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Posted by: 95wolv
Both the St Paul Press and the the Star Tribune have a long standing habit of trashing ATV and ORVs every spring, by publishing articles and pictures of "wanton damage and disregard to the environment". Last year they posted pictures showing a man with his dog almost in tears by a "trail closed " sign with big muddy ruts on the trail, blaming it on " lawless " ATV riders, when it was obvious by the size and width of the tracks, that a truck had been there, unless they make ATVs with a 6 foot wide wheel base. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the ruts were put there by the picture takers. I am all for preventing unneeded damage to woods and nature areas, but the main fact remains that a lot of states have a pitiful lack of legal riding areas and trails, leaving people that spend thousands of dollars on their trail machines with few places to enjoy,and unfortuneatly, many turn to making their own trails, trespassing, or riding in easily damaged swamp or wetland areas, which makes a lot of non riders angry at the whole sport. A lot of the basic problems could be addressed with establishing easily accessed trail systems that would keep ATVers off restricted areas, put more money in areas with increased tourism/riders buying gas, food,and renting camping areas / motels, etc. Trails for hiking, biking, horses, etc, could be kept seperate, to minimize conflicts and complaints. The money and effort it takes to do this would be well worth it in the long run.
Posted by: 95wolv
Dragginbutt,
I tried going that route, seeing that all the "editorials" posted in the Star Tribune are annonymous, no name or anything to go with it, while the Opinion page, which a lot of these "editorials" appear on, require you to submit your name,address, and work number to be allowed a few lines of comment, while the "no-namers" get a half page to spread their one sided drivel. I have tried on several occasions to get articles posted in their paper, to give a non biased, accurate counter point to the one sided slam jobs they print, but have yet to have anything accepted or printed. Seems to me a lot of our worst enemies also control the media to an extent, or are being paid to. The only pro ATV articles I see are usually from heads of the ATVAM, and then they print a blistering counterpoint to make them look as bad as possible. It would be nice to be able to get feedback printed from an equal amount of well mannered ATV crowd on their views and experiences than just the radical foaming-at-the-mouth tree huggers who ride their SUV to the woods to protest a few ruts in a muddy area ( imagine that, mud that you can't magically float over !! ) The public needs to hear more of BOTH sides, not just the slanted,hateful views of a few.
Posted by: modquad
Though the Pioneer Press is much better than the S&T, it's still very unfortunate. One of these times, I'm gonna try to locate some of these "stealth photogs" and follow them around a bit too. Hmmm, I wonder if they recycle. Do they have a wood fireplace? Are they driving a Hybrid car? I had a pleasant drive this last weekend up to my family's cabin. Along the way, there were numerous "This section of highway adopted by" and often times it was a local ATV club. Great positive exposure. Hmmm, then I got to watching for any sections adopted by an environmental group.....not a one. Could it be they are too busy worrying about what others are doing, other than doing something good themselves? Why must it be that we must continue to look over our shoulders. Last I checked, the Canadian Goose population was soooo out of wack, that the local lakes in downtown Mpls. had trails covered in droppings. Last I checked, we had a run-away deer population. Last I checked, my parents had lost 4 recently spayed cats due to eagles, wolves, etc. In general, a vastly rebounded environmental "snow-globe". Oh, and for global warming, I think Texas had more snow than the southern half of Minnesota this year.
Do the best you can while using this planet. I've personally planted more trees than a vast majority of "environmental extremists". They, like the grass between my toes will continue growing back, that's nature. If they're that obsessed over it's condition, maybe they could stop worrying about how the rest of us enjoy it, and get out themselves. BR>
I do love it when a Star and Trib rep asks me to subscribe. I affords me the opportunity to calmly and politely step up on my soapbox.....they never seem to have anything to say after that.
One thought in closing, how are we going to dispose of all these huge batteries in these "ecologically conscious" hybrid vehicles?
