Posted by: rodman922

Posted by: rodman922

Posted by: Bing

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ATV'er killed

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
They will learn when...

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Posted by: blackballed

Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...The subject of lights being used in daytime is a good subject for debate. One thing that many forget is that lights serve two purposes. One to see with, the other is to be seen. We sometimes forget the second part.....

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"I think I know where you are going with this... not sure if increased fines, and new laws requiring safety gear is the right answer, but we can sure build a case that it would make a difference. The problem is that even though you put stickers on the machines telling you to wear them, they are ignored...".

If they are ignoring the stickers....then it's pretty darn hard to ignore the money flying out of their pocketbooks.

"....The other issue is that laws of this nature are handled at the state level, so getting all 50 states to act as one is pretty hard, considering the motorcycle industry fights that have resulted in mixed results....."

I think we are overestimating the problem here. Michigan has laws on the books (which I'm sure mirror many other states) which simply demand that you act like you've got the good sense God gave you when operating an atv. The problem is, everybody in this community is afraid to go into these places like WV., KY., TN., etc. and start pointing out that it is their complacency on these issues that will get OUR rights taken away from us. Why these consumer advocacy groups haven't swept in on these places and tried to paint these doubled up, helmetless riders as examples of the manner in which the rest of this country acts and is truly like...is beyond me! (and god help us if they ever figure this out.

"...still think that increased focus on mandatory training and information availability are viable options....."

Agreed, I just don't think the word "mandatory" means a darn thing if their isn't a "fine" big enough behind it that truly defines the word.

"....Not sure I'd use that bicycle analogy though. Compaired to the numbers of bike accidents and deaths per year etc... ATV statistics are only scratching the surface in comparison....."

Sorry for the confusion, I was just using the bike analogy to illustrate the fact that if you aren't intelligent enough to figure certain things out for yourself or have me/somebody else "explain" them to you....then maybe "a bicycle" should be the only conveyance you should be allowed to swing your leg over (at least 9 times out of 10 they don't blame 'the bike' for your mishap and you are most always correctly labeled as you should be).

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Posted by: blackballed

We've got people killing themselves on sleds every year here in Michigan also. The difference being that your average snowmobile association member understands the value of having top-notch representation in all things political and "PR"...while the average atver is content that groups go to important CPSC meetings hollering about how "You can't legislate responsibility" while standing right next to our national guys like they were brothers.

There isn't a person in my state who I'd point to as the "go to guy" on atv issues....and we have THREE THOUSAND miles of trails!

How long do you think it takes before those "agin us"....figure this all out?

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: KINGSCLEAR
Our biggest problem here is booze and speed. Hands down drinking is the main reason for snowmobiling deaths combined with speed of course. 4 out of five up here are drinking related

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...which is why the snowmobilers here in Michigan joined forces with others and created a huge PR campaign concerning it.....and the atvers can't even manage to show up at their advisory board meeting every 3 months.

I'm telling you, these "old school" orv users make us all look like just a bunch of chumps and absolutely nothing else (I wouldn't admit what I rode to one of these guys if they asked me.....

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Posted by: blackballed

I'm no more innocent than anybody else as far as the "old days" go....yet these snowmobilers just plain had to go the "zero tolerance" route with their very expensive PR campaign to try make any kind of dent at all in it.
Drunk on an orv is no different than in a car in MI....you're going to jail with the exact same penalties (.08 being the newly reduced limit).

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Posted by: blackballed

When I go to a Windrock atv event...and I witness two children blast pass the event coordinators and everyone else assembled at the trailhead... doubled up on a mini-atv with no helmets on, BY THEMSELVES AND HEADED UP THE MOUNTAINSIDE..."I" (and I'll say it again) have two thoughts as to the character of all those assembled who just watched those two precious children drive by.

One....they are either to stupid to come out of the rain....or...

"Two"....THEY JUST DON'T CARE ....or....

"Three"...a sad combination of the two. BR>
And I will say the exact same thing in regards to these atv clubs who have suddenly "found Jesus" concerning "youth" atv training.....yet instantly pull these kids aside right after the training session... whispering in their ear about how they can throw that darn 'ol nasty helmet thing away.... when they turn "18" and "grow up".(then you can "be a man like Daddy is".....).

Now if you don't like my 'take' on any of this, fine...yet I will still fight to not have your picture on an atv (or that youth inspiring signature below your posts for that matter) be the "poster child" for every darn anti-atv group in this country who wants to hold up your way of life as "the norm" in this atving community.

"My" problem being....that I don't have enough fellow riders out there with enough kahunas to strap a set on and do the same....and you know it. BR>
As I've said before, I've ridden with a guy who rides helmetless for years and we've never had a problem over the issue. Yet he realizes that he has every right to try and change the law here in Michigan; just as I have every right to bring attention to an issue that has put a huge roadblock (which does NOT need to be there) in the progress of our community (funny how these old-time cyclists and snowmobilers got past this issue DECADES ago!).

We just plain don't talk about it in person and I extend the same courtesy to anybody I visit outstate.

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Posted by: blackballed

I guess I'll always have a problem with any man's "right to choose" while he is recreating outside the workplace.....for the simple reason that 99.9% of most riders will "choose" not to carry the kind of extremely expensive catastrophic insurance that keeps their "unavoidable injury" off of MY insurance premium.

In other words, most people would just as soon let ME pay for not taking the exact same precuations a guy would have to take at work....as well as any financial bankruptcy HE causes to HIS family as a result of HIS negligence ***RECREATING*** (one of the reasons our insurance bills are through the roof).

We're not talking about slipping on the front step on the way out to get the paper here....we're talking about teaching kids one thing....then turning around and telling them that when they turn 18?....by god, the United States of America will cover any injury you have WITHOUT that brain bucket and you darn well have the right to sue anybody you can get your hands on to make darn sure of it!!! (and it won't cost you an extra DIME the minute YOU DECIDE to quit wearing it!).

