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Posted by: Raptorx44
The Eco's are not as bad down here but what i can't understand is they complain about little 4 wheeler trails and yet the Urban sprawl and construction and does way more damage! There really needs to be a better union of atv enthusiasts to give everyone a more powerful voice in Washington and all of the US.
Posted by: blackballed
I've got the "Gods" of our orv program here in Michigan claiming that we have so much irreversibly damaged the land with our four-wheeled (not 2-wheeled 'of course') land rapers....that we should SHUT DOWN some of our trails "for study"...and then look into building parallel trails right beside them.
In a nod to the "Challenge to the Environmental Lobby" topic that was closed.....why do you think environmentalists get so jacked up over desecration of the land...when OUR community won't even fix or properly MAINTAIN what they have with the proper equipment...or continually propose busting out MORE trails each and every time the heavily used ones aren't "maintainable" by the outdated methods they (cyclists in Michigan) bank on their maintenance money from?
I'm sorry, but when I sit at these meetings in a state with the largest trail system...and nobody has the intelligence or the desire to even so much as debate this....why am I supposed to go out and get mad at some environmentalist who doesn't want more trails busted out on account of the grant sponsor who maintains them....doesn't believe in the use of modern equipment? (in other words, he doesn't want that maintenance money flying out of his pocket and into something as "ridiculous" as privatized programs with skilled equipment operators).
It is unbelievable to me how most people will sit at these meetings with the stupidest of looks on their faces....all the while allowing the most ridiculous of proposals to be passed off as fact without a word from anybody.(I guess if you can't get 'em to get comment on their public meeting being cancelled for 6 months with absolutely no word from anybody on anything orv related...how should I expect that they have the desire or intelligence to be engaged any further?).
This is not a matter of "us against them"....it is a matter of keeping the good people within our ranks who would argue some of the more ridiculous claims of the environmental movement...instead of watching them walk away from not only apathy; but a desire to associate themselves with folks who don't just sit there with their mouths half wide open and a 'glassy' look in their eyes.
You've got to at least "appear" that you're (at the very least) as smart as them...before you'll ever have a chance in hell of ever even playing in the same league with 'em.(many folks don't mind fighting for a cause..yet they would just as soon not be embarrased by the guy or gal standing beside them while they're at it).
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Raptorx44
"...There really needs to be a better union of atv enthusiasts to give everyone a more powerful voice in Washington and all of the US..."
I agree, my friend...yet what kind of leadership will prevail in this group; when they are faced with actually confronting those within our community on the most 'drastically important' issues of the day?
Yes, you can form a "non-profit"....write off every trip your family takes; attend "seminars" all over the country and try to convince folks that you don't take anybody's crap on issues such as safety and enforcement....yet are you the one willing to go down into these hollers of the Appalachians and start telling these people what they must do before effectively helping to ruin this sport for everybody else? Are you willing to head up a group that effectively puts helmets on every bozo and his kid at Windrock and kicks half the people out of there who think that doubled up riding is a god-given right?
The bottom line here is that the CPSC didn't hold those hearings in West Virginia because "it seemed like a nice place"...nor did the ATVA arrive there with there mouths shut in regards to what was actually going on in that region because "it just happened that way".
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: ktmguy70
"....Most of the trails I frequent have No maintenace program at all, many our private.These private trail systems rely on Volunteers such as Us, to use equipment, and Maintain the trail.When you are in charge of keeping the trail maintained, you tend to do less damage...."
I agree 100% with the need for volunteer maintenance on private trails; yet in a state like Michigan with over 3,000 miles of public trails....we're being told that privatized maintnenance with modern equipment isn't possible because "we haven't found a piece of equipment that will fit down a motorcycle trail" (which is a blatant example of how this monopoly leadership has have brainwashed the DNR into believing the only machine that has ever 'mattered' in regards to this modern equipment issue is the one in a steep sales decline).
The fact of the matter is this. The vast majority of kids today have shown no interest in the volunteer program at any level.
What that leaves us with is the hard reality of a "pay-to-play" system throughout this country that assures the needs (be they legitimate or not) of this environmental wacko community are being met on (at the very least) a DAILY BASIS. There is environmental damage being done every day out there that somebody has got to fix and pay for. Unfortunately, when that money starts coming out of everybody's sticker or registration money in a larger way....more of the people affected by this financially will (hopefully) play a larger role in helping to put a stop to it.