Posted by: modquad
Speaking of ATVAM, when are the spring and fall conventions going to start running "sport ATV" type events. The trail riding is normally a very fun time, the mud-bogs and trailer pulls are for the utilities.....kinda seems like the organization has alienated the 4x2 segment of the market. Yes, I know ATVAM works very hard in the legislative lobby, I have never doubted that. There is a large 4x2 market (also defined as potential dues paying members) in the state. All you have to do is take a visit to a local Dist 23 MX or XC race, no one wants anything to do with ATVAM. I find that kind of a bummer, since when we all unite, we can be even that much more powerful. Any type of 4x2 type event can be held within the confines of private/controlled turf (defined as away from extremist camera lenses). The 4x2 and ATV racing community is dialed in to sound testing, so that's not an issue. Let's bridge the gap, and grow the organization to the size it needs to be for an even louder political voice!!! BR>
Power to the people...especially those who ride ATV's.
Posted by: modquad
Uh, Dragginbutt, I've been an off and on ATVAM memeber. I "donate" tons of miles, substantial camera gear wear, and dirt cheap pic files to the cause. A few years back I politely and professionally suggested the same path (questioning what's in this for 4x2's).....received quite the scolding letter back from the then ATVAM president. Totally unprofessional, and a blatant attack. I understand the constant battle, and always having to "be on-guard", but when a member has a valid suggestion, an organization needs to listen.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a high school level "popularity contest" within some ranks, that is sad. I very much enjoy the members who refrain from that behavior, and make the grass roots of the organization what it is. Those who truly love to ride/race ATVs normally don't care what their political position is...yes, we need ranks, but they are a title, no a status elevation.
By coming back down to the earth we ride on, we can elevate ourselves to easily handle the environmental extremists. True colors will eventually shine through.
Please don't even try to begin "lecturing me" on times to work together, or lines of division. I fight a constant battle with dirt bikes, and snowmobilers.....constantly trying to maintain dialogue.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Sounds like a setup to me... Some tree hugger is laughing himself to sleep over that one.....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hey, why don't some of you guys up there that are volunteering your time working on the trails to improve the conditions, and limiting the damage try and update them on the positive efforts that are being carried out. I mean, equal time should be afforded right?
The bad thing is BAD news sells newspapers... and there are a lot of BAD reporters out there who think they are doing their readers justice by pointing out all the evil ATV'rs antics.
Heck, when I was a kid, our tractor used to make some ruts on the farm in the spring thaw.. I didn't see anyone out there taking pictures and making it sound like we were competing with the grand canyon...
They should be looking at ruts and mud holes as ADDED FEATURES, not something that detracts from the experience.... Maybe if you started charging extra to ride through a mudhole.....
Out here on the East coast, no self respecting enthusiast will put his machine back on the trailer unless the mud is caked so thick that you can't tell what make or model it is. What is a rut or two between friends anyway?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hear is a challenge for you... how about posting the address to the editor of these "fine" reporters of "news".. along with the article so those of us that live outside the area can write them and set the record straight. I imagine it is an act of futility, but it gives the rest of us an opportunity to get our soap boxes out of the closet as well.
Right now, I think we are seeing the environmentalist in full retreat when people like you and I stand up and tell the other side of the story and set the record straight. They have for many years gotten away with twisting facts, and half truths... and when confronted, they have consistently been putting their tail between their legs and leaving without a whisper.
My only concern is what they will use next in their battle against the evil hoard of ATV riders. Lies, twisting of faacts, pictures with empassioned alarmist rhetoric is not working any more... tying up funds that would be used to build and maintain trails with baseless lawsuites seems to be their action of choice.
I wonder if anyone has ever looked at the ratios of dollars collected to support saving baby seals and how much of it actually gets spent on the intended project. I think you will find a group of HIGHLY paid lobbyists, lawyers, and extremists that are lining their pockets off of innocent and concerned citizens. It is time that each and every environmental organization be taken to task and forced to open their doors to ridicule. Maybe then, we can shut them up and get them to play in the same sandbox. Right now, they are acting like the spoiled kid who takes his ball and goes home when things don't go their way.
