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Posted by: garyc660R
Sheesh! I am caught up on reading. BigBlack, if in fact the situation with the boy is true, I agree with your comments 110%. I find it funny that some of you guys think you know what your kids are doing 100% of the time.
Posted by: garyc660R
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Originally posted by: MrDumass
I've ran from the cops a few times. One time they caught my arse, and I wish I hadn't ran. They beat me down, cuffed me, slammed my face in the ground, went to stuff me in the car and whacked my head against the patrol car. Slapped me in the face, for cussing from the mis-treatment, and threatened me all the way to the station. I was friggin 13! Needless to say I never ran after that.hr>
Shame your parents did not do anything about those cops abusing you even though you probably deserved it..LOL.
Posted by: garyc660R
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Originally posted by: MrDumass
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Originally posted by: garyc660RQuote
Originally posted by: MrDumassI've ran from the cops a few times. One time they caught my arse, and I wish I hadn't ran. They beat me down, cuffed me, slammed my face in the ground, went to stuff me in the car and whacked my head against the patrol car. Slapped me in the face, for cussing from the mis-treatment, and threatened me all the way to the station. I was friggin 13! Needless to say I never ran after that.hr>
Shame your parents did not do anything about those cops abusing you even though you probably deserved it..LOL.
LOL!! My dad put a whoopin on me that made the coppers look like a slap on the hand. I never really told my parents all of what happened that day. And yes I did deserve for my dad to put the stomp down on me, but the cop had no reason other than being jacked up on adreniline. They had they guns drawn and everything like I was an escaped convict. I guess if they would have shot me, some of you would have tryed to justify it, kind of like this poor kid that drowned.
Haha...is'nt that the truth. 1 of those guys would have posted "he kid deserved to be shot...people get shot when cops do their jobs".
Posted by: garyc660R
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Originally posted by: alwaysAz400rider
my dad and i srot of ran but the thing is the coips never saw us. We went riding back a gravel road and were warned by the friendly people of our area. then we hid in the woods and watched the couple cops cars go by until we could call for a ride and take the bikes home in the back of a truck. we wont be doing it again for fear of losing $12,00 n bikes so you people dont have to get all mad at me.
Does your dad run along side you in his vehicle to clock your top speed?
Posted by: LEP7MM
stupid move. Like Kemicalburn said, you made us all look bad. The only way to avoid this in the future is to abide by the laws. Plain and simple. People dump 5-8 thousand dollars on a wheeler and can't cough up the ching for a trailer. BR>
No different than idiots in cars. WRONG again. People don't differentiate between us on our ATV's. What you guys do affects everyone else across the nation. If you're in your car, it's just that A-HOLE in the car, not everyone on the road. ATV's are viewed as problematic machines and in the eyes of the non-riding public, the only way to fix the problem is to make everyone pay the price and ban them all together.
Posted by: LEP7MM
Heywood,
if you would read my signature, you would see what I'm doing about it. I am an ATV Safety Instructor for the state of MN and I also started a club in my area, in which I'm president. We are also in contact with the local Sheriff's Dept (my VP is a cop) to be first reposnders in the event that someone in the area gets lost, wounded, or to assist in what other emergencies may arise. You have valid points, but your the tone in your post comes off as being a little too arrogant. It does get frustrating when so many want the privilege to ride but sit back and let everyone else do the work. But hey, someone has to do it.
Posted by: LEP7MM
and the more cops let these things slip by, the more these idiots will think they can get away with it. Then, more people will see/complain, and the our sport gets an even bigger black eye because someone can't abide by the laws which are designed to "PROTECT AND TO SERVE".
We can disect this matter a thousand different ways and go no where. Obey the laws. It's the best policy.
Posted by: LEP7MM
the cops are the ones who survived this incident and could have willfully entered the water to "TRY" and pull this kid out in freezing temperatures. Hypothermia can set in in mere seconds in these conditions. So, should we hold the officers liable since they weren't equipped to do a water rescue? