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Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
Damn it is good to see that ordinary people like you and me can make a difference. The system works folks.... now get out there and make it work in your area!
Actaully, if you deducted the number of participants who were there because of Minnesota ATVAM mobilizing members through club and email communications, and deducted the people bussed in from Polaris and Arctic Cat, there wasn't that much of a showing.
If you live in MN you need to be supporting ATVAM. That organization is the key to winning the many battles on the horizon where the enviromentalists are doing everything they can to shut down ATV access to public property.
In other threads we have touched on issues where the DNR was not being fair (or honest) with the public. I understand that two DNR staff members have lost their jobs over the missinformation and otherwise poor job they did on the Beltrami trails program.
My point is that if more of the owners of the 300,000 ATV's registered in the state participated in the trail planning process - there would not be a problem.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: weez440
i heard there was somewhere around 2800 people there and i believe it cause every seat was filled and there was alot of people standing by the lobbey. the people that arctic cat and polaris bussed in were not made to go nobody put a gun to their head they went cause they wanted to....the dnr isn't exactly popular up here to begin with.
Where the strategy for these logical disconnects comes from eludes me. No one said that the ATV manufacturers forced employees to attend. That&39;s something you made up in your own head. This does not surprise me.
The DNR has a difficult role in both protecting the natural resources and environment while providing for appropriate use of those resources for the recreation of the public. This dual role is not something easily balanced and the task to do it successfully must be difficult.
I agree that it is fortunate that the DNR recognized the problems in the plan being presented and is going back to the drawing board. As I have posted before – if mistakes are made – point them out!
Again – the real issue is that not enough people are participating in the public hearings. I believe 30,000 people should have been at that meeting protesting the plan – not 2800.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: weez440
.... there are a few reasons why the dnr got the reaction from the public they did. 1. they went up there and inventoried all the trails and did all this without the public or local politions knowing about it. 2. the miles of trails they want to just shut down is completely unacceptable. 3. the dnr hasn't been and doesn't seem like they plan on spending any of our tax dollars on correcting this just wanna shut down the trails. 4. well today i seen it again a brand new chevy truck with a brand new polaris snowmobile in the back of it the dnr was driving around and we all know where that money came from. i have yet to see them drive anything more then a couple years old. 5. i have seen them do little to nothing to help the wildlife specially in the harsh months you may all remember when grand forks flooded in the spring of 1997. there was so much snow the deer were dying of starvation all over the place just dropping dead and the dnr didn't do anything about it. so that is 5 of actually quite a few reasons the dnr isn't very well liked by me there are a few others but they can redeem themselves right here and now if they work with us.
1) The DNR does not require the approval of the public or the local "politions" to do their mandated jobs.
2) Unacceptable becuase???? Im not saying they are right - but there is a vast range of conditions in that rather swampy area. I can see where large areas are not appropriete but can agree that there is more oppertunity then what the DNR planned called for. Lets be fair and agree that not ALL of the area is right for OHV's.
3) The cost to build bridges and reroute trails can be extraordinary in some cases. Each trail needs to be evaluated. Some may be just to expensive to make right. Others may take only minor adjustment.
4) Yes the DNR gets new equipment - dont be so jealous. It takes away from the what is important in this particular debate.
5) When we interfere with nature - we always end up loosing. Now we have to promote massive deer hunts to cut back the heards of deer that the area cannot support. The over population of deer is what happens when we DONT let nature take its course.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: weez440
30,000 people in this small community would be impossible the size of warroad is roughly 3000 people total this is a very small community.
Weezy - To be accurate - Beltrami Island Forest resides in 3 countys in northern Minnesota with a combined population over 60,500 for those "home" counties alone - according to the 2000 US census report. And I'm willing to bet that the number of ATV's in those three countys are about as popular as 4x4 trucks based on what I see when I'm up there.
To get a regional viewpoint - if you consider the population of only the counties that neighbor the 3 Beltrami forest counties - that number jumps to over 238,700 residents.
Out of 238,700 regional residents - I expected an even higher turn out on a issue that impacts the region as much as this does. Not less than 1.3%.
Having 2800 turn out is good. But imagine even a 5% turn out! That would rock the boys down in St.Paul
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
I beleive the problem comes from the political manuevering.
Start with - ban all OHV's from all public property.
Save the children - ban all children from ATV's
Save Mother Earth - OHV's are destructive to Mother Earth
Save the whales
Save the owls
Save the trees
Personally, I think its a mental health issue. ATV banning is NOT the biggest problem these people have.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Sadly, enviiromental activisim has become a stay at home mans/womens dream job. All you need is a telephone and a yellow pages to call on businesses and ask for financial support to "save the ______" . "we would certainly like to list your company as a contributor to our cause and not have to put you in the category of not __________ friendly".
The MRR (minnesotians for responsibile recreation) started with 3 women who didnt want to work "for the man" and started their own organization to solicit funding. They all live in huge homes, drive SUV's and ship their brats off to day-care. To say they don't do it for the money would be a outright lie. They continue to be one of the more difficult groups to deal with as this fight is their jobs - their income - their pay checks. There is no loosing the battle, there will not be a end to thier taking advantage of companies and individuals whom they blackmail into contributing. There is no compromise. Its all about the money. The money goes into the bank as contributions and comes out of the bank as pay checks. Why would they consider any compromise? This pays way to good.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Northern Minnesota 10 Commandments
You betcha...
1. Der's only one God, ya know.
2. Don't make that fish on your mantle an idol.
3. Cussing ain't Minnesota nice.
4. Go to church even when you're up nort.
5. Honor your folks.
6. Don't kill. Catch and release.
7. There is only one Lena for every Ole. No cheatin'.
8. If it ain't your lutefisk, don't take it.
9. Don't be braggin' about how much snow ya shoveled.
10. Keep your mind off your neighbor's hotdish
Ok - so its a little off topic but what the hey there then now eh -
Posted by: modquad
Weez, you and everyone up there should be very proud. GREAT JOB!!!!!!
Posted by: blackballed
Just adding to DB's thoughts....you really have to go out and educate your fellow riding lobbyists.
The #1 problem I see among those who are interested in making a difference is that most of these people don't have the practical experience with even a "follow the money" concept; as DB suggested above. You really have to be patient with these people and force them to FOCUS on the priorities at hand...not allow them to slide off into these "by God, we ought to be able to do this..." crap that has absolutely nothing to do with solving the immediate problem at hand (this is just a HUGE problem at your average club meeting).
