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Posted by: Dragginbutt
Check out my thread titled notice to the American public on this site...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
whether it is true or not, it gets people thinking we are all hooligans by association. This is just the kind of half truths that will sink us. My first inclination would be to challenge the guy to see if he has seen this first hand, or if it was a friend of a friend talk around the horse manure pile...
The REAL culprit here, is the newspaper printing something that they have not verified... or taken any time to get the facts right. The first rule of journalism is to get your facts straight, and understand that there are at least two sides to every story. Responsible reporters would make sure they had both in the pocket prior to going public. Otherwise, they run the chance of pulling a Dan Rather... Of course they probably sell more papers with substandard reporting...
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
If the sign is on public property and someone put it up then make sure to report it.
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CVC 38302. It is unlawful for any person to place or erect any sign, signal, or traffic control device for off-highway traffic upon public lands unless authorized by law.Added Ch. 1093, Stats. 1976. Effective January 1, 1977.
As a community we need to remember that we too, can use the law for our side.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
On the topic of people moving into an area and then complaining this really irks me.
This happened in Fresno around the airport. Orignally Fresno-Yosemite Internation Airport (FAA Code: FAT) was an US Army Air Force (note the name....we're talking PRE-WWII) base by the name of Hammer Field. The Government gave the base property to the City of Fresno (I'm typing from some of that city owned land as a matter of fact) to build an airport and to use. There's actually a copy of the docs in the office files. Anyways. In the late 40s, early 50s houses started to be built in this area.
The Air Force retained a small part of the airport and stations the 144th Fighter Wing from there. There's also ramps for the Army National Guard (Heli. Maintenance Yard), Marine Corps (formerly a LAAM batallian) and a Army reserve yard adjacent.
People started complaining about the noise as jets became more popular and the 144th went to flying F-4 Phantoms. The city ended up buying some of the closest houses to the runways and actually demolished them...they are now a vacant dirt lot used by one of the private FOBs for parking. The other homes in the and bording the glide path have been retrofitted for sound.
Thing is, most of these people that ocmplain about the noise moved in AFTER the airport was built! I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't buy a house near the airport. I'm about 4-5 miles away...maybe I should complain because the south bound airplanes fly over my house to make a u-turn to land at the airport during prevailing wind conditions (out of the NW, runways are 29L(short) and 29R(main) or 11L(main) and 11R(short).)
This same thing goes on with people around riding areas.
They (the desert new-comers) complain about the natural beauty being destroyed...well I think their houses are destroying the natural beauty of the desert.
I've seen new houses (looking pretty expensive) going in close to Hollister Hills SVRA. These people should NOT be allowed to complain. They moved into the area. They knowingly purchased property adjacent to the property. This is the same thing with people who bought next door to Oceano Dunes (Pismo). People have been playing on the beach for 100 years now. Long before ANY house in the area was built.
One of the big problems is they want to confine OHV use into smaller and smaller areas, while the sport is expanding. It's one thing to cramp a static population into an area, which is bad in and of itself. But you are also adding more to that population. You are concentrating more use on less ground...you're going to have problems. Look at highways. High traffic freeways have a lot of wear and tear. Same thing with trails.
I in no way condone trespassing. Out in the desert, they do need to sign their property. You don't need errect the Great Wall of China out there. If someone takes down the sign, you need to enforce the existing laws on that. People are up in arms to make new laws...use what you have.
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
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Originally posted by: rescuediver
DB, out here the journalist don't bother verifiing what they reportThey only believe in their side. The other side, can submit a letter, less then 100 words to the paper. This can be put in the "Letter to the Editor" section of the paper. Of course, the paper can edit the articleif, they feel the need to
Your last sentence says it allhr>
Don't get my boss started on the press. LOL. We were yacking this AM and he was taling about how you never hear about someone using a gun to protect themselves, or someone else. I wonder what, if any are the real stats on that subject?
