ATV Connection Magazine

Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?

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Posted by: CTATV

theres been a lot written I didnt have time to read it. my main theory of why people get hurt on ATVs so much more than on Dirtbikes when the relative idea is the same riding trails through the woods, in the dunes, etc... is because the 4 wheels cause people to underestimate the skill and balance required to maintain proper control. People see a dirtbike and know they can fall and crash when they see a quad the corelate it to a car being on 4 wheels and think if I can drive a car well then I can just hop on any ATV and drive it well too Its the same thing. That is so far from the truth. anybody who has ridden dirtbikes or snowmobiles or trikes in the past is likely to know this and have respect for ATVs ability to harm if you dont know what your doing but the way ATVs are pushed to expand markets to people who arent already gearheads or offroaders because they dont require balance is causing a large flow of inexperienced kids and parents to the sport. I used to talk to friends parents about riding and they would say how they would never want their little kid on a dirtbike its dangerous but an ATV they would let their kids ride. I feel soo the opposet. I rode only dirtbikes until I turned about 12 or 14 and already had learned a respect for machines before i started riding ATVs. Granted you may fall more on a 2 wheeler as a kid but the falls are really not so different from a kid falling on a bike and I didnt have any major injuries. If a kid flips a quad they can be pinned or seriously injured if they havent learned to bail properly. It really all comes down to responsibility of parents and people needing to have a greater respect for the danger that can come from uninformed riding of ATVs

Posted by: 54warrior

Just my 2 cents:

There are idiots everywhere, all you have to do is look around. Some of them are riding fourwheelers. Quads are not unsafe. It's the idiots who get control of them that are unsafe. It's like the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Same holds true for atv's. There is no clear cut, easy answer to all this madness. No matter what you do, there are still law breakers out there and people with no common sense.

My view on Age Requirements: they stink. I am a perfect example of why they do not work. When I was 14, I was 6'3" tall, 220 lbs. How can they expect any 14 year old that size to ride a 90cc ATV? That is why my father purchased the quad in his name even though I was paying for it.

It's also a shame that this country has forgotten that ACCIDENTS DO HAPPEN!!!

Posted by: 54warrior

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Originally posted by: EEResQ
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"What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"
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Yes, accidents do happen. However, a mother placing a 2-year-old toddler on an ATV designed for ages 6 to 12 year-olds, resulting in the DEATH of that 2-year-old is NO ACCIDENT. However, it is an ACT OF NEGLIGENCE resulting in DEATH; ie: "NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE."

Unfortunately, since the beginning of 2007 we've had at least 6 examples of negligence resulting in serious injuries or deaths of children on ATV's. You are correct, the ATV did not kill the child. The negligent adult killed the child.



I understand completely what your saying and I agree with that 100%, I guess I should have conveyed my point better, because I feel exactly the same way. There is a difference between an accident and downright negligence.

People have to understand that when they ride one of these things, there is an inherited risk involved with that. For example, several years ago, I was on a track riding (I'm not a track rider) I ended up flipping the quad forward on top of me after hitting a tabletop. I seperated my shoulder. This is what I would define as an accident. I was aware of the risk that was involved and was prepared to deal with the outcome of taking that risk. Other's just don't realize that.

ATV's, Motorcycle's, Cars, Trucks: they are all the same when put into the hands of the wrong people who are either not educated or are just plain stupid. Common sense goes a long way when owning one of these things. Certain people just can't comprehend either 1)their own limits, 2)their machines limits, or 3)a combination of both

I am 24 years old. I got my first motorcycle at age 10. I had 3 motorcycles before I got my new 96 Warrior at age 14. I've never attended any safety training courses or anything like that, yet I would consider myself a "safe" rider, who has common sense and respect for my machine. I guess you could technically consider me as "uneducated", but years of riding, practicing the skill of riding a quad have enabled me to understand both my limits and my quads limits.

The incident that you cited, regarding the mother with the 2 year old, is a prime example for lack of common sense. There are no rules or laws that could have prevented that from happening.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Sorry,
but I just joined in this forum and did NOT read everything, so if I repeat something already discussed, please forgive me.

First and foremost, the ASI cirriculum of ATV safety training does NOT work for our youth because instructors are NOT allowed to train any youth OUTSIDE of the manufactures AGE/CC guidlines as discribed below,

6-11 yrs old---69cc or less
12-15 yrs old---not over 90cc

If the youth coming to an ASI training course is not riding within the above AGE/CC guidelines[hardly any are], than they CANNOT be trained thru the ATV Safety Institute.I know, I've done this ASI safety course for years until I got SO frustrated with it last year, that I quit.

I have also been directing the Michigan ATV Safety Assoc [ www.michatv.com ] and DO train youth on ATVs that are OUTSIDE of the manufactures AGE/CC recommendations as long as the youth properly fits the ATV and the youth indicates competent motor skills while training. Just like Dragginbutt, for the most part, these guidelines are absolutley redicules and very outdated.

I also agree that MANDIDTORY ATV safety training for EVERYONE, at least once in their lifetime,regardless of age. This brings me to the NEXT problem.---THERE ARE TOO MANY IDOIT INSTRUCTORS that are NOT qualified to instruct these safety classes. [at least in MICHIGAN]

Here in Michigan, if you are ANY TYPE of Law Enforcement Officer, than you are also a certified and licensed ATV safety Instructor. No training-- NO ATV riding experience--just teach the darn class on the merit of your police officer badge.You can get your instructors license just because your a cop,and nothing else.

I've been fighting these classes tooth and nail since our Department of Natural Resources took the ATV safety program away form the Department of Education in October of 2003.Currently we have about 500 LEO officers that charge a fee to take the safety course, give a test, and hand out certificates to your kids.

I've sat thru some of these safety classes and let me tell you, the owners manaul to your kids ATV has more useful information in it than what these guys teach your kids.

And they get PAID for it!

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

400ex,
nice post my friend. To satisfy my one curosity, I actually went as a STUDENT to a few of these safety classes taught by some of Michigans's finest in Blue uniforms [LEO officers]. I went armed with questions that SHOULD be asked by concerned riders wanting to get the most they can from such a class.This 24 yr old overweight female Sheriff was instructing. She was SO bad at answering my questions, she would actually try and BS her way thru some questions or tell me to call her boss and ask him the same question. I politely told her that I did'nt pay my tuition for this class just to have to turn around and have to ask her BOSS the same questions again.I also contacted the Michigan Department of Natural Resources and demanded an explanation. As of today, we still have not re-trained these 500 Instructors that were licensed under the DNR and have these same cops ROBBING our Off Road Vehicle training funds to get paid to instruct one of these classes.

Im as about as upset as one can be. These cops dont even own or ride a dirtbike or ATV, most may have NEVER rode one either. WHY even make a law for mandidtory training IF the responsable parties dont care WHO they license to instruct?

I went thru the proper channels to become a PROPERLY LICENSED INSTRUCTOR many years ago.I have personally trained 1000s of youth and parents. I also went thru a mandidtory criminal background check, they finger printed me, pre-screened me over the phone for qualifications,drug checked me, and sent me to the Honda Tech Center for 4 days of eight hour instructor prep classes,all while under the direct supervisoin of a Cheif Instructor.

I take offense to ANYONE that is just handed a license to instruct any safety class without the proper credentials to do so.The DNR would not like someone handing me over a DNR Officers license without the proper credentials or training, and I dont care for what they've done to the Off Road Vehicle safety classes either.

Our KIDS and PARENTS are suffering in the end!

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Allready ONE UP on you my friend. Not only am I VERY involved in changing what is wrong with the ATV safety program, I am also one of the main characters involved in the discussions to set up an Academy to train these 500 officers. We have had private discussions with the DNR for at least 3 years now,but they keep hiring more of their LEO buddies that are not qualified to instruct.This really shakes me up. What the DNR is doing is to try and make training a simplified program with little/no benefits for the operator or parents,at the sametime, give the dollars collected for this training fund, to their LEO buddies.

Our last discussions involving this Academy was in Nov of 2006. I think I need to ruffle some more feathers after Easter.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I enjoy the luxury of auto trans-Engine braking-4x4-winches-agressive tires-high ground clearance ect ect ect---------just the same way that I enjoy my cars and pickup trucks fully loaded with features.

WHY do I have to not have the features that I like because some idiot dont excercise common sense when getting on an ATV? Besides, there are many features on an ATV that actually make them safer to ride vs not having them.

Do we also take air bags out of our vehicles to protect idiots from themselves? I dont think so.

EDUCATION is the KEY WORD HERE. I have been a proponent of ORV safety training for EVERY PERSON who owns any type of ORV under the age of 18. And if you are over 18, you MUST have to go to a training course at least once.

Next thing we must do is to get rid of these idiot instructors teaching these safety courses and get experienced and properly trained instructors to do this job. There is no sense in making mandidtory ORV training IF we are going to use BOZO's as instructors.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I COULD'NT disagree MORE on the bike vs ATV safety thing.

Im 50 years old and have been on Dirtbikes and 3-4 wheelers since I was 10 yrs old. Parents often ask me [im a ORV safety Director/Instructor] what is the safest ORV to start their kids out on,Dirt bike or 4 wheeler?

I ask you guys one thing? What ever happend to teaching your young kids PREVENTION of a mishap from happening in the first place?SURE an ATV MIGHT hurt more than a bike if it wound up on TOP of your kid,HOWEVER, good parenting and good visual supervision while operating /could/should prevent this from happpening in the first place.

Dirt bikes have HORRILBE STEERING/HANDLING characteristics in the sand[especially for youth], they have only two wheels and are far less stable than having 4 wheels planted under your kids. ATVs can be used on a year around basis and are more stable in the snow/sand.

I teach my parents that THEY are the folks that are ultimately responsable for the safe/responsable use of WHATEVER type of Off Road Vehicle their kids operate and I also speak alot on how to PREVENT mishaps from happening in the first place.

Yah,it may hurt more to get pinned under an ATV vs getting pinned under a dirtbike. Just the same, it could also hurt/injure you more to get into an automobile accident with a smaller car vs a larger car.You dont see many folks getting rid of their small cars because of this.

Its all about educating/supervising our kids to help prevent accidents.


Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

People have been getting hurt when they crash on dirt bikes for years, but the numbers and severity of injuries are very different.END OF QUOTE-----

One big reason for the above quote is because ATV use out numbers dirt bike use by about 4-1 in the USA and that number continues to grow bigger with each passing year.

I REFUSE to blame the stupidity and ignorance of ANY operator on an ATV.. With that said, I EDUCATE my parents and youth on safe/responsable use of ANY type of ORV they choose to ride,and they darn well know the concequences of arrogant/stupid riding.


Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I have usually owned the biggest Utility 4x4 on the market ever since I switched over from 3 wheelers in 1986,over to 4x4 ATVs.. I currently own a 2 seater 800 Can Am. This SHOULD be my last 4x4 ATV for a very long time.

WHY you ask the 800? Well for starters, this is the first 4x4 ATV I've owned that I felt did NOT need more engine. Granted, I agree that in MOST circumstances, anything over a 500cc engine is NOT needed. HOWEVER, let me tell you about the time I had to TOW my friends 500cc 4x4 AC for 13 miles thru various terrain which also had serious mudpit and hill climbs that we had to conquer to make it back to the parking lot. The 650cc engine on the Rincon really struggled in certain areas of this tow. The single cyclinder engine was really struggling and ran HOT to get us thru certain areas to. An ATV with a twin engine would have REALLY helpd out in this particular situation [not necessarily a 800 either]...I have never had my 800 past 50 mph and more than likely never will,BUT it sure is nice knowing that I have ALL the power plant under me that I will EVER need if the occassion should ever arise again. I have pulled out many other 4x4 ATVs with the power plant of the 800 and also pulled folks back to the parking lot in the event of a break down, and the 800 does not even know it is working.