Getting people to stand beside you that one can actually be PROUD of being associated with, is simply not as easy as it one was with the sledders and motorcyclists. By and large, these were older, professional people who had experiences to draw from that served them well in the battles they faced.....and the respect was mutual.
Maybe this problem is unique to 'my' state (the only half-way professional people we have here want to receive some kind of perverted individual "glory" out of any effort put forward)...yet I think you'll find that the average rider needs more than a little schooling in the "ways of the world" before you start in on what your group's actual priorities should be on a daily basis....which a lot of them don't realize might change just as often.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Damn it is good to see that ordinary people like you and me can make a difference. The system works folks.... now get out there and make it work in your area!
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Whodat... I agree with supporting groups that are fighting for access rights... but I 'll take you to task on the numbers deal... I for one don't care how they got the people there.. Whether it was because of bussing, or due to an email campaign.. it doesn't matter.. they showed up enmasse. And that is a GOOD thing. It got somebody's attention.. and now they will make darn sure that anything said is going to be correct.. and not the hysterical nonsense the environmental lobby would like us to believe.
It is time for people in power to know that we are listening, and paying attention to what is said, how they vote, and who is on our side or against us. I also hope that every person in America will stop giving these maniacs their funding to save the whales, when the dollars are really being used to take our riding rights away.
KUDO's to MN residents for leading the way.....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree, great job... But I am a little concerned over the negative reaction towards DNR all the time.
As an outsider, it appears to me that they are sort of caught in the middle and catching heck from all sides. IF I understand things correctly, DNR is trying to fight FOR access against the Environmentalists... and that there is congressional support that opposes closures... I also understand that perhaps their plan didn't go far enough, and that is why the turnout and hostility....
I think the DNR got the message here... or at least I would hope so... Perhaps now their responses can be better coordinated with the enthusiast groups. The wrong thing would be to treat them as an enemy, and they lean towards the other side.
You must remember that the holding of these meetings, and the overwhelming turnouts are good things.... It generates positive media coverage, and gets the message out to the public. Close coordination is paramount.. but let them do their work too. I think you have a potential allie here.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yeah, but don't cloud the issues with hostile predjudices... The goal is to let them know that closure of trails is not acceptable, and work with them to find a common ground, so that together you can work against the real foe.. the environmental lobbyists. I think you accomplished the first, now the real work starts on teh harder issues of number two.
Trucks, snowmobiles etc all are tools they need to do their jobs. As for deer dying... well, I think that is Nature at it's worst. I am not specialist, but I imagine that even if there had been a feeding plan etc.. some deer would have still died. Part of being a naturalist is to let Nature take it's course. even when it turns ugly... Those that survive are stronger for it... and in turn the herd is healthier.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I don't know Whodat... in my neck of the woods, where there are literally millions of people living in my county... a turnout of 2500 people at a public hearing sends a pretty big message to the people holding the debate. I would hesitate to downplay the importance of their attendance.
As for trail building etc... I thin kit safe to say that in many cases, what passes as trails today are just the byproduct of many people out exploring the woods, and others joining in. There probably was little if no thought given to the design, or construction. Today, we know a heck of a lot more about the science of building trails that can accomodate multi use, and do it in ways that are ecologically sound.
The problem is that the three big players here, DNR, ECO warriors, and enthusiasts are spending thier precious time and $ fighting it out in court for control.... IF they could just sit down and acknowledge each other's point of view, and ask the other side to work with them to develope new techniques and procedures, and help plan the reconstruction and developement of new trails when appropriate, the process could move forward, and each could gain ground. Imagine, the envirnonmentalists helping the DNR layout and design a trail that is eco safe. What a wonderful opportunity to be involved and ensure success.
The problem is that this utopian thought requires that egos be placed in their pockets, and a constructive attitude be put in it's place.
As an avid ATV enthusiast, I admit that there are places on the trails that are eco disasters. So instead of trying to close all trails and lableing all motorised traffic as destructive, why not help us fix the problems. We are willing to do that. IN MN there are local riding clubs that volunteer to build bridges over fragile environments along the trails... Certainly there are professional organizations today like th etrails America orgainization that do know how to correctly build trails in ways that are friendly to the environment, and would support both motorized and non motorized recreation. We don't want to be seen as the enemy.. and we are trying desperately to get the environmental factions, and the DNR, who is tasked by law to administer it all to sit down in non hostile cooperation and get it done. This may mean that some trails are too fragile to support motorized traffic. OK, then make them foot traffic only... but help replace them with trails that can support motorized recreation.
Together I think both groups can coexist... and when you think about it, the DNR and environmentalists are here to meet the needs of all of our citizens. Not just the elite few.... ALL persons have the right to enjoy our natural wonders... the only differences we have, are in the manner in which it is done.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
AMEN to that... I think if everyone would stop giving money to all the save the "flavor of the month" causes, these people would have to all go out and get real jobs... Maybe then, we could get some peace...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I can't argue with that... Other than hope that people wise up to these antics. Hopefully someone will stand up and ask where the funding goes?
Being in Washington DC, I have seen this non profit industry taken to a whole new level. They spend money in ways that even Saddam Hussein couldn't think of... Talk about an "axis of evil".... and our government gives them special tax status to boot...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Gettin a little snow happy are we? Dem cabins get pretty small dis time of year don't you know... Ya sure, you betcha
Do you mide if I substitute Lefsa for Luitefisk?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I grew up on a farm in central WI, and my grandma spoke nothing but Norge for years.... so I have the right to tell Ole jokes, and type with an accent der OK?. And boy what I would give to get some of my grandma's fresh lefsa right about now.... I'll pass on the pickled fish though...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Oh yeah.... Or should I say oh hey der, you betcha... Been on the east coast for too long.. my fingers are losing my accent. That is the problem with living around DC, there are so many foreign born citizens here, the poor kids pick up all the accents and then you put them in a classroom with an old Virginia kid speaking like NASCAR's WARD BURTON, and you think they were from a different planet...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
sounds to me that Mr. Anderson asked some pretty direct questions... and although there was a little tap dancing going on in the answers, it is clear that the DNR has heard the voice of the people on this issue, and that support of the lawmakers is important to the actions being considered and taken. I hope that the organizers responsible for getting enthusiasts to show up at the meeting will work equally as hard and volunteer to be by their side when they undertake the survey... and work constructively with the DNR in developing the new master plan.....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hah.. speaking of Ward and Jeff Burton, it is hard to believe they are brothers who grew up in the same house if you listen to them speak. Ward is OLD back hills, Waltons type Virginia, Jeff is new..They grew up around South Bostom VA, near the North Carolina border. I have lived here in Virginia for 15 years now, and still can't understand some of them....
