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Posted by: RoostItUp
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Originally posted by: TrXFoFiddyR
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Originally posted by: BrigitPheonix
TRX: If you understood ecology or biology or any science for that matter you would understand what they are trying to say. Educate yourself before making asinine comments.
Im educated enough to know that a slug does not have the same value as a human. You dont see firemen racing into the wilderness to save some slug thats in it, but you would see him going in for a human because a human is way more important than a slug, or any animal or insect for that matter.
Just because the slug doesn't have an important role in human life or culture doens't mean it's less important or valuable to the ecosysystem. If humans were to eliminate slugs from the face of the earth, there would be a HUGE niche to fill in the ecosystem where the slug was once at. Having an empty niche causes a chain reaction in nature causeing a whole line of predator prey relationships to fail making even more empty niches. It will continue to get worse like this until the niche is filled again either by slugs or some other organism evolves to fill that niche again. Thats about the simplest I can make it...hope it helps you understand.
Posted by: RoostItUp
She wasn't trying to say you're stupid by any means. But, just because humans can feel more emotions than animals doesn't mean we are essential or more valuable for keeping the ecosystem clean and in balance. Thats really how these environmentalists are judging value anyways.
Posted by: RacinJason
Granola eaters
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Mywifesquad... you have to look deeper at the issues regarding the eco warriors. Unfortunately, people give their money to these people and vote for environmental issues expecting to save the whales or virgin forests etc not knowing that the money is being used in ways that are not even close to what they had intended it to be used for. On top of this, the environmental lobby also uses it's political and legal clout to bring numerous and many times questionable lawsuits against both ATV enthusiasts, but also against the State and Federal agencies that administer current and planned programs. This causes them to use funds that would be used to build, maintain trail systems, and administer programs to defend themselves in court.
The end effect is that they have no money left over, and the environmentalists win by default.
There needs to be a fundamental shift in their thinking... because other more acceptable options are available. If they were to sit down and work with the government programs and enthusiast organizations, so much more could be acomplished. For example, their main argument has been focused on environmental damage caused by ATV's. If we could use the funds in their intended way, we could use the funding to build trails that are much more eco friendly... by using materials and techniques like building bridge/decks over environmentally sensative areas/marshland etc.. and using road base materials and drainage designs to keep areas from developing into mud holes etc. A lot of trail grooming could be accomplished as well. Education programs could be expanded to include environmental awareness with their input... The possibilities are endless...
Unfortunately, the enviro warriors are taking an all or nothing approach to the subject... and the legal system is designed to facilitate their behavior.
What can we do to fight this? Remove their funding sources is one. Call for a general public accounting on how the funds are used ( a real eye opener there) Become involved with organisations that are attending the same meetings they are testifying at and correcting the misleading data they present.. In short, we must become them to fight them...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Just wondering.. if they think and act like squirrels, should they be considered and called a squirrel?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I guess my complaint isn't against the positive work they do.. but it is the outright declaration of war that they have initiated against all forms of motorized recreation that stirs the fires.
My complaint has been and will continue to be that if the environmentalists ask you to contribute a dollar to save the whales,, that my dollar goes to actually having some effect on the whale issue. That is NOT the case however. The majority of funds go into the pockets of their lawyers, activists, and lobbiests in State and National government circles.
These same funds are what support the ongoing fight to deny the access to ATV's, Dirt bikes, 4x4's etc. Now that is all well and good if you have two good legs and a set of lungs that allow you to hike all over the woods.. but for those of us that are disabled, that is a whole other picture. They however don't care.
I admit there are a lot of trails that people used to use that are being shut down. And I admit they probably should be, as many traverse private property without any form of permission or liability protection and in many cases are damaging a fragile environment... my beef is when they fight like wild cats to keep States and local clubs from building ecologically friendly trails so we can get riders off the back roads, and on to trails designed for ATV use and still be able to do it in a amanner that protects the environment.
I believe the industry is taking steps to address the earth friendly issue. Honda has several riding centers around the country that include Environmental awareness in their coursework, and has spent a lot of money in building demonstration areas to make riders more aware of the potential damage their riding can have on the environment. Nobody asked them to do that.. they did iton their own.