Keep in mind that I am also a very experienced rider. I would not recommend an 800 for an in-experienced operator.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Mudpits on a MARKED and posted OPEN Off Road Vehicle trail should be EXCLUDED from he enviro wacko's list of damage to land IMO. ORVs were not meant to be operated on a paved Roadway/Highway, they are Off Road Vehicles and will create some enviro damage, thats their nature and why we pay 16.25 per ORV sticker here in Michigan to ride. We have already been thru the BS in Michigan with these enviro folks that hope to close us down.

If its a mudpit or Hill ON the marked ORV trail, you should have the priveledge to play in it IMO without a issue from the enviro wacko's.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

DB,
your name is not tarnish in the least.

#1 Most of us that been on the Connection for awhile, know your record for safety concerning our kids and Off Road products.

#2 One only needs to see WHO [BB] is making these grossly mis-lead statements and concider the voice behind the source.

Dont get your blood pressure up over some useless hot bag of air that has very little facts to support most anything that he states in his posts. This guy would be able to find fault with God if you allowed him to.

Just keep being YOU and dont let the BB stuff get to you..95% of the folks that know him, understand that he adds NOTHING but sarcasm/critisizm to our sport and does absolutely NOTHING himself but sit by his PC and whine about what everybody else is doing incorrectly.

Bill

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Well,
where do I start? I'll tell you this much, I certainly AGREE with BB that the training funds have got to stop coming out of our ORV Sticker dollars. When this training was first mandated in Michigan in 1996 for our youth, there was a certain standard that an Instructor HAD to meet in order to even QUALIFY to teach a class. Than, if accepted, he/she took PROPER training [by qualified personal] so they QUAIFIED to teach a LICENSED safety class.

The idea behind using a portion of the ORV sticker fund [1 buck out of each 16.25 sticker fee] was so that PROPERLY TRAINED non profit instructors or properly trained LEO could get into this fund in order to make safety training more afforable for families.I use to be able to request grant funds from this safety fund because I was a non profit Instructor. For example, lets say that the Dept of Education would allow me enough grant funding to train 500 students for the fiscal year. That meant [by LAW] I could NOT charge a fee of over 25 bucks for the first 500 students I trained during that year. Now once I trained 500 students and used up the grant funding, I could than charge a course fee that would cover ALL of my expenses to perform the safety course.[and ONLY at that time]

This formula worked out OK [though we needed more grant $$] until the safety program switched hands from the Dept Of Education, over to the DNR in Oct of 2003 as per Excutive Order of our State's Governor. When the DNR took the program over, they went ahead and HIRED OVER 500 Instructors allmost overnight,and took away the non profit instructors grant funding to do safety classes and gave this funding to the mostly 500 LEO officers that they hired.

Now whats wrong with that,you ask? Well, for starters, the cops the DNR hired to do these safety classes were hired on the mere fact that they wear BADGES and NOTHING else. Very FEW of them are trained properly [maybe 5%] and VERY FEW of them do HANDS-ON safety training. ALL of them qualify to receive the grant funding that non profit instructors USE to be able to get under the Dept of Education.The DNR conveintly switched the rules over so that only LEO agencies and Intermediate school districts could access ORV grant safety training funds.

So what does ALL the above really mean? It means that now under new DNR administration, that now as long as you are a COP, you AUTOMATICALLY are QUALIFIED to teach ANY ORV safety class AND you'll also get paid ORV safety funds for doing so. All of this with NO TRAINING too. You can now drop little Joey off at your local High School at 6pm, have an UNTRAINED LEO plug in a couple of video tapes that your kids have allready seen when you bought them their ATV/CYCLE,and TRY and have the cop answer real questions that only a professional instructor can answer.The cop then tosses in a 50 question ORV test in front of your kids and if little Joey can score a 70% or above, by God, he has earned his safety certificate.I even had a father tell me that one retired cop did a class with 91 kids in it and told them they were legal to ride POWER LINES in Michigan.[talk about incompetance]

What a completely WASTE of funds. Not only have I PERSONALLY sat thru a few of these safety classes as an undercover student [ to satisfy my OWN curiosity] I have feverishly complained to the DNR about the incompetance of their instructors and the lack of education these kids are receiving. To date [over 2 years now] I have met in Lansing with the DNR over 11 times to discuss proper training of these 500 Instructors, and as of this date, we have not changed a damn thing and the DNR continue to Hire even more incompatant LEO's.

I am currently at my ends witt with these DNR folks and IF proposed changes are not made within this year, I will once again meet with my Lawyer and we will seek legal changes.

Bill

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I've never agreed with the CPSC age/cc guidelines and never will.. Those guideline are redicules in most cases and are a direct result of what happened in the 3 wheeler days. I much prefer a proper size/fit than to use the age/cc guidelines. Some laws/restrictions are flat out redicules and this is one good example.

Bill

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected*

Sorry, and I dont know WHERE you get you information from, but it is incorrect. I was at the meetings when we discussed raising the sticker fund from 16.25 to 25.00 and EVERY area of the ORV fund would have also raised. The ORV safety fund would have went from 1 dollar per sticker to getting three bucks put into it.

Somebody is feeding you BS.

Bill

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Allowing instructors to 'sub-contract' these classes didn't work either; as instructors were getting $100 per kid from the fund...subbing them out for $40...and keeping $60 for "administration"! ......
END OF QUOTE**

Once again, you are wrong. NO Instructor could legally charge more than 25 dollars per student when they were working under the grant funding.Once their grant funding ran out for the fiscal year, they than could charge a class fee of whatever it costs to perform the class.The only things you've exposed here is un-true statements.

Our ORV Safety funds were NEVER adopted to train instructors. It was set in place to allow users to get a less expensive training class for their kids until such a time as it was used up.

Bill

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Sorry, Bill.
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself--END OF QUOTE*

I read the minutes and was at the meeting. Once again, the sticker fee's were to go from 16.25 up to 25.00 per sticker and EVERY area of the ORV fund WOULD have DEFINATELY seen an INCREASE in their budget. The ORV safety side of the fund would have went from 1 buck to 3 bucks..So if you were paying 16.25 for a sticker and it was raised up to 25 bucks, with 2 bucks of this raise going to the ORV safety fund [that puts us now at 18.25], where the hell do you suppose the rest [ $6.75] is going?

Towards the REST of the ORV fund!

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I completely understand your pie method. What im trying to say is that the original percentages that were set forth for this ''pie'' needed to be revamped and looked into. When Law Enforcement takes 33% of the total 16.25 sticker fee and does not even patrol the trails [very much] and harass riders when they are on the trail, there is something wrong with the percentages of each part of this pie and we need to re-think these percentages. Our kids training should receive FAR MORE than 1 buck out of every sticker fee. They SCREWED up the formula's when they were orginated and we need to FIX THEM.

I also found out in last weeks ORV Board meeting that the 53% of the trail portion of our 16.25 does NOT all make it to the ground/trails either. I was informed that when the Administrative part 3-1/8% of the 16.25 sticker fee is used up, that the Department goes into this fund to take a paycheck for themselves. This is BS and it needs to be STOPPED.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Tell me what OTHER ORV programs that would be ''cut'' for the sake of safety subsidies you so elequently speak of? There would not be ONE single area of the ORV fund that would not also increase as a direct result of an increase of ORV sticker monies. Your talking out your asz here again.


Partnership with law enforcement?
You've got to be KIDDING me here on this one. These guys are paid out of OUR ORV FUND to serve us, not harrass us. I've heard MANY horror stories thru my many yrs of teaching safety classes [and 1000s of students] from some very respectable individules [and ORV leaders] about the arrogancy of many[not all] DNR officers and have even seen this myself. Even had a DNR friend of mine tell me that when a DNR recruit goes thru the DNR Academy, they tell you ''if'' you spot an ORV on the trail, they are doing something wrong.. Thats like telling a police office if he see's a black guy in a car while on routine patrol, better stop him, he's doing something wrong. This is profiling no matter which way you look at it and thats not what we pay these guys for---PERIOD... HISTORICALLY, thru the years, its been the DNR that wont cooporate with the clubs. For the most part, its the DNR that wont allow a close relationship between users and themselves. You have NO IDEA of the amount of complaints I get against arrogant DNR officers. I've PERSONALLY even contacted a female DNR officer after she wrote a bogus warning ticket to a client of mine, only to have it dismissed 45 minutes after my conversation with her.

These guys get a portion of their paychecks from our ORV fund, its high time THEY start to work WITH us instead of AGAINST us.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I dont have the EXACT % of where our ORV funds go directly in front of me, but im going to be VERY close with the below figures

* 53% to trail maintenance
* 12% to damage restoration
* 32% Law Enforcement
* 3% Administrative
* 1 buck for safety training

What im claiming is that the above percentages need to be MODIFIED. We do NOT need to give 33% of our ORV funds for LEO purposes when we barely even see them on the trails and when we do, many of them HARRASS riders instead of helping them. IMO, we are overpaying in this department until such a time as DNR can understand that they are suppose to work FOR the riders, not against them. Sure, there are times when a rider DESERVES a citation and a little harsh attitude from a DNR, but for the most part, I do not feel like the DNR do a decent job in this department.

Trail Maintenance?
Another area that we WASTE ORV funds on. Grant sponsers are being paid $$ to do their part and our trails are in terrible shape. We NEED to look at also OUTSOURCING this work to outside contractors who will be held ACCOUNTABLE for inactions of duties instead of being paid without making SURE the job was done right in the first place.

Safety Training?
These percentages were way off from the first day they come up with the one dollar figure. And even MORE today than before,because right now under the DNR administration, out of the 500 or more safety instructors we currently have, very FEW of them have the PROPER QUALIFICATIONS to instruct a class of this nature and they are SUCKING the ORV Safety fund DRY. Kids and parents lose out here.

If we are going to RAISE ORV sticker fee's to 25 bucks per sticker, than lets get these damn % modified in each area so that it best beneifits the entire package of the fund.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

The State had no ruling on the grant issue for non profit instructors, it was the DNR personal who conviently read into the Administrative rules who got the non- profit instructors kicked out of the program. It was the DNRs DIRECT Intention to TAKE OVER the entire safety program and run it as THEY saw fit, with no outside involvement what so ever.

To a point, they SUCCEDED in getting rid of some pretty darn good Instructors out there in the private sector.Only to have them replaced by some improperly/untrained fly-by-night LEO buddies of their own who dont have much more qualifications than a fly to instruct a class of this nature.

Our parents and youth will suffer in the end!

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

The ORV program was not moved from the Dept of Education over to the DNR because kids were not getting trained, it was moved by Executive Order of Jennifer Granholm [Governor] as a direct result of budget restraints and budget re-directions and nothing else.

And further, we never DEMANDED that the Attorney General get involved in this ruling, we only requested it. Dont you find it IRONIC [at best] that for YEARS the Department of Education had NO PROBLEM reading into the Administrative Rules that allowed non-profits Grant Funding, than when the DNR takes over the program, they read the SAME rules a DIFFERANT WAY? I'll tell you WHY. Their GOAL right from the beginning was to put an END to ANYBODY outside of a LAW ENFORCEMENT agency to STOP instructing. Another words, if you were not into their little LEO click---YOU were OUT OF THE INSTRUCTING PICTURE..PERIOD!

I am privy to a DNR officer friend of mine and believe me when I tell you that the DNR does not want outside involvement in these safety courses.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Yeah, and the fact that we suddenly went from 2800 kids being trained one year to over 7,000 kids receiving some kind of training the next...had absolutely nothing to do with that decision either. :rolleyes--END OF QUOTE*

''SOME KING OF TRAINING''???????
You've got to be kidding me? OBVIOUSLY you have never sat thru a class put on by one of these LEO clowns that the DNR hired overnight? I have, and they suffer greatly,as do the majority of instructors that teach them.Tell me how in the hell can the DNR give a Barry County Deputy allmost OVERNIGHT, his license to instruct an ORV safety class [with NO training] on the mere merit of him being a LEO, and than have that SAME LICENSED ORV safety Instructor call MY office and ask ME what/how he is suppose to teach?[ I have a TAPED recording of this request]This is mostly WHAT is teaching your 7000 kids under the DNR.