I think in your case, it must be the hockey influence... of course being a Vikings fam might have something to do with it too..... Dem Packer backers are a wild bunch... but I prefered the Da Bears when I was a kid. Now days, I can't sit and watch a whole game... too boring...and I can't help get angry when you consider the wages some of those prima donna's get..... it just makes me sick.
I went to agame once in Chicago, Got free tickets, and after buying some snacks and paying for parking, I still spent over a hundred bucks.. it is rediculous...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Ward is on the sidelines this year, working on his other hunting and fishing interests. He is really into land management, and speaks all over the country for his wildlife management foundation.. I beleive he is coaching some of the younger drivers breaking in, and helping with setups for a couple teams... but nothing regular. I think he is taking time off to catch his breath and recharge his batteries. Out here in Virginia, NASCAR is king. Oh and then there is the Redskins... Gosh, I sure hate redskins fans.... they are like rabid animals... I wear my Denver Bronco's hat every game day just to piss them off.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Sounds like a change for the good... Sour grapes and all that... It appears that the local elected officials are listening to their constituants and are getting involved. This illustrates that the system can and does work when like minded people band together for a common cause. I suspect the eco warriors were caught with their pants down this time, but will be coming loaded for bear the next round. I encourage everyone to continue to monitor and voice their opinion when they get the chance.
It also illustrates the misinformation and half truths that are being used against us. Do machines cause damage, sure they can, but not everyone does it either. Grouping everyone into one category is a disservice. It appears more to me that they have an enforcement problem.... not an accross the board stereotypical opinion.
You can expect more whining from this guy... probably will be used as an "EXPERT" witness by the environmentalists in some hearing...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Well I don't harbor any hard feelings towards other persons who use the same forests to recreate in their own way... they have the same rights we do to the land.... but only when they afford the same respect to my rights to recreate in my own way.
The guys really caught in the middle and deserve our support are the guys of the DNR... who have to listen to the complaints of all the different factions, and comply with many arbitrary edicts that come down from on high. They are not fools... they know where their food on the table comes from. That is why the actions taken were swift in response to the local turnout at the recent meeting. It is also the reason that future meetings will require the same, if not more of a response to continue with the momentum you have achieved. You can bet the environmentalists will come back with a better game plan and try to fill the joint.
The DNR deserves your respect, and assistance. I sure hope the factory's take advantage of this shift in power and provide free machines, personal assistance in GPS mapping etc to the DNR. Local clubs should also offer their services... in short build up good will.
And get the news media involved too.. Let them see the good that is being done. I'd even propose a series of news stories and go directly to the people who benefit from the presence of ATV riders on the trails. Business owners like motels, restaurants, gas stations etc.. ask them how much of their business can be attributed to ATV's... In short, attack the environmentalists using the same tools they have used against us to sway public opinion. Let them see that ATV'rs are serious and responsible citizens, and support the efforts of the DNR...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Who can say why people choose their vocation in life... Certainly I suspect the people of the DNR have an extreme feeling for the outdoors, and a desire to preserve it. That sounds like an environmentalist to me, and thank goodness we have them. I'd hate to think what our environment would be like without them. The problem comes when things are taken to extreme.. and you get persons and egos involved. I believe what they are saying has a lot of truth in it. No doubt about it.
Certainly I think there is a need to do a better job of trail building that can make it possible for ATV's, snowmobiles, mountain bikes, horses and even hikers to use the same space without causing damage to the environment. The real challenge for the DNR is to try and please everyone to some degree, although it may seem like an impossible task.
Given the task at hand, the inventory of existing trails, I think it is reasonable to take this information and use it in planning. With limited resources available, you are going to see more and more need for a cooperative effort between agencies like the DNR and volunteer organizations... clubs etc... to provide the necessary labor to make those changes happen.
This is probably going to result in some closures of trails in areas where environmentally the trail cannot support the multi use until it has been properly upgraded. The real challenge to enthusiasts now is that instead of bitching, they need to roll up their sleeves and get the work done. The fact is, without this cooperatve effort, and volunteer labor... you are going to lose this battle. Plain and simple.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Looks like you have some friends in the legislature... and some enemies too. Not sure where to look, but I'd guess the committie chairman has at one time or another established a relationship with the eco lobby. Maybe if it were to be made known just how much his campaign fund benefits from them...... well you do the math...
You have to wonder in may cases if our elected officials are serving the interests of the people they serve, or use them as a means to attract large sums from lobby groups. It may be all legal and proper... but morally it stinks....
All the more reason for people to support candidates that DO support the same causes we are fighting for...
Weez, I don't see this as a city versus country thing.... the forces at play here are the same no matter where you live... it is all in the degree of greed that takes place. Also, in these give and takes... you are going to lose some.. and gain some... That is inevitable. Much of what will be decided will be in the form of compromise.. The key is not to criticise, but to become involved. You would be surprised just how much influence your ideas will have if you are there working with the DNR, instead of sitting accross the table from them... Hopefully the two of you will be on one side of the table, and the envirnonmentalist groups will be on the other.
Right now, it looks like the enviro's are balking because it looks like the DNR is biting the hand that feeds them... Well guess what.. the STATE pays for the DNR... and citizens elect the officials that operate that apparatus... and hopefully, with enough input from enthusiasts, and continued pressure on the elected officials, you will build on the momentum. This is just the first salvo...
Posted by: nubbin
Does anyone have the correct e-mail address for helen cozzetto? On the paul bunyan forest issue I try 5 times to get letters through to her and each time I was rejected. I guess on the first address that I got off of this forum the dots were in the wrong place, they made a correction and that was wrong too. Please send the correct address and I encourage everyone that atvs in the state of MN. to write and let their feelings known.
Posted by: nubbin
No, I am sending from my own pc. I wrote about 5 times and got sick and tired of getting rejected. I live in the summer time right next to paul bunyan state forest so am very concerned about what happens there and the other state forest. I believe I will join a local club up there and be more supportive to the sport. I ride around up there and run into areas that people use as dumps and kids have their beer parties. I think atvers get blamed for some of that which is unfair. But I do think that we have to start policing ourselves better if we plan on riding in the future. Stay on trails and stop tearing up the landscape. I am glad to see that there is a lot of support on this forum.
Posted by: nubbin
You guys forgot uff-da. I don't know if the spelling is right, could not find it in dictionary. I wonder why? Anyway ya all have a good day now, ya hear.