The majority of ATV riders as a group are cognizant of the environmental impact their machines can have on the land. We want to work with experts to build better trails... and maintain them.. and share them with the hikers/mountain bikers etc... the real problem is that the environmental groups do not under any condition want to accept compromise and cooperation as a fundamental means for progress. The ONUS is on them now... we have put our hands out and asked them to join us at the table... unfortunately, they refuse to get their hands dirty with the same soil they are supposedly trying to save.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I hear ya.. and understand the frustration... the secret is in numbers.... if they get a large response, eventually they have to take action. Another possibility is to go to the local business owner organizations. The BBB has a strong pull.. and once convicned that their business benefits from teh $ being spent in local shops, restaurants, gas stations, motels etc... you can bet they can apply some serious pressure to sway the media. The Media is like an oil can.. they are always chasing the squeaky wheel... you just need to learn how to squeak louder...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree with that assessment fully Deeplaker... The only way that we are goin gto be able to hold our own is to band together and act responsibly. That not only entails riding "Legal" trails, and helping maintain them (YEAH, ASK YOURSELF IF THE SPORT IS WORTH YOU VOLUNTEERING A WEEKEND OR TWO LIKE DEEPLAKER AND FRIENDS) and it means we have to police ourselves. Working WITH the DNR in most cases is a positive step.
Also, Modquad I feel your pain on the 2 versus 4 wheel issues... I think you have a good feel for what needs to be done... perhaps by joining and becoming involved in the planning etc of 2 wheel events, you can help diversify their offerings. The secret is involvement... and getting your buddies to join in as well.
This is not a time where division will serve either of our efforts.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Exactly... a few very forward thinking persons like yourself ARE getting involved with trail maintenence.. and are concerned with building trails smarter, so that they CAN handle the increased numbers of riding. Our roads in VA are a very good example of no matter how well they design them, they wear out by constant pressure of litterally millions of road miles being driven on them. They design for what they feel is realistic in 10 years, and those miles are compressed into two... The same goes for our trails. We MUST do a better job of building our trails, and maintaining them. The DNR is not funded, or equipped to perform this vital function.. and it falls on you and me to pick up the slack...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Do the numbers reflect the people from out of state that may use the trails on multiple occasions each year? I suspect there are a lot of Illinois and Iowa citizens that regularly use what ever trail system they can get to on several occasions each year. I know I would. When I was back in Wisconsin last summer surveying my 9 acres in Monroe county, I lost count of how many quads on trailers I saw on I-90 when I reached over 200. That says a lot about the sheer numbers of enthusiasts using what limited resources you currently have in the inventory. I am not as up on teh MN trails, but WI sure has a lot of areas available for use.
I almost bought me another piece of land this past week that the trail system crosses to put up a resort/camp ground catering to ATV riding... still thinking about it... but Mrs DB wants to move to Florida to be closer to our new grandchild... Dern woman...the things we do for love... Then there is that part that I just spent 30 Grand on a new business and trailer that I will be setting up when I get there.... Yep, there is that too....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
That's unfortunate... can't really argue that.. not intending to any way... sounds like you have tried and had a few doors slammed on your toes... Sorry to hear that....
Please don't take my comments as a personal lecture... that was not the intent.... I do however feel that the only way to combat the frustration you are feeling, it does take a group voice.. the more the better. I also am looking at the big picture here.. not focused on 2 wheel versus 4 wheel.. track versus trail riding etc... We are in a struggle to keep ATV's in general.... and open access to the many riding areas that exist today. This is not a subject that is isolated in MN... it is all across the nation.
I applaud your attempts to be involved... it didn't work in your case... but what did you do about it afterwards? Did you try to put together an organization that is focused on your riding choices? Chances are you ride with a group that thinks much like you do...
I guess without sounding like a lecture... I just want to provide encouragement to keep your involvement going and hopefully convince others that they need to stand up and add their voice too.