You go ahead and BRAG all you want about going from 2800 kids trained in one year UP to 7000 kids the next year under the DNR, but you know what? The 2800 kids that were trained under the DOE Administration were trained by PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED INSTRUCTORS who actually had REAL credentials to teach. If the DNR is going to suck the ORV safety fund DRY with mostly untrained CLOWNS for instructors, than WHY make safety courses even MANDIDTORY in the first place?Alls you do here is make a complete JOKE out of something [the safety of our kids and the education of their PARENTS] that I personally take very seriously
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me something...if our orv leaders are so hell fire certain that the state is 100% absolutely wrong on this and that the DOE has been distributing funds properly for all these years...why don't you simply take them to court on it and ask the orv community to help defray your expenses?
END OF QUOTE*

You cant even get the ORV community to assist with attending an ORV meeting or assisting in helping out a weekend during the year to help with trail maintenace. Most have NO IDEA how the system even works. They only know that for their 16.25 cents, that they get trails to ride. I just know they'll all be excited to help defray other costs.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

I dont disagree for a second that the parents need to foot the bill for their kids safety training. What we disagree on is how you brag about how many kids were trained under the DOE vs the DNR.

DOE instructors were real trained instructors. Most of those hired under the DNR administration dont even own or ride an ATV/ORV. These instructors are there only because they wear a badge and can make the ''NUMBERS'' look higher, in an attempt to make the DNR look like they know what their doing and nothing else.

Kids and parents suffer here.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Sure, you call it a TRIPLING of funds and in a sense it is, however, my problem with that ''tripling'' issue is that the ORV safety fund was UNDER FUNDED in the first place. With only one dollar going into the ORV safety portion of the fund from the begining, we were going to run out of funds REAL FAST in this area. So IMO, a re-vamping of this entire PIE formula is badly needed and was WRONG right from the begining.

If someone pays your company 10 bucks for a bottle of pop, and you plan to put,

*5.00 away for the pop itself
*3.00 away for the cap
*1.75 away for the labling
*.25 cents for the bottle itself
and later thru financing you find out that some of the % in these area's were wrong in the first place, are you not going to make the necessary adjustments to make things more efficient for your company?

The ORV formula's need re-vamping and we need to get rid of the ORV safety part of the fund if only in-ept LEO Instructors are able to qualify for this part of the ORV funding.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

How do you run out of or even come up short on training related funds....if those same funds consist mainly of subsidies to trainers--END OF QUOTE**

Thats the easiest one yet to explain!
You simple GIVE that money away to ANY of the MANY improperly trained and most often UNTRAINED 500 or so officers that were hired overnight by the DNR to instruct ORV safety classes. WATCH how fast that ORV safety fund can/will be SUCKED DRY than. --''OR'' you could have some retired Sheriff officer get 91 kids together at the same dealership [all at the same time] and get paid 25 bucks per kid [$2.275 out of the ORV safety fund] for the 3 hr class that he just put on.And the same in-ept officer just told one of your kids that they can ride any of the power lines they want in Gaylord. [COMPLETE MIS-INFORMATION]

Go ahead, defend these DNR cops all you want, but there IS a reason WHY I've met with them in Lansing over 11 times in the last 2 years. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that they KNOW about the problem that exsists with their hired LEO's who perform ORV safety classes.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Is it just me, or are there OTHERS who have a hard time figuring out the points trying to be made out of most of BBs posts.

Perhaps im getting old and senile?

Bill

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Yah,

and its a damn shame the ORV leadership across America cannot understand a sentence that Mr BB himself writes in any forum.

OR?
It just might possible be that not even ONE of them give a damn about much anything he has to say anymore. [even IF they were able to understand a sentence]

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

The ASI safety courses will NEVER work as a federal mandated form of safety training,if one were to ever occur. The CPSC AGE/CC guidlines that they force instructors to abide by is redicules in about 95% of the kids that I've trained thru that organization thru out the years. Simply put, mom and dad are not going to spend their hard earned money to buy 13 yr old Joey,who weighs 140lbs and stands 5"6 tall, a 90cc ATV just to make the ASI and the CPSC happy. Its like trying to fit the SAME KID who would normally wear a size 10 shoe, lets just ''squeeze'' him into a size 6 instead.The ASI ATV safety program actually IMPEDES training of youth under the age of 16 because of their redicules AGE/CC guidelines.

No, im not comparing ATV's with shoe's. But these CPSC guidelines are redicules in most cases and I'd rather see us go to a proper size/fit than to use the CPSC Guidelines before we can instruct.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Federal mandate probably will never happen because it than takes away each States own authority to mandate its own guidelines. I would not be opposed to a federal safety guidline on training IF it were to make SENSE.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

A few years ago in Michigan at the largest maintained system in the nation...law enforcement was purposely not even writing citations for kids lacking any kind of training; as the opportunity to get said training in the numbes required just plain and simple weren't there. END OF QUOTE*******


Simple not true. Instead, there was absolutely NO RUSH on behalf of ANY Administration to properly train instructors thru out the State so we would have enough of us so that parents would not have to drive 100 miles for a safety class. The DOE administration did not seem to even give a damn about getting enough properly trained instructors because it simply was not a top priority of theirs.The lack of Instructors was brought up time/time again in ORV Board meetings and nobody gave a damn.

Under an Exucutive Order by Jenny Granholm in Oct of 2003, the responsability for these safety classes was removed from the DOE to the DNR. Now instead of 60 or so PROPERLY TRAINED instructors under the DOE [YES we needed MORE], we now have over 500 Cracker Jack Joker's that dont posses the qualifications to instruct Romper Room, much less a ATV/ORV safety class and the DNR are well aware of this.[this is YOUR quote ''some kind of training'']---You take YOUR kids to one of these classes, but I want a WELL QUALIFIED Instructor teaching MY kid the safe/responsable way to respect a machine that could KILL him/her.

Its a total EMBARASSMENT to every ORV instructor who went thru the Administrative Rules and followed them to a T to get licensed under the DOE.

Its like taking a regular ''JOE'' off the street today, and pinning a DNR badge on him without even making him go thru the Academy.

DNR would'nt like it no more than a professional Instructor [such as myself] likes how the DNR licensed instructors under their Administration.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

BB,
1+1 still equals 2 no matter HOW you add it up...You brag all you want about the kids getting ''some training''under the DNR administration, but the fact of the matter is that the DNR is sucking the ORV safety part of our 16.25 sticker fund DRY with untrained and unprofessional instructors who have very little [if any?] qualifications to instruct a class of this nature.

Go ahead and back these guys all you want, but SOME training is NOT good enough for a machine that can kill you IMO. Hell, if ''some training'' is OK with you ,than why dont we just all together BAN the mandidtory requirement of training kids under 16 as long as the parents sign a waiver that their kids read a book on ORV safety?

It'd sure be a hell of a lot cheaper and the results would be a heck of alot more than what our kids are being taught now from most untrained LEO's.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

QUOTE*
Are the ATV funding problems and ATV instructor qualification issues you describe (see below) confined to the state of Michigan?END OF QUOTE*

I cant reply on whats going on in other States. I only know the troubles that Michigan has.

The ASI [ATV Safety Institute] IC [Instructor Course] is as good as it gets IMO. It use to be the widely used standard that Michigan Instructors used to get their training and these Instructors were widely accepted under the Department of Education when they were running the ORV safety program here in Michigan.

The PROBLEM with the ASI training program for our kids on a State/State basis is that the instructors MUST teach within the AGE/CC guidelines set forth by the CPSC,

*Ages 6-11 must not operate any ATV over 69cc
*Ages 12-15 must not operate any ATV over 90cc

This means that an ASI instructor CANNOT teach a kid on any ATV that does not meet the above stipulations. And 95% of the kids in America do not ride ATVs that meet the above criteria and hence, do NOT qualify for ASI training.

So as you can see, the ASI program actually IMPEDES training of our kids.

In Michigan, the instructor is able to instruct a kid based on a proper SIZE/FIT rather than using the CPSC AGE/CC guidlines. Problem is, the DNR went and REMOVED the mandidtory requirement that mandated training your kid on his/her ATV..

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

You dont understand HOW the ASI safety course IMPEDES training of youth?

Its real simple, if your youth does not train on the correct engine size ATV for his age, he DOES not get training thru ASI.And the loaners are a JOKE at best. Instructors have to PULL THEIR HAIR OUT to get a dealership to give them a loaner ATV,so MOST ASI instructors do NOT have enough ''loaner'' ATVs to go around, IF they can even get ONE?

And the student does NOT get FREE training thru the ASI safety course UNLESS the new ATV they purchased meets the AGE/CC guidelines for the student riding it. So if you purchased a new 250cc ATV, and your 12-15 yr old needs training, you would have to not only have the instructor make sure he has a 90cc loaner available for your kid, you would also wind up PAYING for this kids training.

And trying to fit a kid 12-15yrs old that is 5"7 and weighs 150lbs on a 90cc ATV? When he is forced to operate an ATV on the ASI obstacle course that does not PROPERLY FIT him and trys to perform some of the track obstacles that you mention above, he cannot perform them correctly because he is riding an ATV that does not fit him and that defeats most of the OBJECTIVE of that particular lesson plan he is doing on the track.

There is very little you can tell me about the ASI safety course [if anything]??I taught it for years here in Michigan and even received some awards from ASI. ----ASI is losing a TON of instructors because of the AGE/CC guidelines and until they are revamped, they will continue to lose instructors.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Actually in California all youths 6-16 (I've also seen it written as under-16) receive training for free. Training is subsidized by the state--END OF QUOTE*

Cali may have FREE TRAINING, but I dont believe for a second that it is performed thru the ATV Safety Institute.

And ''IF'' training is performed by the ASI ???---I GAUREENTEE you that the instructors are NOT allowed to go outside of the AGE/CC recommendations set forth by the CPSC. The end result is FAR less kids get trained thru an ASI safety course.

When I did the ASI safety courses here in Michigan, I actually QUITE doing the ASI safety course for youth under 16 [sent them to another ASI instructor] because of the AGE/CC restrictions, and recommended that they take the State safety course instead.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

The above is yet ANOTHER reason WHY the ASI is losing instructors.

You see, the customer who purchased the new ATV and gets the free training, NOTHING comes out of his pocket to pay for his class [a 125.00 value] ...So if an Instructor has 12 students on his class roster and only ONE student shows up, the instructor only gets paid for the one student that showed up and took the class,which is 35 bucks. Now this instructors entire day is RUINED,all for 35 bucks in earnings.

This is a HUGE problem with ASI instructors and happens all the time. Here an instructor takes off a weekend to instruct a safety class full of students, and only a few wind-up showing up. This is VERY disturbing to most ASI instructors and many have QUIT because of it.Its also against the ASI guidlines to have more than 8 ADULT students at one time in a class.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Instructors are encouraged to TRY and get loaner ATVs from Dealers in their area. Under the manufacture guidlines, the manufacture will only give the dealer a 15-20% reduction on their Dealer Invoice [what the dealer pays the manufacture for the ATV] for allowing an ASI instructor to use the ATV as a loaner for a year.

When the Instructor brings back the loaner ATV after a year of having it, there WILL be SCRATCHES all over the unit and the Dealer just MIGHT break even when he sells it to a customer as a Driver Education ATV. So MOST dealers in Michigan dont want anything to do with the loaner program.

QUOTE*
I have no idea how you conclude FAR less kids obtain ATVSI training with this policy. END OF QUOTE*

Its real SIMPLE,
*Most kids are not riding an ATV according to the CPSC AGE/CC Guidlines.So unless the ASI instructor has a BOATLOAD of LOANER ATVs within the AGE/CC guidlines for kids aged 6-15years old, the kids dont get trained.

