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Posted by: reconranger
One of my favorite subjects! First, I am a biochemist by profession, and have done a lot of study on the chemistry of oils. First off, to start with you always want to pick a motorcycle specific oil that is API SG/JASO MA.
Synthetics have huge advantages over petroleum, and ester synthetics have advantages over other synthetics. The small amount of extra money synthetics cost, is well worth it. My personal choice is Maxima Extra, which is 100% Ester Synthetic (http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4synthextra.asp)! If you can't find it at your local shop, order it from onoffroad.com
Some oil info:
http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/LubeNews2002.pdf
Posted by: reconranger
What's wrong with this picture??? You spent $8,000 on your quad. What's the big frigging problem with spending $8 for a liter of the best oil you can buy?
Poor people don't own quads! Anybody who can afford a quad, a truck and trailer to haul it, a toy hauler trailer to go camping, fuel, tires, chains, sprockets, a helmet, boots, etc., etc., can easily afford a UPS truck load of the finest oil!
Posted by: reconranger
I figure this issue is like women. You can settle for an ugly one, but for just a bit more effort you can find a pretty one!
The difference in cost is absolutely negligable. The little bit of money you save running petro won't even buy you a can of beer!
I would bet that the average quad owner changes his oil once a year, if that. I have 8 quads, and I run Maxima Extra at $8 per liter in everything. I change the 450R at no more than 5 hours. On the 400 sport bikes I average 10 hours, but will go 20 in a pinch. My lower end machines average 20+ hours between changes.
All the oil I consume in one year, doesn't cost as much as the gas for my Suburban hauling my trailer full of quads on a day trip.
Sometimes economy is false economy!
Posted by: reconranger
Maintenance issues are why I will never buy ANY vehicle used! You don't know what the previous owners idea if reasonable maintenance was..............
Posted by: reconranger
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire, from a lubricant forum. This info is about Maxima Extra:
http://forums.noria.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/4061023001/r/1711023701
Statements like "synthetics can make your clutch slip" are really somewhat humerous, because the different groups of synthetics are as different as night and day. Different chemically, physically......different in every way. If you want to say that the particular synthetic YOU picked made YOUR clutch slip, well that might be true, but to lump ALL synthetics together is just silly.
If clutch slipping is an issue for you, then even more the reason you need a motorcycle specific oil that is JASO MA!
Posted by: reconranger
Even though it seems conditional, the word "can" is loaded because it lumps all synthetics together. There are three major different types of synthetics (group III like Rotella, group IV PAO's like Mobil 1 or Amsoil, and group V which includes the esters), and there is nothing very similar about any of them!
I didn't read his posts closely, but I didn't notice that Scooby mentioned any particular brand of synthetic he had a problem with, so he is again doing us all a diservice by lumping them all together.
I also noticed that Scooby endorsed JASO MA oils for proper clutch function, WHICH ALL THE MOTORCYCLE SPECIFIC SYNTHETICS ARE (with the exception of Honda HP4M synth blend which is JASO MB, and not for use with a wet clutch).
Posted by: ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash
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Originally posted by: reconranger
Poor people don't own quads! Anybody who can afford a quad, a truck and trailer to haul it, a toy hauler trailer to go camping, fuel, tires, chains, sprockets, a helmet, boots, etc., etc., can easily afford a UPS truck load of the finest oil!
I agree with you.....but I am poor; literally. and I still put full synthetic in all my rides, even our family car. I am a mechanic, and love to build race engines. For me Synthetic is the only choice.
Posted by: ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash
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Originally posted by: Doctorturbo
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with economic value.
Lets do a little math.
I have 10,000 hours on one of my engines (not a quad) and I change my Rotella oil at 100 hours on the dot. I can currently get 15-40 Rotella at a little over a buck a quart. If I use 4 quarts / change we will round that off to 5 bucks a change. So; if I do a little math it says that over the years I have spent $500 for oil.
Now lets do the same math if I used syn oil in the same engine. Now I realize they did not make syn oil 45 years ago and even about 20 some years ago it was BIG bucks and not available to the general public.
Now I don't know what this Maxima Extra costs but most true syn oil cost around 6 to 8 bucks a quart so we will go with 7 to be fair. Yes I know, sometimes you can get it cheaper at Wally world but most people go with dealer oil because they are scarried about auto oils. (In "most" cases this is another myth)
4 quarts x $6=$24 a change. Now we do the same math. 100 changes x $24/ change; wow that's $2,400 bucks!!!!
