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Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
There's TONS of room for ALL of the outdoor enthusiasists in the forest lands..But the enviro wacko's think they run and own the woods..It is up to every outdoor person to make sure that they personally do the right thing when they are using the woods,and it dont matter if your an ATVer,dirtbiker,boater,hunter,fisherman,ect ect ect..
Get educated by a professional user first,than use the outdoors the right way.
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
QUOTE*Regarding ruts, trails and stagnant water, it is not an irrelevant complaint. These types of scars to the natural landscape are accelerated ten fold when just five or six ATVs traverse the same trail twice in one day. The damage done by ATVs is incomparable to a deer trail that may be three or four inches wide after six months use by two or three deer.END OF QUOTE*
Exactly what the hell do you expect Off Road enthusiasts to do,not ride anywhere?Look at the BIG PICTURE here with the economic inpact that ORVing has for the communities that allow riding in their area. In Michigan,we have folks that DEPEND on ATVers and dirtbike riders to come to their area's to help support their local economy by riding in their area[motels,fuel,food,jobs, ect]..Start bitching about a few scars that Off road folks leave on the land,and pal,you've just shut down alot of the funds that flow into their city that help keep that city afloat in the first place..
There are millions of acres of land for a variety of Off road adventures,keeping folks on the right trail is essential for proper management of the land..But to sit here and tell me how important my rutts are to the overall developement of the forest,and how much damage is caused by stagnant water from my ATV being on a designated ORV trail,is alot of BS IMO.
What the hell,logging trucks leave more rutts in a day than 10 ATVers can leave in a week,beside's,I dont think the local economy is going to build a department store anytime soon over my rutts on a designated trail.
Your complaint only fuels the tree huggers aganda's.
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I know all about ATV--Dirtbike education,im a licensed DNR Off Road Vehicle safety instructor here in Michigan and am also the Director of one of the larger ORV safety associations in Michigan.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I beleive that 95% of Off Road enthusiasts are very responsable operators and do the proper thing when out on the trails..I do not beleive that the forest lands that WE pay for thru our own tax dollars,needs to be shut down because of a FEW indescriminate ORV users.The greenies will lead the un-informed public to beleive that ANYONE riding ANY type of motorized off road vehicle is no good for the forest lands.This is just bad public relations IMO..The greenies make up false reports in regards to injury statistics ect,in an attempt to achieve land closers,and many times,will WIN..
Instead of land closers,we need to beef-up law enforcement on the trails..We dont need to spend 25 bucks an hour to pay some Department of Natural Resource officer to patrol these trails either..In my town,we have specialized [non officers] who write parking tickets to violators,they make 8-10 bucks an hr..Each State could put together a special task force of these same type of trail enforcement officials who's job is to inform riders and when needed,write tickets for violations..
Education is a must..I would make it mandidtory that ALL ORV users,regardless of age,should be forced to take a safety course from a PROPERLY licensed ORV safety Instructor at least once and than every 10 yrs thereafter.In Michigan,we have over 300 ORV safety Instructors,and maybe 45 of them are properly trained..A WELL INFORMED ORV user,usually makes for a well behaved operator..
Every Highway throughout the entire world has a few drivers that dont follow the laws of the roadway..I dont see any highways being closed down because of a few of these idiots,instead,when they are caught,they are FINED heavily..The samething should apply to our trail system IMO..
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Most States allow the use of a farm implemented tractor on their County roadways as long as it has the diamond shaped farm sign visable from the rear,many pickup trucks run aggressive tires on these same roadways as well..Look at the damage these tires could cause to the roadways they come into contact with..When damage occurs,the road commission sends out a worker to fill the holes up,no big deal here..
If trails were managed correctly by those that are familier with trail maintenace,the few agressive tires you do see on the trailway could be readily repaired,as needed too..I dont blame aggressive tires for our errosion of trails,I blame poor management for the DNR and forest service..
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Yep,
thats EXACTLY what the DNR would LOVE to see the ATVers and Dirtbikers do,FIGHT amongst each other over WHO is responsable for enviro damage..It is STUPID to argue this issue in front of the DNR.They would like nothing more than to see us fighting over land use rights ect..Trails would be shut down faster than an 18 yr old male could lick the sweat off Britney Spears thighs.
I agree that some issues between us need to be addressed,I dis-agree that the DNR need to get involved in these conversations.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
QUOTE--The DNR could care less who brings good management ideas forward or whether those ideas "upset" one group or the other....just as long as those models convey the true spirit of a multi-use trail system that balances the needs of those out there using the resource.END OF QUOTE-
First off,I completely disagree with that comment..I am completely convinced that if the ORV trail program was completely left in the hands of the DNR for the State of Michigan,that there would be NO MOTORIZED recreational vechicle activity in the forests of this State at all,PERIOD!
QUOTE---
Just before I left a club up here over lack of leadership and an admitted unwillingness to get involved in anything resembling the political issues at hand; I begged them to get involved beforehand with the law enforcement in any area that they may ride and develop meaningful relationships between these same people. (talk at that meeting immediately turned to what the new bumper sticker and t-shirt should look like).
What do you know...a new riding area opens up and they all pile in their trucks to go up and ride it.
When the tickets are issued :rolleyes:...they immediately get up on the internet and call these officers AND THE ENTIRE DNR every name in the book...crying about how things are so "unfair"....all the while shouting down my insistence that they need contact the agency involved for a simple one-on-one conversation that would prevent same from ever happening again. How do you reason with even organized groups who let things like this happen to them?ents of mine that have to endure this unprofessional behaviour from someone who is suppose to protect and serve the very people that they work for..END OF QUOTE--
What BB is so elagantly forgetting to tell you about the above riding story is that the DNR was virtually the only folks in the entire County boardship meetings that wanted to TURN DOWN the riding priveledges in the same county where the folks were ticketed.Just how in the HELL do you expect riders to feel good about contacting these same DNR guys for a one on one conversation of this riding area when it was these same guys that did'nt want the riding area opened in the first place?And he also forgot to tell you of the complete arrogance an unprofessionalism that these same officers displayed when they issued tickets..He also forgot to tell you that when these tickets went in front of the Prosocuting Attorney for that county,that many of them were DROPPED!
I have a meeting I need to get to,so I'll have to comment on the rest later.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
QUOTE---
The second thing you must unsderstand is that the DNR in Michigan finally stood up and took notice of the fact that certain major instructors here in Michigan (and I'm not talking about Muddy here) were raping the general public in regards to training fees and a host of other issues to the point where the DNR took somewhat of an over correction in the other direction to stop it. This soured the instructors not smart enough to quit publicly bashing the department/threatening to sue them and did absolutely nothing on either side to solve the problem at hand.
