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Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Since NOBODY has a club ANYWHERE that meets the expectations of Mr Blackballed,I say that its high time that he form his own club with members that share his exact feelings and start lobbing Lansing yourselves.You've been bitching on your own for 5 years now and its gotten you NOWHERE..I mean,except for high blood pressure,what has all your moaning got you accomplished?
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Right now,there is the ATVA [national club]and it has done some good for ATVers on a national basis.Somewhere about 2003,the CPSC held a meeting in West Virginia to ban the use of ATVs for ALL youth under the age of 16yrs old,and Doug Morris and the ATVA was right there to speak on and defend our cause.Thus resulting in no immediate national ban on ATVs for youth.The ATVA was also right here in Michigan just a few months ago to help us argue the DNR with regards to their improper and perhaps even illegal use of ORV safety instructors/classes.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I dont downplay BB efforts to talk about the issues that need to be discussed in the ORV community,he has brought up some very GOOD issues that should be addressed...My problem with BB is that when you cant get the results your looking for by following the chain of command within the DNR,Off Road Advisory board or exsisting ATV clubs,than its time for you to CHANGE your battle statagy and start banging on the doors of your Congressman/lawmakers or start your OWN club..
Instead,he just continues to cry on the SAME shoulders that he feels have left him in the dark for the last 5 yrs.And quite frankly,these folks are simply tired of hearing from him and now,I think most just ignore him..
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
IGNORE?
yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!
John,its time you go and get your own club together like I said earlier,than YOU guys head to Lansing and talk the ORV issues over with your lawmakers,cause from what I saw last night,these guys are sick and tired of hearing from you.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
The ATVA did not go to West Virginia in 2003 to discuss Windrock or any watered down petetions..They were there to fight for our kids right to ride a 4 wheeler under the age of 16,and I think they got that acchomplished.
How in the hell do you expect Doug Morris to ask the ATV Safety Institute to be present for a meeting of this nature anyways?All they [ASI] would do is make things WORSE for a hearing of this kind..Remember the Consent Decree Agreement John?Let me remind you that it was the CPSC and the MANUFACTURES that agreed upon the goofy and redicules AGE/CC sizes that we have had since 1988.What possible recommendation do you suppose the ASI would request to the CPSC at this WV meeting that could POSSIBLE make things better for the youth of America and shove aside a possible operator ban on all youth under the age of 16yrs old?NOTHING!
At least right now,in most States,our kids can ride an appropiately sized ATV unders adult visual supervision and certified..Get the ASI and the CPSC involved,and EVERY kid in EVERY STATE may be FORCED to abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations that were put in place in the 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.And I dont know ANYBODY who wants that.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I just spent a hr and a half responding to your [BB] posts and the internet failed to receive it,this pisses me off,because now I dont have the time..You made some very disturbing accusations,and I WILL find the time to put your ass back where it belongs,you can count on that.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
THE ATVA AND WINDRCK?
EVERY State has the ability to adopt their OWN safety ordinances regarding certain safety issue's..If the ATVA and the CPSC did'nt agree on the safety issues' for Windrock',it still would have NO relationship WHAT SO EVER as to WHY the ATVA was in WV in the first place,so your comments make 000000000000% sense here.MANY other State do NOT follow the Concent Decree either when it comes to actually riding an ATV,yet the CPSC dont abolish these States from involvement.
WATERED DOWN PETETIONS?
Show me PROOF of even one?
YOU REVEALED THAT THE ASI WAS NOT INVITED TO OUR 'historic' SAFETY HEARINGS IN MICHIGAN?
First off,please PROVE to the readers that I claimed these hearings were HISTORIC?The State of Michigan does not beleive that a youth should ride an ATV that does not fit them.If an ASI instructor teaches a class,the following age/cc guidelines MUST be adhered to at ALL times,
AGES 6-11 yrs old---not over 69cc
AGES 12-15 yrs old---not over 90cc
The State of Michigan also makes it mandidtory that ALL ORV operators under the age of 16,must be ORV certified BEFORE they operate any type of ORV.The ASI cirriculm,along with the CPSC and mandidtory age/cc guidelines that must be followed to instruct this ASI class,actually IMPEDES training to our youth.So in 2000,in conjunction with the Michigan Department of Education,we put together some STATE certified ORV safety classes that DOES allow your youth to operate an ATV OUTSIDE of the age/cc recommendations set forth by the manufactures and CPSC way back in 1988.If your youth fit the ATV properly,the kids can get certified on it and earn his/her ORV safety certificate,thats ALOT more than the ASI safety course does for this States youth because 95% of kids under the age of 16,are not riding ATVs according to the manufactures guidlines,and in Michigan [and MOST states]they dont have to.Now John,if YOU want your 14yr old youth that is 5'8 and 180lbs to ride a 90cc,than I suggest you follow the CPSC age/cc guidelines that you so proudly seem to ponder as some type of milestone and historic mark on ATV safety,but most everyone I discuss this with,strongly disagree with the age/cc recomendations.
AND AS GOOFY AS THESE AGE/CC RULES ARE,YOU BECAME AN ASI INSTRUCTOR AND HAVE NO PROBLEM COLLECTING THE 100.00 PER STUDENT TRAINING THEM.
First off,just where the hell do you get off lying to our veiwers by telling them that I get paid 100.00 bucks per student to teach the ASI cirriculmn? AND even if I did get that much $$ per student,its NONE of your freaking bussiness in the first place.I dont go to your boss and tell him that he pays you to much $$ to fix pumps because its NONE of MY bussiness what he pays you,and YOU,should not be concerned with what they pay me either because not one penny of it comes out of YOUR pocket!