I priced a rebuild for this engine not too long ago and it was around 1,800 bucks. So, even if the engine needs to be rebuilt I have saved enough to do it by using good old dino oil.
Now, I change my oil out on a 100 hour basis. Like I said above, "some" people change their oil in 10 or 20 hours; some said 6 hours!!!!!! And this guy said he was using syn oil!!!!!!
For the fun of it lets say I used the 10 hour figure for oil changes for my engine.
10/10,000= 1,000 changes!!!!!
1000 changes x $24/ change; WOW that's...................hu?...............could that be right?..............lets do that again..............yep...........it's right............ $24,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say this one more time a little different; that's TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!
Now this is a piece of equipment that this engine is in so you will never see 10,000 hours on any quad motor.
I would guess that the average quad puts on less than 1,000 hours and the bushings the seat the plastic and every wear surface on it is done. The quad is junk long before the engine is junk in most cases. After all, how many 70's bikes do you see on the trail when you go riding? How many 80's quads do you see? See that Rappy on the trail with the big buck oil in it? In most cases it will be wrecked by a tree shot or a 10x's roll down a hill before the engine goes south.
Most people will have their quad less than 10 years before it is wrecked or sold. I guarentee my quad with dino oil will run just fine 10 years from now, if I keep it that long.
I'm not here to argue with people that want to change their oil more than most change their underwear. If they do that, so be it. It's your money.
I'm here to point out the math and economics of syn vrs dino oil. I'm sure some kids on here think they "MUST" use syn oil or their quad will blow up. I'm here to say BS and that I've used good old dino oil in many many many race motors that wind up more RPM than most quads on this forum, and NEVER had an oil related failure.
I'm also here to say if you want your quad to perform like new 10 years from now you had better keep more of an eye on your air cleaner and worry less about oil.
And now I have to go riding!!!!!! (Better check my air cleaner) hr>
Good math........now you didnt add in the factor that full synthetic doesnt break down as quick as the natural oil. I have no probley running my full syn 3 times longer than the natural oil. So you can cut the cost in 1/3. Pluss in my personall opinion engine life is increased, so I am holding out even longer on the rebuild, so every day past YOUR rebuild...I am saving money. Plus the claims of the oil companies (i'm not to convinced YET) is that you can achieve better gas milage....there is a further money savings over time........
BUT YES dino oil is just fine! It is really down to a personall choice. My father and I are both die-hard gear heads, I use syn....he uses dino oil and neither one of us have had a true engine failure that can be 100% traced back to type of oil.
Posted by: ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash
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Originally posted by: Doctorturbo
Again, I'm not dissagreeing with the fact that syn oils are better. I know they are. I will disagree with the fact that most people on this site "need" syn oil. 9 times out of 10 any good oil will work.
100% agree......someday I plan on making it to So Cal and we will have to grab a beer!
Posted by: ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash
Doctorturbo..........LMAO.....Funny thing happened to me today.....Went out snow riding with my wifes quad (LT230) after about 2 hours of riding the engine started to act like it was dragging (but no odd noises) and within 30 sec I hear 1 screach and done! Locked up tight as hell. I come home and check my records and the engine has natural oil in it (atric cat 10w-40) and it's full! So after I tear into it I will pay close attention but my first impression is that this is going to be oil related! WIFE is pissed because she hasn't got to ride it all year img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I knew I should of switched her quad to syn oil img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Posted by: Doctorturbo
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Is the synthetic oil worth the extra cost ? I've always used regular 10-40 in all my cars , lawnmower whatever. Will it really help that much?
Well that depends. Is it worth the extra cost? I don't think so, not in most cases anyway.
If you extend oil changes, then maybe. If you are going to race and need 100% of your power and your on the edge of engine distruction due to extreem heat, then maybe. If you live in north Alaska and your in the sub 0 temps then sure. For the average rider on this site, no I don't think so.
I use Rotella T in everything I own except in the circle car I crew chief for, that gets 8 quarts of Mobil 1. Some of my engines are almost 50 years old, one with almost 10,000 hours on it, and it uses a quart to 100 hours. I would hate to think of all the money I would have throw down the toilet using syn in this engine.
I can get Rotella for a little over a buck a quart. Most true syns are about 6 bones a quart; some fancy ones go way over that. So we are looking at about 5 bucks a change as apposed to about 25 bucks a change.