I like the way Michigan use to do it under the Dept of Education.
*If the kid PROPERLY fits the ATV [according to a properly trained Instructor] that he brings to the safety course, than the Instructor is allowed to have him train on it. FAR MORE kids get training like this than what do under the ASI safety course.

So as you can clearly see, the ASI safety course actually IMPEDES training our youth under 16 years old, vs the way Michigan use to do it.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

QUOTE*
edit - I did quick search for classes and there are 12 in the Dearborn area in the coming month, 15 in the Lansing in the next month, and 11 in the Grand Rapids area over the coming 3 months. That plus the fact ATVSI is not short of instructors in the Michigan area would support the position that there are sufficient classes to meet the demand in your area--END OF QUOTE

REALLY?
THAN WHY dont you tell the above to a couple of my ASI Instructor Friends right here in Michigan. I've been told that Michigan is indeed short on ASI instructors directly from the MOUTH of a few Michigan ASI Instructors themselves in ORV Board meetings. Perhaps they are LYING just to make conversation [lol]

And IF Michigan does have ALL these upcoming ASI classes you speak of, HOW MANY of them are for youth between the ages of 6-15 yrs of age?NONE?

I'll bet in the 5 years that I taught the ASI safety course here in Michigan, that I did not teach more than 30 kids in all because of the CPSC AGE/CC restrictions.

I've taught 30 kids before with the Michigan program in a single weekend. Now that is what I call SUFFICIENT!

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

QUOTE*
For all the criticism the ASI program has received, it is still the one program that is accepted to be a legitimate attempt to consolidate the sport, and the one that many states model their programs after. Is it perfect, no. Does it need updating, yes. What are you going to do about it? In the time it takes to sit here and complain about it, you could have fired off a few messages to people who could do something about it
END OF QUOTE*

Thats hilarious! WHY?
Each year, the ASI and its instructors have one meeting [per State] per year when most of the Instructors of that particular State and their Cheif Instructor congregate to a central location to discuss certain issues regarding the classes. I cant even BEGIN to tell you how MANY times the AGE/CC restrictions were brought up to the Cheif Instructors.

ASI hands are tied up with CPSC AGE/CC guidelines BECAUSE they get their pay checks thru all the manufactures that participate in the ASI program,and if you think the ASI is going to CRY WOLF to the very folks that write them their pay checks, you've got it all wrong. The Consent Decree Agreement was an agreement by the manufactures and the CPSC way back in 1988, and way back than, perhaps it had SOME merit to it. But almost 17yrs later, it has very little merit to it at all IMO.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

QUOTE by WINDTRADER*
I want to thank you personally for making me go to page one of this thread and read every post in order to better grasp the basic topic of safe operation of ATV by youth as well as adults. After spending hours, a bit at a time, I honestly can not recollect a single post where you offered a single ,constructive suggestion to improve the safety of youths riding ATVs. Every post is argumentative, combative, inaccurate, and unhelpful to someone like myself (not many) who posted here to get some advice on youth atv training.END OF QUOTE*

Quote by Muddy*
So as you can see, the ASI program actually IMPEDES training of our kids.

When I did the ASI safety courses here in Michigan, I actually QUITE doing the ASI safety course for youth under 16 [sent them to another ASI instructor] because of the AGE/CC restrictions, and recommended that they take the State safety course instead.
END OF MUDDY QUOTE*

You've given up trying to be helpful. If you want to quit being part of the problem, please unsubscribe from this tread and do not interject your comments in any forum where earnest efforts and dialog are underway to actually improve youth ATV safety riding.

Thanks to EEresQ and others here who provided support, encouragement, and constructive advice and insight into the safety topic. If you would like I'd be happy to offer my own anecdotal commentary after taking the course next month. I remain hopeful that my own objectives are reasonable and will be fully met.
END OF QUOTE*------------------------------------------------------------------

WINDTRADER,
At no time did I ever say that I did not teach the ASI course to youth under the age of 16. I did say that after awhile of doing the ASI course for youth, that I quit doing it after I realized how the AGE/CC restrictions actually Impeded instructing any REAL amount of youth under the age of 16,when compared to the State Program.

And PLEASE,you are a rookie in these forums. I dont need someone with 8 posts coming in here and telling a veteran Instructor who has taught 1000's of FAMILIES thru the years, the SAFE and RESPONSABLE way to operate Off Road Products,that my information is INNACCURATE, and UNHELPFUL...

It is of MY opinion [and MANY other past/present ASI Instructors] that because of the CPSC AGE/CC guidelines, that the ASI safety course actually IMPEDES training of most youth under the age of 16.

And if you cant tell the differance between posting the TRUTH [about certain safety programs] and being UNHELPFUL in this forum, than perhaps you should unsubscribe from this forum until you gain the proper knowledge to hold a meaningful conversation with a veteran Instructor who KNOWS the truth about many safety programs.

I've done more for the State of Michigans ORV safety program [and am STILL fighting] than most any of the ASI Instructors have ever done in their entire lifetime of Instructing youth for the State of Michigan.So until you have enough KNOWLEDGE to converse ACCURATLY with the big dogs,

STAY ON THE PORCH!

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

BB QUOTE
yet there are far to many parents expecting you and I to pay for their kid's training regardless of their income and far to many "non-profit" employees training kids right now that would be out of a job if anybody dared strap a set on in regards to conservative-based values in the sport
END OF BB QUOTE*

I dont know WHY BB continues to discuss the money that the ''non profits'' are profiting from the safety courses.NO NON-PROFIT INSTRUCTOR IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN HAS MADE ONE PENNY FROM THE ORV GRANT FUNDING PART OF THE ORV SAFETY FUND--PERIOD since the DNR takeover of the program. Under the new DNR/ORV Administration, only LEO's and intermediate school districts are eligible to receive grant funding to instruct ORV safety classes. And these are the very folks that dont have the knowledge or training to teach a Romper Room class.

I dont give a damn what a parents income is.If a parent can afford to buy his/her kid an ATV/ORV, they damn better first be aware of the RESPONSABILITES that are associated with operating one.And part of that responsability is making sure that the kid receives PROPER training from a QUALIFIED instructor, EVEN IF THE PARENT HAS TO PAY FOR THE CLASS!

I dont go to YOUR EMPLOYER and tell him that he pays you TOO MUCH money on your pay check. And who the hell do you think you are trying to tell Professional Instructors what their paycheck should look like when YOU have absolutely no idea what the value of the class is in the first place?

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Im not debating that there are OTHER factors that we need to concider. My only point is that SOME safety classes [ASI in this conversation] does indeed impede the training masses of kids [vs our State program with no AGE/CC restrictions] with the age/cc guidelines that an instructor MUST follow.

And you do not come across to me as any sort of a dummy, by no stretch of the imagination. There are just some issues about certain safety organizations that you lack any suitable amount of knowledge on to make a real assessement on the overall effectiveness of their training program.In this case, it is the ASI.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

QUOTE*
When the off-road community is forced to provide welfare-like subsidies to parents offering no proof of financial hardship...I believe it is our duty to ask questions as to not only exactly how that money is being spent by the recipients...but how we can effectively create even better programs for much less-END OF QUOTE*

When an individule purchases a ORV sticker here in Michigan for 16.25, one dollar of that sticker fee goes into the ORV safety education fund so that parents can get a reduced rate on ORV safety classes for their youth. When the SAME individule buys the same ORV sticker at the counter, I dont see ANYBODY asking the recipient to show ANY proof of financial hardship either. So why we all a sudden NOW want proof of financial hardship in order to get a reduced class rate for the same person who has to pay the same 16.25 per sticker as EVERYBODY else, is just insane.

I dont disagree for a second that we now need to remove the ORV Safety fund portion of our 16.25 sticker fee from the ORV formula, and make parents responsable to pay for this training. But right now, it is what it is and everybody should have a right to access a reduced rate for their youths class, as long as the funding is there and the class is being taught by a professionally trained Instructor.

Problem is, only law enforcement agencies can get their hands on the ORV safety portion of the grant fund, and these Romper Room Instructors are SUCKING up this part of the grant fund at a rate much faster than we can put the money in the pot.When an in-ept and untrained LEO can dump 91 kids into a dealership classroom and receive 25 bucks per student [thats a 2.275.00 paycheck] for a 3hr class, thats what I call a complete mis-use of the fund.

Yah, lets get rid of this safety funding portion and revamp the entire ORV formula so that it best suits the needs of the fund.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

OH, at last, im ''tired'' of debating with someone who does nothing but rant from a PC over/over/over /over over/over/over/over/over/over ect ect ect????????????????????

about the same thing all the time and you cant make much sense out of most of his posts anyways.

Just imagine IF he spent 1-25th as much time in Lansing [Our Capital] as he does on his P/C.

Im going to cut the grass, at least I can feel like I actually am getting something done rather than debating with someone who makes no sense.

Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Sorry fellows, I did'nt mean to get caught up in all of BB's BS---I'll refrain form further comment in here that does not relate to the topic.

Please accept my apologies.

Posted by: JohnO

Just my take on the subject...

Here in KY, we lead the world in ATV deaths. Of course, the numbers don't tell the whole story. We also have a high percentage of ATV ownership - there are more of them - and most telling, the laws regarding operation on secondary roads are fairly loose. That's the real problem.

As we all know, an ATV on pavement is an evil handling machine. They want to get you in trouble, and will get you in trouble at the first opportunity. The steering is way too sensitive for hard pavement, and the suspension is set up to where it will try to turn even tighter. I routinely drive down a country road to a neighbor's farm, about four miles. My current Arctic Cat 500i with IRS is somewhat stable, but my old Big Bear, with it's live axle, was a nightmare on pavement. All over the place, and it kept trying to tuck in and turn even sharper. It wanted to wreck.

And in fact, here in KY that's the typical ATV fatality. I've read this story in the papers, and it's almost always the same. A teenager, quite often on a sport quad, on a country road, probably going fast. Sees a car coming the other way, turns a bit to avoid it, the quad turns too quickly as they tend to do, rider overcorrects, it zings the other way, right into the oncoming vehicle. Bang. Dead rider.

Finally, there is the most serious problem for all of us - children, or more correctly, dead children. While that idea is horrifying to any parent, it's bad for all of us because dead kids are a magnet for media attention. The Child Killing Machine. Sells a lot of papers. Look at what the press is doing with the astronaut story - they took a simple catfight between two women, and turned it into a kidnapping and attempted murder story. And they're having a field day with young people on ATV's, because stories about dead kids sell.

I may raise some hackles here... get the kids off of a quad style machine. A child, with little caution and little experience, has no business riding a machine that can easily roll over and kill them. They have no business riding a machine that a friend can sit on the back and ride with them, however unsafe that may be. Maybe you can firmly instruct your child and oversee them so that they can operate a quad safely, maybe I can, but most people aren't doing this, and we are catching all the bad publicity as a result.

Replace the child sized quads. A child can just as easily operate an Oddysey style quad - roll cage, lower to the ground, a good setup that protects an exuberant child for when they get carried away, and no rack on the back for a buddy to sit on and destabilize the machine. No, they aren't riding a machine 'just like dad's', but they won't get killed in a rollover, and their protection in a head on collision is much better. We must recognize that children do not always use good judgment. Putting a child on a machine that is prone to rolling over without the protection of a roll cage isn't a good idea. We got rid of 3 wheelers for safety reasons, and I think the atv world is better for it. We can replace the child quads with something more appropriate for their maturity, or lack of. That might seem a bit restricting for us responsible parents, but it's either that or even harsher measures.

Second, more stiff laws regarding an adolescent operating a full sized quad are needed, especially on pavement, because that's where the majority of fatalities occur. Catch a kid, under 16, on a public road, and confiscate the quad. That will hit home to the very parents that cause us so much trouble, the inattentive types that don't lock down the Grizzly while they are away. Let's be honest - if you own a big quad, your adolescent child has no business riding it without supervision, probably shouldn't be riding it at all, let alone on a road where they are particularly dangerous. After one or two career parents lose their $8k quad, the others will start to do what they should have done in the first place - pay attention. If they don't do it out of a sense of responsibility, they'll surely do it for fear of financial loss.