THE OTHER SLICK TRAINER THAT TRIED TO KICK OUT THE ASI AND WHY YOU RAISED HOLY HELL OVER NOT BEING ABLE TO TEACH THE ASI IN MICHIGAN?
At NO TIME did I EVER raise hell about not being able to instruct an ASI safety class if [insert name] got the monopoly of State certified classes and over thrown the ASI from Michigan,again,another LIE.What DID happen was that this individule[insert name] that got FIRED from the ASI for not following his ASI license agreement,and made it his personal AGENDA to not have an ASI certificate recognized/valid by LEO of Michigan..When I found this out,I become extremely UNGLUED and made it MY personal agenda to get this STOPPED,and I suceeded in doing so.
ISNT IT FUNNY THAT THE RELEASING OF 4 MILLION DOLLARS AND THE POTENTIAL TRIPLING OF 3 TIMES THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO INSTRUCTORS HAS CAUSED THESE NON-PROFIT INSTRUCTORS TO SEE JESUS AND TURN THEIR BACKS ON THE SAME ORGANIZATION THAT EVERYONE OF THEM STARTED OUT IN?
Another LIE---In fact,of the 300 or so instructors we have in Michigan,very FEW of them started out with ASI,so get your facts straight.
THE ASI AND THE CONSENT DECREE.
Thats perfectly OK with me that the ASI chooses to stay within the Consent Decree agreement..But dont slam any State that chooses not to..The Consent Decree actually IMPEDEDS training to youth because of its redicules age/cc guidelines.I personally train more kids using the State cirriculmn in 2 days class,than I could train an ASI course of kids in a whole yr.So you tell me,WHO REALLY SUFFERS with the ASI youth course?Money did not trash our relationship with ASI,the consent decree did!ASI serves NO threat to ANY instructor of this State,because there is not a single non profit instructor in the State of Michigan that receives even ONE PENNY to help fund his/her safety classes[another LIE].
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
And as far as no one having the balls to defend you at the last ORV board meeting?Nobody there with'maybe'the exception of me,even gives a damn to hear what you have to say in the first place,so WHY would they take the time to defend you.
And when you left the meeting?I could'nt hear a pin drop,but I seemed to hear alot of snickering though.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
DB,
BB is so full of BS that you can smell the stinch coming from the PC in his posts.BB NEVER uncovered ANYTHING.And I never diverted my conversation away from anything as to WHY the ASI was not going to be accepted in Michigan,I simply called BBs accusations about this Michigan/ASI stuff an all out LIE and presented the ACTUAL TRUE story of what went on.At NO TIME was my side of the story diverted.He has no real answer,so the diverson story is all he can come up with.
John,
you are calling us Instructors shysters and that offends me..Under Michigan LAW,Private enterprizes have all the right in the world to cover ALL COSTS associated with administering a safety class,right down to the lead in the pencil you use in your class.A Non-profit cant even get ONE PENNY of grant funding that YOU pay out of your 16.25 cent sticker fee[ONE buck comes out of this 16.25 cent fee for safety education that we CANT even TOUCH],so I have NO IDEA WTF your sitting here crying about?
What happens here is that BB only looks at the fee the instructor charges the parents kids to take the class,WITHOUT looking at the other addition COSTS associated with making that class happen.There is fuel FOR THE ATVs,ATV maintenance,bussiness insurance,office space fee,field maintenance [the TRAINING track dont GRADE ITSELF],snowplowing fee's,Offices supplies,office phone,postage,training expenses,secreterial fee's,ect ect ect,??
Do you know what your boss would tell me if I had the nerve to call him and tell him that he's ripping off his customers with his charges?The samething im going to tell you,
Its the cost of doing BUSSINESS,something YOU know NOTHING about!
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
".....and help us learn how to build better, more earth friendly and less damaging trail systems....."
I'm with you, as always, DB...but how do you demand that powerful groups within our OWN community...grab some of their own membership by the ear and get them off all the "non-profit" trail maintenance dole....that prevents any of the above from ever happening?
I've got a guy right here in Michigan who doesn't want to hear A WORD regarding building the trails you describe...why?....he's receiving 180 grand per year to "maintain" trails the same way he did back in the 60's when they were built!!
For pete's sakes, DB...these guys have already declared that the 4-wheeled community has raped the land; that these trails (not "theirs") must be closed down for "study"... and that "new" trails should be built right beside them until the "beyond fixing" trails "recover"!!.
Now tell me....how do you develop any kind of relationship with a died-in-the-wool "low-impact" environmentalist......when OUR OWN GUYS are out there hollering about how we must bust out new trails right next to the 4-wheel raped/poorly maintained, old ones ("screw up" more land)....so that these single-minded orv users can do parallel studies on how "motorcycle trails" have so much less of an environmental impact and we should build more of them exclusively? (these two-faced liars have been playing both sides of the fence for so long that it is flat out sickening).
I'll come to the table with anyone....yet like the crap I've been dealing with in (again) our OWN community regarding ridiculous secretive acts, lip-service to safety and a host of other issues to numerous to mention here.....I refuse to stand next to somebody at that table; until I can look him in the eye and like a man....FIRST.
Shoot, DB....I've got these guys spending $4 million of our long frozen sticker money "by 2008"...before the money is even so much as released (forget about discussing how it will be spent) or the state has even announced what their long-range plans are! (not to mention legislation pending that these same arrogant bastards refuse to say word one about and that the public's right to ask questions/stay informed has been cancelled for going on 6 months now by the same "brothers" we're supposed to be partnering with).
Give me a true MAN (or woman) to deal with and I'm all in....yet don't make me stand beside someone who doesn't know what the term means and could care less what it entails to boot.
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I hear the frustration with the local issues... but on the flip side, you should count yourself lucky there is even a dialog going on...."