Some people on here said they are changing their oil at 8 hours!!!!!!! This can get expensive real quickly!!!
Maybe I'm lucky, but I have never had an engine failure due to oil.......NEVER. I have used Rotella all my life and won't change due to my "luck" with it.
I'm not knocking syn oil. They are better in all aspects..........except one, cost. With most of the engines I build and race, syn oil is not economically viable...................yet.
IMHO oil is not the big thing some would make it out to be in an average quad. Air cleaners are a different story!!!!!
Posted by: Doctorturbo
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with economic value.
Lets do a little math.
I have 10,000 hours on one of my engines (not a quad) and I change my Rotella oil at 100 hours on the dot. I can currently get 15-40 Rotella at a little over a buck a quart. If I use 4 quarts / change we will round that off to 5 bucks a change. So; if I do a little math it says that over the years I have spent $500 for oil.
Now lets do the same math if I used syn oil in the same engine. Now I realize they did not make syn oil 45 years ago and even about 20 some years ago it was BIG bucks and not available to the general public.
Now I don't know what this Maxima Extra costs but most true syn oil cost around 6 to 8 bucks a quart so we will go with 7 to be fair. Yes I know, sometimes you can get it cheaper at Wally world but most people go with dealer oil because they are scarried about auto oils. (In "most" cases this is another myth)
4 quarts x $6=$24 a change. Now we do the same math. 100 changes x $24/ change; wow that's $2,400 bucks!!!!
I priced a rebuild for this engine not too long ago and it was around 1,800 bucks. So, even if the engine needs to be rebuilt I have saved enough to do it by using good old dino oil.
Now, I change my oil out on a 100 hour basis. Like I said above, "some" people change their oil in 10 or 20 hours; some said 6 hours!!!!!! And this guy said he was using syn oil!!!!!!
For the fun of it lets say I used the 10 hour figure for oil changes for my engine.
10/10,000= 1,000 changes!!!!!
1000 changes x $24/ change; WOW that's...................hu?...............could that be right?..............lets do that again..............yep...........it's right............ $24,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say this one more time a little different; that's TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!
Now this is a piece of equipment that this engine is in so you will never see 10,000 hours on any quad motor.
I would guess that the average quad puts on less than 1,000 hours and the bushings the seat the plastic and every wear surface on it is done. The quad is junk long before the engine is junk in most cases. After all, how many 70's bikes do you see on the trail when you go riding? How many 80's quads do you see? See that Rappy on the trail with the big buck oil in it? In most cases it will be wrecked by a tree shot or a 10x's roll down a hill before the engine goes south.
Most people will have their quad less than 10 years before it is wrecked or sold. I guarentee my quad with dino oil will run just fine 10 years from now, if I keep it that long.
I'm not here to argue with people that want to change their oil more than most change their underwear. If they do that, so be it. It's your money.
I'm here to point out the math and economics of syn vrs dino oil. I'm sure some kids on here think they "MUST" use syn oil or their quad will blow up. I'm here to say BS and that I've used good old dino oil in many many many race motors that wind up more RPM than most quads on this forum, and NEVER had an oil related failure.
I'm also here to say if you want your quad to perform like new 10 years from now you had better keep more of an eye on your air cleaner and worry less about oil.
And now I have to go riding!!!!!! (Better check my air cleaner)
Posted by: Doctorturbo
ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash your exactly correct about syn not breaking down. And you make a very good point about extended oil changes. There is only one thing I dissagree with on extended oil changes with a quad.
Contamination.
The reason oil changes color in an internal combustion engine is contamination. The reason it looks black is carbon contamination. Filters in the past and even now days can't take that out. They just can't filter down to that small of a micron. Sure I know about incapsulation packages in oil but I don't worry about that. I just dump it and I have brand new oil again for a 5 dollar bill.
It seems like I'm in the minority here but it seem like a lot of people use their quads as boats. When this happens some/most of the time another form of contamination; water and silt get into the engine. Filters don't do a good job of removing water either. When this happens, that $24 dollars worth of oil is junk. When it happens with dino oil it's only 5 bucks to change out and your back on the trail again.
Again, I'm not dissagreeing with the fact that syn oils are better. I know they are. I will disagree with the fact that most people on this site "need" syn oil. 9 times out of 10 any good oil will work. Like I said above; and pardon the pun; most people will ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash their quad long before the engine goes. If the engine does go, 9 times out of 10 it has nothing to do with oil and a lot to do with general maintenance and proper care.