ALso there are professional trail building organisations that have developed the techniques in building trails to significantly reduce the damage that can occur. Unfortunately, they never get to demonstrate that expertise because the very limited funding received for building trails is used up defending the organizations in the courts.
All this is conceptual in nature. The real question is what can I do to help this along. Certainly keeping our trash picked up, and being good neighbors is a positive start. Self policing those that do not is also important. It comes down to that leadership by example thing. We need to make sure that the new crop of riders learn the ins and outs of responsible riding.... Or they won't have a sport to enjoy.
It defeats both of us.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I think the majority of enthusiasts would support measures to be more Environmentally Friendly if that is what it is going to take to get the Environmentalists to the table in a spirit of cooperation. I can cite many examples where that has been tried. I sincerely hope that eventually they listen to the voice of reason. But to do that, they have to acknowledge that we do have a right to ride as well.
Understand also, that any form of access, to include hiking etc has it's own set of issues, and all cause damage/change to the environment. What should be logical to assume is that with acknowledgment and education comes behavioral changes, and positive action. But in a desperation/reactive mode, they are demanding total wilderness.. with no access.
There is no acknowledgement that others were there before them etc. I see no attempts to prove the environment is in danger or would be improved other than the tall grass will eventually reclaim the trails. Which I will also offer that they are in fact a benefit to many of our forest creatures as well. Deer, moose etc regularly are seen along them because it allows them to cover ground easier. Deer also thrive when in close proximity of human habitat.
No concern is given to the impact of reverting huge tracts of land to Wilderness... Adjacent property values DECREASE in many cases, economies that thrived with the traffic generated by the riders coming in to enjoy local trails are lost. Businesses close, jobs are lost, whole regions die a slow death. I don't have to stretch too far to use the logging industry as an example. All because of the spotted owl. An entire industry was devastated. And beleive me, no industry could be better managed or more concered with environmental husbanry than the forest industry period. This onl creates a dead zone off limits to man.
It comes down to egos, and the fact that there are more of them, and they are better organized. Every school child in the world is taught to be an environmentlist. I think the only reason they are singling ATV industry out is because the industry is growing at a huge rate. People are finding new uses for their machines daily... and they are afraid that in time, nobody will listen to them and give them money to continue to sell their gloom and doom.... Which is a shame, since reponsible enthusiasts are probably just as aware and concerned about the same environmental issues as they are. We want to protect what we have too, so we can enjoy the great outdoors as well... We just do it in different ways.
I don't think we are going to settle this in my lifetime... but I sincerely hope that we are able to give our children and grandchildren the tools they need to recognise the truth of what is going on, and the heart to fight for things they hold dear....
This is OUR heritage too... it may not be popular.. but ATV's do provide a great deal of worth to the present day...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I am lost here... I can't seem to draw a connection between slugs and environmental issues related to the ATV industry.... Does that make me plain stupid, or just a slug?
I do feel kinda slimy all over now though, after entering this fray.... Please be careful with the salt... But I am more happy being describred as a Rolly Polly
DB
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I'd pay money to see that.... Or eat their granola cereal and Tofu with their fingers.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree.. All it takes is people to demonstrate a little persoanl responsibility. I know we rag on kids trashing the place, and making a general nuiscence of themselves.. but they have to learn it somewhere. It is a product of poor parenting I suspect, and either they will correct the problem through peer pressure, or through closure of lands once used... either way, we all learn to become part of the mainstream eventually....
Posted by: snowbuster
I have a theory that hippies will kill them selves by the year 3000-ryan, atvconnection member.
Hey, with all their anti human race $hit they are the only ones that will fall for their own crap. If they really believe that getting rid of the human race is the "cure" why don&39;t they start by killing themselves?
Posted by: bassetboy55
I agree that the problem is they have alot of people considered high social status, they are very well organized and have financial backing like a rockafella (sp). They also have power by numbers. ughhhh its making my head spin thinking of this losing battle that we are fighting. We need an upper hand and quick.