Posted by: motox26
I feel it is sh!tty how he refers to riders as outlaws and we are the "bad" guys, but isn't the article just refering to riders tresspassing on other peoples property? I am sure there is other motives behind this article such as stopping ORV's period, but really people tresspassing is giving the rest of us a bad name and more amo for those people who have nothing better to do but b!tch about something.
Maybe because I don't live out there I am misinterpretting the article, but I take it as they are just complaining about tresspassers. What is your take?
Posted by: motox26
Okay that is what I thought, he is trying to take the idiot riders and paint the picture as all riders are this way. I like what OFC said, don't buy land in riding areas!
Posted by: motox26
OFC and J4K bring up good points. A properly trained horse should not get spooked by ORV's and what not. Now Im not a horse expert, but my buddy lives on a ranch with about 15 or so horses give or take on the time a year, and we ride quads around them all the time and they act as if they are not even there. And it must not take long to tame em if you know what ur doing, cause they buy (and sell) horses all the time untammed and before to long they are out riding about fine quads or no quads around.
Posted by: Just4Kicks
Please read the following article lableing off-road vehicle users as OUTLAWS! This may not be happening in your backyard but it may sooner than you know. Let's band together and protect our right to ride and set the record straight that we are not OUTLAWS! Please read the article and then go up to the Feedback button and offer your input. Please keep it civil and offer some intelligent responces or the local paper will not publish it. I am sorry to say that not many locals have stood up to the city slickers moving to our area trying to shut us down. We were here first!! I know for a fact that Phil Klasky, the author of this pethetic article, has only lived here a short time and came from the big city. PLEASE HELP!!
Thanks a bunch!!
Posted by: Just4Kicks
Best thing to do is to offer feedback to the article itself so that others who read the paper and have read the article will also have a chance to read the opposition. Above the article is a tab that reads "Feedback". Click that and you see a screen that looks like
this
Click the "Add Comment" button and have your say. Your comment will be posted in the paper under the "Feedback" section as well as on thier internet site.
Thanks for your concerns!
JFK
Posted by: Just4Kicks
What he is refering to is a very small minority of individuals who do not respect the law. Unfortunately, he wants to lump every law abiding rider into the same group of "outlaws" as the few. I suppose you have to live here or at least in Southern California to fully understand the opposition that we face everyday. This is not about a few law breakers, it is about an agenda and the way it is presented is very misleading in the least. I read the local paper every week and in it is a list of police calls and responses. The list includes the time, date and location the police were called to the scene, the nature of the crime / accident / or incident and if an arrest was made. I have seen everything from drug possesion, violent assult, robbery, traffic accident, unregistered sex offender at location where children are present, and many more. I have also seen illegal trespassing reported...about 2 or 3 times in an entire year. Trust me, this problem has been blown WAY out of proportion to help support the agenda of those that just don't think we should be riding in our desert...PERIOD!
I will dig up a response by the owner of the local ATV / Mortorcycle shop and post it so you can see another side.
Posted by: Just4Kicks
Here you go.
Responsible citizens ride off road
By Chris Hutchins / For the Star
Terrorist, trespassers, outlaws, irresponsible harassers? I have news for the ORV Watch and Phil Klasky ("The Soapbox," Feb. 23). They are bankers, lawyers, insurance agents, doctors, veterinarians, contractors, grocery workers, teachers, law enforcement officers, town councilmen, staff and yes, motorsports dealers. They are not at all like the people Phil use to push their agenda. Our community is not like what Phil describes. He is wrong in portraying us, people who have lived here for decades and have used off-road vehicles responsibly, incorrectly. This is his personal work. It is a wrong inflicted on him that he will correct come hell or high water. Never mind the history. Use all of the vague generalities at hand.
The small group of people who do abuse their neighbors simply should not. They should be contacted, cited, fined and if necessary, put in jail. There is no excuse for their behavior. These people are the same one percenters that, all over America, do the same thing using other forms of harassment. The way I do the math, that leaves 99 percent of good, honest, law-abiding community members.