There is no dialogue...which is the entire point. We've got guys up here saying that they represent every orv user group in the state and that they are drafting legislation as we speak (that they refuse to talk about)....yet the state authorities responsible for dealing with these same people/issues.....haven't even heard of their existence!
"...I'll admit the system is broken... but if we do nothing to lend our voice to the debate... we are defeated before we get started...."
I've been lending my voice to the debate for going on 6 years now....and can't even get past the public's right to be a part of same or on to the actual issues at hand!.
"...We can complain about all the defeats we have suffered in the past.. or continue to push forward for change...."
I'm not squawking about "the past" here, DB....I'm just plain sick and tired of filing FOIA requests over assinine public disclosure issues IN THE PRESENT !!!
"...MN is making some progress. So is Kentucky....."
Sure, Kentucky is making progress....yet as the people involved down there will tell you..JUST DON'T BRING UP THE SUBJECT OF RIDING THERE SAFELY OR ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY APPROACHING "PAY-TO-PLAY" LIKE THE H/M SYSTEM...BECAUSE THERE'S NO ONE DOWN THERE WITH THE GUTS TO LOOK THE MAJORITY OF THESE DOUBLED UP HELMETLESS NATIVES IN THE EYE AND CALL THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE OR WHAT EFFECT THEY'VE HAD ON THE KIDS DOWN THERE AND THE SPORT ITSELF AS A WHOLE.
Again, DB....it's a matter of claiming "yahoo, we're building huge places like Windrock"....yet history showed us real quick that there wasn't a stand-up person alive who had the kahunas to say a damn thing about what goes on there today.
".....As for your buddie getting paid for trail maintenence... More power to him if he can find a living doing work like that... At least some good is coming out of it in the result of groomed trails. Sounds pretty cheap if he has to provide the equipment too..."
He's making a living out of doing absolutely NOTHING, DB...the trails AREN'T "groomed" (on the contrary, they're kept almost 4-wheel unrideable "to keep down speeds")...while THE STATE pays for every piece of antiquated non-motorized equipment they ever owned!
Not to hard to be the only full-time orv lobbyist in the history of this state...... when you've got 180 large coming in every year to run equipment (with volunteers) that somebody else has already payed for! (and you've got another $4 million on the way that nobody is supposed to be talking about!.....).
We've got the largest trail system in the country here in Michigan.
So should we just take all of this running around behind the scenes crap in this focus state and forever be "the exception to the rule"...while all this time simply forfeiting the public's right to comment on any of it? If we're "the big boy on the block" in this community....why do groups like the AMA, ATVA, NOHVCC and others who pat themselves on the back continually as to how they want to get "involved" in this community's business....want NO PART of what is going on here in Michigan, Kentucky or Tennessee? (kind of hard to say 'much' when your fellow board or long-time member won't answer questions from the peon public either).
At the last CPC hearings; we had atv groups up there standing right beside legitimate leaders in our community with only one goal in mind....keep the 'rotten' government out of their right to weld a car seat to the back of their quad, strap their infant kids all over it and head on up the mountainside like it was the family cruiser.
Yet did any orv leader in WV that day have the stones to disassociate themselves from this behavior? Heck No!
Why...if the CPSC isn't smart enough to distinguish good representation from bad...why give them any clue as to the community-shattering issues that question these orv leader's very own legitimacy? How embarrasing is it to run a "non-profit" that hangs their hat on issues like safety and being "the voice of the public".....while places like Windrock flourish and the orv community is out there filing FOIA requests to see where their money is going or why the last public meeting was cancelled without reason here in Michigan?
Sorry, but I've witnessed the good, bad and ugly of people within our own community....and there needs to be one hell of a housecleaning here....and damn well before we bring the neighbors on over for a chat (where they would, frankly, question what the hell WE have been doing; not to mention who in the hell we really are..and ask these questions with good reason).
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: weez440
"...we need one club to stand up and combine all of them or something....we need to combine ONE atv club and get 100,000 people to stand strong instead of having 100 atv clubs with 1000 people involved. just a thought once again trying to think outside the box..."
The only people out there drawing a non-profit salary in the light 4-wheeled world are the red-headed stepchildren of a 'little' group called the AMA.
They hide their heads in the sand when blatant safety debacles like Windrock are shoved in their face; they ignore the type of tough freedom of speech issues (see Michigan today) that involve long-time AMA members/leaders....and they are the #1 reason not even so much as the word "helmet" was mentioned in their formal petition to the CPSC on safety a few years back (another issue that they've talked out of both sides of their mouth for years in the street community).
Yeah, I'll join a national "club"...just as soon as I can find some leader who doesn't keep a $100 bill in his wallet for "anyone who catches me riding without a helmet"...instead of standing up to these issues and many others as a leader should.
Leadership (to me) is embodied by someone you can simply look straight in the eye and who has absolutely nothing to hide (especially in regards to something as ridiculously assinine as simple trail issues).I have yet to find one person in my state who passes that test and who isn't after something for his group at the expense of all others.
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: weez440
.....do my part to help out the sport i love so much but with so much corruption i would feel better if there was a grassroots type of atv club to join that is basically made up of a bunch of pi$$ed off rednecks....
...and i would like to see a websight to of how many members and what has been accomplished how much money was brought in and where it all went. is this to much to ask????...
I agree with your first statement...yet how many "rednecks" do you have left in this club...when you start sorting out those who feel strongly on the helmet issue or jumping straight into bed (sans any apoligies) with law enforcement?
If you ask somebody like myself, yourself or DB to spend our time (nationally) on such a project...why would you even start such an undertaking.... when you can't even get but a handful of this sport's participants to fight forv these kind of critical consensus topics (or even more SIMPLER issues such as sound?).