We have a choice here. Either we act as a group, or the government will act for us, and they won't be particularly accomodating, especially with the dead children problem. All it takes is one ambitious politico running for office on a 'protect our children' campaign. The child death problem will be addressed, one way or another.

Your call - how do you want to handle this?






Posted by: JohnO

Trouble is, it's not us that's getting killed. It's someone else's kids, or someone else who doesn't know much about a quad. Others have said it already - they look stable because they have four wheels and big tires, but they aren't. The very design features that make them so capable off road also make them tricky to operate.

Say what you will about Darwin weeding out the foolish, but if deaths keep rising, especially adolescent deaths, the government will step in. And we won't like what they will do. Imagine a huge roll cage - wouldn't that be a pretty sight? Maximum center of gravity. Weight and displacement limits lower than they are today. Higher prices, too - we'll all be riding small Rhinos if the feds step in. Given the size/displacement wars today, we may want tighter limits - you want to meet a 1000cc/1000 pound quad on the trail coming the other way, with a newbie riding it? Sort of like driving in the city, with a 14 year old behind the wheel of a Lincoln Navigator coming at you.

We're sort of caught between a rock and a hard place. The mass marketing of quads has yielded rich benefits for us all - they're getting better, more capable every year, but the price isn't rising as much because so many more are being sold. The downside to this is a lot of inexperienced people, with visions of those glitzy ads, are buying them. And getting hurt.

Typical case - a friend's father in law buys a hilly piece of land to retire on. Decides he wants a quad, and going with the 'bigger is better' marketing, gets a Grizzly. Okay, I'm impressed. But he knows nothing about them, and the griz can be a handful. So I said - tell him to watch out, that thing is big and heavy, and it can roll over. And it's going to really hurt if it does.

Three weeks later, he tries to take on a hillclimb, just like in the TV ads. Unlike the TV ads, he commits the cardinal sin of hillclimbing - he hesitates halfway up. Stops, and then tries to turn around. Over it goes - they didn't show that part in the ad. He got off easy, only broke a leg. Had to crawl almost a mile back to his house, neighbor found him in the yard the next morning. He's lucky to be alive. You'd think the warnings and the stickers would have been a clue - I almost got writer's cramp from signing all the legal forms the last time I bought a new quad. But, apparently not.

So, along with teenagers riding on pavement, there's your other big problem - the person hyped up on those fancy ads. Those spots get us lower prices from volume sales, but they're bringing in an inexperienced crowd. The manufacturers won't help - they're too busy making them bigger and heavier so you'll buy next year's model. If one does it, they all do it.

It's time to bring some sense to this, before the feds do it for us.


Posted by: Bing

my favorite trail in NC has gravestones marking all the dead,,,,some date to the days the dirtbike was invented

it sure makes a fella slow down in those dangerous corners to observe all the names


unfortunately some people have trouble with self preservation




Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

"...All you see is one guy, or a group of guys out riding the trails. If that... and we all know it is about taking your child out on the trails, stopping ot look at a group of flowers, looking at some neat scenery etc. It isn't all about blasting around at top speed, jumping over mudholes etc....."


I would offer that there's just no money in it for many of our very own major orv organizations......which has been proven in the disproportionate amount of time and effort thrown into racing over the past several decades at the expense of our trail systems and public land now undergoing massive closures.

These races aren't being put on by the manufacturers; yet the manufacturers will always siphon off the best promotional talent from the orv 'non-profit' community lacking for decades to organize issues that are so much more important to the sport.

I find it very hard to support the non-profits still heavily involved both monetarily and staff-wise in 'racing' while our entire trail system goes down the tubes over the wholesale neglect of a travel management issue that national orv leaders saw coming for literally decades (but didn't have the guts to even so much as comment on).

I'm also all for promoting the sport as you've alluded to; yet who is going to tell these manufacturers that the vast majority of us are truly not out there on the racetrack...and more importantly....that the local non-profit guys we're supposed to send money into running local races at the expense of truly organizing our sport for all these years, are (finally) out of a job?

These guys not only want us split up (not under the same organizational roof)....but they DEMAND that a good chunk of any resources sent in be diverted towards something that does the sport not a damn bit of good for anybody but those directly profiting from it.

Posted by: blackballed

Agreed.
I can forgive the 'media' for following the racing dollar....yet there is absolutely no reason that our community membership dollars should have ever been spent to support it; a diversion of funds that has forced division within our ranks (see the red-headed-step-child ATVA) and squandered those precious monetary resources for the sake of a few cushy non-profit careers that haven't payed the sport back a dime.

As always, nobody has had the guts to talk about any of this publicly...which keeps the 'old school' businees model plugging along and these career non-profit employees off of the street.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

"...It is time to concentrate on a positive approach to the sport and leave the past behind us. What was done is done. ...Ya can't fix what doesn't want fixing.. but you tried...."


I'd like you to explain the above to all of these kid's parents who have lost their precious child or were left with him or her maimed for life over the past two decades or so.

Windrock and/or the atv community didn't pave or lead the way for these "it's about time/thank God" safety laws about to take effect in Tennessee....

Southeastern KY went literally kicking and streaming into wearing helmets when they opened recently....

...and southern WV is literally a safety-free zone (off the H/M system) in and of itself not because there are fees to be paid to ride the pay-to-play trail that is properly maintained...but because safety related rules DO exist there.

Sorry, DB; but your "positive approach" killed one heck of a lot of kids and adults these past two decades simply because folks weren't willing to call a spade a spade nor get right in the middle of these issues where just plain nastiness and even threats were certainly the norm.

Those hundreds of kids are all now DEAD, DB....and if you want to put a pie-in-the-sky pollyanna spin on how 99.9% of us simply didn't have the guts to put a stop to this one heck of a long time ago or how we should now look back or forward 'positively' to what is still happening right to this very day...then 'spin away' my friend and certainly keep me out of it.

Posted by: blackballed

From the article and thank you very much for posting it:
"...In part, it's also a matter of good intentions gone awry. Moving to more stable, four-wheel models was an improvement, but a side effect was to shift the safety debate to rider behavior and away from ATV design...."

As we all know, that type of serious debate never happened within this so-called 'united' orv community and obviously never will.
I used to approach manufacturer-sponsored speed shops in regards to not sponsoring anything or even asking for money....but simply trying to get the word out on a new type of youth atv safety training course that both Muddy4Life and I were holding for the first time ever in this area. Save the very smallest dealership in the region who voluntarily (without asking) provided us a youth quad...the overall interest in youth training programs was absolutely appalling; as was any interest in the proper maintenance of our local trail system as related to safety... hands down.

As I stated earlier; nobody has had the guts to comment on what has been happening in places like WV.; TN; KY. or hundreds of other places all across this country where safety is literally sneered at and the proponents of same even attacked for promoting it. Our orv non-profit leaders have purposely stayed away from going on the offensive regarding this subject and/or condemning places where this has been happening....simply because doing so would have resulted in a loss of membership money for them and most likely the loss of their cushy "we write off our riding weekends" so-called phony orv careers.

Sorry, but I don't like the fact that this guy has gone over to the 'dark side' either (his coworkers were correct; as design hasn't changed one bit) or the fact that earlier research is now abandoned because we are somehow supposed to supplant the "Chinese" as now our #1 threat here.
Tell me, how much would YOU pay this guy as a manufacturer to kill effectively two birds with one stone (both your fast-growing competition and the creation of a non-introspectrive end-around safety campaign) to turn the focus off of your very own dealers or these largely un-regulated riding areas that have traditionally caused the most injuries...but guess what...have sold a pretty good number of quads over the years???.

Cheap quads aren't killing our kids here...it's the fact that speaking out against our very own orv leaders on this subject and many others such as pay-to-play; strict enforcement and equal multi-use access...gets you booted out of this community or severely restricted from ever forcing the kind of 'take sides' parental behavior that leads to truly helping these kids in the first place.

Oh, I forgot; it's as simple and easy as us all seeking that Xanadu inspired good 'ol "positive attitude" DB chided me earler about...then (by gosh) all of these kids will finally receive the organizational-type legacy-driven structure behind them to indeed recreately safely well into the future.

Sorry, but I don't view dead, injured or maimed kids as anything 'positive'...and I'm certainly not seeing a whole heck of a lot being done about it other than trying silence folks like myself simply willing to speak their peace.

Posted by: blackballed

[q]Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

"....Come on BB, you know very well what I am talking about. I don't need ot explain it...."

No, I do think you need to explain yourself, DB; as you seemingly like to speak in wide generalities (I'll call it the "koombaya syndrome) while I'm out here giving specific examples on the subject at hand and relating the real-life political incidents that got us all here in the first place.
Sorry, bub; but I've gone toe to toe with these jerks who have ignored all these calls for improving safety and by gosh called them on it. If that kind of 'stand up like a man' vs 'let's all hold hands and just talk about it for a couple more years' approach bothers you....so be it.

".... I am tired of you and Muddy hijacking every thread you come accross that has more than 50 views ot continue your ongoing tit for tat. Although we all share the same gripes, the constant in your face whining over spilled milk isn't going anywhere. Not one constructive comment has come out of it...."

I don't know what trail sytem you're referring to when you speak from experience, DB; but we're out here on the political front lines of the largest damn maintained trail system in this nation. Safety-related issues have dominated the workings of this system like no other in this country in recent history. I'm here trying to integrate my experience and perspective on this mess into this conversation If you or Muddy wants to attack me for teliing the truth...so be it. My only satisfaction seems to lie in the fact that neither one of you appears willing to deny a word of it...and that frankl;y tells this readership a lot about how screwed up this community has actually become

"...We know that the machines are in need of some improvements. Wider equals safer. We all know that. The problem really revolves aroud the CPSC guidelines that are outdated, and are bing used as the basis for riding programs by states...."

C'mon, DB!!!
Do you just choose to 'simplify' everything?!
How about orv leadership getting their crap together and working WITH the CPSC to have solved all of this twenty years ago?
For pete's sake, when they met with us in WV a few years back....as that's where all the kids were getting slaughtered at that point in time..we couldn't even put a signed petition together from the community that had the word HELMET in it!
Kids are getting killed, injured and maimed because the CPSC guidelines are outdated(?)....or is it simply because our own leaders don't have the guts to go into certain areas of this country and lose membership money when they alienate a good share of these people with the cold hard truth?

"...My bottom line here is that your motives and way of bitching all the time is tiresome and does not add to the conversation. All it does is drive people away from what could be constructive commentary. I give up... and do what a lot of people are doing on lists like this... finding other things to do with my time...."


I'm out here saying what needs to be said on these topics because frankly, DB...you won't.
It seems that you cannot point to one individual or group that is even PARTLY responsible for the mess that we find ourself in today....while I seem willing to simply chronicle this whole mess so that we never repeat this leadershp-less fiasco for the sake of our kids.

And what are our kids intently learning from this now 'one-way' conversation, DB?

That we should all stand on the side of always being 'positive' while this bogus house of cards literally falls down all around us or that it's always a good time to pack up the tent and leave for the sake of their oh-so fragile feelings ever being affected?

As I've said before; the only ones out there truly understanding this subject are the parents of these kids who've had the issue hit them literally like a freight train right out of the blue. I suppose that they'd like to look at all of this 'positively' also...yet I'm guessing that a dose of reality-based observations hits a bit closer to home than maybe yours (no offense).

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: EEResQ


Anyone else here who has picked up on the pattern yet!

BTW:

ATV DEATHS ON RISE IN KENTUCKY


"STATE IS # 1 IN FATAL ATV WRECKS"

June 1, 2007

CLICK here for "Off-Road Rescue Team News" at www.EEResQ.com


Thanks for the first honest post that I've witnessed in literally years regarding this subject.