What I'm saying here is that you have to have folks intelligent enough to DEAL with the DNR and understand how the department works before you will ever bury the hatchet with them
END OF QUOTE--
Sorry,but even this is not true..The DNR made it their AGENDA to try and model the ATV safety classes after their Marine,Hunter,and Snowmobile classes,in which ALL of these classes do NOT incorporate evaluating a youths skill level while riding their ATV. You simple pay your 25 bucks,bring your kid to one of their classrooms filled with 25-50 students,show them a few video's from the manufactures,have a question and answer session with an UNQUALIFIED and IMPROPERLY certified ATV Safety Instructor,take a 50 question test,and if you get 70% of your test correct,the DNR will issue you your safety certificate.All of this would take about a total of 3 hrs at best..Lets see here Blackballed? 50 students X 25 bucks per student should = 1.250 bucks the way I do my math..Now you tell me EXACTLY WHO is RAPING who here?
And the sad part here is that the youths that take these safety classes from these improperly trained morons are not learning a darn thing in regards to how to PROPERLY operate their ATVs.The REAL Instructors were NOT soured with the fact of the DNR takeover of these classes or the money we lost,we were pissed that we spent HRs and DAYs of our OWN time in Lansing Michigan attempting to inform the very DNR guys that blackballed accusses us of not having the intelligence to deal with,about the safe and responsable way to do these safety classes.Only to have these same irresponsable DNR folks,do things that violated administrative rules that govern these classes.
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QUOTE--
The number one key to solving the root issues is education, and self policing. I don't think we need more tickets...."
I guess my question is...if even some of these major riding clubs don't feel that there is any need whatsoever to partner with law enforcement....what choice do these guys have
END OF QUOTE---
Are your CRAZY Blackballed?Do you realize the amount of man hrs the riding public has put into trying to WORK with the DNR here in Michigan,only to have the same DNR want to turn away riding area's in County's that have the authority/jurisdication to open them.Do you know how many event permits that are turned down?Do you know how many of the DNR quote ORV laws to fit their own agenda's instead of quoting the REAL ORV laws of this State??You SERIOUSLY need to do you damn home work before you start accussing the riding public of not wanting to partner with the DNR.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Blackballed,
you are so full of -hit,I dont even know where to begin,or even IF I want to start?
You admitted that the DNR will often take contrary postions to ours[ORV Operators]..If so,than why do you feel that the riding public has to kiss the DNRs ass to get anything done in this State[the DNR are suppose to work FOR US not AGAINST us] or WHY we have to accept their low life arrogant attitudes when they stop us on a trail?I dont know about YOU,but I'll allways start out by GIVING respect to others I first meet,but you damn better beleive that I expect RESPECT BACK in return for giving it..I dont have to ''accept'' this type of behavior from anybody,nor do I have to ''accept that 'THIS IS LIFE and GET OVER IT---ORV Operators help pay these guys [DNR] wages and they took an oath of office when they accepted their job to PROTECT and to SERVE..I did'nt see a damn thing anywhere in the DNR training manual that gives it officers the right to be arrogant,flambouyant and disrespectful when they make routine stops of riding citizens that are lost and/or in distress.
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QUOTE--"....Just how in the HELL do you expect riders to feel good about contacting these same DNR guys for a one on one conversation of this riding area when it was these same guys that did'nt want the riding area opened in the first place?...."END OF QUOTE---....
BLACKBALLS RESPONSE-with the fact being...that you must DEAL with a good portion of the people you meet in this life... whether you are "mad at them" or not.
I mean, just what is this community all about?
No John,you see,when somebody does the riding community wrong,[such was the case with the DNR being virtually the only entity that did not want the 4 County roadways opened in the LP meetings]we dont plan on going over now and kiss their ass and ask for THEIR guidance when we know DARN well its these guys that dont want us riding in this county in the first place.You can go over and kiss their ass if YOU want,but I choose not to..
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"....And he also forgot to tell you of the complete arrogance an unprofessionalism that these same officers displayed when they issued tickets..."
BLACKBALLS RESPONSE--"Gosh', Bill....your club darn well refused to talk to the DNR about this incident because the mean 'ol officers you encountered didn't hand out 'candy' to everybody after they wrote those tickets? I run into unprofessional people everyday....yet my finding has always been that a talk with their superiors is usually the best way to prevent that kind of behavior from affecting anyone else.
Once again John,DNR officers are paid to PROTECT and to SERVE..Nobody asked for candy to be handed out instead of tickets,but when these lost and distressed riders REQUESTED directions to get back on the right trail and the officers did'nt budge a finger of assistance,[only MORE arrogance]the public image of these officers will be dismisal at best.And yes,their superiors were contacted.
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"....He also forgot to tell you that when these tickets went in front of the Prosocuting Attorney for that county,that many of them were DROPPED!...."
(LOL!)BLACKBALLS RESPONSE
Well then....a good 'ol "conversation" with the DNR before those cases ever took up my time and my tax money....might've just caused everybody to go home happy....wouldn't of it?
You see, Bill...and this is something I tried to impress upon your club before I left...your riding club is supposed to set an example for all others in the orv community.
When you go to ride somewhere completely unfamiliar....you get with the proper authorities.
When a problem arises with those same authorities....you try and work things out internally with these same people (not bash them and the entire department while hollering about how you will see them "in court").
Much of the riding community is pretty much fed-up with the arrogant style of many DNR officials in this State..Their inability and unwilllingness to work WITH riding clubs and arrogant ORV stops,have divided much of the DNR and the riding public..I totally agree that we need to make some amends here,but this is a give and take situation.And so far,to much has been TAKEN away from ORV enthusiasts in this State.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
We agree on a LOT of issues...the problem has been that Muddy was forced to 'partner' with leaders of the motorcycle community who (also) got their hands slapped by the state and their training funds taken away END OF QUOTE---
I was'nt forced to partner with ANY cycle group..And whats even funnier yet,is BB tells you readers that these guys got their hands 'slapped' by the State..Now mind you,these SAME guys that BB accuses of having their hands 'slapped' by the State,are the SAME guys that the DNR 'personally' hand picked as their reveiw and advice commitee with the new ORV safety program and assistance in re-writing some of the ancient ORV laws we have here in Michigan.Are'nt these guys that just got their hands 'slapped' concidered so awful by our State??
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------QUOTE--I like Bill and will always have a ton of respect for what he's done for this sport. Yet when I implore him to ask the tough questions of these guys "behind the curtain" here in Michigan?...I think he finds it 'difficult' to weigh the record-busting $600,000 per year these guys are pushing for presently to train on the one hand...and the simple difference between right and wrong on the other END OF QUOTE
Me afraid to ask questions?ARE YOU CRAZY?--I think it was ME that stood up in the Febuarary 9th ORV meeting and 'pointed fingers' directly at the DNR for their inept attitude towards our States ORV safety cirriculm..And if you were there,you'd know my speech was harsh and to the point..So harsh,that it was that particular speech that identified many of the safety issues that the DNR had failed to bring even one ounce of concern to,and promoted the DNRs ORV safety committee that is in exsistance RIGHT NOW.