Make no mistake about their goals. They want our area to change faster than it is. They feel they know better than anyone how private and public land should be used and by whom. They say they want to educate, but really the agenda is to levy "bigger fines, confiscate vehicles and jail people" and get them back. Ultimately, they want our off-road vehicles to go away forever. I would love to introduce Phil and his group to our customer base, to the real people who overwhelmingly enjoy and live better lives because of our products. They really already know them. They are our community members!
And now, as Phil runs into road blocks they have no sensible solutions for, they will go on the attack with environmentalists who will blame every ill ever conceived in the desert on, who else, the off-road vehicle users. They will use every weapon in their arsenal.
Our town is growing, there is no doubt. And I do feel for all those who have been abused by people. But to think that there will be enough enforcement, signs and laws to solve this problem in just wrong.
In comparison to some of the other social ills we have in our community, namely drugs, parolee issues, sex offenders et. al., I am sure glad law enforcement has the common sense which issues take priority.
If you enjoy your off-road vehicle, ride responsibly, and want to continue to do so, you must get involved. You need to contact your town or city council and let them see that we, the responsible riders, care about our neighbors, our environment and our community. Heck, we even care about Mr. Klasky.
In the short time Mr. Klasky has lived in the Hi-Desert, he seems to have painted the residents and visitors here with one brush. He could not be more wrong.
Posted by: Just4Kicks
The trespassing is not a huge problem here, it is blown out of proportion. I know this area well as I have family that homesteaded here back in the 1940's. I wonder how many of these OHV haters can say that! I can also show you scores of locations that people / property owners have put up "NO TRESPASSING" and "KEEP OUT" signs on trails that ARE NOT PRIVATE! There is a cable route near my inlaws property where someone actually put up a gate with a "NO TRESPASSING" sign. It is not locked and apparently only there to keep outsiders out but it is not legal either. I know of many locations of imminant domain that people have put up signs and made unfounded threats agianst anyone who enters.
The horsemen in my area absolutely HATE off-roaders. They claim they spoke the horses...probably so. So I guess they have nowhere to ride? WRONG! There is this little park called...oh what is the name...oh yes, Joshua Tree National Monument which is over 1200 square miles and located less than one mile from my house. It is an equestrian hevan and no off-roaders are allowed to enter. I guess that sort of puts a nail in that coffin huh?
Posted by: Just4Kicks
Funny you should say that OFC. My mom has 4 horses (one is my little girl's) and says the exact same thing. I guess that's the difference between a "real" horseman and a city slicker wanna be cowboy.BR>
That's good advice BlackandRed and I'm going to do just that! I guess I'd need to go down to the Sheriff office and point these locations out on a map because I'd never be able to describe them over the phone...they are well off the beaten path.
Posted by: Just4Kicks
A guy I know of (not personally but through my father-in-law) had a nice Baja he used to drive all over the desert. He also had a pretty nice sand rail. He lives next to a wash, a public sand wash that was there and used by off-roaders long before his house was ever there. He has since (as rumored by my brother-in-law) scattered nails all over the sand wash and posted no trespassing signs to keep out the very people that he use to be. What an Ahole!
Posted by: Just4Kicks
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
Check out my thread titled notice to the American public on this site...
Dragginbutt's thread
Very well said Dragginbutt! You speak for the many, including myself. Those that calls us "outlaws" speak for the very few.
Posted by: Just4Kicks
Deeplaker60...very nice input. You definitely have the right ideas.
