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Posted by: Dragginbutt
It is hard to say which has the POTENTIAL of doing more damage. I think the real place you need to look is the person on the seat... Any rider can cause damage if they refuse to act responsibly while operating their quads. Being aware of the potential damage, and knowledgeble in techniques designed to minimize the impact their machine can do is the key to keeping the damage to the minimum.
Also, I have to point a finger to some of the tire manufacturers out there. I think in some respect, they are too good...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
With holeshots, I assume you are talking a sport machine then. You are half the weight of the normal 4x4 Ute. I also think the actual 4 wheel drive is causing some issues. Most are locked diffs with their solid rear axles.. and the technology used in the fronts is only now starting to deal with the uneven rate of spin that occurs when turning. All this adds to the tearing up of grass etc.
I still think however it is the person pulling on the bars that may contribute the most to the situation. Let's face it, every guy with a sport Ute has on occasion taken their machine out to see just how deep they can get it stuck in the mud and still pull through. It doesn't take too long or too many folks running through a mud hole or on soft ground, and you have the ruts.
I have to point a finger at your local area owner though as well. There is a lot to be said about proper trail design, that eliminates the potential problem areas.. and most importantly, there is the subject of trail maintenence that should be addressed. Some of us have ridden large trail systems, and we can say from experience that maintaining trails is a full time job. Proper building technique is important because it keeps that effort to manageble levels.
I know there will be a lot of howling over the lame trails when grooming is introduced.. but it is a far side better to have a well groomed albiet lamer trail, then no trail at all. The real reason we ride is to get off the couch and away from all the hassles of our 'Normal" life... I can deal with Lame trails...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yup.. that is the normal deal with clubs taking on these kinds of responsibilities, then nobody stepping up to the plate. It is a tough deal, since we all have other things to do for the most part.... I don't know what the answer is.. it is a shame.. since the land owner is just going to be left with a very bad taste in his mouth, and the club riders will be without another in a long list of trails that could have been saved...
Posted by: dsdrew
Posted by: dsdrew
Posted by: dsdrew
Posted by: Scooter86
Over the summer, I had the opportunity to ride at a location that has seen virtually no atv traffic over the past year. I rode by myself for a bit, while waiting for a group of 4x4 riders to show up. As the place had some sizeable ruts from past 4x4ute use, I spent a lot of time picking lines and riding on top of the ruts. All in all, it had been a dry summer, but there were a bunch of wet spots on the trails. For the first few hours everything went fine, and I made multiple loops with little problem. Then the 4x4's showed up. I followed one couple as they first entered the trail, and couldn't believe how much mud and such they were displacing and sloshing around. In some places I began to have trouble staying on top of the ruts as everything was becoming slippery. This couple wasn't even going fast, in fact, I had to keep stopping to give them a lead as I was just above idle in first gear. Now these were open class utes with the big wheel/tire kits on them, but still I couldn't believe how much dirt they were moving. Sure, I could of been spinning and kicking up big roost at will too, but at those speeds you would hardly have known I was there. So what is your opinion. Do sport quads or utes cause more trail destruction?
Posted by: Scooter86
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Originally posted by: dsdrew
It is all on the rider....Both machines could make hardly no ruts..or they could tear the place up..
True. I was just amazed at how much dirt was churned up relative to speed by those utes with aftermarket mud tires. That, and the ruts were already way bigger than any sport could have made(well, maybe now the Outlaw could)
Posted by: Scooter86
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Originally posted by: Sparky8370
Neither. This is tree hugger ammo.
No way, I'm not a tree hugger by any stretch. I just think this is a viable topic, especially since the trail in question is closed in large part due to deep ruts.
Posted by: Scooter86
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
It is hard to say which has the POTENTIAL of doing more damage. I think the real place you need to look is the person on the seat... Any rider can cause damage if they refuse to act responsibly while operating their quads. Being aware of the potential damage, and knowledgeble in techniques designed to minimize the impact their machine can do is the key to keeping the damage to the minimum.
Also, I have to point a finger to some of the tire manufacturers out there. I think in some respect, they are too good...