When you hit a brick wall, make a right turn and move around it... You know, there is a famous General in the civil war who's army was defeated time and time again.. and instead of quitting, he turned his army, and went around the opposing force and attacking once more. He did this several times, marching south through Virginia, getting his tail whipped, turning and attacking again and again... Finally, the opposing General ran out of men and supplies, and the Civil War was over. That man's name was US Grant... and the Opposing General was Robert E. Lee.
It comes down to staying in the fight. We need your voice and your actions if we intend to stay on the battle field.
Posted by: Scooter86
How about a quick synopsis of what went down? I'm not signing up for a website I'll likely never visit again.
Posted by: hondabuster
According to the MNDNR website, that trail was open, at the time of the ride. This was incorrect. This wasnt the only trail incorrectly shown open at the website. In fact I posted a thread about 3 weeks ago, pointing this out.see this thread
Then, there was supposed to be a sign posted at the trail head, noting the seasonal closure of the trail, and that sign was missing. This seems to be more of a problem lately, and some have even suspected those very same enviro-wacos, as being the ones responsible for taking down the signs, and there by being an accesory to the problem of people riding unknowingly , in sensitive areas, and showing up later, to take the pictures..which is actually kind of smart of them.
No one was doing any excessive mud churning, or rutting, in fact most people tried to ride around the low spot, everyone acted responsibly, and even after it was pointed out, that the trail was closed, every one accepted that decision and took the detour.
ATVAM, has said it will repair any damage done, and there wont be any hit to the taxpayers of MN.
The DNR has said no citations were issued, or will be issued, over the incident, there by indicating the unintentional nature of what happened.
"Then, with all the news media following the governor around, some members do something incredibly stupid."
Im not sure what your point is...but im proud to be a member of ATVAM, and the good they do for ALL atv riders of the state, whether or not they belong to the organization or not. I saw no stupid behavior, nor did the dnr.
Posted by: hondabuster
Draginbutt, Always good to hear your point of view.
Got this email today...
The session ended with a whimper Monday night --- Sen.
Marty passed HF460 -- a DNR bill with many of the same
non-controversial provisions that are in the Finance bill
-- Rep. Hackbarth, the House author decided against trying
to conferee the bill so it died along with the session.
Gov. Pawlenty called a special session immediately
following the adjournment of the regular session. Both
bodies will continue to work on the conference committees
they were working on during regular session -- right now
not much is happening on the Environment Finance bill
because there is a disagreement between the House &
Governor and the Senate on the LCMR reform issue. Until
that is settled, it is unlikely the committee will get any
spending targets to complete the bill. Look for this all
to drag out several more weeks minimum.
An ATV/OHV subgroup has been appointed by the conference
committee chairs and has met several times to discuss OHV
issues. Several decisions have been made by the subgroup
-- to accept the OHM sound language, and several other tech
changes made by the DNR. The group is also looking at
feasibility study type language for the North Shore trail
-- it is being developed to bring back to the group.
The big areas of disagreement are the gas tax study - our
anti-access friends and Sen. Ruud and Marty are attempting
to dilute the study so we cannot collect as much funding
for our account. In addition, Sen. Marty wants the money
for the Ambassadors program to be available for his
anti-access friends to use against us. Both totally
unacceptable positions.
Both of these augments that are being used against us
really show the true agenda behind these folks. They just
don't want ATVs out on "their" public lands -- period. In
fact, if most had their way, all ATVs & OHVs would be made
illegal, period.
We need to continue to fight them every inch of the way.
If you have not contacted your state representative and
state senator do so as soon as possible. Let them know
that we need their support to fight off these so called
environmentalists who are attempting to deny us access to
our public lands. Please do that today!!
ATVAM will continue to watch the conference committee
during the special session & be available to help on any
OHV language.
"Ride as if everyone is watching; Talk as if everyone is
listening . . ."
www.atvam.org
If you live in mn and want 15 bucks to go a long way....join the atvam, its only 15 bucks, and they are watching over the issues which effect us all. And dont forget to contact your represenative and let them know, youre not a wacko, and you enjoy the atv hobby, and you would like continued access to the woods,and youd like their support. Also remember which of the legislators are the anti atv ones, and dont vote for them, and remind your family and friends to not vote for them.
