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Posted by: CTATV
Or you guys not on the cost have no concept of living in a state with 0 acres of state approved riding land yes 0. there is not a single square foot of public land thats actually legal to ride on in the entire state of CT. Im lucky enough to have friends with a lot of land and theres a big area of powerlines that are illegal to ride but the power company really doesnt care. they just have to put up signs for insurance purposes.
Posted by: CTATV
you should run for president with those political lines. Its great to talk all tall and mighty out there in michigan. I dont ride anywhere. I know plenty of places to ride where I am almost never bothered but they are all illegal just like they were illegal when you rode everywhere as a kid which at 19 im sure you still consiter me one. Im almost never bothered unless im on the road but every once and a while somebody decideds to put up a stink (not usually the owner of the property) and when that happens I am in the wrong and it makes for less enjoyable riding always looking over your shoulder until your deep into the woods. Always know there is a possibility they'll be blueberry cherries next to the truck when you emerge from the woods. theres no problems in the trails its really nosy neigbors at all the entrances who like to bother us because they think its their moral duity.
IBM owns almost 2000 acres in a town next to mine. They have like 30 year old no trespassing signs up at the entrance to a trail. An old lady was driving by and called the cops on me. The cops showed up and said, look we totally understand we'd leave you alone if we drove by ourselves but this crazy old lady took down your lisence plates and called it in so we have to tell you to leave. They even said IBM really doesnt care the signs are just to cover their butt. its 2000 acres of fields and woods with no construction on it and its next to an airport so noise is not a factor.
Perfect example of what im talking about. You have a base to stand on for your ATV activism out there. There is a unified CT group of ATVers and they have never been able to get more then private land to ride on that they all pitched in for. there is lesss and less open land in CT and no time in the ever future will any of it be put aside for ATVs. The few off road places that are put asside are for only dirtbikes and snowmobiles. We are supposed to register our ATVs for 30 dollars a year and you know what htey do with that money?? just put it into the general budget and 0% of it goes to any related off road things.
Be all high and mighty but I guarentee you if you were living here you would be riding the same places we do so dont be a hypocrit. And im not an a$$ when i get stopped. I've always been polite and just played dumb to the fact that it wasnt there. Most of the time after talking to people and them seeing im a polite young gentlemen just out to enjoy the country they leave me alone. Its easy for you to be so perfect when you have the chance to be but when your going to prep school 6 days a week, some of your friends dont have drivers lisences and nobody has the money to trailer up to masachusets on their one day to sleep in dont tell me you'd be princess twinkle toes and never bend a rule when you knew you really werent hurting or bothering anybody with common sense.
Posted by: CTATV
Quote
Originally posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: CTATV
".... I dont ride anywhere. I know plenty of places to ride where I am almost never bothered but they are all illegal...."
<STRONG>Again, I am sorry that there are only a few of us on here who won't allow you to state this and get away with it. We <EM>care</EM> about what our children read and do <EM>not</EM> want them emulating what you propose or think it's "cool". We don't <EM>care</EM> how far you have to trailer to ride....because YOU don't care about getting involved enough to impound the vehicles of people just like you. We immediately strike down what you say <EM>with</EM> prejudice and try to show you for just who you really are (and sorry if that wasn't as p.c. as your 21st century teachers might have 'put it' .
</STRONG>
How can you speak about being so true to the importance of self responsibility when you blaitently blame the public for problems in raising your children. Beyond obscine information, which everybody agrees has no place here, its YOUR responsibility as a parent to take care of your kids. If they see things or read things you dont want them to that is your fault not anybody elses. You cant expect others to nuture and raise your children thats your job. should we censor everything?? I guess you should have defected to communist russia. because they seem to have the same values. Censorship for all. Just because my opinion is different then yours gives you no right to deny it a place on these forms. Thats why we live in america. I can agree to disagree with you and thats as far as it can go because thank god your not making any laws here.
"...just like they were illegal when you rode everywhere as a kid which at 19 im sure you still consiter me one......"
<STRONG>You <EM>are</EM> a kid, my friend....because you still <EM>act</EM> like one. Being an adult has nothing to do with age....it is <EM>earned</EM> in (basically) how you teach others not to do the same things we all knew were wrong in the first place. Unfortunately, you were not even born when many of us were riding as you do; so you have little appreciation of how liberal the laws were at that time and what they afforded us. I am very sorry that this may not seem 'fair'....yet this is another concept that comes with maturity.</STRONG>
Yeah im still a kid and your right maturity has nothing to do with age you are a prime example. Enligten me where i whimpered about it being fair that one came out of your rear. Think I dont know life isnt fair? Your more then welcome to comment on anything I say but to make assumptions about who I am and deface me without a basis of fact is as immature as it comes. you might as well say your a doodoo head while your at it.
"...Im almost never bothered unless im on the road but every once and a while somebody decideds to put up a stink (not usually the owner of the property) and when that happens I am in the wrong and it makes for less enjoyable riding always looking over your shoulder until your deep into the woods....."
<STRONG>And isn't this what your liberal teachers have taught you? That YOUR experience is #1 (at the expense of modeling proper behavior or even obeying the law) and that if that experience isn't "enjoyable"...you have every right to simply do as you wish! Gosh, far be it for us "conservative" old folks to cause you to "look over your shoulder" whenever a pang of <EM>guilt</EM> might get in the way of your having fun!your way!</STRONG>
Now your babling on about liberalism and conservativeism. You make a lot of immature steriotypes of people as a whole. are you prejudice against the youth of america. If your socially concerned then I ask you what measures have you taken in your area to further expand the horizions of the teachers in your public school. How involved are you in the PTA or PTO of your district in what lesson plans are approved for your children. it looks like your making a bad example for the rest of the parents out there. Put your money where yur mouth is
"...theres no problems in the trails its really nosy neigbors at all the entrances who like to bother us because they think its their moral duity....."
<STRONG>Aaaahh....it's that outdated "moral" <EM>crap</EM> that really gets to you, doesn't it? I bet you've had enough public school deprogramming that this outdated concept is just about on the same level as modeling good behavior for others. Hey, at least you learned <EM>something</EM> in school!
I simply was speaking about ATV and land use and you have turned this into a person attack based on prejudice generaizations that are clearly an unwarented defimation of character. Not that I really care what you think of me I just think its important how childish these sarcastic statements about my inteligence are and how much they illistrate your own concept of age having no relation to maturity. Maybe you should criticize my spelling in your reply to this. Yes I will agree I cant spell excelently im sure there are typos in this response.
</STRONG>"
....IBM owns almost 2000 acres in a town next to mine. They have like 30 year old no trespassing signs up at the entrance to a trail. An old lady was driving by and called the cops on me. The cops showed up and said, look we totally understand we'd leave you alone if we drove by ourselves but this crazy old lady took down your lisence plates and called it in so we have to tell you to leave. They even said IBM really doesnt care the signs are just to cover their butt. its 2000 acres of fields and woods with no construction on it and its next to an airport so noise is not a factor...."
<STRONG>Do me a favor. Write IBM and get permission on paper. You are using people who have relationships to build within the community (cops) speaking for absent landowners that they have NO chance of knowing what their desires actually may be. Nice try....yet this still doesn't jive with what we all know to be true....written permission is the only "adult" way to behave and there <EM>is</EM> no substitute.</STRONG>
I already told you they arent going to get permission on paper. The world is full of dishonest people who take no responsibility for their actions and are sue happy make it harder for all of us. I never deny that im not doing somthing wrong. Ive been arrested on my dirtbike and I didnt get mad at the cop. I knew what I was doing was wrong and I gave him no trouble because he was doing his job. Because of these people who dont take personal responsibility and sue mcdonalds for making them fat or burning them with coffie (hmm coffie is supposed to be hot). IBM will never take that legal risk. Nobody really has a problem with it because if technically im knowingly breaking the law they take no chance of me being one of those sue happy people and taking from them moneys i dont deserve.
