of a family would sue... this is why you have medical insurance and way you GET INSURANCE and thats full coverage. If some insurance companies seen how others ride i bet insurance wouldnt cover most poeple
as for land for others to ride on I would love to do this but liability is to high get one idiot with a good lawyer youll lose your land just because he thought he could jump over a creek and railed into a tree or something. You find retards all over the place......5-7 drag racing and somebody decides to drive across the strip. or that 5 year old that dont know better
Posted by: jkane13
I say rough up some dirt about 3 feet by 7 feet in size at the start of the trails. Place a sign there marking the spot as the final resting place of the last person who did something stupid and then suggested that suing the land owner over it was a good idea.
Posted by: JustRandy
Well, so, what is the answer??? If my long-time friends can be trusted not to sue, but their insurance companies can't, should I not let them ride on my land anymore? On memorial day there must have been 5 or 6 kids zippin around on quads at any given time. No one person can watch that many kids on 14 acres of trails. Even if you could, all you could do is watch something happen to them. Not like you could hurry up n move a tree out of the way. They have helmets, the quads are brand new, the parents are on the property and there are no hiden dangers because I patrol the trails removing fallen branches etc. It would seem to me that I am just as liable for personal injury on my land as the state is on its roads. If you run off the road and hit a tree, I don't think you will do well suing the state.
Surely there must be some documentation putting the burden of inspection and liability on the parent and/or theirself. Although I do own the land, I would no longer be responsible for inspecting and maintaining it (for the undersigned's sake). Furthermore, the parent is not an agent or employee of mine. He is also not a representative. Therefore, how could I be held responsible? The only thing I can see is that the insurance company might say the parent does not know how to properly evaluate my property and I should have known that. So now, do parents have to be certified trail inspectors and provide me documentation to show that??? Who would do the certification??? This is insane.