Posted by: minnrider
this address worked for me nubbin,helen.cozzetto@dnr.state.mn.us
Posted by: hondabuster
DNR NEWS - FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
FEBRUARY 14, 2005
Media contacts: Forrest Boe, DNR Northwest Trails and
Waterways
manager, (218) 755-3969; Helen Cozzetto, DNR Northwest
natural resources
planner, (218) 755-3954.
DNR changes location of Beltrami Island public meeting to
Warroad
hockey arena
Anticipating a large public turnout, the Minnesota
Department of
Natural Resources (DNR) is changing the location of the
public meeting
to discuss proposals for Beltrami Island State Forest. The
meeting will
now be held at The Gardens Arena, 707 Elk Street NW,
Warroad, on
Thursday, Feb. 17 from 6 to 9 p.m.
DNR Deputy Commissioner Mark Holsten and Assistant
Commissioner Brad
Moore will be among the DNR representatives in attendance
to listen to
the public input.
Following 2003 legislation, the proposal recommends
changing Beltrami
Island's forest classification from "Managed" to "Limited"
and
designating some 530 miles of forest roads and trails open
to various
types of motorized uses. Leaving the forest classified as
"Managed" was
not a legal option.
The new designation would mean that forest trails in
Beltrami Island
would be closed to motor vehicle use unless posted open.
Forest roads
(both maintained system roads and minimum maintenance
roads) would be
open to both highway-licensed vehicles and all three types
of
off-highway vehicles (OHVs) unless they are specifically
posted closed.
OHVs include all-terrain vehicles (ATVs), off-highway
motorcycles (OHMs)
and off-road vehicles (ORVs), such as four-wheel-drive
Jeeps and
trucks.
DNR staff are urging the public to take a look at maps of
its proposed
changes before the public meeting, as comments that are
specific will be
most helpful to plan development.
Maps of the proposed motorized route designations are
available for
public viewing on the DNR's Web site at
www.dnr.state.mn.us, at public
libraries and area DNR offices in Baudette, Bemidji,
Crookston, East
Grand Forks, Grygla, Roseau, Thief River Falls, Wannaska
and Warroad.
DNR offices in Wannaska and Thief River Falls will also
provide
electronic copies of the maps on CDs for interested
citizens.
"Ride as if everyone is watching; Talk as if everyone is
listening . . ."
Posted by: hondabuster
Many thanks to those who went, you speak for alot of us.
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/10930163.htm
Posted on Fri, Feb. 18, 2005
Grand Forks Herald
DNR plan shot down
Agency holds largest ever public input meeting on ATV
access
By Brad Dokken
Herald Staff Writer
WARROAD, Minn. - Opponents of a proposal to limit motorized
vehicle use in Beltrami Island State Forest turned out in
force here Thursday night to express their views to the
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources.
An estimated 2,200 people filled The Gardens arena to learn
more about the controversial plan, which results from 2003
legislation requiring the DNR to change the way it manages
motorized vehicles in all of Minnesota's state forests.
Despite the full house, there wasn't a hockey player in
sight. Not in uniform, at least.
DNR officials said it was the largest public input meeting
the agency ever had hosted.
"There's a saying that government works best when people
are involved," said DNR assistant commissioner Brad Moore.
"We're here because we wanted to listen to you tonight,
hear what you have to say."
In the case of Beltrami, the DNR is proposing to allow
motorized vehicles on 590 miles of roads and trails within
the forest's boundary. Meanwhile, 593 miles would be
off-limits because they're on federal lands, wetlands or in
areas with little history of public use.
A team of DNR staff developed the proposal after compiling
an inventory of all the roads and trails, a total of 1,135
miles, within the boundaries of Beltrami forest. With more
than 738,000 acres, Beltrami is one of the largest state
forests in Minnesota. One of the plan's main goals is to
protect environmentally sensitive areas such as wetlands;
about 70 percent of Beltrami forest is classified as
wetlands, where trails for motorized use are prohibited.
Based on public outcry to the proposal, DNR officials said
Thursday night they're going to extend the comment period
from Feb. 28 until sometime this summer.
"We'll go back this summer and step up the inventory, try
to make the corrections and try to respond," said Mike
Carroll, director of the DNR's Division of Forestry, who
served as moderator for the meeting. "I'm delighted this
many people care about their recreational heritage. I think
that's a good thing."
Testimony
Thursday night's turnout came as no surprise. The Beltrami
forest plan has ignited fierce controversy among many in
northwest Minnesota, who see the proposal as a further
attempt by the DNR to restrict access to public land.
Beltrami forest has a long history of use by everyone from
bear hunters to berry pickers, and Thursday night, many of
those users stepped up to the microphone to tell DNR brass
they oppose anything that limits those opportunities.
George Swentik, a Lake of the Woods County commissioner,
offered one of the most emotional statements of the night
when he asked the DNR to more closely involve northwest
Minnesota residents in the planning process.
"This isn't about locking up a few trails, this is about
locking up Beltrami State Forest," Swentik said. "This is
the beginning of a bad ending.
"Can we correct this? Yes, if we go back to common sense
cooperation. Are we willing to come to the table together?
Yes we are. We'll come to the table with the DNR. Let's air
our differences, but let's do right for our people. I ask
one thing. Put a stop to where we are right now. Put the
maps away. Let's go to the table and start new."
Swentik drew a standing ovation for his words.
Petition
Before the meeting, Dennis Battles, 30, who lives south of
Warroad, was on hand circulating a petition, its purpose
simply stated by the white and red sticker adorning his
Chevy racing cap: "Save Our Trails." With the help of his
brother, Jeff, and friends Randy and Lynn Ward, Battles
said he had gathered more than 5,200 certified signatures
in the past month asking the DNR to back off of its trail
proposal. The Battles and Randy Ward presented the petition
to Deputy DNR commissioner Mark Holsten on Thursday night.
"Nobody wants to see any access closed," Battles said.
"Getting 5,200 signatures in less than four weeks says a
lot about what the public opinion is."
The reduced opportunities for ATV use were especially
significant among those who commented Thursday night.
That's no surprise, perhaps, because Polaris in Roseau,
Minn., and Arctic Cat in Thief River Falls manufacture
ATVs, and the vehicles are a popular source of recreation
in northwest Minnesota. Polaris and Arctic Cat each sent
buses to Warroad for the meeting, and Polaris canceled its
second shift, so employees could attend.
While the plan allows ATVs on 321 miles of forest roads,
only 54 miles are specifically set aside for ATVs and
off-highway motorcycles.
Bennett Morgan, vice president and general manager of
Polaris' ATV division, was one of three company officials
to comment on the plan. Morgan said the 2003 legislation
initially was designed to support riding opportunities; in
reality, just the opposite is happening.