I have never been accussed of not asking questions and not pointing fingers when they need pointing [except from BB]..If anything,my peers have told me that I need to 'cool my jets' sometimes..And I certainly dont need BB to tell ME the differance between right and wrong..Money will never get in the way of my personal beliefs..Years ago,when I was a Union Rep,the company would sometimes try 'buy' tactics to sway me to vote on issues that would benefit their company instead of their employees..I could'nt be BOUGHT than,and I be damned if I'll let $$ change my beliefs now,so you can just kiss your 600.000 dollar safety fund garbage right where the sun dont shine,cause I cant be BOUGHT.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
If my memory serves me right,I think Michigan takes on about 30 MILLION dollars a year in timber service orders..In order for timber harvests to happen in this State,our Forests must be CERTIFIED forests..At out last ORV meeting,it appeared to me that our Forest lands here in Michigan might have a chance of being turned down as certified forests,which mean that no more timber harvest sales can happen.A DNR authority stood up and told the users that we might not get this certification because of indiscriminate ORV damage..
I was also told that the folks that actually certify Michigan forests are from Cali and are actually enviro freaks.
Its going to be real tough to beat characters like this.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
These big city slickers you mention have EVERY right to bitch and moan about a southern riding area,its THEIR ORV dollars that is in the fund.It was also stated in the LAST ORV Plan from all the way back in or around 1990 that this riding area was SUPPOSE to be constructed and ON THE ground,yet 15yrs later, they still dont have it..These guys are only asking for what they were allready suppose to have,and nothing more.
Look at the gas revenue that is developed from ATVs and dirtbikes in Michigan..Users were also suppose to benifit from the tax revenue we've generated thru the use of our ORVs,and still to date,not one penny of that ORV tax dollar benifits the ORVer in this State.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
MY
ORV hero?
Blackballed,just exactly WTF have YOU acchomplished in the last 27 months of YOUR DIS-SERVICE to the ORV community EXCEPT for blasting your big Freaking mouth over nothing more than Bull-hit?.I can tell you a few things that my 'hero' has done,
We have accomplished 278 [if you even know what 278 is?]
We accomplished the results of getting an ORV safety Task Force on board to straighten out the poorly mis-aligned safety classes the DNR were responsable for.
We will get some things resolved out of the Draft Plan[did YOU even SEND a letter?]
We got 100 miles of rail trail in the U.P.
We got 4 counties in the LP to open their roads
He has forced those in responsable ORV positions to be ACCOUNTABLE for their shortcomings to our sport.
Has spent 100s of hours of HIS OWN time visiting other communities and their leaders to strengthen our hold on county road openings for ORVs in the LP..ect ect ect??
My ''HERO'' cant fix everything there is wrong with the ORV situations we currently have here in Michigan,BUT,to his defense,he has addressed and acchomplised more ORV issues in his 27 months of service than the old ORV administration got done in 10 yrs.
You really need to do your HOMEWORK before you start calling these guys out,especially if alls your going to do is 'CRY WOLF'
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
TRUE COMMUNITY DECISIONS?
Yes,and just WHO the hell do you suspect brought forth these TRUE COMMUNITY DECISIONS? Did somebody YOU know bring forth these same ORV topics of discussions to the powers that be in their community,or was it my 'HERO' that first brought them to the light of the communities so that a COMMUNITY DECISION [your words] could even be decided upon?
You claim that these decisions were made behind closed doors?You also have CLEARLY indicated that these decisions were made by the COMMUNITY in an attempt to discredit my ''HERO'', YET in another sentence,you say these are CLOSED MEETINGS to anyone who dares to knock on the doors..
What is it BlackBalled,the COMMUNITY that made these important decisions decided to close the door on the rest of the ORV community?
Give the folks of this forum a break---
They can see right THRU you
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
QUOTE---[lol)....I don't think even you know what you've just tried to get across above. (you lost 'me' midway through the third sentance END OF QUOTE
The post you dont understand was not intended for anyone with less than a 3rd grade education to comprehend,so dont be so hard on yourself.
Posted by: RacinJason
Its the newbies that are causing the most damage...the people who still have no idea how great our riding areas are and what its worth to protect them...the ones that leave/burn trash
I was taught to leave the place you were better than when you arrived...its not to much to ask of everyone to spend 3minutes while the truck is warmming up to walk around with a bag and fill it with others trash...pick up the cans the wrappers etc...this goes for me wether its the dunes race track or the creek on the back of your property
Posted by: RacinJason
WOW Blackballed never agree's with meBR>
Posted by: Raptor149
Well, it seems fairly obvious that people who ride in the woods, trails, and on non-designated trails cause the most damage. Riding through the woods creates ruts, stagnant pools of mud and water, destroys natural vegetation and animal habitats. This includes hunters, woods riders/racers, etc.
Those who do the least damage are people who ride in specific, designated areas such as motocross tracks, sand dunes, drags. These are already ploughed and dozed dirt areas where the environment, aside from the air, is not being affected. (Responsible) Dune riders are not destroying vegetation, habitats, or the turf. It's the desert, there's nothing out there.
Posted by: Raptor149
As a whole-hearted ATV enthusiast who is going riding on an abandoned coal mine/waste dump turned sportsman's club next weekend, I agree with you. However, I am making my argument simply to express the other side because those people are not here, and it is good for us to examine how things might be seen from an environmentalists' perspective.
Regarding ruts, trails and stagnant water, it is not an irrelevant complaint. These types of scars to the natural landscape are accelerated ten fold when just five or six ATVs traverse the same trail twice in one day. The damage done by ATVs is incomparable to a deer trail that may be three or four inches wide after six months use by two or three deer.
If you've ever ridden a trail at high elevation in the mountains of Colorado or Pennsylvania, and then you look down the mountain at the trail, or at the trail on the mountain across from you, it looks like one big brown scar across the hillside. Whether these are marked, groomed trails or not, these types of marks do not appear where herds of deer and elk have existed for half a century.
I am all for groomed and marked trails. It gives us a place to ride. Especially when they are on places like old, reclaimed waste dumps or mine areas. Nothing else can be done with the land. But you have to acknowledge the impact we as ATVers have on nature. Just like everything else, whether it be a steamer on the great lakes or a jet streaming across the sky. But our sport is still at the age where we can have an affect on curbing and minimalizing the affects on nature.
Posted by: Raptor149
Well that's a different point entirely. Do you know of instances where this is happening? I'm sure the local newspaper, or magazine, even ATV Connection, would want to know this so a story could be put together.
Posted by: Raptor149
I love people who don't read entire threads and then post. Ignorance is their bliss that allows them to essentially spew forth their ideas like puke through a megaphone. It's very messy.