In regards to your second statement regarding financial disclosure; I'm not sure that many of these non-profit's financial records aren't published every year....yet, you're right...it is much easier to observe an ongoing and updated financial snapshot of any club's recent history; if anything, just to visualize in an instant just what they value and how they are proritizing their often very limited finances (kind of like my mom always used to say..."follow the money" I'm sorry, but I have a big problem with people who are always worried about what the next t-shirt is going to look like or how much the club should spend on non-impact or non-charity based events.
I'm with you here....yet my problem is not starting the movement....it's counting on one or two hands the numbert of folks who you can simply look straight in the eye....not unlike how many "redneck" communities have been making it happen for years.
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Since NOBODY has a club ANYWHERE that meets the expectations of Mr Blackballed,I say that its high time that he form his own club with members that share his exact feelings and start lobbing Lansing yourselves.You've been bitching on your own for 5 years now and its gotten you NOWHERE..I mean,except for high blood pressure,what has all your moaning got you accomplished?
I haven't found anybody with the balls to stand up at these meetings and look these guys in the eye like a man or woman should....thus the sad reality that sometimes you do things for yourself and often times for others also.
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Right now,there is the ATVA [national club]and it has done some good for ATVers on a national basis.Somewhere about 2003,the CPSC held a meeting in West Virginia to ban the use of ATVs for ALL youth under the age of 16yrs old,and Doug Morris and the ATVA was right there to speak on and defend our cause.Thus resulting in no immediate national ban on ATVs for youth.The ATVA was also right here in Michigan just a few months ago to help us argue the DNR with regards to their improper and perhaps even illegal use of ORV safety instructors/classes.
My account of what the ATVA did in West Virginia that day with their wattered down petition and hypocritical blind eye to safety-free places like Windrock...is much different. I'm sorry, but I'd much rather have a man simply stand up (frequently) and PUBLICLY to adonish something that is wrong (see the West Virginian club who was there that day and whose motto was "You Can't Legislate Responsibility")....than some guy who carries a hundy around in his back pocket for anybody who catches him riding without a helmet.
If Mr. Morris was so interested in the safety aspect of these classes which were rigned in because people were getting gouged $25 to sit in on their kid's classes (an issue I warned these instructors would bite them in the arse years ago)...why would he sit there an not allow the preeminent safety institution in the land (the ASI has told me that they were never invited) to be included in these discussions? (for Pete's sakes, Bill; your leader of this group flat out admitted that much of the program being brought forward from these sessions was copied/lifted from the work these guys did !!!).
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I may not agree with his point of view all the time, I think we are on the same page....."
I have always respected your view also DB; as it is served up with an injection of intelligence that is required to meaningfully present it.
"....If you look at your history books about warfare, every army has it's bezerkers..."
Uhhh, I think I'll take all that back...BR>
"...As for the CPSC actions in the past.. well think about it... they probably receive 100 letters complaining about ATV rider safety every day. They are bombarded with negative news media coverage around the clock.. and because there are parents out there that still will put 2 year old kids on ATV's and turn them loose in the back yard.. we are going to have to deal with these types of actions....."
I agree completely.
If you're the ATVA(AMA) and you've got problems within your own community and you can't kepp your own house in order.....don't bitch about these guys asking who the people are next to you on that podium who think the government should mind their own business on safety in the sport or who ride in places like Windrock where every one of these club members are afraid to bring the subject of blatant safety abuses at their very own meeting controlling 10's of thousands of acres !!!.
"...The problem is, you will never control idiots like that.... and the rest of us who are responsible in our actions and methods have to suffer for it...."
I disagree with the first part and obviously agree with the second.
I have given up a long time ago "controlling" idiots....yet it is the people "suffering" who take responsibility for not demanding that the PUNISHMENT for these actions cause many fewer folks to do it in the first place. I've said for years, that one of the surest way to kill a growing club membership campaign is to appear cozy with law enforcement and be in favor of great tools like stiff fines and/or impoundments...tell me, who wants to ride with a bunch of people who can't even model or "legacize" (sic) proper partnered behavior in front of their very own kids or anybody else's?
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"....And quite frankly,these folks are simply tired of hearing from him and now,I think most just ignore him.."
The only folks who have "ignored" me lately...are the fellow riders who came to this last orv advisory board meeting and...TO A MAN....did not say a damn thing about the fact that their right to speak on the issues had been hijacked for 6 months ahead of announcing the most important update plan we've ever had.
Yet worse than this.... was the fact that these same "brothers"....further sat there like a bump on a log; allowing the DNR to outright LIE about the public process regarding a citizen receiving their right to speak in front of the board !!!
Sick of hearing from me?....no, I'm sick of going to these things with a bunch of spineless bozos who try to deflect their own gutless problems on those who have absolutely no need to fumble around and strap a set on.
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...IGNORE? yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!...."
Gee..."thanks" Bill :rolleyes:...now tell me...why in the hell didn't even ONE of all those members from ATVOffRoad.net...choose to fumble around; strap a set on AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT ?!?!?! (which is the #1 reason I quit you guys soon after you first started...absolutely no backbone whatsoever and the quick realization that not a one of you would ever have my back in a pinch on the trail or in the boardroom).
Do me a favor, Bill....please don't tell everybody on here that I don't do a damn thing for anybody one moment.....and then "sympathize" with me the next.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
The ATVA did not go to West Virginia in 2003 to discuss Windrock
Sure, they didn't want to discuss Windrock, Bill !!!...because if the CPSC knew that the ATVA was out there promoting this "safety free zone" in their publications...how in the hell would their group be considered a legitimate voice for safety related issues?????
"....or any watered down petetions..."
FOR GOD'S SAKE, BILL..... ***THEY WROTE AND DISTRIBUTED THE DAMN THINGS!!!****
"....They were there to fight for our kids right to ride a 4 wheeler under the age of 16,and I think they got that acchomplished..."