Mr. Klasky is in no way affiliated with the local paper but I can see how that would be misleading. He has written articles on this topic in other local publishing&39;s as well and is trying to rally support for an all out ban on ALL off-highway use in our local deserts. The article I posted here is somewhat mild compared to some of his other publishing&39;s but it was in an on-line format so I was able to share this one easily. We have come to know Mr. Klasky (by "we" I mean local OHV enthusiasts) as a hard-core left wing environmentalist with a fist in the air, a smooth pen, and ability to assemble others like him. He is from San Francisco, what we call THE BIG CITY, and has acquired property here in our desert community recently. I do not believe he is a full-time resident and obviously does not care about those who are if they do not share his ideologies. He is an individual with an agenda and will stop at nothing until he is satisfied. I have met people just like him in the past and know that his attacks must be countered "intelligently" and "firmly" and with the support from others who wish to continue to enjoy the sport responsibly. He does not care about responsible riders or quite exhausts, he came to the desert wanting it to be exactly what he wants and wanting it only for himself and other just like him. Well, he isn't going to get it without a fight. Again, I live here and have come to know him more than just from this article. He is a threat and his threats will be countered...at least they will by me.
I have a bumper sticker idea: "JUST SAY 'NO' TO PHIL KLASKY"
Another note: Phil Klasky has admitted to chasing off ATV riders from local washes on public land. These washes were re-opened to all OHV use by the BLM after a habitat study of the desert tortoise was terminated due to a lack of evidence that OHV use is detrimental to their existence. What right does he have to do this?
Posted by: confusedbuyer
yep, narrow-minded..... so what can we do? send a letter to the editor? OR, post here? OR?????
Posted by: rescuediver
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
whether it is true or not, it gets people thinking we are all hooligans by association. This is just the kind of half truths that will sink us. My first inclination would be to challenge the guy to see if he has seen this first hand, or if it was a friend of a friend talk around the horse manure pile...
The REAL culprit here, is the newspaper printing something that they have not verified... or taken any time to get the facts right. The first rule of journalism is to get your facts straight, and understand that there are at least two sides to every story. Responsible reporters would make sure they had both in the pocket prior to going public. Otherwise, they run the chance of pulling a Dan Rather... Of course they probably sell more papers with substandard reporting...
DB, out here the journalist don't bother verifiing what they reportThey only believe in their side. The other side, can submit a letter, less then 100 words to the paper. This can be put in the "Letter to the Editor" section of the paper. Of course, the paper can edit the articleif, they feel the need to
Your last sentence says it allBR>
Posted by: OneFlyCowboy
People that tresspass knowingly Piss me off. However if the land aint posted and there is no boundry lines liek a fence or sompin. and its in a place like the desert where people been riding for years an all the sudden people move in and buy a piece. how do they know where the line is. its a dual responsibility by both owners and riders. riders should know the area they riding in, but at the same time its the owners responsibilty to define and post his property. if its not defined or posted you have no grounds to bitch about it. and honestly if you have a problem with OHVs Buy land somewhere thats NOT IN A RIDING AREA have they ever thought of that? i mean WTF is wrong with people. you know the people in the area ride ORVs and if you dont like them please go somewhere else america is a big friggin country and ORVs do not have access to but a miniscule portion of it. like in washington. HOLY CRAP we have a tremendous amount of state land & wilderness areas and ORVs have access to im gonna say less than 1% passive use (hikers, horses, bicycles) have access to 100%.
Posted by: OneFlyCowboy
Quote
Originally posted by: Just4Kicks
The horsemen in my area absolutely HATE off-roaders. They claim they spoke the horses...probably so. So I guess they have nowhere to ride? WRONG! There is this little park called...oh what is the name...oh yes, Joshua Tree National Monument which is over 1200 square miles and located less than one mile from my house. It is an equestrian hevan and no off-roaders are allowed to enter. I guess that sort of puts a nail in that coffin huh?