First, trails carved in swamps are going to heal. They are constantly changing because of their wet nature. That's why they're called wetlands. I have some on my property, and a trail there never lasts more than a month or two.
Second, I am not proposing shutting down ride areas. As Dragginbutt put it, I am all in favor of marked, well-groomed trails, which responsible people stay on. If you've ever ridden a trail system that is used for a poker run, like the old Cochranton Run or today's Rumble on the Ridge, you would see the damage done to the environment.
I am not advocating closing these trails down. I love trails as much as you do. What I hate is obvious trails where people leave their litter, or blatently ride off the trail and do unecessary damage. Money into trail systems is a good
thing.
What I am advocating is responsibility and respect. Do not trespass to ride. PAY to ride at places. It's good for the our reputation, the environment and people who own these places.
By the way, Bill, if you had read my posts you would have seen I am simply playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of argument. Relax, dude. Seeing both sides is of an argument is part of being educated, and education is knowledge, which is key.
Posted by: blackballed
An issue which pertains somewhat to this has to do with what we call an "event trail" here in Michigan.
Motorcyclists would bust a new trail through the woods; have a weekend event there and then (supposedly) "close the trail down again forever" when they were done.
The DNR finally realized that this was beyond the realm of reasonable thinking not only because of the environmental damage left behind; but for the fact that ANY sign of a motorized vehicle going anywhere opens the floodgates for everybody else. This is not an issue of what impact that original trail made or how quickly it recovered....it is an issue that many of you have brought up here previously in regards to how not staying on the trail leads to obvious temptation by others.
The other (less talked about) issue here is exactly WHO is fighting for and against this.
We had so many motorcyclists ("out of the blue" of course) show up for these discussions regarding the elimination of these event trails; you would have thought they had just banned the two-wheeler all together. Yet these arrogant snobs weren't fighting for the entire light 4 and 2 wheeled drive community to bust these things out, have fun and explore new areas on any given day...it was just yet another forum for our motorcycle community to point out what they see as the stark difference between us and them.
Since the sales of 4 wheeled machines began to dwarf the purchase of two-wheelers many years ago, these people have done their damnest to divide this community while constantly (usually behind closed doors) pointing out the "difference" in our environmental impact over theirs. Here in Michigan, this has resulted in absolutely no modern maintenance equipment to handle over 3,000 miles of trails; an attitude that "woops" are a good thing that slow down atvers while allowing motorcycles to pass and, more importantly, allowed a motorcycle 'majority' :rolleyes: (in this state) to declare that atvs have raped even the designated trail system (the same system that they have succesfully succeeded in keeping mechanized maintenance machinery off ) to the point where trails should be closed for "studies" that guage just how long it takes for these trails to "recover".
What they don't like to talk about is the fact that this 'differentiation'....this "look how fast our trails revover v.s. 'theirs'....has further fractured this community; resulting in not only new trails within our system being proposed as "motorcycle only"; barriers being erected in front of previously accessible trails and "no comment" on what any actual "multi-use" mix should be in the future....but a feeling that these guys would climb in bed with any environmentalist in a heartbeat (and talk us down all day long) if there was something in it for them.
I believe you need look no further than what the AMA has done in making the ATVA their little red-headed step-child over the years to observe just why this disconnect is happening with these mainly older two-wheeled enthusiasts. Many of them falt-out hate atvs with a passion, believe it is their god-given right to ride exclusive trails built strictly for themselves and that (somehow) we should be further subdividing this motorized community into trails handling quads, utility vehicles, full sized trucks and (of course!) trails that they and ONLY they will ever experience (all the while demanding that they darn well be allowed to ride every one of the others).
ides the motorcyclists) complain about one group or the other. I had never, before witnessing this phenomena, believed that one motorized group would actually hop in bed with our enemies in even non-declared opposition against us. But if you don't think that many of these guys (at least in Michigan) wouldn't sell this sport which is desperately in need of unification down the road over trail impact issues?.....you are flat out kidding yourself and that's a shame.
I you don't "believe" any of this....ask me why one simple question has caused more people to shup up, stare down/shuffle their feet or outright inspire fire-breathing hatred in all that were asked it...
....."hey, why aren't we all working together on this"???
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Yep, thats EXACTLY what the DNR would LOVE to see the ATVers and Dirtbikers do,FIGHT amongst each other over WHO is responsable for enviro damage..It is STUPID to argue this issue in front of the DNR.They would like nothing more than to see us fighting over land use rights ect..Trails would be shut down faster than an 18 yr old male could lick the sweat off Britney Spears thighs.I agree that some issues between us need to be addressed,I dis-agree that the DNR need to get involved in these conversations.
I'm not sure that the Michigan DNR has ever entertained any kind of "divide and conquer" attitude or would love in the least for that to be the case.
The disparity in informed leadership willing to get involved politically and tackle 21st century trail issues has much more to do with the involvement of those successful participants in the process (older cyclists/snowmobilers) over others who are (frankly) not intelligent/informed/willing enough to argue these issues in the first place (which is illustrated by 'non' two-wheeled enthusisasts in Michigan showing up at orv advisory board meetings every 3 or 6 months with absolutely no expectation, up-to-date info or even meaningful/far reaching commentay).
The DNR could care less who brings good management ideas forward or whether those ideas "upset" one group or the other....just as long as those models convey the true spirit of a multi-use trail system that balances the needs of those out there using the resource. The classic example is our own motorcycle representative here in Michigan tring to push for an interconnected trail system...yet using the Paiute Trail in Utah as an example.
What the 4-wheeled community isn't evidently intelligent enough to realize; is that this system is built around the true spirit of multi-use trails....not one which indiscriminately seeks to build single use routes which benefit but a small portion of the resource users and flat out ignores the future realities of who will be using same (for example, our younger orv users have shown absolutely no desire to split up and go their separate ways on single use trails when they meet to ride).
The only people hollering about the potential to "divide" this community are the very same people who have DONE SO already. They use this 'reverse psychology' to effectively sqaush all debate as to why they feel one small segment or our community should be given exclusive access to parts of our land that we will never see. This is no different than the non-motorized community's success in closing thousands of acres of (again) our trails to motorized access for even one/two days a year to allow the young, disabled and/or old to get a glimpse of what they will forever be denied.
And if you don't believe this...walk up to an AMA member at one of these meetings and witness the pure arrogance ooze out! (again, isn't it amazing how you've never met a four-wheeled enthusiast who acted the same way towards...them?).
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
Does it really matter who is leading the ragefest? The only solution to the whole access problem is for enthusiasts of all motorized sports to come together and work WITH DNR management
You've got to understand something here in Michigan, DB....I've got club members up here calling the DNR every name in the book every time a ticket is issued instead of simply calming down and getting to the root of the problem itself or simply working with the officers involved.
Classic example.