These are the things these people don't like (and flat out refuse) to talk about. And why?

Because these truths put them in the same exact category as every other free-loading s.o.b. in this country who has demanded that their actions and their lifestyle be the direct financial responsibility of everybody but themselves!!! (and darn if they'll do even one simple thing to reduce those risks for the sake of the rest of us paying for their family's "unexpected" bankruptcy).

Why do anything you don't 'want to'....if you know this country will prop you up against the wall with a feeding tube/drool running down the side of your mouth...while the rest of that family you swore to protect and provide for is "covered" by me? I'd mention the virtue of doing everything you possibly can in order to make certain that you are at the very least 'there for' the family you created....yet that concept went south with the "I'm not happy" ("it's for the good of the kids") generation who put the broken family rate in this country @ 50% or better.

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Posted by: blackballed

Again, just ask the average helmetless rider how much he expects to pay "extra" for ignoring all the studies on helmet use and injuries in ANY sport....and the answer he/she gives you is a direct reflection as to just who you are dealing with when it comes to this issue (sorry people, but I've lived right down the road from Detroit all my life...and there is no greater example of this type behavior than what I read in the paper each and every day).

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Posted by: blackballed

...."blunt" seems to be the only method (I've found) which causes those without a leg to stand on to finally shut up. Not that you don't always appreciate the debate and their opinion in it....yet when does their argument finally get recognized as being detrimental to the sport itself and how much MORE time do you waste on it?

I wish they'd finally come out with something comparable to the Rhino in pure comfort and fun because we have never had a better time on 4 wheels. The older atv will always be relegated to back-up duty at best and I can never see myself riding one for fun again unless forced to. We see more on the trail, we're more relaxed, the power and fun factor is there when you need it....I could go on and on.

I like the Kubota, I like the Ranger XP....yet just sit in the Rhino once and see if you can tell any difference (I could care less about power or speed...comfort, suspension and handling are everything in my book).

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
"...I don't hear of that many accidents in CA that are fatal, but they happen. Usually hear about them at Pismo. Either drunk, razor back or they go driving east and fall off a dune face. Maybe I'll just have to research it some...."

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Our dunes http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_15070-34760--,00.html probably average one or two killed each short season (along with untold injured) while being a fraction of the size of most others nationwide (which is probably a factor in and of itself).

Helmets (as you related above) are a 21st century 'given'....common sense conception as to the 'one-way' make-up of the park itself....is evidently not.

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: jaggers2e42
"..and i don't recal ever saying that kids shold not half to wear helmets hell i never said they are a bad idea i said it should be a choice if i want to wear one..."

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I guess you kind of took the bait here, jagger....as the question we can't get your fellow atvers to ask you is this....how do you keep from implying that your son isn't "a real man" like helmetless Dad; if he doesn't ditch that helmet when he's "legally" (this is the law I assume you propose) of age to do so?

Pardon the lack of compassion here, yet it's not exactly your life I really give a rip about (if you're using your signature to promote drinking and riding to the kids who frequent this site...you are beyond help)....it's the kids who look up to you and the ones who witness you exhibit this kind of behavior day in and day out that are actually the keepers of the flame here.

You can't save everybody....yet you can sure as heck put laws in place which put at least 'some' doubt in the minds of those kids being taught otherwise.

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Posted by: blackballed

Here's a scenario for you:

"The kid" in your local atv club finally turns whatever age the radical right atvers in your state convince the legislature to put the "age of consent" at...and starts riding helmetless like the "live free or die" mentors in his club. Said kid smucks a tree, gets thrown off and cracks his head on a rock or any of a hundred of other ways to kill yourself on a quad without the proper head protection.

HOW IN THE HECK DO YOU PEOPLE LIVE WITH YOURSELVES AFTER SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENS?

Do you drag out the tired old "helmet wouldn't have made a difference" story?

Do you just not ever look his parents in the eye again?

Do you take the next kid aside who is about to come of age/make that decison and beg of him...."don't keep the helmet on or everybody will remember that we didn't bother to model proper behavior for your dead little friend......"?

What kind of legacy exactly is it that you are trying to build there?

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Posted by: blackballed

Well said....I wouldn't have any problem with natural selection and thinning out the gene pool....."if"...it (#1) was only 'full grown adults' that were injured/dying as a result; (#2) those riders permenantly maimed were all independantly wealthy millionaires more than willing to drain their family's savings when they end up in a wheelchair...and (#3) every helmetless death was swept under the carpet like that man or woman never walked the face of this earth (for the benefit of those understanding the physics of your post above).

Unfortunately, as we all know, these riders are affecting our abiltiy to build any kind of meaningful legacy.....and our grandchildren's chance to experience it. (yet 'gosh', don't tell these people that to their face...how will we ever build another place like 'Windrock' if we do?).

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...If you won't wear one for yourself, all we ask is that you think about the impressions being made on kids around you.... After all.. we don't want them to wear one because it is "the law"... we want them to wear one because it is safer with than without one....."

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Amen, my friend.....I guess what my problem has always been with others arguing this issue is that I DEMAND these helmetless riders answer that first question....not just 'ask' it of them. (which is exactly what helmet legislation has done in states which have adopted it...because every one of these people... couldn't answer it without bowing their head in SHAME).

I've said it before and will say it again....if pure, analdulterated SHAME can't bring a man to his senses...the government has absolutely no choice but to draw up a conscience for both him AND the next generation to follow.

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Posted by: blackballed

Just got off the phone with a national off-road group president who brought up the point that in states with no helmet laws; most riders believe everywhere they go in that state must be the same (with no exceptions for organized riding areas). Throw this in with the fact that some "pro-choice" groups will dole out a knee jerk reaction to the issue itself no matter where it is debated (on or off road).....and we have some serious educating to do as a group for the hearts and minds of those with an already formidable PAC who may not have ever considered the differences between street and trail (I don't see any; yet why fight any more people than you might not have to?).