"...Perfect example of what im talking about. You have a base to stand on for your ATV activism out there....."
<STRONG>Another lesson that I'm going to give for free..what you <EM>start</EM> with in life has absolutely nothing to do with what you end up with through persistence and hard work. I realize that these public schools teach you that large numbers of people are destined to be poor, destitute and homeless no matter what my first sentance above implies. I'm here to tell you that the world isn't flat and that you don't fall off of it when you hit the CT state line. We travel many miles to do our riding and support clubs both in and out of state. Try and be the guy who <EM>starts</EM> something rather than the guy who never tried</STRONG>.
More sarcasm instead of an honest discution of opinions....I would be glad to be part of somthing pushing for better legislation but I honestly dont have the time at this point in my life nor do people take me seriously because of my age which will limit my finantial backing If I attempt to be proactive. On the same plane.. why are you complaining about the over liberal teachers and not doing anything about it. Be proactive. Hypocritic just like i stated before
"...There is a unified CT group of ATVers and they have never been able to get more then private land to ride on that they all pitched in for. there is lesss and less open land in CT and no time in the ever future will any of it be put aside for ATVs....."
<STRONG>Why don't you JOIN these guys and try to make a difference either in or out-state?</STRONG>
Because the club is full and closed to new members I already looked into it. And anytime I hear about any type of petition or anything I always do what I can. But in the meantime my youth and the point in my life when I have time to ride is withering away. easy for you to say we should sacrifice what you didnt have to.
"...the few off road places that are put asside are for only dirtbikes and snowmobiles. We are supposed to register our ATVs for 30 dollars a year and you know what htey do with that money?? just put it into the general budget and 0% of it goes to any related off road things...
<STRONG>We are fighting the same thing here in Michigan......have you been in contact with the people who care about these things, asked them what is being done about it and/or if you can help?</STRONG>
Answered that above [B/]
"...Be all high and mighty but I guarentee you if you were living here you would be riding the same places we do so dont be a hypocrit....."
<STRONG>I have the choice to ride wherever I want. There is plenty of farm country up here that i could violate on all day long and never probably even get 'caught'. What I choose to do is act like a man, not ruin things for others and lead by example for others somewhat younger than myself. I know, it's that stupid 'ol "morals" crap rearting its ugly head again.....maybe this concept really <EM>is</EM> only for us 'old fogies' after all.</STRONG>
you dont have to you have legal places to ride and dont turn this into a young verses old debate as we covered age has nothing to do with maturity
"...And im not an a$$ when i get stopped. I've always been polite and just played dumb to the fact that it wasnt there. Most of the time after talking to people and them seeing im a polite young gentlemen just out to enjoy the country they leave me alone...."
<STRONG>Whether you can play 'the game' has less to do with the fact that your using the term "most of the time" implies that you are continually getting caught and not getting punished. It is very easy to see why you (and many others who agree with you here) are so allied <EM>against</EM> increased penalties or impoundments. How could you afford it or what would you ride?</STRONG>
No its only a handfull of times i have had problems
"....Its easy for you to be so perfect when you have the chance to be but when your going to prep school 6 days a week, some of your friends dont have drivers lisences and nobody has the money to trailer up to masachusets on their one day to sleep in dont tell me you'd be princess twinkle toes and never bend a rule when you knew you really werent hurting or bothering anybody with common sense.
<STRONG>#1) If your friends don't have drivers licenses at <EM>18 or 19</EM>....it sounds like the atv community is needing needs some of this same legislation....
I was speaking of my entire teenage range of riding. When I was 16 my friends didnt have lisences and not all of them have a pickup truck or means to move their ATV even if they do because they cant afford it. Another personal attack insulting my inteligence too.
#2) "Not having money" simply means not doing what you want <EM>today</EM>....not going out and taking what you want from others that have worked for it (another subject I'm sure that your teachers passed on)....
and #3....you guys aren't "bending" any rules here....you're flat out thumbing your noses at them.
Sorry, but like your parents....us old farts can <EM>tell</EM> the difference. BR></STRONG>
Good luck in getting more involved instead of bitchin' (or I guess at somebody in your group getting their licenses back....).
Nobody lost their lisences you read into my comment wrong on that section so Im not going to destroy what you said because it could have been an honest misteak on either of our parts in not reading or clarifying that I was speaking over the years not in today only.
Oh yeah another generalization about age. I wasnt insulting you in my other response for consitering me a kid because I am and thats fine but maturity has nothing to do with being a kid or an adult by age requirements
Posted by: CTATV
Im not in total disagreement with things you guys said but you turned it into a personal attack on me and my generation. Were you not the same generation as all the liberal hippies. Its no different then me calling you a hippie because you were alive in the 60s. I highly doubt thats a title you would wear with pride...
oh yeah and that whole I didnt mention my kids thing ....
"I am sorry that there are only a few of us on here who won't allow you to state this and get away with it. We <EM>care</EM> about what our children read and do not want them emulating what you propose"
I'd say that is you talking about your children hence the OUR children. And maybe the reason there are so few of you is because not everybody agrees with you.
I do understand you wish to build a riding legacy in your area and all im saying is that there never will be a legacy because our state will never open riding lands and being such a small populated state theres less and less open land every day. Whether I may break a few laws I dont feel im doing anybody harm and im always polite and curtious to people because thats the type of person I am. I think when people come into contact with me on my ATV I am a perfectly fine embasador for the sport in CT. And i dont ride on privately held land without permission its land owned by corperations that are not using it so its not an individual's land.
Riding gas lines and power lines is common practice here. I know a man who works for North East Utilities and he informed me many of the guys like the fact that us riders keep the truck paths somewhat clear so they can get to the lines when they need to do work on them. The only times there is trouble is finding a place to park. once your on the lines nobody really cares.
Posted by: nickg
fyi, if you ride an atv in ny, it must be registered and insured. the penalty is loss of your drivers liscense!!!!(on the uninsured charge) check with the local police, they will definetly know. I ride in upstae and have been stopped several times and have no issues with it, i ride up in maybrook, making sure to stay legal and not in the stewart buffer land. they ride or walk up and check my papers and tel me to stay safe and have fun...they tow the uninsured/unregistered ones
Posted by: FifthHorseman
REgistration and insurance is required on all off road vehicles in New York.
Posted by: blackballed
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Originally posted by: Cheapass
Well, as long as you accept it was your own fault. Nows a good time to reconsider riding illegally and making the rest of us look bad, huh?
Must be that this 'concept' got lost in trying to figure out what LEO's "can and can't do" when you're out there breaking it.........
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: CTATV
"...and theres a big area of powerlines that are illegal to ride "but"....... the power company really doesnt care. they just have to put up signs for insurance purposes..."
I'm sure that many of you out there believe that the younger readers of this forum should 'raise themselves' and that role modeling (as some of our current sports stars have had no problem announcing publicly) is an "outdated concept that has absolutely no effect on others".
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THE ATV COMMUNITY ALLOWING THE MEMBERS (AND LEADERSHIP) IN IT TO TALK/ACT MORE "NON-CHALANTLY" EVERY DAY REGARDING THE VERY ISSUES WHICH ARE TEARING THAT SAME "COMMUNITY" APART.
Do all you guys act this way in front of your kids......or is this the reason why we have all these problems in the first place?
I rode wherever I darned well pleased when I was these kid's age and nobody DID care.....do these kids today think that we're all stupid enough to believe that this same attitude exists today...in the 21st century? We're (older riders) really sorry that some of you missed out on the "golden age" of off-roading; yet you have a chance TODAY to affect this sport in a way that we (frankly) never took advantage of.