Just before I left a club up here over lack of leadership and an admitted unwillingness to get involved in anything resembling the political issues at hand; I begged them to get involved beforehand with the law enforcement in any area that they may ride and develop meaningful relationships between these same people. (talk at that meeting immediately turned to what the new bumper sticker and t-shirt should look like).
What do you know...a new riding area opens up and they all pile in their trucks to go up and ride it.
When the tickets are issued :rolleyes:...they immediately get up on the internet and call these officers AND THE ENTIRE DNR every name in the book...crying about how things are so "unfair"....all the while shouting down my insistence that they need contact the agency involved for a simple one-on-one conversation that would prevent same from ever happening again. How do you reason with even organized groups who let things like this happen to them?
The second thing you must unsderstand is that the DNR in Michigan finally stood up and took notice of the fact that certain major instructors here in Michigan (and I'm not talking about Muddy here) were raping the general public in regards to training fees and a host of other issues to the point where the DNR took somewhat of an over correction in the other direction to stop it. This soured the instructors not smart enough to quit publicly bashing the department/threatening to sue them and did absolutely nothing on either side to solve the problem at hand.
What I'm saying here is that you have to have folks intelligent enough to DEAL with the DNR and understand how the department works before you will ever bury the hatchet with them.
"..Not pointing fingers at our own groups...."
C'mon, DB....if you think the thinking members of this community can just sit back and watch what others are doing to it while being chastised/thrown out for even so much as questioning what they are doing...why are orv leaders in other states well informed of just who we are dealing with and what they are after?
I'd like to follow the yellow brick road also...yet i'm not afraid to ask just who that man behind the curtain is either.
"... .The number one key to solving the root issues is education, and self policing. I don't think we need more tickets...."
I guess my question is...if even some of these major riding clubs don't feel that there is any need whatsoever to partner with law enforcement....what choice do these guys have?
"....we need the friendly nudge to our riding buddies to let them know that it is not cool to ignore the damage they are doing when they act out. Eventually, it has a bigger affect on their style than paying a fine. PEER PRESSURE WORKS!...."
You know the problem just as much as I do, DB...the minute some club advertises/is proud of their association with law enforcement...the harder it is to recruit and get those memberships renewed. This is why I have always advocated that these clubs take such a strong stand on this....yet the reality here is that many of these people are more worried about who is going to bring the weenies to their next big ride.
"....Finally, I challenge clubs to adopt certain trails, and put some time and effort into maintaining them. As a matter of membership, make it mandatory that all club members volunteer x amount of time to trail maintenence. Make it a tailgate party... people will eventually find these events the highlight of the year.... It works folks... all it takes it for one person to get it going......"
I agree...we've got over 3,000 miles of trails here in Michigan and the big question for 2006 is....will there be any clubs in the lower peninsula who will be doing trail maintenance this year? (and have they treated their members well enough so that they don't desert said club in the middle of the maintenance cycle....as in years past?).
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
And this public statement is exactly why these state employees (not to mention the corporate American types mentioned in a previous thread) have little respect for today's generation of orv riders. When this community doesn't possess the restraint needed to even give their own 'at will' employees the respect required to tackle issues in an open forum?.....you can darn well better believe they'll listen one heck of a lot more to environmentalists possessing the intellectual ability to play this game so much smarter. (Question, Bill....have you ever witnessed our atv "god" here in Michigan, RR,...ever talk that way...even 'once' ???).
"...What BB is so elagantly forgetting to tell you about the above riding story is that the DNR was virtually the only folks in the entire County boardship meetings that wanted to TURN DOWN the riding priveledges in the same county where the folks were ticketed....."
What you have to understand about any Department of Natural Resources, Bill...is that these folks will take contrary positions to ours.... a good share of the time. THIS IS LIFE...GET OVER IT!!! BR>
"....Just how in the HELL do you expect riders to feel good about contacting these same DNR guys for a one on one conversation of this riding area when it was these same guys that did'nt want the riding area opened in the first place?...."
....with the fact being...that you must DEAL with a good portion of the people you meet in this life... whether you are "mad at them" or not.
I mean, just what is this community all about?
If anybody, including the environmentalists, so much as dare "hurt our feelings"....we just call them every name in the book, take our ball....and go home?
"....And he also forgot to tell you of the complete arrogance an unprofessionalism that these same officers displayed when they issued tickets..."
"Gosh', Bill....your club darn well refused to talk to the DNR about this incident because the mean 'ol officers you encountered didn't hand out 'candy' to everybody after they wrote those tickets? I run into unprofessional people everyday....yet my finding has always been that a talk with their superiors is usually the best way to prevent that kind of behavior from affecting anyone else. BR>
"....He also forgot to tell you that when these tickets went in front of the Prosocuting Attorney for that county,that many of them were DROPPED!...."
(LOL!) BR>Well then....a good 'ol "conversation" with the DNR before those cases ever took up my time and my tax money....might've just caused everybody to go home happy....wouldn't of it?
You see, Bill...and this is something I tried to impress upon your club before I left...your riding club is supposed to set an example for all others in the orv community.
When you go to ride somewhere completely unfamiliar....you get with the proper authorities.
When a problem arises with those same authorities....you try and work things out internally with these same people (not bash them and the entire department while hollering about how you will see them "in court").
There's a lesson to be learned here....yet as I witness so many times on this forum....it is far more popular to play 'the victim'. BR>
]
Posted by: blackballed
Here is Muddy trying to deny that the DNR was sick of hearing training complaints from the general public and finally had to act:
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"....Sorry,but even this is not true..The DNR made it their AGENDA to try and model the ATV safety classes after their Marine,Hunter,and Snowmobile classes,in which ALL of these classes do NOT incorporate evaluating a youths skill level while riding their ATV. You simple pay your 25 bucks,bring your kid to one of their classrooms filled with 25-50 students,show them a few video's from the manufactures,have a question and answer session with an UNQUALIFIED and IMPROPERLY certified ATV Safety Instructor,take a 50 question test,and if you get 70% of your test correct,the DNR will issue you your safety certificate.All of this would take about a total of 3 hrs at best....."
The DNR did not want to change anything in the first place. I told you (and anybody who would listen) years ago... that if these instructors didn't clean up their own house (quit charging parents to sit in on their kid's training classes and quit insisting to the state that it took $60 per student to ADMINISTER said class)..... that the DNR would come on in there with a brrom and clean house...which they finally did. BR>How long did you think it would take before some parent who got clipped $25 for sitting in on his kid's class....actually pulled somebody aside at the DNR?).
"......Lets see here Blackballed? 50 students X 25 bucks per student should = 1.250 bucks the way I do my math..Now you tell me EXACTLY WHO is RAPING who here?....."