"....One thing I would Love to see is trail systems, Both private and state/federal Have a system where riders can ride for free in return for volunteer help. In return for a free trail pass "x" amount of hours must be pledged to maintaining, and upgrading the trails. Face it, an Incredible amount of money is Spent on trail maintenance (not that they all get maintained), by going with experienced Volunteers, the price per pass gets dropped some, as that money is no longer needed, or funneled into new trail systems. Too many People I know Are more than willing, and Have the talents and equipment to do this, and im sure its the same in alot of places.This serves 2 purposes, It keeps the some of the Greed out of the Trail maintenace program, by ensuring that the people with the outdated equipment dont hold all the cards, because " Now there would be an alternative."and secondly, it would teach a bit more respect fopr the sytem to begin with, after all, none of us wants to work to ride, we just want to do it. Keeping damage to a minimum, keeps maintenance to a minimum...."
I agree with this concept and have suggested something similiar in the past. As I told the DNR in Lansing last Thursday....why have all these groups fighting over trail maintenance grant money....when they should be all working together BEHIND this heavy machinery so as the operator of same never has to leave his seat! (what do you think the difference of a bid to maintain trails is when each contractor is simply asked to bid by the hour of straight equipment run time and no manual labor?).
The problem we have with this concept here in "Michigan"....is that we've already caught their leadership (twice) "off-the record" claiming that "we are REALLY only interested in maintaining trails the width of our handlebars"....WHILE AT THE SAME TIME DEMANDING THAT THEY NOT ONLY RIDE EVERY TRAIL EVER BUSTED OUT...BUT THAT HUNDREDS OF MORE "EXCLUSIVE" TRAILS FOR THEMSELVES ONLY.... BE BUILT RIGHT AWAY!
Parallel trails won't do...these guys want to keep the atvs off "their" land and have had no problem electing known anti-atvers into their leadership positions (why do you think the ATVA is the 'red-headed step-child' of the AMA....and always will be?).
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
"....Creating a parrallel trail with the same methods used on the original trail is completely idiotic. A waste of time and money. I think we all agree on that....."
I 'wish' that I was just kidding you here, my friend; yet I have not been able to get ONE PERSON in this state to question what these guys have put forward on this issue here!. Again, it comes down to that "blank look syndrome"...why in the heck would/should "I" stand up in any professional or public situation...with a bunch of guys/gals who can't even intellectually assess even the most basic of issues regarding our sport?
I mean, c'mon..if you can't figure THIS one out and immediately respond to ti..how in the heck do you get out of bed in the morning?.
".....I think the problem there in MI is it isn't in the "trail manager's" financial interest to actual fix the trails. If he fixes them correctly, then he won't be able to get as much money. Though if I was on an appropriations committee, I'd be asking questions about WHY do the trails keep having the same problem. Demand a real fix. Not what has been done....."
We have sandy soil here in Michigan that simply demands more trips around the system with the proper equipment (which is where these cycle guys claim that less bone-jarring whoops bring nothing but faster speeds...the problem being that they are the biggest speed violaters on the trail!). Privatization and machinery spells the end of these club's money coming in, the job done right and an edict from the rest of us in the orv community that cyclists either START getting along with eveyrbody...or be quickly viewed as the arrogant elitists that there is no question they have been.
"...The idea was floated to me to charge a fee for use at the above mentioned riding area. That didn't go over well with my friends. Not sure how well the work for play would play out as well. Most people think that their $25/2 year fee should be enough. They have no clue...."
They DON'T have a clue....and all these groups who have been feeding these issues to our community on a "silver spoon"...so as to NOT upset that subscription or club dues money coming in every year that pays their salaries...have made the "involved" riding public appear even dumber.
Here's a good one...I've got the motorcycle "Gods" in our Michigan community claiming that there is a good chance that we will have 25% more trail on the ground by 2008 (this is after spending $4 million of our long frozen sticker money through legislation that nobody was privy to helping form/knew nothing about and rudely/arrogantly ATTACKED for even so much as DARE questioning the formation/introduction thereof).
THAT'S OVER 750 MILES of new trails...yet you can't even get one person at these board meetings to ask "where" in the hell any of these trails would be.....or what they would even so much as consist of!!! ("Oh...and 'by the way'....we're going to triple the amount taken out of every sticker and give $600,000 to our instructors every year in guaranteed income if they can get the kids to sign up @ $60 per and train 20 in an afternoon....).
