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Posted by: sugarhead
sounds like a bunch of socialist propoganda bs to me......
Posted by: sugarhead
most people either dont seem to care about anything or they just continue to not get it.Im not only talking bout off roading but in every aspect of life as well.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Deeplaker60
"...It seemed to me that this is a temporary factor—that these retirees would be dying off in a relatively short time. The guru pointed out that this is the same generation that fills the staffs at colleges and universities, and they are turning out clones of themselves on an assembly line basis. These anti motorized recreation types are filling the staffs of state DNR&39;s and federal agencies."
Here's his reasoning in regards to his first statement:
http://www.academia.org/index.html
"...I asked what eventual outcome we could expect, hoping that he might have some counter measures to suggest. He looked at me and simply said, “Our grandchildren will not be snowmobiling on trails on public land.”
...and just ask a guy here in Michigan about the second.....a man who can't even so much as shame our state ridership into thinking beyond who is going to bring the 'weenies' to their next big "group ride" (which is all many bigger atv clubs up here want to be about....having fun! ).
If your society is producing citizenry that can't even hold the jockstrap of those that came before them (ie. the motorcyclists and snowmobilers)....who's going to step forward at the same age these heros are now and tell these kids....
"it's all shut down and (gosh) we don't know how in the heck all this happened!"
Why do you think I've been kicked off so many of these forums?.....because I've allowed these guys and gals to talk exclusively about "how cool the t-shirts and bumper stickers are going to look" or how wearing helmets and demanding basic safety measures in large riding areas like Windrock....actually doesn't make a difference?
MOST FOLKS DON'T CARE....THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE....AND THIS GUY IS JUST MAN ENOUGH TO PAINT A PICTURE OF THE FUTURE FOR THEM.
Thanks for relating the encounter; he's dead on.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Deeplaker60
"..He said that not enough young people are willing to take on leadership roles in motorized vehicle associations...ATV'ers really need to realize that if they want to establish and maintain trails on public land, they will have to do more than ride on them....
Great post and loved the summation (the sad part being that I've found they darn well DO realize this...yet exhibit absolutely NO shame in proceeding as they have been....).
Posted by: blackballed
...and this generation is evidently all about caring less one way or the other. BR>
I expect the younger people to not 'get it'......yet there are one heck of a lot of middle-age riders out there who have this "somebody OWES me something" attitude also.....and it's just sickening.
You have to remember, I've looked a lot of even these "involved" guys/gals straight in the eye for years up here in Michigan....and believe me......it didn't take long to figure out just what they were truly all about.(hardly a one of 'em would be a pimple on the arse of their predecessors in the cycle and sledding community who BUILT the very trails they ride today).
Posted by: blackballed
I'm in 100% agreement with your optimism dragginbutt....yet at the same time, I would have never guessed their were so many spineless, uninterested and just plain selfish members in any given off-road community. I observed the old-time sledders and motorcyclists....thinking there surely had to be "somebody" in this state who could at the very least carry their jockstrap.
I found one guy who manages to stand up and say "something" every 3 months in regards to atvs (and this in a state with 3,000 miles of trail system).
It has went beyond frustrating a long time ago.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...Don't think for moment that ATV enthusiasts don't care... for the most part, they just don't know how to take that next step... they just don't see a flag they can rally too.... Time for us to put the pole in the ground and say enough is enough.. time to stand and fight....."
Where is the ATVA?
Hiding behind the AMA and trying to tell me that MOST users are "hunters" who go 2-3 mph and don't need/want to wear helmets?
Turning a blind eye to places like Windrock where little kids are riding around doubled up without brain buckets?
Giving us some spineless petition to sign at the last CPSC hearing which spelled out absolutely NOTHING in regards to a specific stand on age/cc/heigth/weight issues; resulting in this: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:ZWHXO-FvjUcJ:es.bna.com/federal1/20050211/cpsc70p7247frnot20050211.html++2005+cpsc+atv&hl=en
Where is my local leadership here in Michigan?
Breaking their collarbone teaching youth atv safety classes?
Charging parents $25 to sit in on their kid's class?
Putting their 'family' in leadership positions within their club, refusing to hold elections, refusing admittance to their meetings for anybody with a contrary view....then running to our legislators and proclaiming themselves as THE voice of atving here in Michigan?
Where is our DNR?
Stringing the average citizen along for years as to their elibility to serve on advisory boards....then yanking that promised ability to do so at the very last minute?
Crawling so far up our own advisory board's butts that they won't even defend the average citizen's right to speak to them first?
Yanking our ability to even have the thoughts spoken to them (not back and forth with them, mind you) BE PROPERLY RECORDED ON THE PUBLIC RECORD as they have in the past?
When would you like me to stop?
I'll "stand up" all right....but darn if I'll stand next to somebody who doesn't have the balls to call these people for who they are and pull a cover off of what they have been pulling (I'm not spending "the next" 5 years handling these topics with kid gloves or ignoring these issues like all these riders born without a spine have been happy to do).