If anybody believes that the orv leaders you send your check into every year get involved in these matters any more than the LEs out there NOT given any kind of funding or mandate to sqaush this modeled behavior....they are kidding themselves.

Nobody that has been following this explosion of use in eastern KY is surprised at these figures. A few of us were even allowed on the KYforums website (briefly) before this area opened up and tried to talk about the huge responsibility they were about to take on; along with just how things were done elsewhere to prevent exactly this from happening less often.

And your so-called orv leaders pressed to publicly comment on the developing situation both there and in other safety-free zones like Windrock at the time?

As DB says.....they were both 'positive' that the situation would not turn any worse than it already was with thousands more riders well on their way to the area....and encouraged to nastily go on the offensive against any and all who 'dared' breach this taboo "by gosh we'll do whatever in the hell we want to" subject in the first place.

Again, the lack of stones or any stomach to fight for what's right in the general atv community has driven a LOT of people from ever again becomming involved in it....and I'm certain to be one of them after finally hearing this.

Thanks for being one of the few out there willing to simply speak your peace about this subject.

Posted by: blackballed

A quick story about one of those high profile national atv leaders who continually stuck their head in the sand at that time:

I called the office years ago to talk exactly about just what we have been disciusiing above and offer some help. My idea was to finally show the folks at Windrock not having the guts or character to model proper behavior for children around them that this was indeed flat out appalling and not supported anywhere else in the country save that regional area.
We'd go to this place and witness 6-7 year old kids at well attended events with thousands of people around....doubled up on youth quads with no helmets givng 'er hell up the mountainside with nary a parent around for literally miles.(and believe me, the adults were no better).

My suggestion was to help this so-called 'leader' man a booth at one of these events with his orv group's name on it that didn't just promote safety....but called for the type of rules to be immediately implimented at this private venue that would finally stop this kind of crap forever. These orv leaders have had absolutely no problem promoting these kind of places in their newsletters...but they sure as heck weren't ready to talk about exactly what you and your family would be exposed to when you got there.

I don't have to tell you how quickly he avoided my offer and tried to change the subject; yet what he hit me with next told the entire story.

The next thing you know; he was trying to blow smoke up my arse about almost 50% of us out here actually being 'hunters' who (and he couldn't have been more condescending when he said it) "actually".... didn't need helmets in the first place!
To further monopolize the conversation ( a favorite tactic of these guys just before they start attacking you for 'daring' to question their cozy little do-nothing 'non-profit' orv careers) he started in that 'his' solution was to carry around a hundy in his pocket to anyone catching him (and him only) without his helmet on!

Again, this is who our leadership has been while these Appalchian states have led the way in youth atv deaths over the years. I'm not making the point that any of these guys were directly responsible for these injuries...just that when the time came to stand up like a man (or woman) on these particular issues or many others involving pay-to-play or the responsible maintenance-basedf caretaking of our resources (actions that would have taken a big chunk out of their membership money each year for 'upsetting' the lowest common denominator safety-less "I've done my part by just giving to you" types keeping a roof over these leader's heads)....they wanted absolutely no part of it.

Standing up for what's right doesn't make you any friends, folks...and in the case of our community; it has been the single biggest factor in our demise bar none.

Which is exactly why many orv leaders both locally and nationally are now calling for us to simply gather around by the campfire or 'hold hands'....and by the way, send that check into us post haste; as we had absolutely nothing to do with the huge mess that we all find ourselves in today.
In my opinon, there needs to be a major housecleaning involving these arrogant leaders and a truly united multi-use trail oriented group formed under the same organizational roof. These guys failed miserably to get the job done through catering to the lowest common denominator among us and I'd like to see a group formed that one could actually be proud of and far more open to public scrutiny than these people have 'allowed' in the past.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: EEResQ
"...(BB)you may wish to glance over the earlier replies before condemning the contributors here...."

I have witnessed only two posters on this thread condemn another for their opinion.
One (Muddy) decided that insulting and unprovoked personal attacks were in order (something you seem to have glanced over)...
...while the other (Dragginbut) recently posted the following;

"...I am tired of you and Muddy hijacking every thread you come accross ...the constant in your face whining over spilled milk isn't going anywhere. Not one constructive comment has come out of it....My bottom line here is that your motives and way of bitching all the time is tiresome and does not add to the conversation. All it does is drive people away..."

...which certainly makes one wonder why you would claim the following:

"...The opinions and ideas posted by DB, ...are valid;...why are you climbing all over them for expressing their views?..."

I've never really agreed that different rules of engagement for others not willing to point out the obvious was helpful.
Furthermore, I have brought up quite a few subjects relating to these safety-related issues that sure as heck weren't being talked about in the previous months since.
If you or anybody else up here believes any of these facts to be incorrect... then please do correct me just as soon as possible.
I'm approaching 9 years now asking many of the tougher questions that few in thios community seem willing to ask...and frankly, I'd like to know why there hasn't been any kind of factual challenge to date over this myriad of revelationse...only grumblings and personal attacks over somebody finally saying what needs to be said while you obviously post the statistics to prove it.(you want the Kentucky death stats published and then the entire issue focused much more widely....while several years ago I was point blank asking these same orv leaders what in the heck they were going to do specifically about KY, WV AND TN before you see the pressure being put on today...so, your'e right...my simply replying like a bobblehead with no real-life experience would've added much more to the conversation).

"...BTW, I too am a "nose-to-nose & toes-to-toes" personality type, when the situation calls for it. But, this forum is not the place for that kind of in-your-face behavior....."

I post facts, my friend....period.
Again, if the thoughts expressed here are by any means not true or factual in nature...please tell me so.
We're up here talking about kids becomming maimed for life and killed in a so-called community that obviously can't even get it's crap together enough to make a dent in it....and you're up here along with DB reminding me to be "politicallty correct' about this ongoing carnage while our local orv leaders deny any responsibility for acting like a man in these areas lacking no strong leadership in the first place.
Where would you like the truth to be told, my friend(?)....in yet another non-effective non-profit conference on safety....or does your following insistence even throw THAT venue out the window?

".... And, it doesn't play well during legislative sessions which is where this fight needs to continue...."

So in other words, don't talk 'like a man' about our kids being killed and mained up here on the internet....and certainly don't bring your "I've had enough" attitude to your local legislative seesion....where these orv so-called eaders are preparing the same damn non-commital 'pc' message that we witnessed years ago and that I have described in detail (once again) above.

I think an older Jewish woman named Dr. Laura may have nailed it best when she spoke of how nobody wants to stand up for anything anymore; hurt anybody's feelings or make only decisions based on what is truly the best for our children (her opinion seems to be that this just makes life one heck of a lot easier).

The next time you or DB read about a kid dying in this sport that the two of you are obviously so worried that the community talk 'correctly' about....maybe take the time to give that little Jewish woman a thought or listen, would you?

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: mywifesquad

"..his time is coming..../end quote>


...and so will yours, my friend.

Posted by: blackballed

I've been just fine and thanks for asking.

Anybody who's met me in person..and I'm 'guessing' here...probably pretty much knows that I would nine times out of ten greet them with a great big 'ol smile regardless of whatever has been argued up here in the past...and mean it.

I really don't have much more to say in regards to these important subjects (as you can see in my signature; the very last period of this nasty end game is about to be wrapped up) yet I just wanted to thank my fellow posters for the often stimulating debates that 'I believe' afforded many of the newcomers in this sport a brief synopsis as to exactly how we have gotten to where we are today....an opportunity that was certainly unavailable to them previously. (I'm not a big fan of the 'you just don't understand' or 'what have you done for the sport that compares with my effort' crap that greets most newbie offroaders seeking info with but simple questions in hand...and never will be).

I'll be back to lurk and maybe post a few links with nothing much more said; but I do appreciate atvconnection for having the guts to allow a good number of these stories to be told for information's sake and do hope that God blesses both you and yours, MWQ...as well as every other poster on here that I've had the pleasure of speaking with.

Keep up the good work, guys!

John

Posted by: blackballed

Dragginbutt and Muddy4Life,

It's one thing to cry foul about the facts as presented by a poster up here...yet both of you have sidestepped the opportunity to dispute said facts in every single reply that you've made to me lately...and substitued that chance with constant attacks on my character instead.

Read 'em, guys...and if you're still in denial after doing so...take a look at my signature and then ask yourself exactly what kind of leadership it actually is that you've both been sheepishly defending for all these years...or why that it has always been 'taboo' to talk about it?

Our leaders have had the power for over 20 years to sit each and every one of us on one side of the fence or the other on these safety-related issues...I have pleaded with these same people many times to do so...and all you guys want to talk about 20 years later is how 'positive' we all should be about the carnage we witness STILL occuring all around us or that...(whew!)...thank God nobody that "nobody has had to step up like a man, on that one" regarding what has been happening in the Appalachian region from day one.

I've supported and even defended both of you guys many times also, I'm afraid.

And if either of you can name one person on this forum who has done more of this before I (by gosh) 'dared' to disagree with either one of you...then I could actually somehow understand the abrupt turn around in our friendship one heck of a lot more than I do now.

May the Good Lord bless both you and yours and keep it between the trees,

John

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

"...I have multiple so called dealers in my neighborhood selling cars, auto parts, and ATV's. I stopped by the other day to talk to one so called "dealer" and asked him about safety, training availability etc... the guy was clueless.."


Muddy and I put on a couple of safety training classes in this area several years ago and got pretty much the same reaction. (my present dealer was one of few exceptions and gave us a youth quad on loan).

Again, we can talk about this problem and beat it to death up here on the net...or simply force the people who lead us to actually publish the same results you and I both experience in every single orv publication out there.(both on-line and in print).

Everybody out there demands that our leaders continually paint the orv community and of course the dealers; manufacturers and most importantly orv leadership as doing "everything we can" to keep kids safe and that we're all (by gosh) sticking up for safety in every corner of this country with a zero tolerance policy.

Obviously, this has been all nothing but a big lie over the years and there are but a few of us out here willing to cite the sordid history required....to prove it.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I don't think it is even an issue of knowing what it takes to make things right any more.."


Agreed.
It has simply become an issue or attitude of "zero tolerance" that all legitimate communities have been forced to take; regardless of what profit or non-profit 'career' path that their suppliers and leadership has subscribed to for frankly their own benefit.

Nobody is making money keeping kids safe....and I'd like to see Muddy and the many other quality/passionate trainers out there make a decent living out of it.

Yet if you don't combine true pay-to-play with the above mentioned zero tolerance policies (drinking incl.; as the sledders were finally forced to adopt) and have this edict shouted from the rooftops by every major orv leader out there regardless of the paying membership that they would certainly lose...we'll continue to be be led by those wishing to play both sides of these 'no-brainer' issues for strictly their own benefit; under many different roofs; with absolutely no power or (IMO) true respectability gained.

Posted by: blackballed

I'm trying to convince my state legislator that youth atv safety training should not be subsidized through sticker fees and that each parent should be responsible for paying their own way for these classes. If you want to mandate hands-on training for these kids, fine and dandy....just don't yank my chain with all this crap about how one can afford these several thousand dollar machines...yet can't afford to teach their kids how to use them.(my orv leaders even tried to even triple the subsidy percentage going to their non-profits...yet claim that all other orv funding percentages 'would remain the same'....).

I hear a lot up here about personal and parental responsibility....how about allowing it to start right here in our own community and througth a no-nonsense "pay-to-play" approach that finally/quickly weeds out those who have been the lowest common denominator for so long?

This is basically the same approach that we need to take with motorcyclists concerning non mountain goat type single track trail mileage.
If you want 'me-only' trail mileage....tell the community exactly how much mileage you 'deserve' for the total numbers/hours your group uses the overall system each year...as subsidizing little used minority mileage at the expense of overall access to enthusiasts and their vast majority funding....requires constant need analysis in the long term.