Well i think people with horses are often time lacking the savvy to properly de-sensitize them to the sounds as well as be a good and just leader for their horses. I have absolutly not a single problem with quads, trucks, airplanes whatever with all 14... 13 one just died of our horses. I can be out riding me horse and my brother can spin donuts around my wide open and my horse doesnt even flinch. its all about proper training. If you wanna ride your horse in an area with ORVs your need to teach them that they will not hurt them. its really pretty simple. just because they are incompetent horsemen does not mean ORVs should go away. what it means is they need to develop the skills to better communicate with their animals. Hell i run down tresspassing ORVs on our ranch with the horses. i run em down on my quads too. whatever i have handy ya know. our ranch is clearly posted along all borders so thats whats a bunch of crap for us. but i cant blame people for wanting to ride on our nice groomed 8'6 wide clay track thru the woods with nice hill climbs and stuff. we will just have to put a fence up around the entire perimiter to limit their temptations
Posted by: OneFlyCowboy
your reffering to the narrowmindedness of the opposition to ORV Activities?
Posted by: Deeplaker60
What a mess! Putting up no trespassing signs on private land is something that rarely happens around here. You would get turned in real quick.
Some state laws say that landowners don't have to post their land. It's up to you to know what is private and what is public land. This article points out why it is so important to make sure you stay off of private land and ride only on designated trails. People are too quick to use isolated incidents to produce articles like this.
I just hate to hear quiet sports types complaining about motor sports spoling natural areas. If they are so concerned about keeping an area unspoiled, they should stay out too. In most of these disputes, it's just one group of users trying to exclude another.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Quote: "Putting up no trespassing signs on private land is something that rarely happens around here. You would get turned in real quick."
Correction--I meant "public" land.
That horse thing tripped my crap detector too. I've ridden by horses many times and have never seen any spooked by my ATV. I suppose it may have happened somewhere at one time or another, but it's hardly the norm judging by my experience and those descibed here by others. The problem is that one ornery, skittish animal spooks, the story gets out, and horse owners who don't have good crap detectors all panic. Rumors spread and then we see articles like this one.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
I just noticed something when I re-read that article. The byline says, "By Phillip Klasky / For the Star." They wouldn't have that qualifier, "For the Star," after the author's name if it was written by one of their staff. This was just someone in the community expressing an opinion, and it probably appeared on the editorial page. It looks like we were all jumping to a lot of conclusions here. Anyone else in the community could write an article "For the Star" in opposition to this opinion.
There are right ways and wrong ways to counter such opinions. Any article written to counter this opinion piece should first acknowledge any truth in it, then cite any mitigating circumstances: "Yes, ATV's can be noisy, but many of the ones being built today are considerably quieter." Don't get argumentative, just cite facts. This makes the writer of the original piece look radical.
Print up flyers urging visitors to ride responsibly and stay on the trails. The flyers could even contain a reprint of this article. Talk to the newspaper editor and get permission to reprint. Stroke him or her by saying it could help solve the problem. You want the editor to print something about the flyers being passed out by responsible ATV'ers. Set up a photo op of kids passing them out at gas stations, and mention that visiting ATV'ers buy gas and a lot of other things in the community. Maybe the kids passing out the photos even have a dog with them. Kids and dogs make for photos everyone likes to see.
There are a lot of other things you can do, but I'm not going to write a textbook on ATV public relations here. You get the idea.
Posted by: Pepperminty
Thanks for posting this...In a few weeks I have a college presentation about the affects of riding to the environment...This is the perfect article to express how narrow-minded some people truly are. I appreciate finding this. Thank you.
Posted by: Pepperminty
Of course, those who opposing ATVs and other vehicles.
Posted by: nhmudbear
It isn't just atvs that cause a problem in NH. we have people move in for peace and quiet like the article says, in the off season ,and the real estate people don't tell them we have a stockcar track and a quartermile drag strip nearby. These tracks have been here for over twenty years and the dragstrip had a petition to save it. If it wasn't saved then town could have put in condos, etc. and got more tax money. A housing development was built in woods beyond far end of strip. To me if houses are built near a preexisting trail they should expect noise, etc. We used to have horses[hay burners] and the noise didn't bother them.