While this is true to a degree, the trail was being churned up more by the 4x's at 5 mph than I had been doing while cruising around at a speed that averaged more like 25 or 30mph. Personally I would love to have an IRS utility to play around on, so I am not really looking to knock them. I just found it sad that this particular facility has a decent set of trails and a lot of potential for the landowner, but he has had to basically shut down in part due to big 4x4's rutting the place out. No solid rear axle quad can make ruts as deep these without running rediculously huge tires.
Posted by: Scooter86
Well, there are some grooming issues definately. I am just a third party out of the loop and am not out to sully anyone (or any organizations') name. From what I have gathered though, there are certain entities that had promised monies and labor for trail maintenance to this particular trail owner in return for the use of his land. What was offered and what has, in actuality been given are significantly different amounts. Kind of upsetting as I am a member of this organization, at least until my current membership runs out
Posted by: Scooter86
I am not a NYTRO member, no. I really don't want to publicly slam this particular entity yet, as I think they COULD offer a good product with some work. Unfortunately, I have had and heard more negatives than positives this past year.
BTW, I would love to ride Chestnut Ridge with you. Hit me up with a PM if you have a date in mind.
Posted by: Scooter86
That's all right. Sounds like typical NYS bs to me!
Posted by: Markymannn
Here's my experience.
There is a public park out by me they open to sleds and quads in the winter. (Scoot86, Chestnut Ridge outside Buffalo if you're interested). It's like 95% sleds there. Well they pack the snow down pretty good. I come out in my 350# sport quads and ride on top of the snow pack. I've seen some people with sport ute's weighing twice that much, aftermarket tires, and they dig right through the pack down to gravel/grass.
The ute's definitely tear up a trail more just because of their weight, and make it worse if they have the mudder tires
Posted by: Markymannn
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Originally posted by: Scooter86
Kind of upsetting as I am a member of this organization, at least until my current membership runs outhr>
Let me guess................NYTRO?
Posted by: Markymannn
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Originally posted by: Scooter86
BTW, I would love to ride Chestnut Ridge with you. Hit me up with a PM if you have a date in mind.
I just hope Chestnut Ridge is open this year. 5 miles from my house. First there has to be snow on the ground for them to open it to ATV's. You have to have reg & ins & a park permit available through Erie County Parks. But last year when Erie County had budget problems, they closed the park to everyone. So no riding. Ironically they couldn't fund the one guy to open the park's gates, but they could fund a bunch of deputies to patrol the park and cite tresspassers. Tresspassers being hikers, sledding, snowmobiling, and atv's, everyone and everything
Sorry for being off-subject
Posted by: jaggers2e42
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Originally posted by: dsdrew
It is all on the rider....Both machines could make hardly no ruts..or they could tear the place up..
yeah anytime you let one of those babys rip the $hit is going to fly.
Posted by: ajd187
Based on what I saw that first time you and I went riding, I would have to say it's the utes. There's no way the sports could cut ruts that deep. They dont' have the ground clearance and the tires aren't nearly as wide.
Posted by: Sparky8370
Neither. This is tree hugger ammo.
Posted by: Sparky8370
No, that's not what I meant. It's a public forum. They can come on here and cite threads like this in their arguments.
Posted by: Sparky8370
They'll use anything they can for ammo. Well, I guess this one does say trail damage not enviromental though. They believe that ohrv trails should be for walking and biking too. When was the last time you saw a walker registering his shoes or a bicycler registering their bicycle? It's our money that goes to building and maintaining these trails. As far as damage I don't think the ute guys would see their ruts as damage as they can still pass fine. Just as we wouldn't see our ruts as damage. Our ruts aren't as deep, maybe a couple inches on the highly traveled or wet sections.
Posted by: Sparky8370
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
It is hard to say which has the POTENTIAL of doing more damage. I think the real place you need to look is the person on the seat... Any rider can cause damage if they refuse to act responsibly while operating their quads. Being aware of the potential damage, and knowledgeble in techniques designed to minimize the impact their machine can do is the key to keeping the damage to the minimum.
Also, I have to point a finger to some of the tire manufacturers out there. I think in some respect, they are too good...
I think a lot of people go for the most aggressive tire they can find. Personally, I have hloeshots. They work great for most situations and barely leave any evidence you were there. You can ride accross a lawn and not leave a mark, yet they can pull you right through a mud hole.