Posted by: mywifesquad
Link
Very true, but the problem is they are well organized and very well funded. That and 1/2 of the people in this country (Based on the last few elections) agree with them or at least vote to support them. It makes me crazy if I think about it too long, because out here in ca they are winning big time.
And welcome to the forum BloodyRomance,
Posted by: mywifesquad
I agree with you DB, The environmental wackos have good intentions. I mean on the surface it looks like they care more than we do. And I believe most of them truly believe thay they do care more. The problem is that the majority of people dont think any more, they only feel. JMO
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: snowbuster
If they really believe that getting rid of the human race is the "cure" why don&39;t they start by killing themselves?
A good idea except they think they deserve to be here.
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
Just wondering.. if they think and act like squirrels, should they be considered and called a squirrel?
I guess it would be OK, just as long as they dont get more popular when called a squirrel.
Posted by: TruckDean
to all the enviromentalists out there lets see ya try to wipe your a$$es on a piece of plastic...
Posted by: garrett5462
does anyone else here call them the greenies?? there real bad here, they park a tow truck with their enviromental truck so they dont waste any time and can get back to bagging people.
Posted by: forestphantom
I still believe the best plan would be to unleash Eric Cartman on all hippies. I believe he hates them more than anyone, or atleast start with his example and have a hippie round up starting by luring them into everyone's basement's with pot and mushrooms, lock all doors and burn the houses down. After all, I believe the loss of several hippies is worth the loss of a home, it will even itself out in the end. Damn hippies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: thorrider250
damn hippies
"We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or for a social change to come and bomb us into Stone Age, where we might live like Indians in our valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our homemade religion -- guilt-free at last!" WTF is this guy on crack
" We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land. -- David Foreman, Earth First!" ......... and pee in bushes and whipe our @ss with leaves
"Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs." -- John Davis WHAT ABOUT THE SLUGS. THEY HAVE RIGHTS TOO. lol
and why do all of them want the "human race" to go extinct. man these guys are f%*kin crazy. " lets kill ourselves so the world will still be healthy" why would you care about the world if you werent living on it. man i hate hippies
Posted by: BloodyRomance
heres some quotes by some tree huggers:
http://rightwingnews.com/quotes/wacko.php
all i gotta say is that these guys are idiots and must be stopped!
Posted by: BloodyRomance
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Originally posted by: TruckDean
to all the enviromentalists out there lets see ya try to wipe your a$$es on a piece of plastic...hr>
i know everyone has that picture in their minds but trust me, plastic only makes the situation worse.
Posted by: chris15706
Ha!!! Man i hate hippies!!!! I think we all just need to make sure we dont trash the woods. Some people think its the local dump and leave all their trash there. If we all made sure trash was picked up the hippies couldnt really have the grounds to b***ch about anything. Did i mention that i hate hippies?
Posted by: TrXFoFiddyR
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Originally posted by: thorrider250
damn hippies
"We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or for a social change to come and bomb us into Stone Age, where we might live like Indians in our valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our homemade religion -- guilt-free at last!" WTF is this guy on crack
" We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land. -- David Foreman, Earth First!" ......... and pee in bushes and whipe our @ss with leaves
"Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs." -- John Davis WHAT ABOUT THE SLUGS. THEY HAVE RIGHTS TOO. lol
and why do all of them want the "human race" to go extinct. man these guys are f%*kin crazy. " lets kill ourselves so the world will still be healthy" why would you care about the world if you werent living on it. man i hate hippies
haha true hippies are very stupid and what the heck humans have no more value than slugs??? haha yes hippies need a lot of help
Posted by: TrXFoFiddyR
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Originally posted by: BrigitPheonix
TRX: If you understood ecology or biology or any science for that matter you would understand what they are trying to say. Educate yourself before making asinine comments.
Im educated enough to know that a slug does not have the same value as a human. You dont see firemen racing into the wilderness to save some slug thats in it, but you would see him going in for a human because a human is way more important than a slug, or any animal or insect for that matter.