"It's Polaris' position the DNR needs to stop its current
process now," Morgan said. "Not just here in Beltrami, but
in all 54 state forests. Develop a plan that meets the
objectives of more ATV trails, not less."
Despite the emotion surrounding the Beltrami proposal,
Thursday night's meeting mostly proceeded without incident,
aside from an occasional boo for DNR staff and applause for
those who opposed the proposal. The enforcement presence
was significant, with DNR conservation officers, county
sheriff's deputies and local police officers on hand to
keep the crowd in line and the emotions in check.
The most noticeable outburst occurred when a Twin Cities
environmentalist stepped up to support the proposal. Matt
Norton of the Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy
drew jeers from the audience for his comments, prompting
one legislator attending the meeting to step up and quiet
down the crowd.
"Please be quiet until Matt is done," said Rep. Tom
Hackbarth, R-Cedar. "He wants you to get mad. That's what
he's playing you for."
Other legislators attending Thursday night were Sen. LeRoy
Stumpf, DFL-Thief River Falls, Sen. Tom Saxhaug, DFL-Grand
Rapid, and Rep. Maxine Penas, R-Badger. In an interview
before the meeting, Stumpf said part of the problem with
the Beltrami proposal is the Legislature mandated a
"one-size-fits-all" management approach to state forests.
That might make sense in more populated areas, he said, but
not in northwest Minnesota. Stumpf said he's drafted
legislation that would allow the DNR to manage forests in
northern Minnesota north of U.S. Highway 2 differently than
those farther south.
"The Legislature sometimes is like a gun that can't shoot
straight," Stumpf said. "I think on this point, the
legislation was a misfire.
"None of the public is asking to run roughshod
cross-country with ATVs," Stumpf said. "They just want to
use the trails. What the public wants if very realistic and
reasonable."
With the comment period extended until next summer,
Holsten, the deputy DNR commissioner, said it's important
for the public to realize the process for Beltrami forest
is just beginning.
"Your comments are important, and we are listening,"
Holsten said.
Send written comments on the plan to Helen Cozzetto, DNR
natural resources planner, 6603 Bemidji Ave. N., Bemidji MN
56601; e-mail to helen.cozzetto@dnr.state.mn.us; or fax to
(218) 755-4063.
Posted by: hondabuster
I couldnt make it, but Im glad there was such a good urn out. Sounds like the locals up there have a better handle on the situation than the guys like me down south. This could stop the so called progress in the other state forest areas.
As I was following the story in the news, I heard there were two dnr supervisior/managers who lost their jobs last week. I gotta believe it has to do with the issues in the news.
Posted by: hondabuster
helen.cozzetto@dnr.state.mn.us
Thats the one I sent to. Are you trying to send from work? Does it come back as undeliverable?
Posted by: hondabuster
In todays paper, and a bit on the lighter side.
article
Posted on Sun, Feb. 27, 2005
RYAN BAKKEN COLUMN: 2,200 in one place -- and it wasn't a lutefisk feed in Park River
Ten days ago in Warroad, Minn., about 2,200 people gathered for a public hearing about ATV use.
Except for one or two crackpots, the entire crowd opposed the Department of Natural Resources' attempts at closing trails in the Beltrami Island State Forest to four-wheelers. This was an amazing display of grassroots involvement.
It was an even more amazing display of a galvanizing issue. Such big crowds in Roseau County are usually reserved for more important events, such as high school hockey games.
You need to think of this turnout in terms of per capita. Proportionately, this is a lot bigger turnout than collected to hear President George W. Bush's talk in Fargo. Of course, some would argue, ATVs have a clearer message than our president.
You have to admit - 2,200 is a big crowd. I covered the Grand Forks City Council for two years and never had 2,200 total people show up at all the public meetings I attended.
If you use the per capita comparison with the ATV crowd in Roseau County, I can think of only two examples where a Grand Forks gathering would be equivalent.
Once was when Cher came to The Al and showed that a 50-something can be sexier than Jessica, Britney, Christina and Beyonce combined.
The other time is every other weekend in the winter, when people show up at The Ralph for the finest in college hockey and the privilege of buying $5 beers.
This got me thinking about what other regional events could draw comparable crowds to the 2,200 people that showed up in the dead of winter in Warroad, a town of 1,600.
Here are some possibilities:
• In East Grand Forks, a tag-team wrestling match between the warring factions on the City Council.
• In Thompson, a proposal to pave the streets for free.
• In Reynolds, any attempt to be annexed by Thompson.
• In Park River, a lutefisk feed.
• In Minto, a polish sausage feed.
• In Hillsboro, the pelting of tax-dodging American Crystal Sugar corporate officers with rotten tomatoes.
• In Grafton, any citywide vote to build dikes or ban indoor smoking or ban smoking on dikes.
• In Devils Lake, a dunking booth featuring members of The Friends of the Sheyenne, with the booth in the middle of the lake and no available lifejackets.
• In Bemidji, Babe the Blue Ox giving birth.
• In Grand Forks, the opening of a water park. Any water park.
So, our congratulations to northwestern Minnesota residents who showed up in force. The mere presence of that many dissenters will change the DNR's plan.
As I close, a quick memo to the DNR: Don't mess with the snowmobile rules, either.
Posted by: hondabuster
This was in todays paper,an interview with the new MN dnr commisioner.
interview
Dennis Anderson: ATV use is hot-button issue
Dennis Anderson, Star Tribune
March 4, 2005
This week, Department of Natural Resources Commissioner Gene Merriam named DNR Forestry Division Director Mike Carroll the agency's regional director for the northwest, stationed in Bemidji. The action follows the recent re-assignment of regional director Paul Swenson and highlights the many conflicts brewing in the northwest, particularly over use of all-terrain vehicles (ATVs). In the interview below, Merriam addresses these and other contentious issues.
Q: How will the appointment of DNR Forestry Division Director Mike Carroll help the DNR address the many conflicts it faces in northwest Minnesota?
A: Mike has been director of the division of forestry for four or five years. He is a strong and effective manager, and although he comes out of forestry, he has a highly varied natural-resources background.
As forestry director, Mike operated out of St. Paul, but also out of Park Rapids, where he lives. When we re-assigned Paul [Swenson], Mike indicated an interest in the job, and after Deputy Commissioner Mark Holsten, Assistant Commissioner Brad Moore and I discussed the needs the DNR has in the northwest, we thought Mike would be a good fit.