We are letting a lot of enthusiasts 'skate' here in a lot of areas...and if anybody doesn't believe it affects these kids being kept safe in the overall picture....they are kidding themselves.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted byagginbutt:

"...Yeah, I don't know the answer. There are arguments that can be made on both sides. All you have to do is look at boating, or snowmobiles for examples of programs run amok. Ceratinly our foray into Mi single track politics didn't go too well...."

If there are arguments to be made on both sides....then why are you, I and a few others being chided for even making them....while everybody certainly iinvolved in our Oz-like orv leadership; consider it 'beneath them' to even So much as speak to the other side?
For gosh sakes...we're out here pointing out the disparity and contrast between $5 a year for this (supposed) boots-on-the-ground Oregonian orv sticker program and what often exceeds 5 times that for some of these administratively cost-laden 'exclusive' club memberships...so where pray tell is "national" or even local leadership with a quick opinion on the myriad of issues which affect us (along with a hundred 'taboo' subjects such as present volunteer partnerships morphing into future INEVITABLE bid-based maintenance programs) on any level whatsoever?
I'm supposed to respect both sides of the issue....yet can't even find the rudder on this boat or any captain at the helm with a big loud voice attempting to sail it?

"...I am sort of on the fence on the training issue though. At least there is a small incentive for parents to get the training if the factories offer a rebate.. but the problem there is that the CPSC/ATSI training course rules exclude many people that do not fall into their guidelines...."

If the govt. wants to force these people in to adding "x" amount of dollars on to the price of every machine sold aso that everybody involved feels warm and fuzzy-like inside...so be it.
Our problem lies not only in the issue as mentioned...but the fact that we are turning to yet even more training subsidies affecting orv fund monies on a "first-come/first-served" basis....even when we try to get these kids into a better program!
There is no "prove hardship" clause in these "we can't train 'em all" funds; as many times it is families with comparitively 'more' money basically tasking the time to figure out exactly how to spend less of what they have on these classes or even which one is available to their children(contrary to popular belief; many of these people secured the toys that they haul around today both by resourcefulness and frugality).
Mandated hands-on training for everybody?....love it.
Just don't shove these socialistic "if we throw money at them; they'll get their kids trained and all be better people" programs into the mix for the benefit of nobody; as the present ridiculously priced program has unfortunately proved.

"....Worse yet, try and even FIND an instructor these days. I haven't taught in years now. Before that, I was on a wating list for almost two years, only to finally get a training date, then the class gets cancelled because of inclement weather. Not exactly a nice experience...."

I've had the chance to meet a few older instructors (all of them simply burnt out) and IMO, they never had the professional-type leadership needed in this sport over these many decades to ever support (and even sometimes police) their valiant efforts in the first place. It was a great 'business' that could've been a fine cottage industry within our sport had simple market forces been allowed to work their majic (again, the non-profit leader's dirty word rears its ugly head here once again...non-subsidized "privitization").
I truly admire both your and Muddy's very significant contributions to this sport and always will (I couldbn't hold a candle to either one of you on thios most important issue).
Yet I've witnessed just a little as to the hows and whys of all this youth safety-related burnout occuring...and I see few out there besides you, I and a few others relating all of this to a direction that we've been heading that nobody now seems willing to admit to. (which is a leadership-based denial affecting change; regardless of what way one chooses to look at it).

More (hopefully) later; ran out of time.....

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:
"Well, where do I start? I'll tell you this much, I certainly AGREE with BB that the training funds have got to stop coming out of our ORV Sticker dollars...."

I am certainly glad to hear this; as the public was never informed as to any dissention within the ranks by either the DNR or the safety task force when they proposed the tripling of these same subsidies. We get but one side of the story told to us but once every 3 months...with the author (our DNR) not required to give the peon public even 'their' opinion on each and every issue which affects us...one way or the other.(which is no different than the 'private' MMRC so-called representative council...which does not meet in public or give published opinions either with all these millions of dollars presently on the line).

"...When this training was first mandated in Michigan in 1996 for our youth, there was a certain standard that an Instructor HAD to meet in order to even QUALIFY to teach a class. Than, if accepted, he/she took PROPER training [by qualified personal] so they QUAIFIED to teach a LICENSED safety class...."

And you ran (and I imagine still do) a good program; others didn't....while many kids out there went untrained for a lack of qualified instructors or those who weren't trying to charge these kid's parents to sit in on their kid's classes. Allowing instructors to 'sub-contract' these classes didn't work either; as instructors were getting $100 per kid from the fund...subbing them out for $40...and keeping $60 for "administration"!
Again, you ran what I considered a good program, Muddy...I have simply been called every name in the book for 'daring' to expose the rest of that story.

"...The idea behind using a portion of the ORV sticker fund [1 buck out of each 16.25 sticker fee] was so that PROPERLY TRAINED non profit instructors or properly trained LEO could get into this fund in order to make safety training more afforable for families...."

The fund should have been used to train instructors and nothing else. There was no income check or even request for same in the requirements; it was first come/first serve...period. We should have laid the law down concerning hands-on training; paid for as many trainers that wanted to get the proper training (with a pay-back provision if a certain number of kids weren't taught) and allowed the free market system to handle the rest.
Michigan can be a very liberal-minded state; often creating 'victims' out of thin air; not to mention the beauracratic careers 'needed' to serve these people. Off-road enthusiasts are today and always have been far from the poverty line. And if properly training your kid is ndeed something that 'the government' is responsible for?...god help us all.

The Michigan orv public has absolutely no idea as to who is speaking for us right now or even what they are coming up with in our name (safetywise and all other aspects) with untold tens of millions here at stake.
There was absolutely no consensus on regards to the travel management issue in this state (ask John Stewart of the UFWDA if you question this); we have representation on the advisory board presently that isn't even legitimate in terms of their years-ago expired terms...and now...the motorcyclists want to lock out yet even more mileage to the vast majority community after THEIR leadership presided over the worst land closure debacle in the history of this sport!

Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected?

Or do they truly believe that the average atv enthusiast either doesn't care or is isn't even intelligent enough to figure any of this out...or both?

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by blakballed:
"...Is it merely a 'coincidence' that these are the same people pushing for a tripling of these training funding percentages...while at the same time claiming that no other funding percentages will be affected?..."

Response by Muddy4Life:
"...Sorry, and I dont know WHERE you get you information from, but it is incorrect. I was at the meetings when we discussed raising the sticker fund from 16.25 to 25.00 and EVERY area of the ORV fund would have also raised...."
Somebody is feeding you BS.
Bill

(blackballed):
http://mi.gov/documents/ORVAug...ftMinutes_136029_7.pdf (please see "Orv License Fee" on page 3)

and...

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/November2005DraftMinutes_143636_7.pdf (not linkable?)

(please see "Orv Safety Education Workgroup Update"; bottom of paragraph; page 2)

Sorry, Bill.
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself!

Subsidized crap like this simply drives the price up for everybody by effectively reducing funding for legitimate programs already in place....along with any additional benefits that normal and needed fee increases were designed to provide.

I may have unintentionally mixed up the manufacturer's long bastardized safety program with the DOE's (there's still no way that anybody deserves a $100 subsidy per kid to teach a safety class)...but I had to set the record straight once again on just why we have the safety-related mess we're in today...and who's out there trying to not solve; but profit from it. (I don't necessarily include you in this mess, Bill..yet if I don't simply do the math; who will???).

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
(quoting blackballed):
Sorry, Bill.
You can't inexplainedly triple the funding percentage in but one area of a budget...and then come back to claim that no other funding percentages or programs were 100% negatively affected by this...because you bumped up the total budget itself..."

Muddy4Life's reply:
"...I read the minutes and was at the meeting. Once again, the sticker fee's were to go from 16.25 up to 25.00 per sticker and EVERY area of the ORV fund WOULD have DEFINATELY seen an INCREASE in their budget...."

I see that I am going to have to explain this in another manner.
Think of each individual funding program and the percentage that they receive as individual slices of a pie...with all programs expecting to receive a proportionally correct slice of that pie when it is seved up to them from a larger pie pan (funding increase).

When one group tries to (slyly) TRIPLE the size of their piece of this funding pie immediately before the bigger pie is baked...how much LARGER does that entire pie need to be made.... each and every time a larger pie is proposed in the future... to truly make up for these other (now DECREASED) programs....and the proportional increase that they deserve and enjoyed before the one larger slice was cut?

"....The ORV safety side of the fund would have went from 1 buck to 3 bucks..So if you were paying 16.25 for a sticker and it was raised up to 25 bucks, with 2 bucks of this raise going to the ORV safety fund [that puts us now at 18.25], where the hell do you suppose the rest [ $6.75] is going?..."

C,mon, Bill.
No math on the face of this planet put us at "$18.25" for anything....this is yet again another prime example as to how both local and national leadershp (I've pointed this out to even these guys; who, again, loudly protect their non-profit 'buddies')ues) truly view their membership to be stupider than all get out...and it is why many enthusiasts with even an ounce of professionalism across this country shy away from becomming involved with the arrogant bastards trying to pull this crap.

Youth safety is an issue on which all of us can agree on....yet if we can't even trust our own orv leaders NOT to use same as a vehicle in which to cut funding to other legitimate programs...in order to pad their own pockets in the name of give-away subsidies for largely well-off enthusiasts....we're sunk.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...I completely understand your pie method. What im trying to say is that the original percentages that were set forth for this ''pie'' needed to be revamped and looked into...."

(blackballed):
And what I am trying to say here is that...cutting other current orv programs for the sake of safety-related SUBSIDIES is not a legitimate reason to change anything...and that orv leadership all around this country both knows this and is frankly embarrased in regards to these efforts! (not necessarily ashamed enough to stand up like a man to their non-profit 'buddy'about it...but that's another story which reflects just why we as a united community have never stood up for anything significant in the first place).

"...When Law Enforcement takes 33% of the total 16.25 sticker fee and does not even patrol the trails [very much]..."

We have historically rarely formed our individual clubs around any kind of significant partnership with law enforcement and guess what?...if we did...their percentage of our total budget would shrink in direct proportion to our partnership and self-policing programs.

"...these guys cluns around any and harass riders when they are on the trail..."

#1...I really hate that statement....
and #2....I believe in the overall integrity of LEO's to the point that IF they posessed a close relationship with the majority of the offroad clubs out there...that a vast majority of enforcement administrators would see very little need to be out there patrolling our public lands in the first place.

"...there is something wrong with the percentages of each part of this pie and we need to re-think these percentages. Our kids training should receive FAR MORE than 1 buck out of every sticker fee. They SCREWED up the formula's when they were orginated and we need to FIX THEM...."

Again, kids becomming more safe in this sport has never been an issue of dirt poor parents and their inability to 'afford' training. We've never screened for this non-existant problem; no parent worth their salt in the history of our sport has ever complained about it and (frankly) the only ones out there pushing to cut other programs are the only ones standing to benefit from those cuts.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Tell me what OTHER ORV programs that would be ''cut'' for the sake of safety subsidies you so elequently speak of? There would not be ONE single area of the ORV fund that would not also increase as a direct result of an increase of ORV sticker monies. Your talking out your asz here again...."


Bill,
You defensively claim to "understand" how the tripling of a single safety program funding percentage negatively affects all other funding percentages in the overall budget (when these other programs are kept at the same funding percentage level)...and then turn around to claim that a simple boost in the overall budget 'level'...effectively erases the long-term funding damage that these orv leaders have just tried to pull on both the community and their long-time funding partners?

I'd like to address your beef with law enforcement above also...but I first have to highlight the fact (once again) that orv leadership nationwide continues to believe that their membership is just as stupid as you've just vividly illustrated! (when these orv leaders feel that they can get away with the above type of logic or the kind of crap contained in my signature below...it is pretty darn obvious that they have absolutely no respect for the mere 'peons' out here supporting them or certainly any intelligence that we may have beyond these folk's desire for an organization's t-shirt and bumper sticker).

