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Posted by: dual-sporter
it's not that easy...
you, and the rest of general public, wouldn't like to ride in a car with all that safety gear on and have to climb in & around a roll cage.
and whil i agree that the focus needs to be on what is really killing people every day, they pick the samller fights.... because if we don't start standing up for ourselves they will win.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: reconranger
That's right, that is the number of deaths on American highways every year. That averages out to 109 per day! If anyone was truly interested in public safety, that is where they would be putting their efforts. You hear all the fuss about ATV safety, firearms accidents, etc., but it all has a HIDDEN POLITICAL AGENDA! If these people really had the public welfare as their motive, they would be concentrating on that huge number.......40,000!
The most dangerous thing you will ever do is get into your car.
You need to look at this from a little more analytical viewpoint. Calculate the number of miles driven vs the number of fatalities - or the number of participants vs. deaths. You will find that the numbers start to change and take on a different perspective.
If the emergency rooms were not having to be staffed up to handle the increasing ATV injuries on weekends,
If the number of off-road rescue operations were not increasing
And if the riders with loud pipes and distructive anti-enviormental driving methods - didn't,
There would not be an issue.
Strap on the mud-zulla's, pull out the exhaust baffles and destroy every wet spot in the forest and I guarantee that the injury rates and fatalities will be used as but one more weapon to restrict ATV operations.
WE - all of us, those that turn our heads to the hooligans - and the hooligans themselves - are ruining the sport.
Instead of whining about it - do something about it.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Weez - Your self examination skills may not have developed to the point of being able to look over your shoulder and seeing the enemy behind you - but you can't throw logic out the window and say that because not everyone does this or that - that there is not a problem.
Logic 101 -
Logic is what allows us to distinguish correct reasoning from poor reasoning.
It is not a sterotype to say that women have babies because yes - women have babies
But It is poor reasoning to say that all women have babies
It is also poor reasoning to say that because some women dont have babies that there are no babies.
It is obvious that you are looking at this issue from either a "gifted" perspective where there is an inherent need for absolute precision in thought and language - also known as a "walking argument" or you are looking at this as a "critical thinker" who attempts to find fault with a persons position to deflect any consideration from the original argument. This is usaully done when you discover your position on the argument is not logical or accurate so a distraction is attempted.
All you have to do is look at the damage done. Anyone who has riden across the front lawn with earth scooping "mud runner" tires knows the difference the more aggressive tires have. In competitive events tread design can make a difference. But - do we need the most aggressive tires on the public trails and ditches? I say no. You need aggresive tread for the farm, Fine! Do you take them off when you ride the trails and ditches? I bet not.
And yes - everyone who mods their pipes so they can pretend to be faster or be "cooler" then the non-moded riders is another person immaturely taking away the future of the sport and is giving the anti-atv groups more reason and foothold to have us all banned. Unless you are in a comptetive event where every ounce of power is advantages - your just being a punk and a enemy to the rest of us with loud pipes
The logic for this is terribly simple - if we left no track or damage behind us - there wouldn't be any pictures or evidence to display on the house and senate projector. And if they could not hear us going past their houses or through the woods - there would be no tape recordings being played at the house and senate hearings.
The loud pipes and aggresive tread designs are the two leading factors in shuting down the ditches and other public riding areas. Those are the facts. Ask anyone at the DNR - they will tell you that if we ran turf friendly tires on public land and quieter exhuast - the anti-atv people would be dead in the water. All they would have left is that the machines "smell" and that would not receive headline attention.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: weez440
...(1) say a bunch of us are driving our atv's down a ditch and ditches do have watter and mud, i can easily idle through without spinning a tire ....(2) why should i ask any dnr about any of this???? as far as i have ever seen with my own 2 eyes they sure do their fair share of lying ....(3) and i am getting really sick and tired of your personal attacks on me i try to bite my tongue with you and try to stick to the subject and you keep on with this crap about me not being intelligent....(4) oh and about a ged before and stuff for future reference i did graduate on the honor roll in my high school and i didn't get where i am at today by being some idiot so why don't you for once stick to the damn issue
(1) Stay out of the ditches full of water and mud - you cant go through them without doing damage no matter what tires you have on your quad - Your being part of the problem - duh.
(2) I don't know anyone at the DNR who can keep his job or have the respect of his co-workers by being a liar. You might not agree with their findings or decisions - but that doesn't make them a liar. And - nobody is perfect. Errors happen. Want to correct it? - Point it out.
(3) Your sick of my personal attacks? Are you on dope?
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Originally posted by: weez440
....you are some dillhole that lives down in the cities....so go ahead pull your head out of your butt .....
(4) The following essay is attributed to the honor roll graduate -
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da heck with you and your political pro dnr rules datme you don't live up here you are some dillhole that lives down in the cities this stuff is going on up here right now and YOUR dnr is responsible for it go into land trail and environmental issues and see for yourself the crap that we are putting up with and you can see what 2 politician's put in the paper down there about the facts about how many atver's in minnesota actually did rip up private property the dnr tried saying it was around 2000 but that was total tickets given out and most of them was because they didn't have registration like i am about to do cause it gives money to a corrupt agency like the dnr there was like 2 people in minnesota last year that were in violation of that so go ahead pull your head out of your butt and if you are gonna argue with me about this just shut the hell up cause you don't have any idea what it going on
Personally I'm OK with letting the thread readers decide who the "dill hole" is and whom needs to extract their head from their rectum.
But thanks for playing.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: weez440
when i wrote that i was just sick of you and your crap just getting fed up with you and i am not saying the men and women that patrol are the ones that are lieing but the dnr does lie like every other organization that has anything to do with politics and the government when i brought up about the driving in the ditch i just used it as a reference to maybe let you open up your eyes so you can maybe see that bigger tires do mean better floatation so if there is a lil big of mud that we might not see until we are in there the bigger tires will allow us to tread more lightly. and how dare you ask me if i am on dope you don't know me and you have no right to make assumptions like that i never have and never will do any of that stuff and once again stick to the issue at hand
Whereas I have only responded to the missinformation and incorrrect allegations you have posted in this thread - I would say that I'm about 100% on top of the issues at hand herein as you have initiated them into the thread. Remember - if you bring it up - its fair game to be responded to.
But being an honor roll graduate you would already know the rules of debate - right?
So much for graduation standards.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
If memory servers me correctly - it is a commonly accepted value of about 70% of all serious accidents happen in the first year of ATV operation.
I can see that as the first year of any recreation has the most frequent participation level - couple that with lack of expereince and the increasing power and weight of these machines and its not to hard to see how the numbers keep rising.
Novice riders are the most at risk group - behind youthful operators under 16 who dominate something like 70% of the injuries.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: weez440
for once i can actually agree with you i just ask that personal attacks be left out.
Ditto
Posted by: TractorPacker
That can't be true, its those pesky All Terrain Vehicles that hurt people. The cars are fine.BR>
I would not have guessed 109 a day, though. That's alot.
Posted by: reconranger
That's right, that is the number of deaths on American highways every year. That averages out to 109 per day! If anyone was truly interested in public safety, that is where they would be putting their efforts. You hear all the fuss about ATV safety, firearms accidents, etc., but it all has a HIDDEN POLITICAL AGENDA! If these people really had the public welfare as their motive, they would be concentrating on that huge number.......40,000!
The most dangerous thing you will ever do is get into your car.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
OK, here comes the cavalry... I don't think anyone will argue that the number of accidents continues to be staggering. The reasons are many... some say it is just because there are so many being sold.. and that is partially true... I think everyone agrees there are more machines out there... but if considering it as a root cause.. no... Same goes for lack of training.. That one has a lot of merit.... but when combined with the first one.. now we start to see something a little clearer.
The problem is that only a percentage of manufacturers are voluntarily following the CPSC guidelines. Part and parcel in that is the focus on safety, and rider instruction. The REAL problem, and in my opinion, the root cause, is that the other manufacturers that have hit the streets with MUCH cheaper models, are not in any way concerned with safety, nor are the so called "dealers" selling them thinking that they will be in this business in a year or two. To them, it is a fast buck on the latest FAD rollercoaster of money. Parents are buying these machines like they shop for a gas grill or a dryer... they pays their money and walk out with a gleaming death trap.. totally unsuspecting and unaware that they may have just sealed their child's fate with the flick of their plastic. Little Johnny isn't afraid because mom and dad would never do anything to hurt them right? Huh, sad but true that too many of them don't live long enough to find out that moms and dads make mistakes too.