What they 'did'.... is pull the wool over the CPSC's eyes and make it appear that we were one hell of a lot more organizred and on the same page than we ever have been....period.
(Bill now moves on to address the fact that we have HISTORIC ongoing youth safety education discussions going on that I just 'happened' to reveal the ASI hasn't been invited to participate in....this all despite their asking to do so and his group's insistence that their hard work be simply copied for his group's "convenience").
"...How in the hell do you expect Doug Morris to ask the ATV Safety Institute to be present for a meeting of this nature anyways?...."
Never did so....I asked Mr. Ranney why they weren't invited....his answer was that they would simply copy the ASI's "good" material.
".....Remember the Consent Decree Agreement John?Let me remind you that it was the CPSC and the MANUFACTURES that agreed upon the goofy and redicules AGE/CC sizes that we have had since 1988......"
And as "goofy" as those rules have been....you became an ASI instructor and have had no problem over the years collecting that $100 per student to train them BR>
"....What possible recommendation do you suppose the ASI would request to the CPSC at this WV meeting that could POSSIBLE make things better for the youth of America and shove aside a possible operator ban on all youth under the age of 16yrs old?NOTHING!...."
You can go back in this thread (or in any other one)...and you will not find any mention (I've made) of the ASI and the CPSC in the same breath....have you lost your mind or are you just 'babbling on' here?
"....At least right now,in most States,our kids can ride an appropiately sized ATV unders adult visual supervision and certified..Get the ASI and the CPSC involved,and EVERY kid in EVERY STATE may be FORCED to abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations that were put in place in the 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.And I dont know ANYBODY who wants that..."
Bill....Bill...Bill...
....now why is it...that when our other slick Dick trainer (who has been charging parents $25 to sit in on their own kid's training classes)...was trying with all his might...to kick the ASI out of Michigan (so that he would have a monopoly on the only type of class approved here)....that YOU (at that time) raised all kinds of holy hell over the fact that YOU wouldn't be allowed to teach your ASI certified classes?
Isn't it funny how $4 million dollars in released funds and a potential TRIPLING of what instructors might receive....causes these "non-profit" instructors to "see Jesus" and turn their backs on the very organization that every one of them started out in?!
My guess is that the ASI is happy for you and your new program...they just may have never expected that these instructors they invested their time and effort in years ago...would be the same people ignoring that their still is a consent decree and that there still is a legitimate way to train our youth (that they once embraced) before "money" trashed the ability to 'co-exist' all to hell.
Face it...the only reason you guys want the ASI out of there....is that they meet the requirement for a trained instructor...which will make them a direct COMPETITOR for whatever slice of the pie all you "non-profit instructors" are hoping to gain through this greatly increased funding !!!.
And as always, it will be the kids who will suffer.......
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I take it you two know each other..."
As you know, DB....you never really know somebody.... until the time comes for him (or her) to have your back.
I was told that you could have heard "a pin drop" when I walked out of that meeting and now know everyone in that room just a little bit 'better'. BR>
I'll get back on topic and thanks for the reminder.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: mywifesquad
How is everyone doing in here today? hr>
Why...just lovely...how are you?
(6 long years of the above was about all this "shoot straight or don't bother" hillbilly from the swamps of southwest Michigan could 'take' of these big city slicker Detroit area club members).
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
"...Shouldnt you 2 be attacking the dirt bike riders from mich?..."
LOL!!! BR>
You know, I've spent so much time over the past few years simply fighting for the public's right to be heard (first with our atv representative to the board and then with our dirtbike chairman)...that the actual issues which today still separate us...have been given short rift! (which is a great strategy to impliment if you've got someone poking around or asking questions which may affect your "non-profit" club's cash inflow .
We've had two major atv club leaders here in Michigan over the past few years. One was thrown off the board for obvious reasons and has just recently suffered his second major member exodus....the other was his "protege" who resigned his club's leadership position to join a multi-user group council that is harder to break into than the mafioso! (I mean these guys would have to kill you if they ever revealed what they do in a group that our own DNR ....has never even heard of!).
Great bunch of 'stand-up' guys! (lol)
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"... I believe that model is one that the CPSC could and should use to update a policy that is clearly long in tooth and out of touch with today's reality. IF the CPSC is unwilling or incapable of making the change I feel states should have the right to build upon their work, and impliment a more realistic model just like MI has done....".
Nobody's arguing with this, DB; Muddy's just trying to divert the conversation away here from why the state had to take these classes away from them in the first place (how would you like to call someone up and have them tell you that it would be a hundy to train your kid and another 25 to sit in on their class????) as well as cover up the fact that these shysters were trying to "compromise" with the state at $90 per student (with a significant portion coming out of MY sticker money) when these negotiations first began.
If you want to defend these guys in their attempts to make this kind of money or raping parents to sit in on their own kid's classes...I'm fine with that. I just happened to be the only one in this state who got the word out to what was ACTUALLY happening here (sorry, but Bill traveled 3 hours to train kids in my backyard for $25 each and a $500 payday(twice)...now they're looking at $1200 per day ($60/student; the latest news) and that's with writing off all incidental expenses through their "non-profits"!!!.
and it's all "for the kids"......BR>
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I'd like to invite the Environmentalists to sit down with knowledgeble enthusiasts, AND the Federal, State and local authorities that manage our ATV programs, as well as wilderness lands etc, and help us learn how to build better, more earth friendly and less damaging trail systems, and eliminate this bickering that is costing both sides a great deal of money and time.
We must accept the fact that we agree to disagree on many issues, but we also must recognise that the other has the right to exist and express their opinions.
The majority of ATV enthusiasts ARE concerned about conservation, and in being friendly to the environment. We recognise that damage is being done, and we want your assistance in developing building practices that minimize the impact on the earth that our sport may impose.