You'll get no argument from me that the current "transition" arrangement is ridiculous in regards to $25 for a written test. Yet what seemed even more insulting was the fact that negotiations with the hands-on trainers started out at $90 each.....with the riders here in Michigan footing the entire bill?(from your
"....And the sad part here is that the youths that take these safety classes from these improperly trained morons are not learning a darn thing in regards to how to PROPERLY operate their ATVs....."
The riders of this state have absolutley no problem contributing to your 'non-profit' for training kids...what they are 'insulted' by right now, is the fact that you instructors want to take $600,000 out of our sticker money to do it while all the while demanding that parents shouldn't burden the lion's share of these costs. Sorry, but the riders of this state aren't in the business of subsidizing partents able to afford $10,000 machines while watching instructors compete over that kind of money.
"....The REAL Instructors were NOT soured with the fact of the DNR takeover of these classes or the money we lost,we were pissed that we spent HRs and DAYs of our OWN time in Lansing Michigan attempting to inform the very DNR guys that blackballed accusses us of not having the intelligence to deal with,about the safe and responsable way to do these safety classes....."
C'mon, Bill....you didn't waste your time and it looks like 'now' that you will be handsomely rewarded for your lobbying efforts. Please don't give us this 'sob story'...and especially with these kind of numbers being bandied about. These kids have an option to take the hands-on class and we're going to pay for it. Yeah, you didn't get "$90" per student...yet would somebody please step up here and tell me where they can make $1200 per afternoon and write off every expense connected with making that money???
We would have even been behind you a lot more....yet when the time came for SOMEBODY to stand up and denounce the fact that these parents were being charged just to be there?....there was not one instructor who wanted to talk a word about it! (which is why the DNR had to finally step in and take over a program that was just plain out of control. You guys slept with the dogs....you got fleas).
"...Are your CRAZY Blackballed?Do you realize the amount of man hrs the riding public has put into trying to WORK with the DNR here in Michigan,only to have the same DNR want to turn away riding area's in County's that have the authority/jurisdication to open them.Do you know how many event permits that are turned down?Do you know how many of the DNR quote ORV laws to fit their own agenda's instead of quoting the REAL ORV laws of this State??You SERIOUSLY need to do you damn home work before you start accussing the riding public of not wanting to partner with the DNR......"
You can't have it both ways, Bill.....you come on here callling these people every name in the book/publicly denouncing the DNR.....and then try and convince the rest of us that you are busting your butt to work with them. Again, as much as I don't care for the methods of this gentlemen you previously (and vehemently) defended before you quit his club in disgust (never willing to admit that "I told you so" ....this man is one heck of a lot more intelligent than you when it comes to getting what he wants.....and just how one goes about it (with all due respect).
Isn't there anybody on here who has commentary regarding the original subject of this topic? Is there anybody out there who is also pointing out the fact that not only are many of these motorcyclists "agin" us....but the fact that they have tried to separate 'our' damage from 'theirs' to achieve altogether separate goals? (I apoligize for going off-topic....it's just that many 'non-profiters' here in Michigan don't necessarily like the curtain being drawn back and that many of these topics are related).
Again, it is the folks who actually ask WHY we are not all working together and point out the facts behind it....who get the very least of responses in these forums.
Posted by: blackballed
We agree on a LOT of issues...the problem has been that Muddy was forced to 'partner' with leaders of the motorcycle community who (also) got their hands slapped by the state and their training funds taken away. (which wasn't their fault either; save for an unwillingness to take their fellow instructor aside when he came up with this idea of charging parents to attend their kid's classes).
These 'leaders' are the same guys who shout me down at orv board meetings, refuse to give their contact information out to the general public and get guys like his (former) club president to make certain that anything which happens in their "multi-user group" meetings (a group our DNR claims to never have even heard of) is never (God forbid) revealed to the general public at large.(you frankly just get sick of asking after a while).
I like Bill and will always have a ton of respect for what he's done for this sport. Yet when I implore him to ask the tough questions of these guys "behind the curtain" here in Michigan?...I think he finds it 'difficult' to weigh the record-busting $600,000 per year these guys are pushing for presently to train on the one hand...and the simple difference between right and wrong on the other. This is no reflection on Bill's character...just a different philosophy in regards to how our priorities should be set when evaluating orv leadership's role in solving all these problems and the value our 'peon' community gains from being informed even 'semi' regularly on those same issues.
For example, we are into our 8th week of our chairman's 'secretary' inability to get even the minutes posted of a meeting which took 6 months to happen after the last February meeting (a meeting they both cancelled together).
When you've got guys cancelling your ability to meet with them and not pushing their cohort(s) to even publish the record (for those unable to attend) of when we all finally do...it's tough to get anybody involved in this mess.
Posted by: blackballed
You see?....we really do love each other!
Which atv group causes the most damage? (our original topic)....I would say that the entire community bears that burden....simply because 99% of us couldn't qualify those two words in terms of what is legally considered to be so today...in the first place. We've got over 3,000 miles of trails here in Michigan....with even our DNR admitting that they have no quantitive concept of what damage has been done in the past, what is happening today or what the effect of any such damage will be in the future (although any theories regarding the last concept; they've pretty much got a 'handle' on).
Again, if we can't hold up people in our own community which even a half-witted environmentalist and his or her lawyer coudn't eat for lunch?....who actually "caused" the damage becomes a pretty damn mute point in the big picture here.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...A DNR authority stood up and told the users that we might not get this certification because of indiscriminate ORV damage....".
Yet the orv (cough) "community" sets a higher priority for (and is more interested in) building more trails (especially great big ones around suburban Detroit)...instead of using all that extra energy they 'miraculously' found to build these things...INTO ACTUALLY FIXING/MAINTAINING/PATROLING (hand-in-hand with law enforcement) WHAT THEY RIDE PRESENTLY!!!.
I just 'marvel' at these guys who just sit at our orv advisory board meeting being told that they will receive over 750 miles more trail if they "just keep their mouths shut"....yet when the DNR claims at these same meetings that outlaw use is out of control; they have no idea what has been damaged or where and that even a potential source of past and future trails (timber harvesting) might be threatened?...these big city slicker riders out of suburban Detroit prod their leaders to claim:...."well by god, I don't care 'what' you do or what your problems are with this system we have TODAY...just make damn sure you start now building us a big 'ol riding area here out our back doors; so that we don't have to 'travel' so much TOMORROW!!!" (and give us $4 out of every sticker sold to build/maintain it!).
Does anybody now understand why these guys don't want any of this "crap" being brought up?
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...its THEIR ORV dollars that is in the fund.It was also stated in the LAST ORV Plan from all the way back in or around 1990 that this riding area was SUPPOSE to be constructed and ON THE ground,yet 15yrs later, they still dont have it..These guys are only asking for what they were allready suppose to have,and nothing more..."
Every day, the governemnt agrees "in principle" to a number of projects that are proposed and never completed. Yet the interesting thing to me regarding your way of thinking has to do with what you expect from those same people.