Posted by: TrXFoFiddyR
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Originally posted by: RoostItUp
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Originally posted by: TrXFoFiddyR
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Originally posted by: BrigitPheonix
TRX: If you understood ecology or biology or any science for that matter you would understand what they are trying to say. Educate yourself before making asinine comments.
Im educated enough to know that a slug does not have the same value as a human. You dont see firemen racing into the wilderness to save some slug thats in it, but you would see him going in for a human because a human is way more important than a slug, or any animal or insect for that matter.
Just because the slug doesn't have an important role in human life or culture doens't mean it's less important or valuable to the ecosysystem. If humans were to eliminate slugs from the face of the earth, there would be a HUGE niche to fill in the ecosystem where the slug was once at. Having an empty niche causes a chain reaction in nature causeing a whole line of predator prey relationships to fail making even more empty niches. It will continue to get worse like this until the niche is filled again either by slugs or some other organism evolves to fill that niche again. Thats about the simplest I can make it...hope it helps you understand.
Yes im sure that getting rid of all slugs would mess something up but think about what would happen if the human race was wiped out. If that happend all pets in the world would probably die because they do not know how to live out in the wilderness. They survive off there masters which are the humans. Think about how many pets are out there. And im sure that not only pets would be affected by our dissaperance. Now wouldnt there not being any humans cause more damage to wildlife than there not being any slugs? This would make the value of humans higher than the value of slugs.
Posted by: TrXFoFiddyR
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Originally posted by: BrigitPheonix
The point trx is not that either species has more value than another....it is that they are both essential. The environment does more for humans than we all realize (this is called ecosystem services), and by putting some arbitrary 'value' on any species undermines most things. Just because society at this point puts a phenomenally higher value on human life than any other species does not mean that it is correct. The only reason a fireman would rush into a building and save a human as opposed to saving a slug from a forest fire is because other humans are emotionally tied to that human. But this is not the point.... As I have said before, both sides need to put aside their stereotypes of one another and realize that their are extremists on both sides, but these extremists are the minority and are not the ones affecting change. Even some of what you all would deem 'extreme environmentalists' realize that a complete reversion back to total wilderness is not possible, because it could (and most certainly would) perhaps lead to our extinction (but as we are going on our current trajectory we are headed there anyway). So herein lies the problem: There are so many different species out there that we don't know all they are doing to keep our current ecosystems functioning, and people want to look at all these species as less valuable than humans. When a species dies off, it leaves a hole in the ecosystem that can not be filled (unless by an invasive species which would cause the decimation of yet another species) and eventually the ecosystem collapses. I could go into specific examples, but that could take days. So here's the take home message: humans are stupid and don't fully grasp all that nature does for us and we are destroying it at the same rate we are coming to understand it. I'm not asking people to live in caves, just think about how we are affecting our world around us.
Humans are stupid??? Yes there are a lot of humans that are stupid but there are a lot that are not stupid too. And i dont know everything that nature does for us but I know its important. Im not stupid because i dont know everything about nature. Thats no reason for somebody to be stupid. And about the firemen thing, he goes in there to save a human life because yes there is somebody emotionally connected to that person which is another reason why humans are of more importance and value than another species. Animals and insects do not have emotions they dont think that way. They have no feelings like a human does. So no not all humans are stupid, and yes humans are more important and are of more value.