Posted by: rescuediver
It would not surpise me "IF" a tree hugger organization removed the sign. Especially, "IF" they happen to be in the right spot for a photo opIt's funny (not really) how in the last few years, they have actually shot themselves in the foot, by fabricating or stating facts to the courts. And, when further investigation shows, their "records" are inaccurate or possibly fraudulant.
Posted by: yamihoo
That newspaper is a liberal BSing piece of garbage, they put nothing but crap out. DONT DO THEM A FAVOR AND VISIT THE WEBSITE!!!
If you see the "Trail Damage" its a joke! Its just another typical little water hole. Totally over blown.
It was a spring melt run off creek crossing a trail, it should have been closed, DNR admitted that, they closed that trail immediately, temporarily for repair.
It will open again, and this will just go away, its rediculous. Are the tree huggers/land lovers there to protest a new highway? or road? Hypocrites!
Posted by: yamihoo
Good stuff Modquad! Where are all these hyprocrits, I never hear of anything they are "doing" besides following us around waiting for, or creating false moves.
Posted by: yamihoo
Yeah I read that today, it does sound grim. I just hope the people who support anti-access realize it could turn around to bite them.
Posted by: yamihoo
Sure we should listen to them, and they should listen to us. Look how many articles or incidents there really are to report damage etc...not very many. They have to search hard to find these little areas where ATVer's shouldn't be riding.
Same old thing, a couple bad apples spoil the batch. If you look at how many people do follow the rules its just the same as anything else. Car drivers, boat drivers etc. Many more people follow the rules than those that don't.
And I believe in most cases its ignorance, they just don't realize what they are doing, and then some don't care sure.
Its easy to follow a group of people doing anything and find someone breaking the rules. We "ATVAM" do put up a fight and present our facts. Its human nature to pay more attention to whats "wrong" then whats "right".
Do you congradulate someone every time they do something right? probably not
Do you scold someone everytime they do something wrong? probably
Posted by: yamihoo
My "bad apples" reference was simply referring to the BS media attacking us ATV riders as if we all act that way. I'm not using that as a cop out.
Of course our local clubs participate in trail maint., I do my part when I'm out and about riding. Obviously those that choose to be a member here and other clubs are trying to contribute. We are banning together, whos' dividing? We have Polaris and Arctic Cat here in MN help fight as well. This state has a lot legislation and a lot of market persuasion. Yet we still lack trails, or people lack the knowledge of using them.
Deep Laker, Where do you get your data on 830,000 people riding in MN?
Is there really 600,000 non registered machines? MN DNR Registration Data
Posted by: yamihoo
Yeah thats fine if they use those numbers, but as long as the data they collect is correct and not Michael Moore styleBR>
I'd imagine we have a lot of out of state riders, much like WI and MI. I see non residents not respecting local laws and trails, quite commonly. Its very unfortunate. I've heard people talk with the attitude, I'm here for one weekend and I pay $20 to ride these trails, I'm going to rip them up or whatever I want to have a good time. Yep, they're out there.BR>
DB so you're moving to WI? I have rode there a few times, sledding and quadding, in fact my cabin is a mile away from WI border in the Nemadji State forest. At the time I dont' have to worry about issues in that area, its way under occupied for riders with a vast amount of trails. But I still choose to get involved if I can.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Here's one way to make front page news. This is from today's St. Paul (MN) Pioneer Press: http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/11633215.htm
The state ATV association holds its annual spring convention, and even gets the governor to come. Then, with all the news media following the governor around, some members do something incredibly stupid. The association, and ATV'ers in general, would have been better off if they had held their convention in secret.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
The article says nearly 100 members of the All-Terrain Vehicle Association of Minnesota tore up a trail near where they were holding their convention. Of course, there were quotes from the head of a tree hugger organization clucking his tongue at the "severe" damage.
The trail had been closed, but not posted as being closed, is one excuse given in the article. An ATVAM official is quoted as indicating that some trail damage may have happened prior to the convention. I'm afraid no amount of excuses can neutralize the negative image projected by this article.