Together, we CAN achieve both goals of maintaining riding experiences, while protecting the environment at the same time....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Exactly my point. I do not expect any takers... One thing people have to realize is that for the most part, the real movers and shakers in the environmental movement actually make their living running around yelling "the Sky is falling, the Sky is falling"... If they were to compromise and really help find a solution, it would take food off their table and mean they would have to look for another "REAL" job.
They don't give a hoot about saving the environment.. they only want to ensure they can sustain their lifestyle.... They don't care if they are bilking millions out of unsuspecting donars.
They get to walk in forests, breathing fresh air, watching "Nature" take it's course, and collect a fat check at the end of their campaign... While the rest of us sweat it out earning an honest living.
It isn't about saving the planet.. it is about making money and scareing the you-know-what out of people so they open up the purse strings.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hey no problems Weez.. bt don't think that my thoughts are from a
City folk" point of view. I grew up on a farm in Central Wisconsin..I know the issues. The fact that I currently live and work in the cesspool called Washington DC does not mean I do not know what is going on out in teh country.
The flip side of your argument is that major funding sources for the environmental lobby comes from big business, and those associated with it.
The thing that really gets me going is that although they are soliciting money from the average citizen to save the baby seals... or the giant sequoia's, very little of that money actually makes it to the cause it is intended for. AND there is no accountability as to how the money is spent. It goes into the pockets of the lobbyists in DC, and the lawyers filing all these BS lawsuits designed to bleed what little funding the DNR gets for it's programs.
We are up against professionals whose full time jobs are working for the Environmentalists.. Professional liars, cheats and thieves that is. DOn't get me wrong, some good does come of their work. Mostly in the awareness category... but only a small percentage makes it to the real programs.
This doesn't just work this way with environmentalists either. There are many religious organizations that funnel huge sums of money out of the country end up providing assistance to terrorist organizations... not feeding babies as we think.....After 9-11, the government shut down many of them that were funneling litterally millions to Al Qaida, the IRA, PLO, HAMAS etc.
Heck even the American Red Cross is on my list of do not respond these days. One only has to look at the money scandal after 9-11 to see that.... An example... two weeks ago, I went to my local Lowes to purchase some lumber and supplies and the American Red Cross was there handing our pamplets and asking for donations... only thing is, they were working out of a brand new Mercedes SUV, all painted with their logos etc.... I makes you wonder how they are spending those donations.
Could they have bought a cheaper, more economical vehicle to purchase and maintain? American made no less... you be the judge. By the way I pointed that out to them and the guy got nasty and asked "What's it to you?". My reply was it was my money that provided that vehicle and I thought I had a right to know how my money was being spent.
From now on, I think I'll put my donations to organizations that really need it.
Bottom line, is that people need to ask before they write that check. Before they do, consider writing one to the Blue Ribbon Coalition, or many other organizations that are out here fighting the eco warriors in the meetings/hearings, and courts.
Until then, I still believe there is a lot of work to be done.. and a lot that could be acomplished if the warring parties would work together instead of all this wrangling in the courts. It would be a WIN WIN situation... but it WOULD probably put them out of business, and we all know that their lawyers would be howling like wolves... and where their priorities really lie.
I also believe that the ATV industry is in their cross hairs because we are fighting back, not willing to accept their rhetoric, not allowing them to get by with their lies any more. They better get used to it... I own that national forest too, and I have rights to it just as much as they do.
That is why they have enlisted the help of doctors in emergency rooms around the globe, and why they fill the news media with half truths designed to formulate public opinion against us. Fact is, there are more injuries and deaths from riding bicycles, but you don't hear complaints there... other than forcing kids to wear helmets... which I believe is a good thing.
The media is having a feeding frenzy.. and is very good at painting us as hooligans.
You are right though, we have to do a better PR job to show the public that we are not all bad. The Biker phenominom is a good example. When I was young, they were considered dangerous killers... turns out now, that if you don't ride a Harley, you are a second class citizen.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Welcome to grass roots America Weez... A lot of very good, and long lasting things have come about because of many no name people decided enough was enough, and took action. We can't compete with movie stars, and professional legal teams etc.... but we do have a voice.. and the real challenge is getting people to use it.
Every few years, we get teh priviledge of voting our conscience as well. On our local taxes, for several years we have been given an opportunity to give $2 to some wildlife fund.. or save the Chesapeake bay foundation... I assume other areas have like programs... the only way to fight them is to make sure both sides of the story are told... and we need to tighten their purse strings. Without money to pay their salaries... maybe then we can gain an advantage once their high paid lawyers find the next big finacial windfall project to sink their teeth into...
The good thing is that we are making progress. In MN, you have a governor who at least will talk to ATV enthusiasts. It helps that you have major manufacturers in your back yard, and the state's economy is geared to the leisure industry. Still progress is being made there.
NY is in progress of a new program for building trails. What is needed now is grass roots support, and a lot of volunteer hours.
KY is looking at building a riding industry that matches the Hatfield McCoy in WV. New riding parks have open in the past couple of years in TN, GA, IL, WI TX, OK, UT etc.... Things are changing.. evolving if you will. ALL because of grass roots efforts of people that care enough to get involved. Many local and state leaders are recognizing that the dollars brought in by enthusiasts spending their money on things like gas, lodging, and food bring tax revenue that results in improved economies, and facilities in their local towns.
In short.. there is a lot of work going on.. but it runs on volunteers. You can never have too many.
There too, I have said it before, and will say it again... our sport is evolving towards using designated riding areas. And that may take the form of ride for fee parks, or state funded public riding areas etc... The point is we get a place to ride. No matter where it is, the parks can always use help in trail grooming, cleaning up the trails, marking trails etc. If everyone would give one weekend a year.. well things would be a lot better.