And again, the dirty little secret here (that nobody wants to talk about) is the fact that our largest lobby group right now doesn't have not only the guts to unify the sport (motorcycles and atvs under one organizational roof)......but stand up on an issue they've fought on the other side of many times before.

There is a lot more division among our ranks than people realize and nobody can tell me that this hasn't been a HUGE factor in the amount of work we've been able to accomplish over what is turning out to be a significant amount of time.

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt".. if they can't do it on their own, the government will assist them in ways that nobody wants.."

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Agreeing 100% with the rest of your post....yet I wonder if it isn't time to start "assisting them" WITHIN the community (pushing legislation that is at least 'reasonable') instead of holding back because these national organizations don't have the guts (or character) to make a stand on what matters (which isn't superdome/cross country races or avoiding pissing off anyone so that they still send in their membership money and keep another non-profit worker perpetually employed).

Again, what is wrong with folks within our community simply standing up for issues like heavy fines and true enforcement? You make that penalty severe enough and not only does that money go back to the resource itself....it encourages law enforcement to see it as a revenue source (good investment) that is actually worth pursuing with extra resources of their own (and God help us if this strategy actually gets the majority of these nimrods off the trail or teaches our youth that there actually IS a consequence for their actions).

It always amazes me that nobody wants to talk about the best thing any riding area has ever come up with and with which they have had just HUGE success.

The H/M Authority figured out a long time ago that there is one thing that local and out-of-town riders respect like nothing else....a sworn officer of the law on duty with the authority to enforce it!!!. Was that kind of forward thinking really all that hard to figure out???

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Posted by: blackballed

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...Agreed... and there are a couple of things we as an industry can do... 1) we need to be engaged in the legislative process. Just providing a voice of reason, and to make sure that facts are accurate and presented without bias....."

If we could take care of the divisions within our own community (motorcyclists trying to split us all in half and cowboy orv leadership who equate simple trail issues with gaining control over the free world as we know it)...I think we'd have a chance. As it is now, here in Michigan? (a state with more trials than most states combined will ever have)....we need to start calling some of these guys out for just who they are and just exactly what they are doing to our sport. If you don't encourage people to participate in the process.....what chance will there ever be that any of this younger generation will ever gives a darn about it?

"....2) we as enthusiasts need to get behind the law enforcement community, understand why they are there, and support their efforts to enforce the rules. They are often caught in the middle on this, and cooperation with them makes more sense than treating them like the enemy..."

Just a great synopisis of what needs to happen, DB. I have been kicked off of more sites than I can count for simply telling some snot-nosed kid that his forum recount of running from the law or his derogatory reference to the officers of it; was not only inappropriate...but setting a bad example for others his age. The bigger problem we have is that there are plenty of quote/unquote "adults" out there who won't base the attraction of new members to their club with this partnership in mind and out at the forefront. Membership in many of these organizations is based more on a willingness/ability to pay (and retain that revenue) rather than focusing on a few quality members who believe similiarly and 9 times out of 10 do all the work anyways.

".....Which comes downWhen you think about it, all the laws are wrapped around two issues. One, the state wants to make sure you are paying your fair share and supporting the programs that they have in place to make all this possible...."

Which they should! (I'm witnessing a club in KY right now who is encouraging their membership to embrace the term "free" and scoff at places like the "pay to play" H/M system).

"....and secondly, all they ask is that you act responsibly. Those two items constitute the bulk of "Enforcement". Responsive persons register their machines, purchase the temp licenses, wear the required gear, are courteous to others on the trail, ride in a safe and sane manner, cross roads IAW local laws,... in short, are good citizens...."

Well said.BR>
"...Unfortunately, there are enough of the bad elements out there that think rules desigend for the betterment of the whole do not apply to them.... They would rather play games, damage private property, and make a general nuicience of themselves.I fully support the active presence of law enforcement. That does not say I want to get into a argument about the manner in which the enforcement is carried out, but I do support the fact that they are out there protecting the majority.... Let's face it.. if you are in compliance, what do you have to worry about in the first place?....."

I don't want to get into an argument over over-zealous officers either; as anybody with half a brain knows that they are out there (it's a fact of life anywhere you go). Then again, how many of those same officers have ever given a hard time to those who actually support what they are doing? If you join a club who make no bones about supporting enfocement in your favorite riding area and you then display that club sticker with pride when stopped by the law....do you want to feed me some story about how that local LEO has been all over you for NOTHING?

Great post, DB; I'm sure I'll reference it later to quickly get a point across more efficiently than I often do.

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Posted by: blackballed

By the way, DB; I just love lines that shut people's mouths and end stupid debates (another past-time the snowmobilers ended quite some time ago when they progressed to their multi-thousand dollar anti-drinking campaigns....see how the older generation operates?):

From your post above:

"...Let's face it.. if you are in compliance, what do you have to worry about in the first place?....."

Hm? BR>

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

They will learn when all of us who consider ourselves to be responsible riders take the time to make the necessessary corrections to these riders whe we observe them riding without a helmet or other safety gear. All of us, if we have been riding for a while, have a spare helmet laying around somewhere. Pull it out, throw it in the trunk next time you go out riding, and hand it to them. You don't need to be nasty, or question their sanity... just tell them that you want to make sure they get home tonight in one piece...

How many of us turn away shaking our heads and wonder if only I had.....

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Just about everyone on this forum can cite a tragic story, sometimes a friend, or a family member.. or we read it somewhere... and it is easy to point to someone else and say it is their fault for x or y or z.. but the real answer is it starts with you an me... I realize that sounds harsh, but it is the reality of the situation... If we don't say something, who will. Next time may be too late.

I'm truly sorry for the loss of your loved one. Words, and time never heal the wound completely... You cry your guts out for them, you tear yourself apart trying to change something that can't be changed... in the end, you are left with an empty spot that can never be filled. I've read too many of these stories. I've seen too many friends and family lost to lapses in judgement... that is why I am so adamant about gear, and a kid's ability to make proper decisions under emergency conditions before being let out on the trails...