Your "hero" here in Michigan orv leadership.....has claimed that he will "out of thin air"; come up with over 750 miles of NEW trails to be put on the ground by 2008....WITHOUT ANY INVOLVEMENT from the same DNR you want out there building your big city slicker riding area (the DNR have continually informed me that they know nothing about what your 'hero' has proposed...yet the same guy continually claims that he is working "hand-in-hand with the DNR" on these projects.
Maybe the membership up on these forums can 'correct' me on this...yet have the vast majority of you out there had problems pulling even "5" miles of new state trails out of your butts....let alone seven hundred and fifty of them? (with absolutely NO help from anybody in state government?).
Again, this is why these guys dread any of these matters being discussed openly; as there has always been this big shroud of secrecy over orv matters here in Michigan....especially (as one could imagine) those which affect big city Detroit riders and their arrogant view of what trails should be put where and how trail maintenance funds should be spent.(privitization using modern maintenance equipment on a standardized/immeditately accountable basis = "not good"...maintenance funds funneled to unaccountable clubs still using machetes and pull-behind graders "good" ).
Again, answering the question which this topic begs: "Which group of atv users causes the most environmental damage?"
It is the users who feel building MORE trails is more important than evaluating, maintaining and FIXING the ones they already "have" FIRST.(and partnering with as many groups as possible to do so instead of competing with those same people).
Posted by: blackballed
I'd 'like' to reply...yet it seems that Muddy has (again) made no attempt to even 'try' and link his comment matter to the topic at hand.
These guys all point to what 'they' have done....yet the real story here has always been, that not only haven't these been true "community" decisions; but every one of those decisions have been made behind closed doors with the kind of rude/arrogant behavior you witness above towards anybody who so much as "dare" knock on it.
We may be perceived as 'backwoods' when you live outside of the glare of those big city lights.....yet we know a crook when we see one and aren't afraid to call a spade a spade.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
TRUE COMMUNITY DECISIONS?Yes,and just WHO the hell do you suspect brought forth these TRUE COMMUNITY DECISIONS? Did somebody YOU know bring forth these same ORV topics of discussions to the powers that be in their community,or was it my 'HERO' that first brought them to the light of the communities so that a COMMUNITY DECISION [your words] could even be decided upon?You claim that these decisions were made behind closed doors?You also have CLEARLY indicated that these decisions were made by the COMMUNITY in an attempt to discredit my 'HERO', YET in another sentence,you say these are CLOSED MEETINGS to anyone who dares to knock on the doors..What is it BlackBalled,the COMMUNITY that made these important decisions decided to close the door on the rest of the ORV community?Give the folks of this forum a break---They can see right THRU youhr>
(lol)....I don't think even you know what you've just tried to get across above. (you lost 'me' midway through the third sentance...).
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: RacinJason
Its the newbies that are causing the most damage...the people who still have no idea how great our riding areas are and what its worth to protect them...
I agree with you; yet I don't think this community can afford to wait for these young people to 'grow up'...especially when our generation has had little interest in picking up where the last generation (older cyclists and sledders who often times built the vast majority of these trails we ride today) left off.
There will always be young punks that ruin it for everybody and places for them to go on the web where older riders (us) don't ever 'dare' question their boasted upon actions. And at the pace we're going now with even our national riding organizations unwilling to "stand up like a man" or even so much as question these same people?(with maximizing non-profit membership money and keeping 'a job' holding precedent)...our generation will be held accountable for not holding down this fort until at least some of them grew up. BR>
Posted by: reconranger
I had an interesting converesation this weekend with Steve Larrabee, who is the Assistant Recreation Officer for the northern half of Inyo National Forest. For those of you who have no idea where Inyo is, it is the area to the east of Yosemite National Park. It includes the High Sierra Mountains, as well as lots of lower elevation mountains and valley desert.
Steve was kind enough to rescue us this weekend when our riding route was blocked by a flash flood (http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm/catid/27/threadid/462740.cfm). We had a long drive back to town and lots of time to talk, and he mentioned some interesting information! He said that in his area it is NOT THE RECREATIONAL RIDERS that are particularly causing damage, but rather it is the HUNTERS and WOODCUTTERS. Hunters because they will shoot an animal way off an established road, then not wanting to carry it out by hand, they will drive cross-country to retrieve the animal. And for woodcutters, a similar set of circumstances, where they don't want to haul wood by hand for any great distance. Inyo has very fragile soil, and somebody riding offroad is going to leave a scar that might last for years.
I know that in the So. Calif. desert, it is probably testosterone crazed kids that are the biggest offenders. Anyway, no sense in giving the environmentalists any more fuel for their fires! If you are guilty of abusing the trail system, think about it before you do it again and give us all a bad name.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I am going to assume that there is not any intent to start a war here between hunters and sport riders, I would like to answer this a little different. I believe the ones doing the most damage are the ones that either feel they know everything they need to know before buying an ATV, or the untrained in general. First off, Having a history in dirt bikes does not carry over. Riding an ATV is more like riding a snowmobile than a dirt bike. Anyone who has put their foot out and have it run over can attest to that...
Let's face it, ATV's are a different animal, and require different skills.. this all takes instruction. And EVERYONE can benefit from it. This includes instruction in proper trail etiquette, environmental damage awareness etc. It sure would go a long way towards taking away the big arguiments that environmental groups have used against us.
We are winning the war on injury stats... so they have changed tactics to attack our access rights. And are using the environmental damage card heavily.
Bottom line, it isn't between Utility riders or Sport riders... it is simply the uniformed, and the uncaring that are our worst enemies.
responsible riding should start when the machine gets rolled out, and end when it gets put away... Nothing less is acceptable.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Raptor dude, I can see your point, but it sounds a bit like how an environmentalist would answer the question. First let me say that many enjoy a leisurely trail ride, and if constructed properly, minimal damage to the environment is done.
Second, I think you are seeing trail systems being developed around the country that support our sport. In many cases, the trail systems are being created on reclaimed coal mines, silver mines, etc. In short, the developers are taking what is a bad situation environmentally, and turning it into a good situation. Not only are the areas being cleaned up and Nature is taking the land back, but the economic benefit being realized is a boon to local enocomies. I think the people living around the Hatfield McCoy, or the Paiute trail can attest to that.
The real deal is ATV enthusiasts realize that damage is made, and can be controlled.. and for the most part, we just want to coexist with everyone. Where we have issues is when an environmentalist refuses to acknowledge our rights to ride too. They want us all out...
Your argument about ruts, water holes etc.. is irrelavent. The last time I was out in mother nature's realm, I found ruts, and water holes that were the result of deer using a trail they created through the woods, and mud holes that were the result of natural terrain.. not because an ATV had passed through. That is a garbage complaint. A person's footsteps can over time create the same situation.
Even if the land is declared a wilderness, and no man can enter on foot or on an ATV... you will STILL have the same environmental impact over time.