Until we force the safety issue and get the entire inidustry to focus in on safety and sell "proper training and responsible riding"... the numbers will not go down. And don't think for a moment that this isn't the key issue. To win this battle and have a sport in 5 years, we MUST lower those stats.
Now as for the tit for tat.. I have to agree with Whodat on this one.... I can't understand why the DNR is getting slammed when they are in fact working hard to keep things going... You might not agree with their politics, but they are the ones in the trenches fighting the environmental lobby right now... You might cut them some slack. Research is key.. and having the facts correct, and the players on the right sides is a start.
Whodat is like a kid who likes to rub a cat the wrong way... but if your goal is to piss off the cat and make him go away... well then, you have to admit he is successful... The neat thing about cats are they remember, and they get even... Ya gotta like a kid like that though.. reminds me of me...
Posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
dual is right. Comparing the "safety cage" of an automobile and a race car is an apples and oranges comparison. Race car chassis are designed for those 180+ MPH impacts with conrete retaining walls. Not sure you would be able to tell what an automobile was after it hit a concrete retaining wall at 180MPH. CART accidents look like these horific accidents when they happen. But the chassis is designed to blow off the body panels (it's actually obsorbing and then rejecting the energy from the crash) in an accident. All the while keeping the driver is relative safety. Generally, they might end up with broken legs, but that's about it. Though, there are deaths, and they happen.
Some people are dead set again wearing a helmet on an ATV, let alone a seat belt. I can hear the backlash now! How much is a Nomex driving suit?
Posted by: weez440
one problem i have always had is i am an enthusiastic nascar fan and i see these cars hit the wall at 180 + mph and those guys jump out without a scratch on them they have roll cages and protective seats and whatnot why don't they evolve all this safety stuff into our vehicles we drive to work????? hello automobile engineer retards wake up
Posted by: weez440
you know who not everyone that has mudzilla's and modded pipes go out and purposely wreck every bit of land cause they can it is just a stereotype that you have created in your own head i have more aggressive tires on my atv and that is basically for farm use
Posted by: weez440
my tires are by no means the most aggressive on the market for 1 but they do suit my purpose perfectly. ok with that out of the way say a bunch of us are driving our atv's down a ditch and ditches do have watter and mud, i can easily idle through without spinning a tire where these guys with stock tires will end up getting hung up and burried so big tires doesn't necessarily always mean that they are the worst addition you can put on an atv for the environment and why should i ask any dnr about any of this???? as far as i have ever seen with my own 2 eyes they sure do their fair share of lying and i am getting really sick and tired of your personal attacks on me i try to bite my tongue with you and try to stick to the subject and you keep on with this crap about me not being intelligent oh and about a ged before and stuff for future reference i did graduate on the honor roll in my high school and i didn't get where i am at today by being some idiot so why don't you for once stick to the damn issue
Posted by: weez440
when i wrote that i was just sick of you and your crap just getting fed up with you and i am not saying the men and women that patrol are the ones that are lieing but the dnr does lie like every other organization that has anything to do with politics and the government when i brought up about the driving in the ditch i just used it as a reference to maybe let you open up your eyes so you can maybe see that bigger tires do mean better floatation so if there is a lil big of mud that we might not see until we are in there the bigger tires will allow us to tread more lightly. and how dare you ask me if i am on dope you don't know me and you have no right to make assumptions like that i never have and never will do any of that stuff and once again stick to the issue at hand
Posted by: weez440
for once i can actually agree with you i just ask that personal attacks be left out.
Posted by: KegCan
Three weeks ago, CNN had this headline (ATV deaths are on the rise, 600 killed last year).I just stared at the screen in disbelief. They still treat 4wheelers like trikes. I bet 599 of them were doing stupid stuff, i know i do.