It's called "building a legacy through example" and I think there's enough of us older riders out here that would be darn proud to stand beside any one of you to finally accomplish what (many of us) so long took for granted.
Let's nip this trespassing talk 'in the bud' on these forums and start standing up like true men and women concerning the issues which face us.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: TomTom2"...I rode a bike for years without a problem, quads came along and screwed everthing up..."
Sorry, but I disagree...people screwed everything up and many of them were close acquaintances of the very same community members who were at that very same location abiding by the rules. It is these people who are ruining our sport today. NOT the people you mention in the balance of your reply ("(violators) will always ride wether the place is legal or not...does not matter.")...but the balance of our community who don't have the guts to call a spade a spade when they witness it or have knowledge that these events are occuring.
It's not irresponsible riders that we (as a community) have a problem with...it's an unwillingness among the rest of us to shame those same people right on out of the sport.
"Oh my, 'we' can't take a stand...we might hurt someone's feelings or they might not send in the membership dues which keep my non-profit afloat and these written-off weekends on the trail or at some off-road 'seminar' a perpetual reality!"
or:
"I'm not going to say anything about Billy Bob's kids not wearing helmets and doubled up....we've got a weenie roast together out at Windrock this Saturday!"
or:
"We're going to ignore those signs that the power company only puts up for insurance purposes....you know who we are, where we'll be and when...DON'T call the law!"
Don't blame the idiots who will always be a fact of life......take a hard look at the people who witness it happening right in front of them (see Windrock and the fact that everybody in this country knows what's going on there) yet don't have the kahunas to make this community a legitimate one in the first place.
I'm sorry, but I simply won't stand next to someone who won't say what I've said above, mean it and look these leaders straight in the eye (and in public) when they do. The time has long since past for being "politically correct" regarding any of this.
Posted by: blackballed
Here's a quick example:
Not very long ago, our "leader" in all things off-road declared that all groups involved in orv issues (cyclists, qauds, full-size four wheel drives, sleds, etc.) would form a group to bring issues to our DNR as one and that finally some of the things I had been hollering about for years (to no avail) would come to fruition. A new atv group selected their president and one of their board members to serve on this 'new' group's board and the "united" representation even took an official sounding name.
Do you think anybody in that atv club even so much as asked what their president/board member were doing in regards to their responsibility of representing every atver in the state?
Did anybody from this new group even show up when our ground-breaking 25 year orv update plan was brought forward for comment?
Do you think you can find even any record of this group's existence today?
And when this group "fizzled" out of existsence with absolutely no explanation whatsoever....DO YOU THINK ANYBODY ASKED "WHY" OR EVEN SO MUCH AS CARED???
Why.....no!!!!
Weenie roasts and "group rides" have replaced the WORK of being involved politically with off-road isuues....and I don't see it changing (here in Michigan, at least) one bit. in the near future
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: CTATV
you should run for president with those political lines. Its great to talk all tall and mighty out there in michigan.
Believe me, my friend...all that I've said above is so close to the truth that I couldn't get elected anywhere in the 'atv' community; let alone politics.By the way, we just might be tall and mighty out here in Michigan with over 3,000 miles of trails....we just don't have the kind of light 4-wheeled ridership who are interested in building the type of political legacy which might support it.
".... I dont ride anywhere. I know plenty of places to ride where I am almost never bothered but they are all illegal...."
Again, I am sorry that there are only a few of us on here who won't allow you to state this and get away with it. We care about what our children read and do not want them emulating what you propose or think it's "cool". We don't care how far you have to trailer to ride....because YOU don't care about getting involved enough to impound the vehicles of people just like you. We immediately strike down what you say with prejudice and try to show you for just who you really are (and sorry if that wasn't as p.c. as your 21st century teachers might have 'put it' .
"...just like they were illegal when you rode everywhere as a kid which at 19 im sure you still consiter me one......"
You are a kid, my friend....because you still act like one. Being an adult has nothing to do with age....it is earned in (basically) how you teach others not to do the same things we all knew were wrong in the first place. Unfortunately, you were not even born when many of us were riding as you do; so you have little appreciation of how liberal the laws were at that time and what they afforded us. I am very sorry that this may not seem 'fair'....yet this is another concept that comes with maturity.
"...Im almost never bothered unless im on the road but every once and a while somebody decideds to put up a stink (not usually the owner of the property) and when that happens I am in the wrong and it makes for less enjoyable riding always looking over your shoulder until your deep into the woods....."
And isn't this what your liberal teachers have taught you? That YOUR experience is #1 (at the expense of modeling proper behavior or even obeying the law) and that if that experience isn't "enjoyable"...you have every right to simply do as you wish! Gosh, far be it for us "conservative" old folks to cause you to "look over your shoulder" whenever a pang of guilt might get in the way of your having fun!your way!
"...theres no problems in the trails its really nosy neigbors at all the entrances who like to bother us because they think its their moral duity....."
Aaaahh....it's that outdated "moral" crap that really gets to you, doesn't it? I bet you've had enough public school deprogramming that this outdated concept is just about on the same level as modeling good behavior for others. Hey, at least you learned something in school!
"....IBM owns almost 2000 acres in a town next to mine. They have like 30 year old no trespassing signs up at the entrance to a trail. An old lady was driving by and called the cops on me. The cops showed up and said, look we totally understand we'd leave you alone if we drove by ourselves but this crazy old lady took down your lisence plates and called it in so we have to tell you to leave. They even said IBM really doesnt care the signs are just to cover their butt. its 2000 acres of fields and woods with no construction on it and its next to an airport so noise is not a factor...."
Do me a favor. Write IBM and get permission on paper. You are using people who have relationships to build within the community (cops) speaking for absent landowners that they have NO chance of knowing what their desires actually may be. Nice try....yet this still doesn't jive with what we all know to be true....written permission is the only "adult" way to behave and there is no substitute.
"...Perfect example of what im talking about. You have a base to stand on for your ATV activism out there....."
Another lesson that I'm going to give for free..what you start with in life has absolutely nothing to do with what you end up with through persistence and hard work. I realize that these public schools teach you that large numbers of people are destined to be poor, destitute and homeless no matter what my first sentance above implies. I'm here to tell you that the world isn't flat and that you don't fall off of it when you hit the CT state line. We travel many miles to do our riding and support clubs both in and out of state. Try and be the guy who starts something rather than the guy who never tried.
"...There is a unified CT group of ATVers and they have never been able to get more then private land to ride on that they all pitched in for. there is lesss and less open land in CT and no time in the ever future will any of it be put aside for ATVs....."
Why don't you JOIN these guys and try to make a difference either in or out-state?
"...the few off road places that are put asside are for only dirtbikes and snowmobiles. We are supposed to register our ATVs for 30 dollars a year and you know what htey do with that money?? just put it into the general budget and 0% of it goes to any related off road things...
We are fighting the same thing here in Michigan......have you been in contact with the people who care about these things, asked them what is being done about it and/or if you can help?
"...Be all high and mighty but I guarentee you if you were living here you would be riding the same places we do so dont be a hypocrit....."
I have the choice to ride wherever I want. There is plenty of farm country up here that i could violate on all day long and never probably even get 'caught'. What I choose to do is act like a man, not ruin things for others and lead by example for others somewhat younger than myself. I know, it's that stupid 'ol "morals" crap rearting its ugly head again.....maybe this concept really is only for us 'old fogies' after all.
"...And im not an a$$ when i get stopped. I've always been polite and just played dumb to the fact that it wasnt there. Most of the time after talking to people and them seeing im a polite young gentlemen just out to enjoy the country they leave me alone...."
Whether you can play 'the game' has less to do with the fact that your using the term "most of the time" implies that you are continually getting caught and not getting punished. It is very easy to see why you (and many others who agree with you here) are so allied against increased penalties or impoundments. How could you afford it or what would you ride?