Posted by: BrigitPheonix
I know this thread is a little old, but I can't help but say something because I have a feeling these same things get said over and over again. I completely agree with DBs thoughts on this issue, but what's with the name calling? I love to ride, but I also love nature. I agree that there are a crapload of people out there who have extremist ideas about the environment, but the comments made by those that think the "damn hippies" should just kill themselves off, make those people sound like extremists too. We have to have a balance. Balance is the key and if you have ever lived in an area that is popular for ATVers you would understand. I lived in Reedsport, OR until I was 18 years old (this is basically Winchester Bay, OR) and I have watched what the increased popularity of this sport has done to my beautiful home. My favorite example is Dune Fest. When the 30,000+ people pour into this tiny, tiny coastal town, the area is overwhelmed. For one thing, our sewage treament center cannot handle the amount of waste that is produced, and will backup and overflow (they have been making some changes to this). Also, the majority of people that come seem to have no regard for the place they are in. The amount of trash that is left on the dunes is absolutely disgusting. Baby diapers, plastic wrappers, glass, aluminum, and plastic bottles...the list goes on. There has been much developement in the past few years as well with increased parking areas. When you make these extra parking areas you lose nature and places to ride. Just yesterday I was down at South Jetty in Florence, OR and I overheard some idiot screaming at the Forest Service employees that were selling parking passes. "This is ridiculous! Someone needs to realize that we need people to build this up a little! Blah, blah, blah!" And that was only about having more parking available. He didn't mean build it up so we could protect what we've got. It seems to me that people don't think about what development and lack of regulations can do. We all love to go out and ride, but if we do so without regard to nature and its fragile state, not only will the nature disappear, but we could very well lose places to ride. The more parking lots there are, the less land there is. And who wants to be going along for a wonderful ride and then run into a mound of trash? You have a right to be angry at people that want to completely shut riding down and blame us for all the damage done, but we are just as bad for wanting to disregard everything they have to say. As DB said, we need to work together to come up with a sustainable solution.
Posted by: BrigitPheonix
Again, another very eloquent argument. Both sides need very much to stop automatically writing off each other and start working together. Maybe if we keep talking moderation, sustainability, and cooperation something good will finally come out of it.
Posted by: BrigitPheonix
TRX: If you understood ecology or biology or any science for that matter you would understand what they are trying to say. Educate yourself before making asinine comments.
Posted by: BrigitPheonix
The point trx is not that either species has more value than another....it is that they are both essential. The environment does more for humans than we all realize (this is called ecosystem services), and by putting some arbitrary 'value' on any species undermines most things. Just because society at this point puts a phenomenally higher value on human life than any other species does not mean that it is correct. The only reason a fireman would rush into a building and save a human as opposed to saving a slug from a forest fire is because other humans are emotionally tied to that human. But this is not the point.... As I have said before, both sides need to put aside their stereotypes of one another and realize that their are extremists on both sides, but these extremists are the minority and are not the ones affecting change. Even some of what you all would deem 'extreme environmentalists' realize that a complete reversion back to total wilderness is not possible, because it could (and most certainly would) perhaps lead to our extinction (but as we are going on our current trajectory we are headed there anyway). So herein lies the problem: There are so many different species out there that we don't know all they are doing to keep our current ecosystems functioning, and people want to look at all these species as less valuable than humans. When a species dies off, it leaves a hole in the ecosystem that can not be filled (unless by an invasive species which would cause the decimation of yet another species) and eventually the ecosystem collapses. I could go into specific examples, but that could take days. So here's the take home message: humans are stupid and don't fully grasp all that nature does for us and we are destroying it at the same rate we are coming to understand it. I'm not asking people to live in caves, just think about how we are affecting our world around us.
Posted by: BrigitPheonix
The meaning of 'humans are stupid' is that in relation to the genius of nature we are stupid. Not that literally we have no intelligence. And this thread was started as just a rant on environmentalists. It wasn't really specific to the industry, however, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to link slugs with the ATV industry. Slugs (or any species) --> ATVs --> habitat destruction --> loss of slugs (or your other species) --> loss of ecosystem services. That wasn't exactly my point, but I thought I'd draw a picture.
Posted by: TrikeMan05
I like to ride, but, I also like nature a lot too. But these morons around here keep building houses on all of our riding spots. It is really ticking me off. I wish some of those "hippies" would come over here and rip these people a new a*hole for building houses in wetlands, and woods with endangered species of plants/animals. Pretty soon they are putting 40 condos in my woods. I am f****** pissed. It is against the law to build on wetlands and woods with endangered species. IF conservationist buy this land then I will be as happy as a school girl with new shoes. It will save this nice woods, and it will save my riding spots. Even though it will be illegal to ride on this land I will do it anyways. These spots are basically in my back yard. The way I see it is I've been here longer than they have. So, if these "hippies" want to come save the day, let them!