Posted by: blackballed
(lol)..I'd like to shake your hand also someday, my friend. You've really been a great voice over the years for our sport and my door is always open to you up here on the big lake. Come on up and we'll take care of everything/show you a good time.
You're right, you have to keep them in check (or at least thinking that somebody just "might" challenge their b.s.)
Posted by: Dragginbutt
It is easy for a single person to get discouraged and feel they can't do anything.. or nobody will listen to them, or nothing matters....
In reading the first note on this thread, it sounds like your friend has already given up here.... and nothing anyone can do will change things.
Nothing can be farther from the truth.. You have to ask yourself what can I do? I think just participating on lists like this, and hearing what others have to say is a start. Heck, we don't know each other.. probably never will meet face to face, but just knowing you are out there, and that you share some of the same concerns I have makes it better... maybe not a whole lot.. but it is a start.
Next I hear that people are starting to pay attention to what is being said and done, and they are soliciting opinions... soon they start asking for support... and getting it... All of a sudden, you hear that things are turning around in some places.... and maybe, just maybe you had something to do with that....
The deal is this.... By yourself, you are alone... but joining your voice to that of others.... makes you stronger, and your voice gets stronger too. Get out there and find people in your area that share teh same concerns, and work together to make a change. You never know how much a simple word can help until you put it out there and see where it leads you..... It has to start somewhere.. why not with you and me?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
As far as I go, I am mostly a pessimist... but... I work in Washington DC, and see how these things work... It all starts with an idea, and people getting together with like interests and opinions. Sooner or later, you get enough members together to be considered worthy of the politicians interest... and things get done. That is why the environmentalists are winning right now.. because they have the funding to buy the media.. and more importantly, buy.. er, sorry... control the legislation....
Don't think for moment that ATV enthusiasts don't care... for the most part, they just don't know how to take that next step... they just don't see a flag they can rally too.... Time for us to put the pole in the ground and say enough is enough.. time to stand and fight...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Blackballed, I'd like to shake your hand.... You remind me of me...... keep them in check...sooner or later they will listen... Do you feel like Don Quixote yet?
Posted by: weez440
this is to all the treehuggers who are looking at settling down and retiring WE DON'T WANT YOU GO TO FLORIDA TO DIE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE oh and my appologies to people in florida who are active atv riders but it doesn't appear that they are going after as much in florida yet (i guess i don't know i could be wrong)
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Here's One Outlook on Motorized Recreation from a well informed source. I just got back from a 3-day snowmobile trip, where I happened to meet a past president of the Association of Wisconsin Snowmobile Clubs. He is a guru of snowmobiling and has attended countless meetings with state and federal bureaucrats dealing with recreational uses of public land. Here&39;s what he sees happening in Northeastern Wisconsin.
Babyboomers are retiring, selling their homes in urban centers (mostly Chicago), and moving to the woods and lakes. Some of them are radical tree huggers, but many of them just don&39;t like motorized recreation. They are becoming a powerful political force. So far, they have been able to close some ATV trails on public land and take private land out of the snowmobile trail system. Their crowning achievement was a referendum to ban ATV&39;s in county forests in Vilas County Wisconsin. The measure passed by a three to one margin.
Snomobiles are seen as a less vulnerable target, but they&39;ll get around to them when they&39;ve eliminated ATV trails. They are also trying to close public campgrounds in national forests.
Several snowmobilers sitting around the table pointed out that motorized recreation gives a big economic boost to the area. We were told that these retired baby boomers could care less about making a buck off ATV&39;ers and snowmobilers. In fact, they&39;d rather see fewer tourists in THEIR woodland and lakeside hideaways.
It seemed to me that this is a temporary factor—that these retirees would be dying off in a relatively short time. The guru pointed out that this is the same generation that fills the staffs at colleges and universities, and they are turning out clones of themselves on an assembly line basis. These anti motorized recreation types are filling the staffs of state DNR&39;s and federal agencies.
I asked what eventual outcome we could expect, hoping that he might have some counter measures to suggest. He looked at me and simply said, “Our grandchildren will not be snowmobiling on trails on public land.”
Posted by: Deeplaker60
Yo Blackballed. I went to that link. I guess you were refering to that book mentioned there that is critical of our universities--"The graduation march has become an assembly line of raving liberals, mindlessly fulfilling the university's propaganda." Sounds like the snownmobile guru might have read that book.
He would also agree with you about people not caring enough to swing into action. He said that not enough young people are willing to take on leadership roles in motorized vehicle associations. About the only young people he sees at land use meetings are the type that are against snowmobiling, because they think trees are sleeping in the winter and the noise disturbs their sleep.
Ridiculous? Yes, but don't underestimate them. Right now, some college professor is probably concocting a study that will come to that conclusion.
ATV'ers really need to realize that if they want to establish and maintain trails on public land, they will hve to do more than ride on them.
Posted by: Deeplaker60
It may be that, but it is a big mistake to just keep dismissing it, rather than taking action to address and counter it.