"....Its easy for you to be so perfect when you have the chance to be but when your going to prep school 6 days a week, some of your friends dont have drivers lisences and nobody has the money to trailer up to masachusets on their one day to sleep in dont tell me you'd be princess twinkle toes and never bend a rule when you knew you really werent hurting or bothering anybody with common sense.
#1) If your friends don't have drivers licenses at 18 or 19....it sounds like the atv community needs some of this same legislation....
#2) "Not having money" simply means not doing what you want today....not going out and taking what you want from others that have worked for it (another subject I'm sure that your teachers passed on) is a conservative ideal that (in your defense) I'm sure was never preached to you in grade school....
and #3....you guys aren't "bending" any rules here....you're flat out thumbing your noses at them.
Sorry, but like your parents....us old farts can tell the difference. BR>
Good luck in getting more involved instead of bitchin' (or I guess at somebody in your group getting their licenses back....).
Posted by: blackballed
Originally posted by:CTATV:
"...How can you speak about being so true to the importance of self responsibility when you blaitently blame the public for problems in raising your children...."
I never mention "my" children or blamed the public about anything.
"...Beyond obscine information, which everybody agrees has no place here, its YOUR responsibility as a parent to take care of your kids...."
I have no idea what "obscene information" refers to nor (again) did I ever refer to raising anybody's kids
"...If they see things or read things you dont want them to that is your fault not anybody elses. You cant expect others to nuture and raise your children thats your job. should we censor everything??..."
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about in reference to my comments; nor can I see where "censorship" has absolutely anything to do with what we are talking about.
"..;.I guess you should have defected to communist russia. because they seem to have the same values. Censorship for all. Just because my opinion is different then yours gives you no right to deny it a place on these forms..."
If crying "censorship" is the best defense you have here....."
"...Thats why we live in america. I can agree to disagree with you and thats as far as it can go because thank god your not making any laws here..."
That is NOT as "far as it can go". Let me give you a little lesson which goes beyond your liberal indoctrination. FACTS are what fuel a good debate....not "feelings" or perceived "rights" nor any foul cries of censorship or discrimination. These are liberal strategies designed to turn attention away from said facts and won't be tolerated here.
"...Yeah im still a kid and your right maturity has nothing to do with age you are a prime example. Enligten me where i whimpered about it being fair that one came out of your rear....."
You seem to think that because us older riders enjoyed access laws which were definitely more permissive in nature, you should to. Thus my reference to "fairness".
"...Think I dont know life isnt fair? Your more then welcome to comment on anything I say but to make assumptions about who I am and deface me without a basis of fact is as immature as it comes. you might as well say your a doodoo head while your at it..."
Again, I am just relating some facts to you that you are obviously unaware of. I am not spoon feeding them to you...you're 19 and I think you can handle them.
"...Now your babling on about liberalism and conservativeism. You make a lot of immature steriotypes of people as a whole. are you prejudice against the youth of america..."
No prejudices here; just a simple talk about those "moral values" you so disgustingly dismissed that old lady for having and obviously something you were taught to resist at every turn.
"....If your socially concerned then I ask you what measures have you taken in your area to further expand the horizions of the teachers in your public school. How involved are you in the PTA or PTO of your district in what lesson plans are approved for your children. it looks like your making a bad example for the rest of the parents out there. Put your money where yur mouth is"
I've discussed this with my wife and find that tackling this MAJOR problem is somewhat like becoming frustrated with off-road subject matter. You can fight it 'alone'; yet you must always seek others in the community who you can actually be proud to stand beside (which is a lot harder than one might think). I support conservative projects in my school system and what the church does with our youth within the community and at school. As in the off-road community, we need more people out there willing to take a stand on this subject; as there are very few within any community who want to be viewed as responsible for kicking 'teachers' out of the school system (I could care less). http://www.academia.org/index.html
"...I simply was speaking about ATV and land use and you have turned this into a person attack based on prejudice generaizations that are clearly an unwarented defimation of character. Not that I really care what you think of me I just think its important how childish these sarcastic statements about my inteligence are and how much they illistrate your own concept of age having no relation to maturity. Maybe you should criticize my spelling in your reply to this. Yes I will agree I cant spell excelently im sure there are typos in this response......"
The problem is that you are not referring to "atv and land use" in an intelligent manner which others can agree with or emulate. It's as simple as that and you shouldn't take it personally....unless you still insist on defending that position.
"...I already told you they arent going to get permission on paper....."
Then you can't ride there, my friend!Do I have to explain the same LAWS you already know "ver batim" in your heart?
"...The world is full of dishonest people who take no responsibility for their actions and are sue happy make it harder for all of us...."
***News Flash***:
There are a lot of people who take absolutely no responsibility for their actions; yet don't 'sue' anyone.....YOU ARE ONE OF THEM !!!!
"...I never deny that im not doing somthing wrong. Ive been arrested on my dirtbike and I didnt get mad at the cop. I knew what I was doing was wrong and I gave him no trouble because he was doing his job...."
(lol)!!!!
Is this the "new-age" way of justifying your actions? Every time you get caught at something (right up to the time they put you in jail)...you don't get "mad" at the leo officer making the arrest....and in doing so, this makes one less accountable for the act itself !!! What a concept!!! Be "forgiving" of those upholding the law.....yet refuse to abide by the law itself!
"....Because of these people who dont take personal responsibility and sue mcdonalds for making them fat or burning them with coffie (hmm coffie is supposed to be hot). IBM will never take that legal risk....."
So there is a legal risk involved for the landowner...yet you feel that they should know throgh "osmosis" that you will not sue them...yet everyone else just "might"....(and if that does happen...."who cares"....as IBM is just another greedy corporation that your teachers have taught you to despise anyways).
"...Nobody really has a problem with it because if technically im knowingly breaking the law they take no chance of me being one of those sue happy people and taking from them moneys i dont deserve..."
(lol!!!) It is freaking unbelievable how you young people have been taught to somehow "justify" whatever action suits you! By god, I think I'll just ride wherever I see fit!. Signs, permission, or not...it's all about being "nice" to the cops if i get caught and simply not suing the landowner if I get hurt!!! What a deal!!!
"...More sarcasm instead of an honest discution of opinions..."
My friend, you don't even get the point here that good sarcasm is completely 'lost' on you anyways!.
"...I would be glad to be part of somthing pushing for better legislation but I honestly dont have the time at this point in my life nor do people take me seriously because of my age which will limit my finantial backing If I attempt to be proactive..."
Heeeere we go.
No time....no money....no advanced age. If I have to shoot down each of these arguments individually...we'll be here all day. I'm just going to chalk this one down to the naieveness of youth and give it to you (must be that what Dragginbut has said above has absolutely no effect on you, obviously).
"... On the same plane.. why are you complaining about the over liberal teachers and not doing anything about it. Be proactive. Hypocritic just like i stated before".
You can try and change the subject....I just won't let you. I could list all the manners in which i have supported this sport these past 6 years including youth atv safety training, more club memberships than I can count, wasting time on the internet trying to educate guys like yourself, attending meetings in the state capitol, etc.; etc.
Yeah, I'm a "hypocrite".....and darn proud of it. BR>
"....Because the club is full and closed to new members I already looked into it. And anytime I hear about any type of petition or anything I always do what I can. But in the meantime my youth and the point in my life when I have time to ride is withering away...."
LOL!!!!!
Did you just see "Easy Rider" or was it "Lost in America"?
"...easy for you to say we should sacrifice what you didnt have to...."
You complain that I don't appreciate that you appreciate that life isn't "fair"....then slide right back into crying about it ! Make up your mind, my friend ! (lol) Sorry, but I'll have to continue my response to this some other time. Hey, it's been a great window into the mind of today's youth, if nothing else!!! (or do other riders this guy's age feel differently?).