I'm sorry, but if you're that slack-jawed "out of it" when the issues are introduced to us only once every 3 months (or "6" if the "Gods" don't 'want' to hold our "public" meeting)...I don't want to even risk my life riding with you to the meeting.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
Creating a parrallel trail with the same methods used on the original trail is completely idiotic. A waste of time and money. I think we all agree on that. Given that we don't get a lot rain around here, the mud holes aren't a big problem. There are some, but it's not a huge problem. You also really don't see the big mudding quads here either, it's mainly sports.
One of my favorite places to ride has recently undertaken a HUGE program to rework the trails. They are a little less than 1/2 way done with the rest of the work to resume in 2006, I assume in the spring after the snow melts. The new ways of doing the trails is so much better. Before they used boards, timber, rocks, block, etc. to stop erosion. That's all well and good, but the water goes to the edge of that stuff and just creates the rut over there.
I think the problem there in MI is it isn't in the "trail manager's" financial interest to actual fix the trails. If he fixes them correctly, then he won't be able to get as much money. Though if I was on an appropriations committee, I'd be asking questions about WHY do the trails keep having the same problem. Demand a real fix. Not what has been done.
The Eco guys don't complain a lot about sprawl, because they are part of that problem. This is becoming a huge issue where I live. Fresno is very spread out. The more land the city (and adjacent cities) grow over, is less farm land that's in production. Not only the direct property that's developed, but the adjacent property as well. The city I live is was about 32,000 people when I moved here in '83 (that was the '80 census figure). Now we are pushing 80,000 people. That's almost tripple in size. Nearly all of that development was single family homes on lots less than 10,000 sq ft. Very few apartments. We don't do the high rise thing either. Most apartments are usually no more than 2 levels. Maybe a few 3-level complexes.
There's now a local push by some to move back to the core of the city and grow up, and not out.
Out here in CA, most all of the trails are gov. owned and operated. There are a few tracks that are owned by private individuals, but not many. I do like the idea of exchanging work time, for passes. The idea was floated to me to charge a fee for use at the above mentioned riding area. That didn't go over well with my friends. Not sure how well the work for play would play out as well. Most people think that their $25/2 year fee should be enough. They have no clue.
Posted by: ktmguy70
Sadly its a Fact of life anymore, that trail systems are used Mostly for the enjoyement of swamp mongers who's entire existence hinges on being able to turn the little water hole on the trail into a Bottomless Pit with 29.5 inch tires, lockers, lift kits, etc..
Most of the trails I frequent have No maintenace program at all, many our private.
These private trail systems rely on Volunteers such as Us, to use equipment, and Maintain the trail.
When you are in charge of keeping the trail maintained, you tend to do less damage.
In Fact, One thing I would Love to see is trail systems, Both private and state/federal Have a system where riders can ride for free in return for volunteer help. In return for a free trail pass "x" amount of hours must be pledged to maintaining, and upgrading the trails. Face it, an Incredible amount of money is Spent on trail maintenance (not that they all get maintained), by going with experienced Volunteers, the price per pass gets dropped some, as that money is no longer needed, or funneled into new trail systems. Too many People I know Are more than willing, and Have the talents and equipment to do this, and im sure its the same in alot of places.
This serves 2 purposes, It keeps the some of the Greed out of the Trail maintenace program, by ensuring that the people with the outdated equipment dont hold all the cards, because " Now there would be an alternative."
and secondly, it would teach a bit more respect fopr the sytem to begin with, after all, none of us wants to work to ride, we just want to do it. Keeping damage to a minimum, keeps maintenance to a minimum.
Posted by: Elkaholic
Jeff Sax, John Koster, Eva Davies, and
The Snohomish County Republican Party
Proudly invite you to join us in…
Forests for people
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
saving our recreation areas
from wild sky
- presents -
Congressman Richard Pombo
Thursday
August 18th
11:30AM
Free BBQ Reception at Ed&39;s Apples
Directions: One mile east of Sultan on HWY 2,
Turn left "North" off Hwy 2 at McDonalds/Shell/Chevron (Rice Road).
The Farm is located on the left approximately 3/4 mile from McDonalds.
Follow Signs to Event
13420 – 339th Avenue SE (Sultan)
Please join us for a BBQ with Congressman Pombo!
U.S.Congressman Richard Pombo (R-CA) is Chairman of the House Resources Committee. He will take an aerial tour of the proposed Wild Sky area.
Congressman Pombo stands between us and those who would restrict the use of our public lands. This is your chance to talk with Congressman Pombo about Wild Sky.
Let&39;s show Congressman Pombo that we want to protect the recreational use of this land for future generations.
Paid for by the Snohomish County Republican Party