We all recognise that many trail systems built years ago are in bad shape. WHich gives the environmentalists fuel for the fire. We have newer techniques in trail building that re much more Earth friendly.. but funds are low, and labor even less. Let's fix the labor part of the equation...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I hear the frustration with the local issues... but on the flip side, you should count yourself lucky there is even a dialog going on.
I'll admit the system is broken... but if we do nothing to lend our voice to the debate... we are defeated before we get started. Then I'd have to take up something else like golf, or "YUCK" bird watching... Not my ideas of leisure activities.
We can complain about all the defeats we have suffered in the past.. or continue to push forward for change. Sooner or later we are going to win one... and I think we are starting to see some of that happening around the country. MN is making some progress. So is Kentucky, and New York. WV just added a new riding area, and is negoiating for another 70,000 arces to rival the Hatfield/McCoy.
Battles in Utah and other places out west are ongoing.. and we seem to be holding our own... so I have a lot of enthusiasm that we are seeing some light in this cess pool of greed.
As for your buddie getting paid for trail maintenence... More power to him if he can find a living doing work like that... At least some good is coming out of it in the result of groomed trails. Sounds pretty cheap if he has to provide the equipment too...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Let's not forget the work that NOVCC and Blue ribbon Coalition have been doing too. It is unfortunate that some feel that results should be immediate. Sometimes they are.. most of the time they are not. It takes time for things to shake out... that is the difference between professional lobbiests that the environmentalists use, and grass roots efforts.
I understand what it takes for volunteers to take control. In my case, due to physical disabilities, I can't get out there and work on rebuilding bridges, or dig drainage ditches, groom trails etc as much as I;d like to... but there are things that everyone can do... Be a cheerleader, keep up the pressure so that the deciding powers understand that the issue is important to you, the voting public. Write your congressmen and state leaders, and write them often. Let them know that you ARE WATCHING them and paying close attention to their voting actions.
The more people you can get to join voices to the cause the better.
I fully understand BBalled's frustration with the state of current events. I may not agree with his point of view all the time, I think we are on the same page, but more importantly, I am glad he is on my side of the fence.. We are both looking at the same goal. We just take different paths to get there.
If you look at your history books about warfare, every army has it's bezerkers.... It's leaders, it's followers, It's generals, and it's lieutenants.. And the politicians trying to manuver to what they perceive to be the eventual winning side. Where you fit in.. well you choose to defne that. All are needed, and all are welcome to join the fight...
As for the CPSC actions in the past.. well think about it... they probably receive 100 letters complaining about ATV rider safety every day. They are bombarded with negative news media coverage around the clock.. and because there are parents out there that still will put 2 year old kids on ATV's and turn them loose in the back yard.. we are going to have to deal with these types of actions.
Now I am not talking about parents who take time to properly fit the child to a machine, who purchase all the necessary safety gear, who spend hours ensuring they have the proper instruction etc.. I am talking about the Bubba's who get a great deal on a 90 cc machine from some garage sale thinking the kid will grow into it.. who Maybe will buy them a helmet 6 sizes too big so they don't have to buy another one until the child graduates from college.. puts them on the machine with shorts and sandals, shows them how to start it, and goes back in the house and grabs a beer and plops on the couch. These are the people that the laws are trying to control.
The problem is, you will never control idiots like that.... and the rest of us who are responsible in our actions and methods have to suffer for it.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Well now, this has been an interesting and enlightening exchange..... Gee imagine what could we accomplish if we were all on the same side.... I am afraid that it appears that egos have jumped in with both feet.... could we find a middle ground here and discuss the real threat.. the environmental lobby? I am afraid the bickering is driving people away.... and we are losing our focus.
I take it you two know each other ?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hmmm, seems like there has been a history here....
As an outsider, I must agree that MI has a forward view on putting together a program that allows youths to move up in class based upon the ability to demonstrate their skills. I believe that model is one that the CPSC could and should use to update a policy that is clearly long in tooth and out of touch with today's reality. IF the CPSC is unwilling or incapable of making the change I feel states should have the right to build upon their work, and impliment a more realistic model just like MI has done.
As for any organization, there is always going to be some bad blood, and some toes that get stepped on. It appears this argument is deep rooted, and the hatchet, although kept out of sight for a while, has been picked up again...
I kindly asked the two of you to put your personal distaste for each other behind you..and to concentrate on the issue of this thread, but it has fallen on deaf ears. I understand it is hard not to defend yourselves, especially in a public forum.. but please gentlemen, take it off line. I think we all get the point.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
OK boys, I am having the thread locked.... it has gone far to long... thanks for your constructive comments.
Posted by: Elkaholic
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
Sounds great DB, I just dont see it happening. The environmentalists dont want to work with anyone on a compromise. They want total shut down.
The envirionmentalist will never admit we have a right to any area that they could shut down to us.
I wish I shared your optimism about atvers being concerned for their environment. I just havnt ever seen much evidence of it. A few riders every now and then, but most have no respect for their neighbors let alone the land they are on.
Very true........ Now could I talk you all into going to the "Wild Sky" thread and voting no (as many times as you like) since someone told the greenies they were loosing 75%- 25%, and after 3 days they came back with a vengeance. One snowest poster was saying this morning by refreshing the poll votes were coming in at 15 a minute.