Posted by: blackballed
(refferencing dragginbutt's comment above):
Per 'usual'...one of the most eloquent and well thought out summaries regarding this subject which has ever been written. If you can't bear to hear it from me...please listen to somebody that you "can't" argue with. Many of us older riders care very little for what happens in our lifetimes at this point in our lives..yet care very much that we at least tried to bring forward a new generation of informed community members who might carry the same torch.
I'm attracted to this sport because I think it affords an opportunity for families to discover a common interest; gets MORE people exposed to the outdoor experience like never before (young/old/disabled) and that it forcibly unifies environmental concerns with the needs of the populace as a whole (ideally).
To summarize....there are a number of us out here who simply feel that building a riding legacy for our grandchildren is a lot more important than waitng for others to gain that same appreciation (which we've been doing since the 80's).
The time is now for this community to either gain some appreciation for what is happening around them or to start being divided into those who care and those who don't. There is far to much at stake to proceed in any other manner and especially when "holding hands" has produced absolutely NO results thus far.
Posted by: blackballed
I want to apoligize if what I've brought forward here prevents another common trespasser from turning over a new leaf (I have seen no evidence of such, yet I'm offering the benefit of the doubt). Yet when simple facts are laid out in no uncertain terms and I still get back how "even the power people love me for keeping their trails up".....you get the feeling that a lot of these kids really DO believe it is their god-given right to ignore signs and/or forego the act of obtaining written permission.
I've asked for other younger riders to step right up here and give "their" take on this simple scenario involving right and wrong....yet not a one of them seems willing to stand up to this guy any more than when they witness their own buddies stray off trail and follow them!.
I'm sorry, but if the concept of 'guilt' or 'shame' doesn't move these kids (and many adults) in any way, shape or form....what's next?
My solution is the kind of heavy fines and impoundments which bring in the needed revenue to not only fix what they destroy (and don't think that the government isn't way ahead of me on this)....but to get the word-of-mouth out there that "punks don't prosper". BR>
This is my opinion and my opinion only. I'm just sick of these forums being occupied by riders within the community who darn well influence the younger members in it with their illegal exploits....and sicker yet that too many others within the community don't have the guts to call them on it.
What a mess.
Posted by: blackballed
....and the atvconnection 'family' simply nods in agreement....BR>
I'm sorry, but it isn't the difference between right and wrong which has went by the wayside....it's the past, present and future parents on here who could give a crap less who teachs it and how.
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...I constantly hear from the younger generation that they want us older folks to listen to them... well they need to make sure of the message they wish to share before they earn our trust and their right to be heard...."
Priceless...BR>
Posted by: blackballed
Quote
Originally posted by: GLAE874
"...On Long Island there is no legal place to ride so people ride illegally. They formed a Task Force to investigate illegal ridding and whether or not a legal place would help stop the illegal ridding. The anti's attitude is if they are breaking the law now, why would they stop ridding illegally if they made a park? There argument is very good. Everybody on Long Island who owns off road vehicles knows they can only be ridden on private property so its hard to convince people that only 1% of the owners ride illegally when most do. ***If we cant police ourselves*** we will never show the public we can be trusted...."
Which leads to 'my' argument that the community has absolutely no intention of ever policing itself, needs to be divided into those who do and don't respect individual property rights......then even further subdivided into those whithin the community willing to stand up for close relationships with law enforcement, high fining impoundments and even stupid time-wasters like helmets and general safety.
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stand up in front of anyone who's anybody and next to some goof who doesn't agree with this while calling myself an "atv enthusiast". It's all about the company you keep and is exactly why these organizations like the AMA have been trying to brush this 'association' problem under the rug from day one (which you can do if one simply never calls a spade....a spade).
Posted by: Dragginbutt
CTATV, I fully appreciate your argument, and am glad it was presented in a mature and respectful manner. I believe it represents the riding situation across the nation. The issue is not with the law enforcement community... or the land owners. It relaly comes down to the rights of people or business to control their own property rights, and some of our riding brethren who would violate those rights.
You indicate that IBM doesn't really care if you ride there or not... Has anyone approached them with a plan other than hey can I ride on your land? You have to realize there are legal issues and exposure they would endure if they said yes to every kid who came along... but if you approached it from a club persepctive.. and promised to maintain the property, and cover the insurance etc to relieve their liability.. you might stand a much better chance. PLUS, they would be assured that club members would police themselves.
Of course you would get the "TRESSPASSER type who would ride the area because they saw others doing it.. Well I say they deserve to lose their ATV. I COMMEND THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER FOR DOING HIS JOB! Maybe this will get junior lawbreaker's attention. IT is obvious that he didn't take two minutes to research the local and state laws.. and when he got caught, he squeals like a frightened pig. UNFAIR...
I hope he loses his driver's license. Maybe then he will learn a very good lesson in life that in a society with laws, he doesn't get a choice on which one's he agrees with or not. If you do th ecrime, you have to be willing to accept the consequences.
We all complain about lack of legal riding areas... well here is a good example of why that happens... And when you choose not to register your machine.. you rob the state of needed funds that go to maintaining, and building new trails.
If you disagree with what is going on locally... get involved as an advocate of change and work WITHIN the system to make it happen. God knows the local DNR would appreciate the help. The system works... it may not get immediate results, but it works all the same.
There is a lot of truth in what Blackballed is saying about as a group we don't take enough action to police ourselves. And it is generally a fact that for years we have been complaining about parental responsibilities in instructing our youths on proper respect for others and laws. This case is a classic example of that.... Those of us that have a little more gray hair on our head these days grew up in a time when respect and honor were the two things that defined a man.
I don't know what the current times would say about that.. but it appears to me to be a whatever you can get away with attitude that prevails with this generation.
ATV riding is not a right folks.. it is a priviledge that is granted.. and with it, there are certain expectations of responsible action. Step outside those boundaries, and you lose my sympathy.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
This tet for tat has been interesting... and relates back to the age old conflict between one generation and another. I think it necessary to explain that we old farts know from where you are coming from.. we were kids once.. and thought and acted like a kid. We had our run ins with the law enforcement over things we did. We know the feeling of freedom you get when riding, and the pull of the wild side that it represents. But you also have to understand that we grew up in an entirely different environment.
We didn't have to worry about environmental damage we did. We didn't worry about the bad press it generated, and we didn't have ultra conservative focus groups trying to eliminate something we all loved... these are all symptoms of today and it is going to be your generation that has to deal with it.
One thing that seperates our generation from today's is the respect for and recognition of the limitations placed on a modern society. Be they in regulations, laws etc... I think our generation is a little more mindful of their intent, reasons for their existance, and we do not exude the same propencity towards being selective in which ones we will abide by if it suits our needs, but that is just my humble opinion. Sure, you can find examples of both sides acting out... and when they do, it is our responsibility to take action to curb this activity. You may not agree with Blackballed's approach, as it may come on far too strong for many people, but teh underlying message is relevant, and accurate. In gentler terms, he is saying that as enthusiasts, we need to stop turning our visage away, and support those efforts that are eliminating the bad elements. Not too many people will stand up and lend their voice to this cause. I see this as passion...
The "rules" we all refer to are nothing more than common sense and form a framework from which states have elected to use as a model.
This isn't a situation where just because of your financial status, you don't have to abide by them... The laws apply to everyone. I cannot agree with the premise, so I dismiss the argument. I am glad to hear that you have taken a personal stand and decided to get involved with the local issues. We need more people like you. What we don't need are the ones that feel they don't need to worry about what effect their actions have on our sport as a whole.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
CT, I can't see where disagreeing with a person's opinion becomes a personal attack... I at least didn't mean it as such. Most of the other rantings were originally stated as a missive on the current state of our sport, and not directed at you personally. I think you may have taken it a little too personal and then it sort of spiralled out of control.