The bottom line is there are many things that still need to be done...

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

I agree there is a social stigma associated with wearing a helmet, and in certain parts of the country, you would be hard pressed to find anyone wearing shoes, let alone a helmet. But there is one event that brings us all together under one roof... Right before they close that casket on a friend or relative... we are all feeling the same pain... It is too late for them... but look around the room... I bet there are some standing there that you can still save.

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

It is impossible to tell if anyone would have lived wearing a helmet... but statistically speaking, wearing safety gear can significantly increase your chances. Each piece of gear will add to that margin too... the real danger is to get all the gear and then feel you are indestructable. That part of human physiology doesn't change with gear. A helmet might safe the brain bucket, but cause you to break your neck... cause and effect...

I agree with the comment about making a bad choice. Speed is as much a part of snowmobiling as it is in ATV riding. I can't say for sure why this happened, and I don't know the actual mechanics of the crash, I do wonder if it was on a straight line or a blind corner though. Whether lights were being used on both machines etc. The subject of lights being used in daytime is a good subject for debate. One thing that many forget is that lights serve two purposes. One to see with, the other is to be seen. We sometimes forget the second part.

Also, if they met on a blind corner, common sense would have told most of us to slow down as you go around it... but the adrenaline rush is telling us to do a mondo broadslide around it.

Then there is the subject of stopping on the snow... Neither machine type is going to stop on a dime. I haven't been on a snowmobile for nearly 30 years now, and I suspect they stop a lot better than they used to, but still, the laws of physics given the properties of snow and ice, and the act of stopping is going to be marginal at best for either machine. Ditto for quick reaction steering.

Any way, we need to put safety first in our training...and responsible riding... hammer it over and over... Just like the smart people say, there are consequences to everything we do. Sometimes they are not so nice....

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Deep laker, I suspect it might be because the snowmobile is lower to the ground, and has a lot more mass in front of the rider than an ATV. Plus a windshield of some type. Chances are the ATV rider was unable to stay with his machine on impact. We tend to go over the bars when the quad comes to a sudden stop like that. Not sure if snowmobile would outweigh his quad.. but there is a chance that played a part as well.

Glad to hear you are going to wear a helmet now.... Smart move.

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

I think I know where you are going with this... not sure if increased fines, and new laws requiring safety gear is the right answer, but we can sure build a case that it would make a difference. The problem is that even though you put stickers on the machines telling you to wear them, they are ignored. The other issue is that laws of this nature are handled at the state level, so getting all 50 states to act as one is pretty hard, considering the motorcycle industry fights that have resulted in mixed results.

I still think that increased focus on mandatory training and information availability are viable options. And forcing teh gray market manufacturers to get on board with safety training and following the same CPSC guidelines as the major brands.

Not sure I'd use that bicycle analogy though. Compaired to the numbers of bike accidents and deaths per year etc... ATV statistics are only scratching the surface in comparison.

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

I can remember a time when all we did was ride from one bar to the next.... we made a full circle and ended up back at the car.... sometimes, guys would make 2 or 3 laps...... Many are not with us any longer sad to say too...

I agree, that consitant laws, and consistant enforcement is needed. It shouldn't matter if I have crossed an imaginary border somewhere past the third pine on the right...

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Jaggers, it is that kind of attitude that will force the government to do away with ATV's altogether. They did it with 3 wheelers, what makes you think they won't do it again? I certainly hope you never have to bury a child or a relative of yours because of your example and feelings on the matter.

The pont is, kids are very impressionable... and you might be signing their death sentence. Personally, I am not sure I could live with that...

This has nothing to do with freedom of choice, or personal preference. Nobody is criticising your decision... but for kids under 18... helmets should be worn... I'll fight till I drop to maintain your right to ride and choose... but I can't get behind no helmets for kids.

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

I hear ya man.. just trying to be nice... Say how do you like that Rhino? I see you on the other list once in a while..... thinking about getting one myself, but I really like the utility of the RTV900 too. (That's a Kubota to those wondering)

I will say this however... if a kid is playing tackle football, he can't get on the field without a helmet, and the proper pads. In play, two players may meet in a collision at what, maybe a total of around 6 to 8 miles an hour.. and one kid of maybe 150 pounds may fall on top of the other no problems, they get up and go at it again....

NOW Consider an ATV enthusiast travelling at only 25 to 30 miles an hour hitting a tree. No pads, no helmet... and tell me that is a wise decision.... The blood spatter pattern may be interesting to some, but I can't admit wanting to look at it or wanting to think about the carnage. I guess for the real freedom thinkers out there, the question is do you wonder if they actually feel pain at that moment?

Sorry for being blunt... some people just can't understand anything but blunt....

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

It is no wonder kids these days have no respect for anything and make some pretty incredibly poor decisions... Now before you think I am kid bashing.. I admit there are some out there, thankfully the majority of them, that do act responsibly.. but man, the small percentage of the ones acting out sure have taken stupid to a new level..

Parental responsibility is severely lacking too, especially when impressionable youths are involved, you just keep repeating the cycle. A sure sign of not being comfortablein one's skin I guess. I keep hearing that famous line from Forrest Gump in my mind.. "Stupid is as stupid does.", I didn't understand that before... but it sure is becoming clearer.

Kids are looking for good examples to emulate. They need standards to be set, limits to be established, and consequences for their actions. If you don't teach them that when they are young, they will never learn it when they are older and develop their "mind your own business" mentality. Well friend, helping protect kids is my business... and if persons like you cannot do that, the decision will be taken out of your hands... We don't want that to happen... but when lawmakers get involved... it affects everyone...

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

So you use the "do as I say, not as I do" method of instruction then... yeah, that is going to work real good. It sure worked with my kids... NOT!