For the most part though, I and the majority of enthusiasts agree that designated trail systems are the way to go, and that riders should ride responsibly and stay on marked and groomed trails. This is why we are demanding that the designated trail building funds that states are collecting should be used for the stated purpose, and not spent on some pet project that is not related to ATVs.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yes but I can vouch for cow trails doing the same thing on a dairy farm... and they can become just as wide.
I agree that ATV riding can accelerate the damage, but the point I want to make is that properly constructed trail systems can make a big difference in the amount of errosion etc. We must begin to hold those in power accountable. If we have to fund programs via registration fees, we should expect those funds to be used to build the better trails...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
What may appear to be a scar to some, may be a wonderful trail to others. I think we are on the same page, but look at it from different views.
From my perspective, I want properly constructed trail systems to be built and maintained. In many parts of the country, we are paying for them with license fees etc.. so we have every right to demand that the funds generated should be used to improve trail conditions.
With that, I also want people educated to the potential damage their machines can cause if they stray off those properly built trail systems. The education portion would show a certain due dilligence, and it shows the environmentalists that we are sensative to their complaints.
The biggest problem is that although in many cases the ATV industry is bending over backwards to attempt to address their concerns, the Envirnmental groups are consistantly refusing to see our side, or consider a compromise. They have been asked to help in designing more earth friendly systems, but in their arrogance, they refuse to even show up to the table. It is hard to have a dialog when one side refuses to show up....
I think the majority of ATV riders are sensative to the issues, and realize that we need to keep on top of them, or we will find ourselves in deep trouble. I admit there are those that don't feel rules or responsible acts apply to them.. but they are a small minority, and policy/laws should be, and are written to address the majority. The problem is that the environmental lobby would like to reverse that.
The point here is that instead of pointing fingers at the different groups of riders in an attempt to split our sport.. we should refuse to be baited into an argument that only serves the enviro army... which I now believe may have been the intent of this thread in the first place.
It didn't work... and I am glad to see that the majority has managed to see through the smoke screen.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Does it really matter who is leading the ragefest? The only solution to the whole access problem is for enthusiasts of all motorized sports to come together and work WITH DNR management to 1) correct the mistakes from the past, 2)Bury the hatchets 3) develope and repair trail systems that can be SHARED, thus maximizing what few dollars are available.. and 4) as a combined entitiy, fight the false information that the greens and the right wing media is putting out. We need to get in front of local governments and show them the economic impact our sports have brought to their local areas... and we must work together.. Not pointing fingers at our own groups.
The number one key to solving the root issues is education, and self policing. I don't think we need more tickets.... we need the friendly nudge to our riding buddies to let them know that it is not cool to ignore the damage they are doing when they act out. Eventually, it has a bigger affect on their style than paying a fine. PEER PRESSURE WORKS!
Finally, I challenge clubs to adopt certain trails, and put some time and effort into maintaining them. As a matter of membership, make it mandatory that all club members volunteer x amount of time to trail maintenence. Make it a tailgate party... people will eventually find these events the highlight of the year.... It works folks... all it takes it for one person to get it going.
Posted by: motox26
I don't even see an argument with the hunter theory. Running thru the woods to drag out a animal is not going to have a serious inmpact on the environment. A squirrel can live in a sub-division for crying out loud, but now it sounds like a squirrel can't live in the woods because of a tire track left by a ATV!
Posted by: weez440
the stagnant water and ruts from an atv is kinda far fetched you say it can be there for years. well on our own private hunting land we have been using the same bulldozing trails year after year to get to different deerstands or just driving around our own land. these trails have been here for about 15 years now and it is alot of floating bog and marshes and we have rutted the bajesus out of these same trails year in and year out and the land repairs itself more quickly then people realize. the next summer we go out on the same trails and you can't tell that an atv has ever been there and heck we even take a 4440 john deere and a brush hog pending if it gets dry enough and we leave ruts with that and after a year you can't see them. yes i do feel that people should be sensitive towards nature when they are out on a trail to stay on it and tread lightly cause we don't need to give the environmentalists any shells for their guns. but to be fair to the loggers to they are cutting the wood down in the woods i think that has a bigger envionmental impact then a couple lil tracks going into the woods. and in the long run logging actually benefits the environment to bad people can't see this.
Posted by: weez440
well muddy we would like to hear your serious opnion on this subject.
Posted by: weez440
well sparky in regards to aggressive tires i have noticed that by having bigger more aggressive tires when i am driving in wetter area's in alot of instances the bigger tires will float and carry on top of the ground and people with stock tires will be sitting there stuck or spinning it down to get through a certain area therefore rutting it up where you can't see where i went. i know that big tires get a bad rep because some people get them just so they can go rip the land up but if used responsible they are more environmentally friendly.
Posted by: weez440
before or after she had this kid?
Posted by: weez440
i say that we should host a topless atv ride and all proceeds will go to our trail systems and making it better for all of us i think this could be the next big craze. i think we could even pull some greenies from the evil side to our side.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Im going to lock this thread for 24 hrs or so and see if you guys can calm down a little.
OK, Im going to open this back up for a while and see what goes on. I think its fairly obvious that you 2 guys have a few areas that you disagree on. Is there anything that you 2 agree on? There has to be something.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Quote
Originally posted by: blackballed
You see?....we really <EM>do</EM> love each other!
"Its a beautiful day in the neighborhood..............................
Posted by: mywifesquad
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I was also told that the folks that actually certify Michigan forests are from Cali and are actually enviro freaks.
If Barbera Boxer is involved in any way, your screwed.
Posted by: Sparky8370
Well I think the obvious one is being missed here. A lot of people go out and buy the most aggresive tire they can when something fairly low impact tire like holeshots would suffice. But I also don't see the trails as being a scar either. I know raptor is just playing devil's advocate, but that's really how the devil feels. It's just a few irresponsible riders really. Next thing ya know they'll want to fix those big black hidious scars, the ones with white and yellow stripes!!!! I don't think these envirodweebs do their research properly. It's just like with politicians, if you want to find something bad about someone you can. Then just spread it around to smear the individual or group (atv, dirtbikes,etc) add some lies and exagerations and you've got quite a following.
Posted by: Sparky8370
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Yep,
thats EXACTLY what the DNR would LOVE to see the ATVers and Dirtbikers do,FIGHT amongst each other over WHO is responsable for enviro damage..It is STUPID to argue this issue in front of the DNR.They would like nothing more than to see us fighting over land use rights ect..Trails would be shut down faster than an 18 yr old male could lick the sweat off Britney Spears thighs.
I agree that some issues between us need to be addressed,I dis-agree that the DNR need to get involved in these conversations.
Yeah I think your right. Well, except for the 18 yr old thing. I'm 28 and I could probably get it done a little quicker!! LOL
Posted by: Sparky8370
I'm not picky