I can see that you are defending your generation.. that is OK. I can respect that.. but please note the difference in outlooks that have been presented here. BBalled and me are focused on the bigger issues.. while I get the impression that you are only looking at your personal take on the subject. And that is OK. The important thing is you stood up and made your voice heard. But don't take on a fight that really wasn't there in the beginning.
We can argue this until we run out of air to breath..... nothing will change our outlook that there needs to be more self dicipline and responsibility exuded by ALL generations. Yours is not under attack. In fact if you look at this from a different perspective, our comments have recruited another voice to join the fight. By adding your voice to the discussion, our box is expanded.
The real challenge is for people like yourself to take that same passion and defensive posture, and turn it into something positive. It sounds like you are doing that. Have you ever recruited your buddies to help join their voices to the fight? Have you ever applied peer pressure to make a change... it is exactly what BBalled was advocating.. only his wording was a little different.
We need you and everyone else to get passionate about this sport. We need you to reach a point where you are ready and able to say enough is enough and take personal action... Because like BBalled said, if you do not.. if your peers do not....the generations that come after you are going to suffer greatly... This is YOUR fight. and our legacy to you.
I just wantd to add on the IBM deal. They are a major corporation that have workers that live in the community. In short, they want to be good citzens and neighbors too. Did you know that there are several programs available that could prove useful in convincing IBM to join with the state in creation of a riding area? There may be a way for the state to assume the liability while working in partnership with IBM. It is worth looking into.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
You know, it is hard not to make this into a generational thing after reading a response like the one above, but this blatent disregard for everyone and everything other than their own personal gratification is just plain wrong. To sit here and talk about running from the cops when you admittedly know that what you are doing is wrong is stupid. Not only are you putting yourself in danger, you endanger others in the process. That I cannot support under any circumstances.
Clearly someone is either expertly pushing our buttons, or missing the point. Irresponsible behavior is no longer tolerable. It doesn't make any difference if you are 18 or 80. Acting out is bad for our sport, and we don't need it.. want it, nor will we continue to tolerate it. Anyone who does, needs to take up golf.
The problem is that persons like me are wracking our brains for ways to gently state that you are an idiot and we would all wish you would go away and take your attitude somewhere else, but sometimes I just have to give up and get nasty. BBALLED is right... when being nice doesn't work, it is time to close the door in your face. I hope you end up getting caught, so that the rest of us can continue to move forward in a constructive manner.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
This illustrates my point completely.... and then they complain about losing riding areas.... and how the authorities are using strong arm tactics etc...
We all grow up someday I guess... Frankly, I am concerned that there won't be a sport in a few years to pass down to my grand kids if we don't manage to police ourselves and rein in these hooligans.
This scenario is playing out in many areas of the country right now. I hope there are enough of us that will stand up and take direct action to save what little we have left. The sad thing is that by acting responsibly, and joining their young voices to the cause.. they could become a potent and credable voice in the debate... but this sort of activity just undermines years of work in about 30 seconds.
I constantly hear from the younger generation that they want us older folks to listen to them... well they need to make sure of the message they wish to share before they earn our trust and their right to be heard. Being a lawbreaker, and putting others in danger, or violating the property rights of others in their quest for instant gratification is nothing to aspire to in my book.
Figure it out soon youngins .. or you won't have to worry about riding your ATV anywhere... because they will be banned. I've lived through this once already... what makes you think it can't happen again?
I'd much rather sit beside you as alies at the negotiation table than to have to point fingers at you as the bad example... Together we could attain so much more...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
CTATV... I think you are missing the message... First off, Many of us live in areas where we have to travel several hours to ride our machines. That does not make it OK to just go looking for land to ride on. If you have ever sat down with landowners and listened to the horror stories they can tell about fences being cut, newly seeded fields being destroyed, lawsuits that have been brought by tresspassers when they get hurt on their land, not to mention harrassment of livestock etc... then you would get some sense of why there are no riding areas to speak of in NY. Your local trail authority has to go to those same people and ask them kindly to consider allowing them to build a trail accross their land holdings. Now, yes of course, the insurance laibility is assumed by the state... but the fact remains, the bad blood that has gone on for years is hard to get past.
None of this makes a hill of beans when you look at the legal issues of riding, and in some cases running from law enforcement. That little old lady you talk about is a resident too... and she deserves her opinion. Right now, she is playing good citizen and is on the right side of the law. We as an organization MUST take a stand and be committed to upholding the law, and preaching responsible and legal riding. There can be NO COMPROMISE on that stand. Sure we hate it... Sure it is not the optimal situation... but if we are going to have any credability when we go before legislators and government agencies, we must have a clean house and a firm foundation that understands the law, and right from wrong. Illegal riding, is WRONG period. It has nothing to do with how much pocket change I have or don't have. I earned it young man... HONESTLY, and I am not going to apoligize for that fact. Nor am I going to show you any sympathy for your whining, and I WILL support the local law enforcement who is tasked with impounding your machine. Because if we lose one bad apple, the sport is all the more stronger for it...
I feel this way for all unethical riding. and riders... It doesn't matter if they are young or old... we cannot tolerate irresponsible riders any longer... no matter what the circumstances may be. If you truely love this sport... you would find a way to work within the system and make a difference.
Remember personal credability begins and ends with you...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
The above is happening all across the country. It makes a person want to throw up... Why are we fighting so darn hard to ensure that our grandkids have a sport to enjoy when we have stuff like this going on? It makes no sense.
For one thing, I do not represent the hooligans.. and I do not think most ATV enthusiasts would knowingly follow this destruction creed... and I do take offense to be included in the group by the media trying to say that all ATV enthusiasts are hooligans... but it becomes harder and harder to convince the non riding public (I.E. the LANDOWNERS) that we want to be their friends.... and can be trusted...
Maybe we need to take things into our own hands.... the Minitemen in AZ are now watcing our borders and protecting them from illegal entry... maybe we can start doing the same and start policing our own. WE as responsible riders must take the initiative. We can't leave it up to the authorities any longer. I am not talking being a vigilanty, but we can help direct law enforcement to those that are breaking th elaw, and assist them in getting rid of the bad elements.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yo dude... did it just go in one ear and out the other? Hopefully you wear a helmet so the message at least may be slowed down a little...
I applaud NY taking the lead on impounding machines. Hopefully, some day someone will wake up to the fact that riding is a priviledge, not a "RIGHT"....
Posted by: TomTom2
Anybody else get impounded in Suffolk this past weekend? I got bagged out east on my quad with my buddy. Five tickets and an impound, cop was on a quad and rode up to us. I did not take off which he said was the smart thing to do. Did anybody ever have there quad messed with while in the impound yard?
Posted by: TomTom2
Protected/Private land, Tresspassing in Pine Barrens, No regerstration, No insurance. Cop told me if I ran I could have gotten locked up. It happened in Manorville, I'm new to this board and wanted everybody to know they are cracking down like nuts here.
SUFFOLK COPS HAVE QUADS AND BIKES!!!!!
Posted by: TomTom2
Sad truth is there is only 1 legal track on Long Island in Yaphank. They are looking into a atv trail park but it will never happen. I rode a bike for years without a problem, quads came along and screwed everthing up. people will alwyas ride wether the place is legal or not does not matter.
Posted by: TomTom2
After being impounded I kinda gave up the sport. The fines were ridiculous. I got a Kayaks and a new truck instead. The hot blonde option came after that for camping.....great fun.
Does Liorv still have a track? I heard bad things about them also.
Good luck with the Task Force, where are they looking to put the track?
Posted by: TomTom2
Do you have AOL IM name?