What you are saying is that your child has to act responsible... but it is OK that you are not because you are an adult, and we all know that adults are not responsible right? Hmmm... now that is enlightening... Somewhere everything I have tried to teach my children has been turned upside down.... maybe I can have more fun acting like a teenager then.... My wife complains that I never grew up... maybe she is right... that would explain a lot...

Thanks for at least considering making him wear one until he reaches that magic "age".

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Alright alright...let's stop bashing Jaggers...He is entiteld to his opinion and choice. Many of us do not agree with that, and hope that he would re-consider because we feel his example is detrimental to the sport as a whole.. but he is a big boy and has made his choice...

I wish you luck bud.. eventually you are going to need it. We all do at one point or another. If you won't wear one for yourself, all we ask is that you think about the impressions being made on kids around you.... After all.. we don't want them to wear one because it is the law... we want them to wear one because it is safer with than without one. We want them to enjoy their hobby for a long time... and wearing safety gear to include helmets are helping that happen...

Hope to see you on the trails my friend, so I can offer you one of my spares I carry just for the occasion...

Be safe

Dragginbutt

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Out of the mouths of babes..... It illustrates that we are getting the message through.... and that even what we consider the most harmless act is noticed by children.. and they form many opinions at a young age that they have to live with for the rest of their lives....

The next generation is going to be plagued with problems we could not even imagine when we were kids.... Glad to see your daughter has taken control of her surroundings and is willing to take a stand... I sure hope you gave her a big hug, and reward that girl for showing you the light.

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Yeah ... the laws around the country are all different... it doesn't mean they make sense or not. I don't thin we will debate the street bike issue here. As far as ATV's go though, where you are talking a much higher incidence of injury, it just makes sense to wear one. If your law allows it I guess I have to accept it.. it does not however mean I necessarily agree with it. All kids riding an ATV should have one period. We owe it to them to make sure they live to adult hood.

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

I hear ya loud and clear Blackballed... however I think we are starting to see some changes in attitudes... and some encouraging actions on teh part of several professional groups.... For example, almost accross the board, the major ATV magazines that print pictures of readers riding their machines have taken teh stance that they refuse to print a picture of someone riding without a helmet. Several of them will not print a picture of illegal two up riding either... (Machine not designed for it, or dad riding with a small child in front of him etc... these are good signals.

We will always have some that will resist until the day they die.... without a helmet, that will probably come sooner then later.. but it was their choice. What isn't their choice is when they affect the attitudes of young riders giving them teh impression that it is OK to ride without a helmet... That is where a lot of us draw the line... Like you said.. if they can't do it on their own, the government will assist them in ways that nobody wants...

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Posted by: Dragginbutt

Agreed... and there are a couple of things we as an industry can do... 1) we need to be engaged in the legislative process. Just providing a voice of reason, and to make sure that facts are accurate and presented without bias. 2) we as enthusiasts need to get behind the law enforcement community, understand why they are there, and support their efforts to enforce the rules. They are often caught in the middle on this, and cooperation with them makes more sense than treating them like the enemy.

When you think about it, all the laws are wrapped around two issues. One, the state wants to make sure you are paying your fair share and supporting the programs that they have in place to make all this possible. and secondly, all they ask is that you act responsibly. Those two items constitute the bulk of "Enforcement".

Responsive persons register their machines, purchase the temp licenses, wear the required gear, are courteous to others on the trail, ride in a safe and sane manner, cross roads IAW local laws,... in short, are good citizens. Unfortunately, there are enough of the bad elements out there that think rules desigend for the betterment of the whole do not apply to them.... They would rather play games, damage private property, and make a general nuicience of themselves.

I fully support the active presence of law enforcement. That does not say I want to get into a argument about the manner in which the enforcement is carried out, but I do support the fact that they are out there protecting the majority....

Let's face it.. if you are in compliance, what do you have to worry about in the first place?

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Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior

I kind of laugh to myself when I see the helmet issue come up. It's a "no brainer" for me in CA. Brain buckets are required (VC 38505). Do I see it, yup. Usually out at Pismo. Some people have this weird belief that normal laws don't apply on sand. CA is the same as 100% of the VC applies to OHVs as well. DUI, Open Container, Speeding (though the VC has some specific speed limits in the OHV section).

Why people don't wear helmets? No clue. They have this belief about Freedom or something. But when they end up critically injured, we ALL pay in one way or another. "But I have insurance!" Yeah, and so do the rest of us. We are all spreading costs amongst us. Heard someone say this about insurance, and they are right, "Insurance is like playing the lottery. Except when you win, it is because you lost."

I don't hear of that many accidents in CA that are fatal, but they happen. Usually hear about them at Pismo. Either drunk, razor back or they go driving east and fall off a dune face. Maybe I'll just have to research it some.

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Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior

Pismo seems to be about the same. I know that 2003 saw 3 deaths in the high season (May-Sep). One was a new to Pismo guy on an MC who they assumed went off a face. Found him in the AM. It's posted around here somewhere. 2nd was a lady who crashed and hit her head on her daughters (crashed) quad (razorback). Third was a DUI. Under-18 y/o hit a 10 y/o pedestrian in the camp area.

Califronia also has the largest OHV program in the US. And I know there are deaths other places. I was at Hungry Valley (Gorman, at the top of the infamous Grapevine) Memorial Weekend '03 and the medivac chopper was there several times.

It was interesting to see that MI has banned any two-up riding, even on MCs. CA allows two-up on ATV designed and certified by the manuf. for 2 people. MCs also require pegs for the passenger (I thik this ISN'T) enforced as I've only once seen a dirtbike (street tagged and ridden by a couple in their 60s...if not older) with pegs for the passenger.

It would really be interesting to see injury & death numbers from around the country and compare that to the number of visitors. Pismo gets about 1 million visitors per year. They sell out camping (1000 spots) nearly every weekend from Memorial weekend through Labor Day weekend. A lot of people escape the 100 degree central valley heat for the 70 degree temps of the coast.