Posted by: weez440
i guess things in cali are different then here cause people here are very considerate of each others land and respects that. living in a big time farming community people show the respect that other area's should follow. and atv's are on the go all the time. one of the big things to help our side is if it would be possible somehow to show these people how atv's have a positive effect on nature in alot of ways. if it is seeding food plots for deers or if it is the DNR putting up bird houses. i hope nobody from the city takes offense to what i am about to say. ok here it goes people in the city are not around atv's a whole heck of alot and with all the propaganda out there saying that atv's are destructive on the news and in the newspapaers and with all the environmentalists filling their head with crap i can see why there is so many of them. heck i love the environment as much as anyone in here but atvers spend time in the outdoors to make things better. all these people wanna do is send money and it doesn't even get to the environment it fills someones pockets. if you get a chance go to a PETA website go there. one of the ?'s someone asked was if we stop eating animals will there be enough food to feed the world. PETA's response was of corse there would be cows eat grains that we could use to eat instead. ok most of the grains cows eat is not sanitary for human consumption so that was just trying to get people on the bandwagon. and what are we gonna do with the millions upon millions of cows in the world ok anyone want a bunch of really big pets?????? oops getting kinda off the subject sorry DB.
Posted by: weez440
i like how you say that that state forrest is yours to kinda reminds me of what we were fighting for in that state forrest last winter. and well another thing that sux is that they have environmentalists fighting for them that are celebrities like tom hanks pamela anderson and alicia silverstone just to name a couple and well people look up to them as actors and amateur porn stars lol j/p but you know what i mean. one thing we found out is that in 2001 we had a really bad flood here and the red cross and salvation army both came to the rescue as expected. well when the red cross came we got warm bottled water and cold sandwiches for when we took a break throwing sandbags in the blistering heat for hours on end. well that really didn't replenish anything. when the salvation army truck came out to feed us we got fresh fruits, hot dogs, pop, gatorade, barbque's, chips i mean it was a full meal. that right there said alot to me i mean the red cross wouldn't even take the time to cool off the water. and they are a blood sucking organization and you pointed it out right there with the vehicle they were driving. i mean why couldn't they have boughten say a ford expedition or yukon or something along them lines about half the price and twice the space and it is american made. and i didn't mean to imply that you didn't know what it was like in the country DB i remember you saying you were from the country i am just implying a very large percentage of the population doesn't know and they buy into this propaganda and thats where WE get into trouble.
Posted by: weez440
DB you are the man and i love hearing people get so fired up over this subject but what we really need is well hang with me for a second. we have how many hundreds of atv clubs out there? we need one club to stand up and combine all of them or something. look at what the NRA has done for all of us that own firearms. (i am not an NRA member because they are so political and i do not agree with their political view) without the political viewness we need to combine ONE atv club and get 100,000 people to stand strong instead of having 100 atv clubs with 1000 people involved. just a thought once again trying to think outside the box.
Posted by: weez440
ok black lets start a group you and DB can be presidents. and if you need someone to tell anyone where they can shove it i can do the dirty work. that is all that is missing and DB has been saying it for the longest time we need to assemble and stand up but we also need a good organization to be formed so people do have somewhere to go to have a voice. i haven't joined an atv club cause i haven't found a decent one i trust to do the right thing. people keep telling me about the one in minnesota but it is government run so of corse i don't trust that. it is probably like those license plates that you can buy and spend an extra 30 dollars a year on to help out the wildlife, well what they don't tell you is that money from this goes to buying up alot of land (and alot of it is about 20 min from here) and they close it off so you can't drive atv's on it can't even break a twig. so who am i to trust on this issue? i wanna do my part to help out the sport i love so much but with so much corruption i would feel better if there was a grassroots type of atv club to join that is basically made up of a bunch of pi$$ed off rednecks. and i would like to see a websight to of how many members and what has been accomplished how much money was brought in and where it all went. is this to much to ask????
Posted by: weez440
MUDDY there isn't an extremely good atv club out there. you got a bunch of clubs that are good in their own certain ways, but we need one to really stand up and go beyond and be a good one for us to follow that will save our sport. all i am asking for is the NRA of atving.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Sounds great DB, I just dont see it happening. The environmentalists dont want to work with anyone on a compromise. They want total shut down.
The envirionmentalist will never admit we have a right to any area that they could shut down to us.
I wish I shared your optimism about atvers being concerned for their environment. I just havnt ever seen much evidence of it. A few riders every now and then, but most have no respect for their neighbors let alone the land they are on.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Sadly, were on the exact same page on this. BR>
I should have recognized the sarcasm.
Posted by: mywifesquad
How is everyone doing in here today?
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
How is everyone doing in here today? hr>
Why...just <EM>lovely...</EM>how are you?
(6 long years<EM> </EM>of the above was about all this "shoot straight or don't bother" hillbilly from the swamps of southwest Michigan could 'take' of these Detroit area club members).
Im doing well, thanks for asking. You 2 seem to have a couple of disagreements in here. I, as a dirt bike rider am amazed to see 2 quad riders disagreeing. Shouldnt you 2 be attacking the dirt bike riders from mich?
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
"...Shouldnt you 2 be attacking the dirt bike riders from mich?..."
LOL!!! BR>
You know, I've spent so much time over the past few years simply fighting for the public's right to be <STRONG>heard</STRONG> (first with our atv representative to the board and then with our dirtbike chairman)...that the actual issues which today <EM>still</EM> separate us...have been given short rift! (which is a great strategy to impliment if you've got someone poking around or asking questions which may affect your "non-profit" club's cash inflow .
We've had two major atv club leaders here in Michigan over the past few years. One was thrown off the board for obvious reasons and has just recently suffered his <EM>second</EM> major member exodus....the other was his "protege" who resigned his club's leadership position to join a multi-user group council that is harder to break into than the mafioso! (I mean these guys would have to <EM>kill</EM> you if they ever revealed what they do in a group that <STRONG>our own DNR</STRONG> ....has never even <EM>heard</EM> of!).
<EM>Great</EM> bunch of 'stand-up' guys! (lol) hr>
I was just trying to lighten the mood in here a little. Re-focusing if you will.