Posted by: JnJen575
Your Tom's little bro right? Didn't he get caught in the same spot last year??!! You dope, the DEC is all over the place there??!! Hes gunna kill u
Posted by: Cheapass
Wow, what were you doing to get 5 tickets and an impound?
Posted by: Cheapass
Well, as long as you accept it was your own fault. Nows a good time to reconsider riding illegally and making the rest of us look bad, huh?
Posted by: Cheapass
Unless he was caught on a paved road on private land. Insurance rules would still apply. technicality, and a DA may be willing to dismiss it, but it is a motor vehicle, and if operated on road it has to be insured.
Posted by: Cheapass
That's rough. You have to insure offroad vehicles in NY? Ick.
Posted by: 86LT250RFatty
Thats harsh man, im sorry to hear that. I live in Rocky Point, NY in Suffolk, we should go rididng when you get your quad back, LOTS of places to ride by me. I got stopped by a cop once he let me go though, but now when i see a cop when im riding on the roads i just run their not allowed to chase you because it puts the rider in a dangerous position lmfao.
Posted by: wfo660r
hey man, if i were you, i'd fight the ticket about the insurance. im originally from new york, and as far as i know, you are not required to insure an off road vehicle. unless it's changed in the last few years, or you were on a trail that's part of a riding club that has different rules. And the first two tickets, private land and trespassing, that seems like their giving you two tickets for the same thing. the resigstration thing, you're probably going to have to eat that one. but see what the laws are. like i said, im pretty sure that in new york you arent required to have a non-highway vehicle insured. let us know how it goes.
Posted by: GLAE874
You run from the cops? I don't know whose stupider, you are your parents. Nice representation of the sport. Go fly a kite instead.
And what happened to LIORV? I heard the were thrown of their property.
Posted by: GLAE874
You would think they would use common sense. On Long Island there is no legal place to ride so people ride illegally. They formed a Task Force to investigate illegal ridding and whether or not a legal place would help stop the illegal ridding. The anti's attitude is if they are breaking the law now, why would they stop ridding illegally if they made a park? There argument is very good. Everybody on Long Island who owns off road vehicles knows they can only be ridden on private property so its hard to convince people that only 1% of the owners ride illegally when most do. If we cant police ourselves we will never show the public we can be trusted.
Posted by: GLAE874
I went to the second one and 6 people showed up. I'm going to try and make the next one, a bunch of my friends are going, I need to see if I can get off work.What the story with LIVRO? are they still around?I heard they took peoples money and closed.
Posted by: GLAE874
Nothing but good news.....as usual
Ohio dairy farmer Frank Sutliff was grinding cattle feed when he saw them again: all-terrain vehicles shredding his alfalfa fields.
When he shouted to the riders over the engine whine that they were trespassing, they smashed him over the head, he said.
"I went down, and they just started in on me
hit me, kicked me, broke my leg," said Sutliff, 46. "I crawled into the truck, drove back to the house and dialed 911."
One man paid a $100 trespassing fine. Another spent five days in jail. All denied wrongdoing.
Across rural America, angry skirmishes are increasingly common between property owners and off-roaders squaring off over dwindling open space.
Long accustomed to battling environmentalists for access to public lands, off-roaders now find themselves at odds with farmers, ranchers and a flood of new residents moving to the country for peace and quiet.
As Bob Buster, a county supervisor in Riverside, Calif., put it, "You have these two clashing visions of the countryside."
That infuriates landowners like Harlan Brown, who installed heat and motion sensitive cameras to catch off-road miscreants who created a muddy quagmire in his 100-acre Maine woods.
"Your land is not your land," said his wife, Judy. "You think it is, but it's not. It's terrible."
The clashes have made victims of riders as well as property owners.
In North Carolina three years ago, Joshua Woodruff, 22, died of internal injuries after he hit a steel cable while zooming down a private farm lane on his ATV. Farmer Ted Arnold said in an interview he had strung up the cable after making many complaints to police about trash, crop destruction and soil erosion from off-roaders. Arnold said he had liberally posted no-trespassing signs and warned off riders. No criminal charges were filed against him.
State and local officials in Maine, Vermont, Ohio, Minnesota, Wyoming and Michigan in recent years have enacted or are weighing measures to combat illegal off-roading. Homeowners say the laws do little to curb abuse, and off-roaders argue that some violate civil rights.
In California's booming Inland Empire, Riverside County supervisors are expected to vote this summer on what could be the nation's toughest law. The current draft would ban the activity on private property four days a week, even on the riders' property. Riding would be banned outright on private lots under 2 1/2 acres. Grading to create jumps, trails or tracks would require a costly permit and public hearings.
Off-roading "is increasingly dangerous, destructive and very difficult to control, except at huge public expense," said Buster, the Riverside supervisor. The county has long been a mecca for professional dirt bikers and weekend amateurs, and riders are outraged at the attempt to rein them in.
"That is total insanity," said Ed Waldheim, president of the California Off-Road Vehicle Assn. "Off-roading is the most incredible family sport there is, and to deny a kid riding on Sunday
that is repressive, totally crazy."
Clashes between riders and residents have been frequent in subdivisions that are being carved out of open space, on private property near national forests, and in rural areas including northern New England and the California desert where snowmobilers, school kids on dirt bikes and others were once free to barrel across unfenced, unposted land.
"Back in the '60s when I was growing up it was like the whole desert was wide open," said Brian Klock, spokesman for the California State Parks' off-highway vehicle program. "I literally would ride anywhere
. There were no signs, no maps, the only thing I knew was when you got near a residence sometimes the landowner didn't like it, and he would be out there with a shotgun."
Phoenix, suburban Atlanta, towns across Connecticut and the outskirts of Colorado cities all have seen urban sprawl bump up against popular cross-country routes, said Russ Ehnes, executive director of the National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council in Sheboygan, Wis. "The problem is the town spreads out and the trail stays put," he said.
Inland California is a particular hotspot.
"My 23 acres near Twentynine Palms are being massacred by off road vehicles," M.J. "Mac" Dube, the ex-mayor of Twentynine Palms and an aide to San Bernardino county supervisor Bill Postmus, said on a recent Saturday. "At 1:15 in the morning they were spinning around two feet from my bedroom, and I'm sick and tired of it."
Dube spoke at a February conference in Joshua Tree entitled "Desert Communities Under Siege Take Back the Power."
Speaker after speaker told of sleepless nights, clouds of dust and rocks, cut fences, hurled curses and threats, and return visits by off-roaders to carve permanent ruts in their yards after they had complained to sheriffs.
When Philip M. Klasky, co-founder of Community ORV Watch, hears the familiar guttural rumble in the Mojave Desert's Wonder Valley, he climbs a ladder to his roof to locate the trespassers on his 15 acres.
"Many, many times
I've stood in front of two growling ATVs on my land and said 'you are trespassing.' They just continue on their way
. They tell you time and time again, 'This is a free country, I'll ride any place I want,' even though they're on private property.
"They have complete carte blanche to go wherever they want because there's nobody available to catch them," he said. "It is a complete Wild West situation."
Riders can and often do leave police in the dust. With two officers per shift to patrol 5,200 square miles, and more serious crimes taking priority, Capt. Jim Williams of the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department admitted it took up to four hours to respond to a trespassing complaint.
As the pastime's popularity has skyrocketed, access to public lands has also shrunk.
Since the Bush administration took office, federal land managers have rolled back some closures. But since 1980, half of 13.5-million formerly ridable acres in the California desert alone have been lost, according to the Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Commission. There are an estimated 100,000 miles of dirt roads and trails across the state, but most require a lengthy drive to reach, says Klock, the state parks official.
"There's no place to ride," said Ryan Macdhubhain, 16, of San Marcos, a mud-splattered teen who wears rivets in his earlobes and a white bandana over his spiky black hair. "It's ridiculous."