The stats that I did find from the CPSC show a lower rate and lower total number of deaths each year as the sport has grown.

Is the sport dangerous, yes, to some extent. Accidents (something that is unavoidable) happen (rare). Most incidents are preventable. Usually someone screws up, somewhere. We just have to take measures to reduce the impact (pun not intended).

My helmet has saved me at least twice (when *I* screwed up) while riding (wheelied and fell of the back and did a barrel roll when I hit a rut going around a corner WAY too fast) and several times from cutting my head open (in the forest walking around moving stuff off the trail I've smacked my head on an overhanging branch) SEVERAL times. I've crashed 3 times and twice I needed my helmet.

I've even read a thread (over on a Glamis site) where some of the sand rail guys are starting to wear helmets and even arm restraints to keep the outboard arm (left on the driver, right on the passenger) inside the rail in the even of a roll over.

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Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior

The problem is the effect that poor decisions have on society as a whole. Traumatic head injuries are very expensive in both a monitary stand point, and an emotional standpoint. "Oh but I have insurance"someone will say. Well, guess what, you just raised EVERYONEs insurance. Insurance is a pooling of money to spread risk around. Maybe someone goes 5 years of paying insurance and never using it (with the exception of say your normal yearly physical, a cold here or there that requires a Rx.) Then you have a major injury. Yes, that's what it was there for. But if the injury could have been prevented, the insurance for everyone would be that much less.

This issue is about prevention, or lessening these traumatic injuries. When someone becomes incapacitated, they become a big drain. Hospital care (furing the initial treatment) is VERY expensive. Then the after care is a continual expense. Not just a one time expense.

The emotional/psychological impact of these injuries is HUGE. Think about days, weeks or even months of hospitalization. Spouses, Significan others take off work to be at someone bedside and that puts stress on them (physical, emotionanal and again monetarily). People worry.

I realise this issue is much like debates I have with people who chose to operate their vehicles unsafely loaded. They just don't care. The ones who do, upsize their truck to the appropriate sized truck. The fight with them is useless. So you go on to the next person, much like you would try to educate them, that wearing helmts IS cool.

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Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior

Quote

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Originally posted by: Markymannn
I was on a riding area web-site last year reading their FAQ section. The last Q was "I'm an experienced rider, do I need to have a helmet?" A: "If you're an experienced rider, that's a pretty stupid question". AMEN!!!

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BEAUTIFUL! I love that.

On new helmet graphics, I have to second that. I just bought an '05 Fox Tracer in matte silver. It's not as beautiful if it had actually been airbrushed, but it looks sweet. And it fits SOOOO much better than my old cheap THH that I had. Going to "break it in" this Sunday. Hopefully I never need it, but I'm sure I will. Mine saved me from more bumps from tree limbs than I care to remember.

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Posted by: waynerod

And tell them to 'strap' their helmets too dammit!

My brother and his best firend was killed a while back on a honda 50 (They were 16).

One had a helmet - but it wasn't strapped. No helmet on the other.

He hit a truck - helmet flew off. Kids both died immediately.

Don't know if it would have saved his life - and we never will.

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Posted by: waynerod

I always ride w/ my light on..

Makes it that much easier to remember to turn it on when it starts to get late.

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Posted by: deanz400

heres an example a person with out a helmet could die from a fall off a 6foot ladder
with a helmet if i remember right it would take a 20 plus foot fall to kill you

PLUS the only organ in the human body not able to repair it self is the human brain , injure it and thats all they wrote your done !!!
so cruiseing around the yard in first gear on a wheeler is fast enough to wipe out the old brain ,, if you don't have a helmet on ..
yes everybody wishes common sense would prevail , and there is some thing to be said about darwin selection and the gene pool ..

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Posted by: deanz400

you know stupid people should have to wear a sing that says there stupid , so when they do some thing stupid you can just ride over them ,and use them as a jump ,,,,haha just joking ..

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Posted by: KINGSCLEAR

That's to bad , we don't have a lot of ATV accidents here but we have a couple of people die everyweekend on snowmobiles.

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Posted by: KINGSCLEAR

Snowmobiling here is over regulated, it has become a rich mans sport. Atving is still just a passtime here where is sledding has become big business. We are worried that the atving is headed that way, Bigger and faster sleds and trails that are like highways

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Posted by: KINGSCLEAR

Our biggest problem here is booze and speed. Hands down drinking is the main reason for snowmobiling deaths combined with speed of course. 4 out of five up here are drinking related

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Posted by: KINGSCLEAR

I'm an old school guy to a certain extent. I've been riding dirt bikes ,atv or snowmobiles on the trails up here for 34 years. And I admit to having a beer while I'm driving and I know probaly not wise. But I'll go on an 8 hour trip and take a 6 pack or less. like to hae a couple with lunch and maybe one after riding for a couple of hours.The younger guys up here are drinking their asses off and away they go. Policeing it is almost impossible with the amount of wilderness.

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Posted by: KINGSCLEAR

I hear you loud and clear on the old bones thing man loud and clear

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Posted by: weez440

cousin was killed right inside the polaris industry plant he was an electritian there. driving an atv hit a bad bump got throwen over the handlebars and atv landed on his head and killed him. now it is mandatory that anyone driving an atv of polaris's in the plant or outside must wear a helmit or suffer immediate termination. i just wish that it went into effect before he was killed he was a great man and i feel privaleged to have knowen him.

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Posted by: Deeplaker60

Here is why I think it's a bad idea to ride ATV's on snowmobile trails. I would guess that what likely happened here is that the victim was hugging the middle of the trail to avoid deep snow along the edge of the trail. This is from the St. Paul (MN) Pioneer Press, 3/1/05.

John Scott, 47, of Westboro, died Saturday afternoon when the ATV he was driving collided with a snowmobile at the crest of a hill on a trail about 20 miles north of Medford, Taylor County Sheriff Jack Kay said. The 47-year-old driver of the snowmobile, also from Westboro, was injured, the sheriff said.