Like I said above, air cleaners are a different story. I've seen new engines cut to ribbons in a mater of hours because of a filter seal failure. IMHO this is the place where most people should concentrate on, not fancy expensive oils.
Posted by: Doctorturbo
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100% agree......someday I plan on making it to So Cal and we will have to grab a beer!
Be glad to burn up some trails with you thrash. (Knowing my luck lately, my V will lock up do to oil related matters!!!!!) Ha ha ha.......
Posted by: Doctorturbo
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would bet that the average quad owner changes his oil once a year, if that.
That is not what these people say; check it out.
oil thread
another oil thread And there are more posts that prove my point.
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The difference in cost is absolutely negligable. The little bit of money you save running petro won't even buy you a can of beer!
Hmmmmmm. lets do some more math.
You say you have 8 quads. Lets say they use 4 quarts apiece. You said the oil you use costs 8 bones a quart. Now, 8x4=$32 a quad/change. 8 quads x $32 dollars a change=$256 dollars for your fleet of quads for one change!!!!!!
You say that some go 5 hours some go 10 and some go 20. Lets average 10.
Now I don't know how much you ride but lets say conservatively 100 hours/ year/ fleet.
$256x100= $2,560 a year!!!!!!
Now I don't know what kind of beer you drink. and I do know biochemist's make a lot of money, but damn!!!!!!!!!! You must drink the good stuff!!!! BR>
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I figure this issue is like women. You can settle for an ugly one, but for just a bit more effort you can find a pretty one!
The pretty ones spend all of your hard earned money!!!!! I must have got lucky, best of both words for me. BR>
I'm all mathed out for the day, time to go riding!!! img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Posted by: Doctorturbo
DriverDoyle here is a post that Scooby talks about slipping clutches and Synthetic oils. He stated (now I'm paraphrasing) that he has used many, many different oils and he has found out the what you are stating; Syn's and high output motors with wet clutches don't mix. This guy knows his stuff about motors and clutches. He also has the $$'s to buy the best. He also has the smarts to know what works and what dosen't. He is not the only person I have heard on this forum talk about synthetic oils and slipping clutches with high output engines.
Scooby talk
Posted by: ERBEDS650
Hey what about AIr Filters?? K&N, No Toil? Stock? Uni???
Posted by: montyh
handycap: both are not the same in any of those tests. (except maybe the taste test). try any one of those tests. the syn oil will stay liquid at low temps that will jell fossil oils. and syn oil will stay liquid at high temps that leave fossil oils a charred mess in the pan. flash point of the syn oils is a lot higher too. just ask anyone with a waste oil heater that has tried to burn the used synthetic.
i'm not saying that either is better in a quad. i have run Mobil 1 V-twin oil in my harley engine, trans, and primary case (with wet clutch) for the last 30,000 miles with no problems despite the fact that the oil temps exceed 250 degrees f when i run it hard on a hot day. sometimes all day long, and this is with an oil cooler on the bike.
many of the anti friction and anti wear additives are the same in both oils as they must be added in the right amounts and any differences in them are due to each company having their own "secret recipe" for the additives.
i may or may not run synthetic in my Brute. i don't know yet. my research into synthetics so far has been looking for the ultimate Harley oil, and atvs are a whole different animal. but for those of you that do run synthetics in yours and run it longer, just make sure to change the filter, even if you don't change the oil. (side note. i work in a locomotive diesel shop and railroad locomotive engines cost around $300,000, and can hold over 300 gal of oil, yet the oil NEVER gets changed until something happens that requires draining the oil to fix. even then, sometimes the used oil is saved and put back into it).
another note: if you are switching from fossil oil to synthetic in an older engine, you can expect the gaskets to seep for awhile. what happens is the fossil oil builds up a wax in the gaskets that seals them. then along comes the synthetic and dissolves the wax. now the gaskets seep until the oil soaks the paper and swells it to seal it again. at that point you should be good to go.
there are good points on both sides here and i still need to decide what to use in my Brute eventually. i have read that break-in should be done with fossil oil for a couple of reasons. first, the oil needs to be changed frequently during break-in and it would be a waste to run synthetic for a few hours and dump it. second, synthetics usually have higher amounts of the anti-wear additives that can keep the rings from seating properly. but right now i'm kinda thinking i'll run fossil oil and change often, and use the K&N oil filter. (cross-over from harley research: K&N OIL filters are best available. best micron size, crud capacity, higher bypass pressure strongest can, ect..). their air filters arn't necessarily the best, unless you just want high flow.