Q: Given the significant conflicts over ATV use in the northwest, and other problems concerning ditches, flooding and public lands, what qualities did you seek in a new regional director?
A: A lot of constituent outreach needs to be done in the northwest. Some enmity has grown there toward the agency over the years, and it was becoming more and more apparent that a new effort was needed to work with the people up there.
Q: Was Swenson failing in that regard?
A: Keep in mind, no one was terminated. We did make some reassignments. Paul [Swenson] has done a lot of valuable things for the DNR. He is highly regarded for his work on flood damage. I would only say positive things about him. But I think 12 years is a long time for someone to be in such a tough position, when you're on the front lines of delivering services and dealing with contentious issues.
Q: The recent meeting in Warroad attracted 2,200 people, most in favor of ATV use in the northwest on various lands, including state forests.
A: If the meeting wasn't the largest public participation meeting in the history of the DNR, it was close. Clearly, the ATV issue and our designation of trails in state forests has gotten the attention of the citizens of Roseau County in particular and the northwest in general.
Keep in mind, the idea of the public participation process is to factor in public sentiment into our decision making. And I think it would be accurate to say from what we have heard prior to and during the meeting about the Beltrami Island State Forest rules we developed for ATV use that people in that part of the state question how and why some of the rules were made. At the meeting, after hearing from people who know that forest extensively, it became clear we need to look at those trails again, after the snow has melted.
Q: You're bound by law to designate ATV trails on state forests.
A: We're required by Dec. 31, 2008, to go through all of the state forests and make all of the trail designations. In each case, we have to have at least one public meeting. Beyond that, we have a great deal of discretion as to how many trails we designate and where we designate them.
This particular forest is complicated by a number of factors. There are extensive lowlands and wetlands in the forest. Also there are many and scattered federal land ownerships leased to the state that raise some questions about what our rights and duties are regarding the state and that land.
Q: What are the other hot button issues in the northwest?
A: ATV trails in Kittson County also are an issue. Not within state forests, but in places where ATVs have been ridden in the past that have since been made into state Wildlife Management Areas. We also have the whole Con-Con land conflict, where the law requires us to designate at least 90 miles of trails within those lands. There is a lot of dissatisfaction on how fast we're doing that and how well we're doing it. Also, just the presence of the Con-Con lands has led to conflicts up there.
And the fact that there has been so much flooding in the northwest in recent years has heightened other sensitivities.
Q: Can you give assurances to "anti-ATV" people and others that the DNR is not going to sell out to locals in the northwest over these issues?
A: I and all of the people within the DNR take very seriously our responsibility to protect the resources. At the same time we realize that both motorized recreation and utilitarian use of ATVs are appropriate. But we have two responsibilities regarding ATVs when considering these issues: Is use of ATVs going to do permanent damage to the resource? And secondly, what of the conflict among people and groups over use of ATV? There have to be appropriate places to ride. But we also have to keep other places for other people and uses.
Q: Are problems in the northwest requiring the DNR to direct disproportionate amounts of staff time and resources there?
A: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't call the northwest situation a distraction.
Q: Rumors have it that legislators from the northwest pressured the DNR to make personnel changes there.
A: There have been no directions or requests regarding changes of that kind, either from legislators or from the governor's office. Certainly we have met with legislators from the northwest, but no one has ever told us to get this person or that person out of there.
Posted by: hondabuster
The story becomes more interesting..one of the dnr supervisors, who got displaced, has his turn.
todays paper
Politics and policies cause clash at DNR
Tom Meersman, Star Tribune
March 14, 2005
A retiring Minnesota Department of Natural Resources supervisor has leveled sharp criticism at the agency for what he says is its failure to protect wildlife habitat and for bowing to political pressure over greater all-terrain vehicle use on public lands.
Jim Breyen, 58, who had been a regional wildlife supervisor since 1986, said he was pushed out of his job and chose to retire rather than take reassignment. He said top DNR administrators are overruling their own staff on environmental issues and bending rules to accommodate ATV drivers and manufacturers.
The dispute illustrates a growing debate in Minnesota and nationally about how to protect natural resources when that might conflict with local lifestyles. "It has become what's best for the political scene, not what's best for the resources," Breyen said.
Breyen left the DNR's northwestern office last Tuesday after nearly 35 years with the agency. He and Paul Swenson, the agency's regional administrator in Bemidji, were relieved of their duties last month. Swenson accepted a new assignment and has not spoken in detail about the circumstances of his job change.
Breyen said he suspects he was removed because of his concerns about ATVs, and especially because of his opposition to opening wildlife management areas to them.
DNR Commissioner Gene Merriam would not discuss Breyen's personnel issues, but he disagreed with Breyen's opinions.
"We're not looking at sacrificing protection or conservation of the natural resources," Merriam said, but neither is the agency ignoring local concerns. "We're trying to bring all those things into balance."
Breyen, an expert on state rules and laws governing wetlands, drainage ditches and wildlife management areas, said that the DNR's approach is not balanced. The agency is following a 2003 law to identify and approve trails in more than 60 state forests, he said, but it has no idea how many thousands of miles of trails will be adequate, what it will cost to maintain them and whether any sections of forests should be designated as non-motorized zones.
Breyen said the commissioner's office receives constant pressure to open wildlife management areas to ATVs. Those areas are dedicated by law to maximize waterfowl and wildlife production. With a few exceptions, they are closed to ATVs except during the fall hunting season.
Last month, Kittson County asked the DNR to change some restrictions and open certain roads, trails and ditch embankments -- some of which abut or cross wildlife management areas -- to ATVs. He and other wildlife specialists have argued against the idea, Breyen said, because vehicles can disturb sensitive nesting areas, spoil recreation for bird watchers and hikers and leave permanent scars on the landscape.
Mark Holsten, DNR deputy commissioner, said the question of county rights and traditional trails in Kittson and other northwestern counties is complicated and long-standing. "We have some legitimate issues that need to get sorted out," Holsten said. The agency is reviewing requests for ATV trails bordering some wildlife management areas, he said, but will not open any trail systems in interior areas.
Breyen also criticized the commissioner's office for other recent decisions, including:
• Overruling field staff recommendations against off-road truck trails in the Paul Bunyan State Forest in north-central Minnesota because of potential erosion problems.
• Holding private meetings with county commissioners who want more ATV trails in Beltrami Island State Forest, which he said tells local officials they can bypass local and regional DNR staff.
• Rejecting field staff advice that the state should not sell any "internal improvement lands," which include more than 6,600 acres of prime undeveloped shoreline and other property that the federal government gave the state in the mid-1800s.