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Posted by: Deeplaker60

I&39;ll have to admit I haven&39;t been wearing a helmut when I ride my ATV, but that&39;s going to change. I&39;ll bet the snowmobiler who survived this collision was wearing one—I have never seen anyone riding a snowmobile who didn&39;t have a helmut. But, I think another problem with this accident was being on a snowmobile trail with an ATV. You have to stay in middle of the trail where the snow is packed. Otherwise, you get stuck a lot if the snow is deep along the edges of the trail, and that&39;s no fun. Then, if you come to the crest of a hill and a snowmobile is coming at you at 50 mph, it&39;s lights out for both of you. Also, those new 4-stoke sleds are much quieter than the older 2-strokers, which you can often hear coming. If you are going to ride an ATV on a snowmobile trail, it is probably safer to go at night when you can see headlights over the crest of a hill.

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Posted by: Deeplaker60

Helmuts aren't the issue here. We don't know from the article who was or wasn't wearing a helmut. The article didn't say. It did say the snowmobile and ATV met at the crest of a hill. The message to ATV'ers is that if you ride on snowmobile trails, hug the right side on hillcrests and blind corners, even at the risk of getting stuck. Better yet, stay off the snowmobile trails, especially on weekends.

The article about the ATV'er's death also said: "A deadly weekend on Wisconsin's snowmobile trails pushed the number of fatalities to 26 so far this winter." It didn't say how many of those killed were snowmobilers and how many were ATV'ers, but we know that at least one was riding an ATV. This shows that snowmobile trails can be dangerous places, although many of the snowmobile deaths happen on lakes where they go through thin ice or hit ice ridges at 90 mph.

Here's another bicycle analogy--when I'm riding my ATV on a snowmobile trail, I feel like I'm peddaling a bicycle down a freeway.

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Posted by: Deeplaker60

I&39;ll have to admit to some ambivalence about this helmet thing. I haven&39;t been wearing one when I ride my ATV, because I frankly haven&39;t felt a need for it. I ride slow and careful, seldom going faster than 30 mph and then only on straight stretches of road. I&39;ve never had a close call. But, I don&39;t ride it on snowmobile trails either.

On the other hand, I never go without a helmet when riding my snowmobile. With that machine, I go as fast as 70 mph on straight stretches of road and on lakes. There is a crack in my snowmobile helmet that tells me I wouldn&39;t be here today if I had not been wearing it.

I think I will start wearing my helmet when riding my ATV, at least on public trails. There, I can&39;t control how the other guy rides, who might crash into me. A defensive measure, such as wearing a helmet, seems prudent. But, helmet or not, I definitely will stay off the snowmobile trails.

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Posted by: Deeplaker60

It's been snowing for several hours here in NW Wisconsin, and I'm going to fire up my snowmobile for what will probably be a last ride of the season. I will be wearing my helmut...and watching out for ATVers.

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Posted by: Markymannn

I must ride in some really crappy areas. I can't imagine riding without a helmet and googles. All the mud, water, and gravel thrown up at my head. Not to mention the low hanging branches that I've hit with my helmet. I wouldn't think of riding without it. Actually, where I live, I've only seen a handful of people without them. Also, with the graphics & styling on helmets, they've gone to being the cool thing to wear.

I was on a riding area web-site last year reading their FAQ section. The last Q was "I'm an experienced rider, do I need to have a helmet?" A: "If you're an experienced rider, that's a pretty stupid question". AMEN!!!

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Posted by: CamoKodiak450

I read somewhere maybe here about an accident just like this one.It took the life of a 17 year old. He was also riding his atv on a snowmobile trail and was hit and killed. We had 2 seperate ATV accident here in Missouri last Tuesday both Fatal. No helmet on either one. When will everyone learn?

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Posted by: CamoKodiak450

I ride with a few friends and their kids. I had to pitch a fit to get them to buy their kids a helment. These guys have plenty of money and it just piss me off that I have to preach to them. I finaly got there attintion when I informed them about the record ATV Deaths that were set last year.621 if I remember right and 1 0ut of 3 were kids. I cant buy enough saftey gear for my daughter, I just glad she thinks it's cool to wear it.

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Posted by: CamoKodiak450

Everybody thinks it cant happen to them. I wish they could read a post like yours, maybe it might save a life.

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Posted by: CamoKodiak450

I am so happy with the way my 10 year old thinks. She wears the boots. gloves chest protector, Helmet and say's it looks COOL! I pulled her atv out of the garage the other day to wash it and had no helmet on and she came out of the house and was fired up. She informed me that I was grounded from riding for 2 days and she meant it. She watches Discovery health channel and see all kinds of head injury's. I cant stand to watch it ,kinda make sme sick to my stomach.

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

Quote

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Originally posted by: blackballed

Quote

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
They will learn when...

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They will <STRONG>learn</STRONG> when the <EM>leaders</EM> of these national organizations, clubs and riding areas...<STRONG>quit</STRONG> coddling these "live free or die" riders who pay their bills and keep the lights on with their dues. Again, this community has absolutely <STRONG>no</STRONG> sense of who they are on the common sense safety issues of our time and there is absolutely <STRONG>no one</STRONG> willing to stand up to places like Windrock and straighten them out.

Tell me how you can teach your kid to <STRONG>respect</STRONG> the common sense things you try to teach them <EM>everyday</EM> on an atv...then take them to Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, etc. and participate in some entire festival glorifying these idiots who either just don't care or who are barely smart enough to come in out of the rain?
what the hell does that mean...oh yeah that right kentucky is full of dumb hillbillys.yeah that it..oh no it's starting to rain guess i'll just half to get wet..yeah i'm from kentucky

The only way we will even "start" getting this isuue under control is with STIFF FINES and/or good 'ol fashioned SHAME on the part of those willing to do what dragginbut suggests. Helmetless riders usually won't "see Jesus" until "A"... someone gets hurt/killed close to them and they somehow see <EM>through</EM> all their friends trying to say a helmet wouldn't have made a difference....and/or "B" the rest of his riding buddies in no uncertain terms let him know that he's no Marlon Brando or Peter Fonda...rather a guy who doesn't give <EM>a rip</EM> about risking bankruptcy for his family and/or leaving his kids fatherless or throwing a ball with Mom's new lover (while he's propped up against the wall with a sippee cup hanging out of his mouth).