ok, i've used enough bandwidth on this one, and there is tons of info out there on this subject. the bottom line is most of us have already decided what to use and probably won't change because of this post, but this is a complicated topic and a lot of us could use some plain english answers we can trust. the only real test i have seen was done on Harley oils (again, doesn't really apply here) by American Iron magazine. they sent samples of all the different oils (fossil and syn) to an independant lab for analasys. the Mobil 1 came back with the highest marks in almost every catagory. it was an expensive test to run, so i doubt that we can expect such a test for atv oils anytime soon.
monty
Posted by: montyh
i have heard the foam filters like the Uni will hold up better in the brute, where it may get wet because of the airbox issue. the K&N filters are known for high flow, but they do not trap as much dirt as some others (come on, i have read that they do not need serviced until 100,000 miles on the highway. if they were picking up all of the dirt, they would need serviced a lot more often than that. and some vehicle manufacturers will void the warranty if using a K&N air filter. others are ok)
so i'll probably get a Uni, but i haven't finished looking for info on this subject either.
my two cents. your mileage may vary
monty
Posted by: BryceGTX
I tend to agree with Doctorturbo (about 4 strokes). All my cars, I replace oil and filter every 3000miles. I have run quite a few cars over 200,000 miles with 10w-40 Penzoil. I have heard the argument that I can run more miles between changes with synthetic, but I prefer to change my oil more often. Now by the time the car gets to 200,000 many other things are going wrong with it, but engine lubrication or using oil is not one of them. Now with reguard to two strokes, seems these engines just don't last as long as 4 strokes, and oil is more important an issue with them, so I use synthetic in my 2-stroke toys: jetskis, quads, snowmobiles. But not in the chain saw, weedwacker or outboard dingy motor.
Bryce
Posted by: DriverDoyle
SYNTHETICS can make your clutch slip. Never tryed it on a stock motor but if you are putting the power down its not a good ideal. It took us twice to figure this one out. On a $650.00 barnett dirtdigger clutch system and on a $1000.00 Hinson clutch system. But if your running stock i dont know try it see what happens. but if your puttin lets say more than 40hp to the back tires i would not try it. The best oil i have found is yamalube 20-40.
Posted by: DriverDoyle
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Statements like "synthetics can make your clutch slip" are really somewhat humerous, because the different groups of synthetics are as different as night and day. Different chemically, physically......different in every way. If you want to say that the particular synthetic YOU picked made YOUR clutch slip, well that might be true, but to lump ALL synthetics together is just silly.
Key word being CAN!!!!!!
I was just trying to help the guy out. He can try what he wants. Synthetics are a good oil i will never run them. But to each his own. If you found one that work good Then great!! I dont think its worth taking a chance anymore on the clutches. But like i said to each his own.
Posted by: DriverDoyle
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DriverDoyle here is a post that Scooby talks about slipping clutches and Synthetic oils. He stated (now I'm paraphrasing) that he has used many, many different oils and he has found out the what you are stating; Syn's and high output motors with wet clutches don't mix. This guy knows his stuff about motors and clutches. He also has the $$'s to buy the best. He also has the smarts to know what works and what dosen't. He is not the only person I have heard on this forum talk about synthetic oils and slipping clutches with high output engines.
Sounds like he is saying about the same thing i am.
Posted by: handycap
Use Castrol GTX 5W/30 for $1.60 qt.
According to a district rep for Castrol the oil makers had trouble in the '90's with 5/30 oils causing foam and gelling up in a lot of engines that required that grade of oil. Most were Toyota and Nissan V-6 engines. The solution was to go to synthetic oil in a regular oil bottle.
Buy a quart of each, petroleum and synthetic and test for yourself.
look at color, check smell, taste, flow point, boil point, flash point. Use GTX 5/30, Put oil in freezer with another oil in 10/30 overnight, next day pour out oil in pan and see which flows the best. use a stove or burner outside in a safe place. Use a old pan and heat each oil with a temp probe in the oil. Check boil point and flash point. Both are the same.
I use Rotella in my Diesel truck in summer and Synthetic Rotella in winter, but when used in my boat 262 cu in Chevy engine it foamed up when I used it. Higher continuious rpm?
Posted by: mconner
Is the synthetic oil worth the extra cost ? I've always used regular 10-40 in all my cars , lawnmower whatever. Will it really help that much?