Again, this would all be pretty laughable....it weren't so indisputable and sad.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: EEResQ
"....You folks talk as if your state is the only one affected by problems associated with this activity. You repeatedly refer to ATV / ORV riding as a sport, like high school football or tennis. Well, in the two states with the highest number of kids being killed while engaged in the activety of ATV / ORV riding, KY and WV, very few are killed while engaged in a sporting event. ..."

We have the largest maintained system in the nation and are literally (many) years into debating the correct manner in which to teach children orv safety. (maybe not publicly or out here in the light of day...but that's another story). Both of the states that you refer to have not even scratched the surface as to what has already been attempted here in Michigan (with predictable results); so if debating youth safety involving '21st century' funding issues is not relevant here...and we need to instead start debating whether the act of atving is even a 'sport' or not...I'm lost.

"...#1 In these two states, and a few others, ATV's have become a cheap alternative to a second car or truck for local transportation needs. No Registration Fees, No license Fees, No Insurance Premiums, No Inspection Fees, No Taxes (beyond the initial sale), and No Driver's Training Requirements. And, kids of dirt poor parents are getting killed at a much higher proportion as direct result. I assure you, this is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM...."

The only folks that I have ever seen 'duck' this issue or problem in the 9 long years that "I" have been commenting on this...have been our very own leaders. If you choose to give the people we're supposed to send money into a 'pass' on this...what's your point? I chose to ask the head of the ATVA years ago whether he wanted to go down to Windrock and set up a booth down there (with their name on it) and confront the same people you talk about in person...how far do you believe that proposal got?

"...Yet, dozens of farm kids are killed each year across the country on ATV's. And, you don't think lack of safety training is an ISSUE or a PROBLEM?..."

Uhhhh, Muddy is a pretty well regarded safety instructor and the two of us have even conducted classes together to get more kids trained...are you actually reading these posts or are we simply 'miscommunicating' here?

"...#3 Beyond the initial sale of a new ATV from a dealer, in most rural farming regions or remote mountainous areas of these states, ATV's are bought, sold and traded in much the same way as horses changed ownership 150 years ago. As such, there's nothing to stop a 14-year-old from trading a couple months work on a farm, or in a lumber mill, from riding off on a machine that has a greater propensity to kill him than a passenger car or pickup truck. Where's the ATV safety training programs in this scenario? And yes, this too is both an ISSUE and a PROBLEM. ..."

My friend, with all due respect, you are not going to solve any problems here by challenging the point of sale itself when it happens in some back alley. Legislated responsibility (actually creating rules and then funding their enforcement) has not only been fought tooth and nail locally in these areas for decades...but morphed into a 'stand up like a man' issue that no orv leader in the history of this sport (sorry) has ever dared tackle publicly.
I love what you are saying and it certainly needs to be said...just do me a favor and ask just why the same issues aren't being brought up in every community publication that we have...instead of swept under the carpet in favor of how seemingly 'responsible' all of us are in every other place on the planet.(which is why the latest travel management rule and all these massive closures just got dropped on our heads...through no fault of leadership or anyone else besides the greenies and 'the government').

".....Have all of us here forgotten:
Topic Title: "Stupid Kills? or What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?
..."

What I am proposing that we do....is to start taking a darn close look at exactly just who got us into this safety-related mess, in the first place.

If you can't change a safetyless culture overnight; fine and dandy. Just don't expect me to send money into organizations parented by folks still fighting laws involving helmets on asphalt...as a "don't do as I do; do as I say" approach to any safety-related solution.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE

Trail Maintenance?
Another area that we WASTE ORV funds on. Grant sponsers are being paid $$ to do their part and our trails are in terrible shape. We NEED to look at also OUTSOURCING this work to outside contractors who will be held ACCOUNTABLE for inactions of duties instead of being paid without making SURE the job was done right in the first place.

(blackballed):
We've been in agreement on this for years and this is truly a national issue...yet national leaders still point to just how great the largest system out there is maintained and what a fantastic job their non-profit 'buddies' are doing in maintaining it.
For profit privitization comes at a loss of both power and money to the leaders in this community...and they obviously would rather blatantly blow smoke up all of our arses on probably the most important issue that we face....than lose either.

"... Safety Training?
These percentages were way off from the first day they come up with the one dollar figure...."

(blackballed)
I'm obviously not going to get you to talk about parental responsibility as related to financing their own kid's training or the use of a non-subsidized free market system to support a mandatory hands-on training program...so I am just going to give up. You guys are (again) cutting the funding pie into a much bigger piece for yourselves (unbelievably tripling it in size) at the expense of all other current programs funded...period. The major reason that law enforcement stepped in here to do this job (good or bad) was that not enough kids were being trained "period"...and that 'legally' (according to the orv advisory board meeting minutes) it was the opinion of the state that non-profits doing much of the training...weren't even eligible for grants to begin with. http://www.michigan.gov/docume...04Minutes_116183_7.pdf (page 2 under "Lt. Grey").
A jump from 2,800 kids trained a previous year (one way or another) to over 7,000 trained the next; effectively jump-started the entire process you complain about now....yet what if trainers had actually fought for creating and putting themselves all out on a competitive free market (as opposed to hand-out subsidies)....and cut law enforcement out of a job that they really (in many cases) didn't want to do in the first place?

"...If we are going to RAISE ORV sticker fee's to 25 bucks per sticker, than lets get these damn % modified in each area so that it best beneifits the entire package of the fund...."

(blackballed):
The best method of modifying any orv fund (safetywise) is to create opportunities for competition in the private sector that allow these kids to ne trained in the best program possible at the lowest possible price...minus ANY direct subsidies to the trainers themselves beyond the funding needed to properly train more instructors in a mandatory hands-on atmosphere.
We don't need "safety welfare" for parents...we need good 'ol American free market forces and strong orv leadership without their hands in the cookie jar....to effectively force these parents....to help themselves.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:
'...The State had no ruling on the grant issue for non profit instructors, it was the DNR personal who conviently read into the Administrative rules who got the non- profit instructors kicked out of the program...."

Again, if you read the meeting minutes... http://www.michigan.gov/docume...04Minutes_116183_7.pdf (page 2 under "Lt. Grey")
...the 'state' had no reason to rule on the safety grant issue for non-profits...as it was a state agency's legal opinion already...that non-profits weren't even eligible for safety subsidies in the first place!
Orv leadership was out there stomping their feet and demanding that the 'Attorney General' get involved....and the state run DNR simply looked these guys in the eye as if to say...if you're so darn sure that our lawyers don't know what in the heck they're talking about...YOU spend your own darn money (as opposed to the public's)...and prove it! (which I'm 'guessing' might have resulted in the state seeking monies previously dispersed).

"...It was the DNRs DIRECT Intention to TAKE OVER the entire safety program and run it as THEY saw fit, with no outside involvement what so ever...."

The state had to step in for the simple reason that not enough kids were being trained....period.
None of us were privy to the negotiations leading up to this (as Michigan orv politics is by far and away the largest public embarrasment in this sport)..but tell us...if you guys are wanting to triple the safety-related subsidies today...from what pie-in-the-sky bargaining position were you approaching the the DNR with THEN...and might an attitude of "the average orver is dirt poor and needs 'x' amount per kid in giveaways" drove the state to say 'screw you' ...we'll kill two birds with one stone and finally achieve our goal of getting many more kids trained in ANY kind of manner? (I mean, c'mon, Bill...the department finally had to publish the fact that they weren't going after kids in violation of the training requirement...because there wasn't enough trainers or opportunities to even take the classes!).

"...To a point, they SUCCEDED in getting rid of some pretty darn good Instructors out there in the private sector.Only to have them replaced by some improperly/untrained fly-by-night LEO buddies of their own who dont have much more qualifications than a fly to instruct a class of this nature...."

Nobody wanted to get rid of anybody and it sure as heck wasn't about any 'buddy' relationship with LEOs having a darn site better things to do than teaching kids how to ride atvs or motorcycles. Our local guys around here weren't 'clamoring' for the job; they were all pretty much forced into it and it was and still is a waste of their time brought on by a few non-profits choosing to take a hard line on just how much darn money per kid that they should have received in subsidized monies.

I hate very much simply telling it like it is here, Bill; because I know that you are dedicated to this sport possibly more than anybody I know of; have given a good portion of your life to it and even spoken out more than everybody else in the community combined. (the latest issue being these arrogant and greedy motorcyclist's push to close down all of our 'now' atv accessible trails by executive order in light of their sickening leadership failure and resulting massive land closure in the National Forests).

Yet the locations in which these kids are being killed/injured/maimed in the highest numbers...are about to go through the same mess and struggle with the same problems that we have had in our comparitive "21st century" safety training system very soon...and I'd just as sonn not witness them make the same mistakes that we have made when it comes to portraying both off-road vehicle operators and their parents as some kind of 'helpless' VICTIMS not capable of seeking the free market out to solve their (our) problems.

Again, it's all about "pay-to-play", Bill...and the sooner that our leaders take up that banner and use it to teach us the true personal responsibility inherently contained within that philosophy...the better.

Posted by: blackballed

Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE:
"...The ORV program was not moved from the Dept of Education over to the DNR because kids were not getting trained, it was moved by Executive Order of Jennifer Granholm [Governor] as a direct result of budget restraints and budget re-directions and nothing else..."

Yeah, and the fact that we suddenly went from 2800 kids being trained one year to over 7,000 kids receiving some kind of training the next...had absolutely nothing to do with that decision either. :rolleyes:
No disrespect meant whatsoever, Bill...yet it's becomming to be like trying to hit a moving target with you on these issues. I've written literally pages above of indisputable facts related to both the failures of this program and the very solutions required to fix it (involving even your non-profit working on a competitive rather than a 100% unneeded 'subsidized' level)...and seemingly to you...these facts deserve absolutely no commentary whatsoever. (can you now see why conservative minded enthusiasts have painted Michigan's overall training system as simply all these liberal-minded non-profit's fight for non-existant 'victims' somehow needing subsidized giveaways?).

"...And further, we never DEMANDED that the Attorney General get involved in this ruling, we only requested it...."

Bill....if these leaders are going to cry about how the law has been broken and that (by gosh) you all deserve some amount of money that is due you...then quit arguing silly 'semantics' above and simply PROVE your point to these people.... rather than "requesting" that the state of Michigan to spend our hard-earned money disproving whatever in the heck you folks come up with after there isn't a leg to be stood up upon.
We'll all certainly be on your side if the law is indeed being broken....just don't 'say' it is...and then simply drop the whole matter if and whenm the state actually calls you all on it.

"...Dont you find it IRONIC [at best] that for YEARS the Department of Education had NO PROBLEM reading into the Administrative Rules that allowed non-profits Grant Funding, than when the DNR takes over the program, they read the SAME rules a DIFFERANT WAY? I'll tell you WHY. Their GOAL right from the beginning was to put an END to ANYBODY outside of a LAW ENFORCEMENT agency to STOP instructing. Another words, if you were not into their little LEO click---YOU were OUT OF THE INSTRUCTING PICTURE..PERIOD!..."

Yeah, it's all one big 'conspiracy' that could actually be proven if our overall kid's safety were worth making the effort to do so.
Tell me something...if our orv leaders are so hell fire certain that the state is 100% absolutely wrong on this and that the DOE has been distributing funds properly for all these years...why don't you simply take them to court on it and ask the orv community to help defray your expenses?

Or does paying back all that money; coupled with a knowledge within this community that the parents taking those classes and accepting these funds didn't actually need these ridiculously granted subsidies anyways...give orv leadership some 'cause to pause' as to any actual support coming forth on this issue fron the community itself?

Posted by: blackballed

I believe that we will simply have to agree to disagree here; as I can't even get any kind of acknowledgement from you that parents should be paying for their own kid's safety classes in the first place...or that they should even prove hardship if they feel 'put upon' or victimized when asked to do so.

The liberal mind-set that this sport posesses in relation to safety-related matters. bleeds right into our less than eag