• Not countering misinformation in northwestern Minnesota about the DNR's proposed ATV trail plan for Beltrami Island State Forest. The draft plan provides more than 500 miles of ATV trails, but has drawn angry complaints from residents, many of whom attended a public meeting in Warroad last month.
Merriam said he takes responsibility for "bungling" the Beltrami Island situation by not explaining the plan well. "The mistaken notion that we were closing Beltrami Island State Forest to ATV use spread like wildfire, and there were people attempting to perpetuate that miscommunication to whip people up," he said. The trail plan remains under review.
On other issues, Merriam said the agency must provide trails for off-road trucks as well as for ATVs, and he must be responsive to local officials on contentious issues. He said the agency is still studying the value of the internal improvement lands.
Despite his criticism of top officials, Breyen praised DNR staff as some of the top professionals in the country: "Taxpayers are getting a bargain."
Breyen said he learned on Feb. 11 that he was being relieved of his duties, and decided to retire instead of being reassigned. "I was told it wasn't because of anything I said or did, but because we need a new face up there," he said.
DNR deputy commissioner Mark Holsten declined to discuss Breyen's personnel situation, but denied that outside groups were a factor.
But Orris Rasmussen, chairman of the Roseau County Board, took some credit for recent DNR changes in its regional office. Rasmussen said he complained to Holsten about DNR trail policies, personnel and other issues two or three times during January, and met privately with the deputy commissioner late in the month.
When asked if he had requested that regional administrator Swenson be fired, Rasmussen said, "Well I don't have anything to say about that, I guess. It's not my call ... I just said we've got to make some changes here and that's the way it is. And if that's what it took, then that's what it took."
Posted by: hondabuster
http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5296773.html
It definetly appears the northern part of the state is much more friendly than the southern part for atvs. You guys up north have some stand up guys for legislature, keep voting the good guys in. And I agree with daggin...the dnr is just doing a job for the most part, the legislature makes the rules.
Senate ATV bill defeated in committee
Tom Meersman, Star Tribune
March 17, 2005 ATV0317
A legislative panel rejected a proposal today that would increase penalties for off-road vehicle drivers who break the law by damaging wetlands, trespassing, or driving cross-country on public land.
The measure, proposed by Sen. John Marty, DFL-Roseville, was defeated on a 4-to-7 vote in the Senate Environment and Natural Resources committee that Marty chairs.
It would also prohibit off-road trucks from driving on trails in state forests, require larger registration plates on all-terrain vehicles and extend a reimbursement account for citizens with property damage from illegal off-road driving.
Rejection of the measure illustrated the controversy over how to regulate ATVs, and how it has divided legislators from different parts of the state.
DFL senators from northern Minnesota on the committee voted against Marty's proposal and said they wanted to take up two different bills instead. One measure, proposed by Sen. Tom Bakk, DFL-Cook, includes less restrictive penalties for off-road lawbreakers and would allow ATV driving along approximately 50 miles of the North Shore trail just north of Duluth. A proposal by Sen. LeRoy Stumpf, DFL-Thief River Falls, would allow ATV driving on all trails--not just those approved by state officials--in state forests in the northern third of Minnesota.
Marty adjourned the meeting abruptly after his bill was defeated, saying that as chairman of the committee he had made it clear that any other proposals needed to be amended onto his bill. Baak and Stumpf charged afterward that Marty short-circuited the legislative process, and they vowed to continue efforts to push their bills forward
Posted by: yamihoo
Awesome! My hats off to Arctic Cat and Polaris!
Posted by: weez440
i will be there with bells on i think it is gonna be kinda interesting what is all gonna be said.
Posted by: weez440
actually i heard there was alot more people there then 2200 and i guess i am glad to be from where i am the people that night asked alot of good questions even thought we didn't get many answers maybe they will see that we the people have banded together for something we believe in and will work with us and honda did you ask a ? by any chance?
Posted by: weez440
who were you there? there wasn't just a few busses in the parking lot we had to park about 2 blocks away and walk to the arena. and the gardens hockey arena is huge. i heard there was somewhere around 2800 people there and i believe it cause every seat was filled and there was alot of people standing by the lobbey. the people that arctic cat and polaris bussed in were not made to go nobody put a gun to their head they went cause they wanted to. before they started they said the average size meeting was between 100 and 200 people so that gives ya a good idea how big this was. if anyone in here had the honor of going to this meeting i know that you felt the same way i did when i left that this was a good day for atvers in minnesota and maybe opened up the dnr's eyes to maybe they should start working with the people from now on casue if not we will work against them and the dnr isn't exactly popular up here to begin with.
Posted by: weez440
so draggin brings up a good point who cares how they got there as long as they went. right? and 30,000 people in this small community would be impossible the size of warroad is roughly 3000 people total this is a very small community. and what they are proposing for trails in beltrami is just not acceptable most of the roughly 500 miles are gravel roads and what 54 miles are gonna be used for atv's only. with all the traffic up there on these trails they will be overused and ripped to shread's. one person at the meeting asked with all the money we spend on hunting, fishing, snowmobile, atv, and boating license how much of that is put forth to beltrami state forrest. their response virtually none. so where is this money going there are some simple fixes to these problems. say there is a trail 50 miles long and 2 miles go through swamp instead of rerouting for them 2 miles they wanna close down the whole trail. (btw this was all brought up during the meeting). and on a positive note in this immediate area we don't have an atv club that takes care of our own so about 10 of us got together and are contemplating on starting up an atv club in minnesota or extending off one further south of us we just don't know how we are going to do it yet but sometimes the people gotta take things into their own hands.
Posted by: weez440
thank you for the compliment mod we appreciate any support we get from anyone cause we all know that there are 54 state forrests in minnesota and this was the start of what we can expect in all of them. you have some very good points draggin and i agree we should be working with the dnr and they should be working with us which seems to maybe be happening, for when summer kinda rolls around again sounds like they are gonna go up there and assess the trails a lil more closely. there are a few reasons why the dnr got the reaction from the public they did. 1. they went up there and inventoried all the trails and did all this without the public or local politions knowing about it. 2. the miles of trails they want to just shut down is completely unacceptable. 3. the dnr hasn't been and doesn't seem like they plan on spending any of our tax dollars on correcting this just wanna shut down the trails. 4. well today i seen it again a brand new chevy truck with a brand new polaris snowmobile in the back of it the dnr was driving around and we all know where that money came from. i have yet to see them drive anything more then a couple years old. 5. i have seen them do little to nothing to help the wildlife specially in the harsh months you may all remember when grand forks flooded in the spring of 1997. there was so much snow the deer were dying of starvation all over the place just dropping dead and the dnr didn't do anything about it. so that is 5 of actually quite a few reasons the dnr isn't very well liked by me there are a few others but they can redeem themselves right here and now if they work with us.