Here is the subhead from the article:
"Incident comes as lawmakers weigh education aid for groups"
As you probably know from other posts on this site, Minnesota ATV organizations were trying to forestall trail closures due to pressure from environmental groups. They had convinced many legislators to support a bill granting funds to the organizations for enforcement of ATV regulations and education aimed at helping riders understand the regulations. This incident comes just at the time that bill is before the legislature.
Unless the ATVAM can pull some rabbits out of some helmets, my money is now on the trail closures.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Hey Hondabuster—
Your posting of May 3 did point out the problem of inaccurate info on trail closures. Too bad more people didn&39;t pay attention. And from what I&39;ve seen over the years, it does seem very plausible that enviro-wackos would have removed trail-closed notices to create an incident like this. I can also imagine them putting up signs directing riders into closed areas and then getting the ATV&39;ers arrested.
It just goes to show you, we&39;ve got to be smarter than they are and not fall for tricks like that. Before you bring hundreds of riders into an area, you make sure which trails are open and which are closed.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
I just did a Google on --Star Tribune ATV-- and the first article that popped up was headlined "Tracks on the land: Nature pays the price as ATVs hit Minnesota's woods" (http://www.startribune.com/stories/531/1633242-2.html)
The first part of the article documents, unfortunately, more than a little damage to woodlands by ATV'ers riding on logging roads and game trails by spinning their wheels and cutting ruts through wetlands ("mudding,” they called it). The big gripe seems to be ATV'ers riding off the legal trails.
It's such a long article, most people probably don't read all of it. The copy editor who wrote the headline obviously didn't.
The last of the article gives an ATV'er perspective. You might even say it was somewhat positive toward recreational ATV'ing. Here is one quote from that section:
"Tim Browning, DNR trails and waterways regional manager in Brainerd, said the DNR's policy is to offer ATV riding opportunities, including mudding areas, where the environmental effects can be controlled.
"We know that desire, we know that urge is there to see what their machine can do," he said. "They want the challenge, and so we're going to provide it."
However, one thing I learned from the article, and we all need to keep in mind, is that moaning about tree huggers is not the answer to our problems. Much of the negative comment in the article came from farmers, landowners, an Ojibwe tribal official, the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association and the Izaak Walton League.
I frankly don't listen to tree huggers. They have no credibility. But we'd better listen to some of these other folks. It's not just the tree huggers who are getting p----d off.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
So many people seem to believe the problem is "just a couple of bad apples." There will always be bad apples, that's a given. There always have been, in every pursuit, even religion. So its a moot point.
What we need to look at is the fact that there is extensive damage, and if we don't get a handle on that, regulations will get more an more restrictive, there will be fewer and fewer places to ride, and eventually people wanting to outlaw ATV's could prevail.
Better enforcement of current regulations would probably help, as would being pro-active and pushing for regulations that will reduce damages, and that we can live with. Trail design and maintenance would also be factors.
I think there are also psycological factors. If you own a machine that will take you anywhere, you'll want to go everywhere. I'll admit to that. I really like the idea of not needing a trail. And, that might have been OK where there were only a few ATV'ers riding around the woods. But, when you have 830,000 people riding ATV's in Minnesota alone, the landscape can get torn up fast.
We've got to find effective solutions, and passing off the problem as just "a few bad applies" will not make it go away.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
I got that 830,000 number from one of the newspaper articles. I think it was the Star-Trib that came up with that number from a survey they did. They are probably saying there are a lot of people that don't own an ATV, but still ride them. That's good for us. So, let friends try out your ATV. Then, if they are surveyed and one of the question is, "Have you ever ridden an ATV," they can answer "Yes." The bigger our numbers, to more weight we carry politically and economically.
Posted by: DeeDawg
QUOTE from Dragginbutt I suspect there are a lot of Illinois and Iowa citizens that regularly use what ever trail system they can get to on several occasions each year.
I have seen a lot of our friends from Canada, as well.