On second thought....<STRONG>shame</STRONG> just might be more effective. hr>

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

whats the big deal sure a helmet could save your life or a seat belt could save your life but it should be up to the rider if he wants a helmet or not. every time you get on a quad could be the last if you get stupid.sure i'm all for a helmet if you want to wear one but if you don't then leave us alone.and yes i do prefer to ride with my shoes on because those footpegs are hell on jumps

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

Quote

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Originally posted by: blackballed

Quote

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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
<EM>"I think I know where you are going with this... not sure if increased fines, and new laws requiring safety gear is the right answer, but we can sure build a case that it would make a difference. The problem is that even though you put stickers on the machines telling you to wear them, they are ignored..."</EM>.

If they are ignoring the stickers....then it's pretty darn hard to ignore the money flying out of their pocketbooks.

<EM>"....The other issue is that laws of this nature are handled at the state level, so getting all 50 states to act as one is pretty hard, considering the motorcycle industry fights that have resulted in mixed results....."

</EM>I think we are overestimating the problem here. Michigan has laws on the books (which I'm sure mirror <EM>many</EM> other states) which simply demand that you act like you've got the good sense God gave you when operating an atv. The problem is, everybody in this community is <EM>afraid</EM> to go into these places like WV., KY., TN., etc. and start pointing out that it is <EM>their</EM> complacency on these issues that will get OUR rights taken away from us. Why these consumer advocacy groups haven't swept in on these places and tried to paint these doubled up, helmetless riders as examples of the manner in which the <EM>rest</EM> of this country acts and <STRONG>is</STRONG> truly like...is beyond me! (and god help us if they ever figure this out.

<EM>"...still think that increased focus on mandatory training and information availability are viable options....."</EM>

Agreed, I just don't think the word "mandatory" means a darn thing if their isn't a "fine" big enough behind it that truly defines the word.

<EM>"....Not sure I'd use that bicycle analogy though. Compaired to the numbers of bike accidents and deaths per year etc... ATV statistics are only scratching the surface in comparison....."
</EM>
Sorry for the confusion, I was just using the bike analogy to illustrate the fact that if you aren't intelligent enough to figure certain things out for yourself or have me/somebody else "explain" them to you....then maybe "a bicycle" should be the only conveyance you should be allowed to swing your leg over (at least 9 times out of 10 they don't blame 'the bike' for your mishap and you are most always correctly labeled <STRONG>as you should be</STRONG&gt

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i look at it this way keep your butt up there and i'll keep mine in kentucky

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

oh yeah lets throw in the beer now we are just a hill climbing machine...oh yeah can't wait to crash my quad so i can let the rest of the world take care of me..and i don't recal ever saying that kids shold not half to wear helmets hell i never said they are a bad idea i said it should be a choice if i want to wear one.
you don't even half to wear a helmet here on a motor cycle.

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

everbody takes chances.sure they may not be smart ones but i figure it's my life and it should not concern anybody else.when my son gets to age sure i'll buy him a helment and hill wear it till he is old enough to make his own choice.and i see nothing wrong with beer seems a few people could use one to lighten up or at least it would shut there mouth for a moment.i think the only thing that save your life is god and who knows i could wrap my quad around a tree tommrow if he sees fit....guess we will find out

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

Quote

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Originally posted by: blackballed

Quote

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Originally posted by: jaggers2e42
"..and i don't recal ever saying that kids shold not half to wear helmets hell i never said they are a bad idea i said it should be a choice if i want to wear one..."

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I guess you kind of took the bait here, jagger....as the question we can't get your fellow atvers to ask you is this....how do you keep from implying that your son isn't "a real <STRONG>man</STRONG>" like helmetless Dad; if he doesn't ditch that helmet when he's "legally" (this is the law I assume you propose) of age to do so?

Pardon the lack of compassion here, yet it's not exactly <STRONG>your</STRONG> life I really give a rip about (if you're using your signature to promote drinking and riding to the kids who frequent this site...you are beyond help)....it's the kids who look up to you and the ones who witness you exhibit this kind of behavior day in and day out that are actually the keepers of the flame here.

You can't save everybody....yet you can sure as heck put laws in place which put at least 'some' doubt in the minds of those kids being taught otherwise.

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I LOVE YOU TO

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

yeah some folks are to up tight

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

Quote

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Originally posted by: rodman922
i own 5 atv's,wife and 3 girls ages 7 14 16,they all must wear boots helmet chest protector googles,doesnt look cool,but helps protect,they should fine the stupid adults who let their kids ride unprotected,and for the adults who ride unprotected just one word;;;;;;;;natural selection......stupid people shouldnt breed


rodman

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man your a funny guy but then again smart a$$ should keep there mouth shut

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Posted by: jaggers2e42

well ya got to stand for something and not ever body will see eye to eye but i reckon thats whats makes america great.so you guys keep those helmets on and i'll still ride like i always have but happy trails to everyone and no hard fellings, just my point of view

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Posted by: nhmudbear

In NH it is voluntary to wear helmets on motorcycles, Harleys etc. for street use. I think it is different for offroad and snowmobiles. I wear helmet on my atv and snowmobile. We also have speed limits for atvs and snowmobiles and fish and game[ nicknamed fish cops] have radar. Some dirt bikes atvs don't have speedometers so you probaly use tach or guess how fast you are going. The fish and game have more authority than local police for search and seizure.

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