Macdhubhain was riding his Suzuki motorcycle in Riverside County on a recent Sunday when he was stopped by sheriff's deputies while he was on private undeveloped land. He said it wouldn't quell his love of the sport. "I go off riding really hard and get it out," he said. "It's adrenaline."
He said he tried to avoid riding near peoples' homes, but sometimes strayed. On some occasions, those encounters led to yelling matches with property owners even though Macdhubhain said he tried to treat unhappy residents with respect if they did the same with him.
Lobbyists and manufacturers say off-roaders are a law-abiding bunch tainted by the actions of a misguided minority.
"A very, very small percentage of people can do a lot of harm
But it's a small percentage," said Mike Mount of the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America in Irvine.
Hogwash, said George Buchner, now of Tallahassee, Fla., who said he was "run out of Michigan by off-roaders" who broke his nose, threatened his life, ran over his wife's leg and destroyed his trout stream.
Buchner said although he sometimes dealt with a polite family that got lost on his land while riding, most were "25-year-old motor heads high on pot with a belly full of beer."
Posted by: Markymannn
Under what conditions can a cop confiscate your quad in NY? I've been stopped twice and threatened with confiscation. They've never done it, although I'm usually just taking it and not arguing with the cop.
Posted by: Markymannn
I couldn't read all of this, it was too much. But don't get on CATV's case too much because it is NYS that has created these attitudes. I'm more than twice his age and feel somewhat the same way. There are some groups in NY dedicated to ATV's but their progress has been minimal. My opinion is that NYS would rather just see ATV's go away, but they are very interested in milking the ATV community for all the taxation they can. I believe that NY has something like the 5th most ATV's of any state. It ain't going away!!! We pay reg of $10 annually, going to $25 this year. All ATV's regardless of where you ride will need to be reg'd. For that $$$, we are going to get a study from the state this year IF public riding lands are necessary. Yes they are, there the study is done!!! I live in Buffalo, the nearest legal riding areas are 2 hours away. That sucks. I actually go to PA to ride. But riding is so inconvenient that I'm thinking of bailing on ATV's this year. It is way too much hassle to ride here.
Now snowmobilers, NYS kisses their butts. Half their reg $$$ goes back to trails. It is amazing how much state $$$ goes into trails around the Buffalo area. Up to $500,000 some years. But yes, sledders are better organized that ATV'ers. Maybe the sledding sport has more glamor to it, where as ATV'ers are looked upon as "always tresspassing vehicles" that tear up the land and you can hear them a 1/2 mile away with their straight thru mufflers. That doesn't help us.
Lastly, Buffalo is in Erie County. In the winter you can ride in one county park, 10 minutes from my house. That's great!!! So this year, because of a county budget crisis, they closed the park to everyone. Just one more bullet into the ATV'ers riding heart
Posted by: js73751
ATV Task Force Meeting Scheduled
The next public hearing for the Suffolk County N.Y. ATV Task Force has been
scheduled for Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 5:00 pm in the Evans K. Griffing
County Center, 300 Center Drive, Riverhead, NY
I believe there will be a large number of attendees that may not be in favor of our endeavor. The Pine Barrens commission will be sending letters and inviting property owners adjacent to illegal riding areas. It would be great to turn their anger and concerns into support of a designated riding area. The Task Force has made great progress in the past 3 meetings. Now is not the time to be complacent and leave all of the work up to others. We need your help.
Tell your friends and bring them to the meeting. Call your riding buddies and get them to attend. Remind your dealer about this meeting. A legal area to ride is in their best interest. Your attendance and participation are important.
With the next meeting being held at 5pm instead of the middle of the work day, please make arrangements to attend. This is our best opportunity to earn a legal place to ride. In other words, If you give a damn, show up!
For more info: LIORV
FUTURE MEETING SCHEDULE
August 10 1:30 pm - ATV Task Force Meeting - Committee Reports - Hauppauge
September 14 1:30 pm - Public Hearing - Riverhead
October 12 (Time TBD) - ATV Task Force Meeting - Review draft of report of findings and determinations with recommendations for action, if any - Hauppauge
November 10 (Time TBD) - Final Public Hearing - Hauppauge or Riverhead
Posted by: js73751
Will you be attending the Task Force Meeting in Riverhead?
LIORV INFO
Posted by: js73751
You have some bad info. The LIORV is spearheading the Task Force Meetings. The reason for the poor showings at the meetings is that they are usually held in the middle of a work day at 1:00. Very difficult for many to attend. This meeting is at 5:00pm on the 18th. There has been much progress made over the last 2 meetings. I would urge all to attend even if you come late.
Posted by: js73751
Sorry to hear you left the hobby. Maybe with a legal place to ride you might come back?
As far as I know the LIORV is not involved with any riding areas:
From their site:
Riding Facility:
Effective March 2005, the Long Island Off Road Vehicle Association is not involved with the riding area anymore.
The land owner may allow some previous riders on the property on an invitation only basis.
There are a number of parcels that the Task Force (not the LIORV) have identified as meeting the perameters
outlined in the Task Force meetings. The decision of where it will be located is still a ways off.
Posted by: js73751
No, I do not use AOL. You can always pm me if you wish to keep it off the board.
js
Posted by: js73751
LIORV PUBLIC RALLY INFORMATION LINK
Posted by: js73751
BUMP
Quote
Originally posted by: js73751
LIORV PUBLIC RALLY INFORMATION LINK
Posted by: js73751
BUMP
Quote
Originally posted by: js73751
ATV Task Force Meeting Scheduled
The next public hearing for the Suffolk County N.Y. ATV Task Force has been
scheduled for Wednesday, May 18, 2005 at 5:00 pm in the Evans K. Griffing
County Center, 300 Center Drive, Riverhead, NY
I believe there will be a large number of attendees that may not be in favor of our endeavor. The Pine Barrens commission will be sending letters and inviting property owners adjacent to illegal riding areas. It would be great to turn their anger and concerns into support of a designated riding area. The Task Force has made great progress in the past 3 meetings. Now is not the time to be complacent and leave all of the work up to others. We need your help.
Tell your friends and bring them to the meeting. Call your riding buddies and get them to attend. Remind your dealer about this meeting. A legal area to ride is in their best interest. Your attendance and participation are important.
With the next meeting being held at 5pm instead of the middle of the work day, please make arrangements to attend. This is our best opportunity to earn a legal place to ride. In other words, If you give a damn, show up!
For more info: LIORV
FUTURE MEETING SCHEDULE
August 10 1:30 pm - ATV Task Force Meeting - Committee Reports - Hauppauge
September 14 1:30 pm - Public Hearing - Riverhead
October 12 (Time TBD) - ATV Task Force Meeting - Review draft of report of findings and determinations with recommendations for action, if any - Hauppauge
November 10 (Time TBD) - Final Public Hearing - Hauppauge or Riverhead
Posted by: revhardlt250r
Hey i'm from long island and ride in riverhead by a farm/beach area..Havn't had a problem yet..But on my way 2 my spot i see exit 56 still pumpin and seem's like the cop's don't care 2much! Any1 have any other spots 2 ride>? or land>? Let me know please...Thanx
Posted by: revhardlt250r
or any1 on long island that wats 2 ride....
Posted by: revhardlt250r
ya iight DUDE!!!!!!LMAO
Posted by: revhardlt250r
I WAS TALKIN ABOUT SOME1'S PRIVATE LAND...NOT PIGGG CHASSSING LAND! if i wanted 2 be chased i would hit the roads DUDE!
Posted by: zappa24
Hey Nickg. I rode in MayBrook a few weeks ago the thought it was great!!!!! I loved the buildings and the mudders area was the best. Maybe I'll see ya out there this weekend. 05 Grizzly Blue with ITP wheels and tires.