Posted by: weez440
daty you are correct about the deer population now even though we getting off the subject how the population is overwealiming it would have been nice when the winters were real bad to have seen more being done even though the next 2 years we didn't have much of a deer population but they were all very nice big healthy deer. and i see when you crunch the numbers how it may not look like there was alot of people that went there but not everyone cares about this subject there are alot of people who live in towns and cities and never even driven an atv. warroad warriors high school hockey is in the section 8A tournaments (i think they are 29-0-2 so go warriors) and it was on a thursday night and lasted till later and with the majority of people having to get up early for work and driving farther distances it wasn't convenient for their jobs i know i was draggin butt the next day at work. and the hockey arena wouldn't have fit anymore people then what they had they would have had to start turning people away due to fire hazards and just no room ther isn't anywhere up here that would accomodate any more people then what we had. and no the dnr doesn't require the approval but wouldn't it be nice if they would work with the local politicians and find a common ground? yes i do agree that not all of the trails are fit for atv's and i am not jeleous about the dnr getting decent equipment to do their job but some of that money could go towards building these bridges and shelters. north of here up at the dnr station there is a plot about 40 acres that the dnr seeds into corn for the deer in the wildlife refuge and they got a brand new front wheel assist ford new holland tractor probably about 145 horse thats just a lil overkill in my books.
Posted by: weez440
very well put DB if we could all just get along we could probably get this to work. i am willing to get my hands dirty on the weekends in the summer and help build trails and bridges so i can enjoy my sport i am not afraid of a lil dirt and work as are many many people out there and i respect the thoughts of the environmentalists cause i love the great outdoors to but we it takes a few groups that see vastly different viewpoints to work together for this to work and some of the hardcore environmentalists absolutely don't want any atv's at all they see them as evil but somehow we gotta work through that
Posted by: weez440
lol that was a good one honda and our whole lives don't revolve around high school hockey (go warriors)
Posted by: weez440
lol ok daty you know better then that, that is just all stereotypes i hate lutefisk but i do say nort (AND WE DON'T TALK LIKE THOSE PEOPLE DO IN THAT MOVIE FARGO) and you all know we get to much snow to shovel thats why we got the 4430 john deere with the 7 or 8 foot john deere snow blower
Posted by: weez440
come on DB ward has a southern accent lol and i get it from both sides a northern accent plus i talk like them darn canadians to i guess sometimes. i called highlifter which is out of louisianna or someplace south cause i got the module for my fourwheeler and it was faulty. first thing he asks me is if i am from canada my feelings were hurt. lol he had a much stronger accent then me though don't ya know.
Posted by: weez440
i guess i always will be a vikings fan but they frustrate me sooooo bad lol at least we beat the packers out of the playoffs this year that was good i work with a few packer fans and we are relentless. and you are right they are way overpayed to workout and travel and play a sport that is fun to play. is ward even driving this year? i guess i got tired of nascar it is to commercialized getting worse every year besides can't stand darrell waltrip i think in rl he is an arrogant butthole. and speaking of hockey the warroad warriors won state there record this year was 29-0-2 not bad for a town of 1800 people to have that kind of high school hockey team but then again what else are we gonna do in the winter?
Posted by: weez440
hey DB i am not much of a redskins or hogettes fan i guess you could say myself but i am a bronco's fan i mean who wasn't rooting for their quartback grrr can't remember his name. anyways who wasn't rooting for him to get the super bowl ring a couple years ago? i know i was. and it seems like alot of nascar drivers really are into hunting and fishing. i mean the REAL KING of nascar dale earnhardt was a very enthusiastic outdoorsman. and i always thought ward had an awesome accent he was a good clean racecar driver.
Posted by: weez440
well if he asks me to i will help him pack his bags and wish him a safe trip da he!! out of here. i think we are going to be way better off without him around. i like that how he mentioned something about disturbing recreation for bird watchers lmao every bird watcher i ever takled to gets back deep in the forrest by using atv's. and what does it have to do with hikers???? how is that interrupting their recreation? hiking is not what i would call something i have seen alot of people do around here anyways. what are they gonna do hike into the middle of a swamp and get lost?? doesn't sound like much fun to me. but you are probably right DB he will be the star witness for them environmentalists. so alas i say good riddence to him.
Posted by: weez440
you are correct DB 100 percent but i have seen alot of retired DNR personel write in opinion column's and actual DNR people writing columns and they all come accross as being environmentalists. granted not all of the dnr is bad and not all of them are environmentalists but the ones around here seem like super troopers my goodness they are patrolling the river in the dead middle of winter at 2 in the morning in a blizzard. (true account) in a way i do feel sorry for them but in other ways they have created all this themselves this has been building up for years. there was one retired dnr personel that wrote in the grand forks herald saying stuff like did arctic cat and polaris pay their employees to attend that meeting? grand forks is 2 hours from here stop trying to find the environmentalists in a different state in the city that doesn't even live here to fight their battles. if they got more to say maybe we shoudl have another meeting but this time make it on a friday night. and DB we are willing to work with them we have emphasised that so much through this whole thingbut i guess we will see what happens.
Posted by: weez440
goes to show you i guess that the politicians down in the cities have a different idea then the ones up here which brings up the same thing that we been saying for a long time what works down in the cities won't necessarily work up here. and well i heard on the radio today that the DNR managed to make alot more people P Oed there is a series of groomed snowmobile trails by the roseau warroad area where there have been i believe 6 cabins on for about 50 years. these cabins are ones people use to deer hunt out of and they lease the land from the dnr. they have to keep these cabins unlocked and anyone can stay or use them anytime of the year. you can go in them and they have journals where people sign that have been there and the date and it is amazing how many people stop there and cook food or maybe just rest for 15 min while out snowmobiling. well the dnr will be burning all these cabins down this summer for what reasons i do not know they didn't propose any problems they were actually a safety where if you had problems on snowmobile or got lost late you could crawl inside one of these cabins and start a fire and survive quite cozily. these cabins are very deep back in the woods and it is truely a shame they are burning them down. everytime i drive to our hunting land on snowmobile which is about 50 miles from here no major long trail ride i always find myself to be stopping at one of these cabins well i guess that won't happen anymore. so put yourself in our shoes DB, you are an intelligent person and you will realize why the dnr is very unliked in our neck of the woods.
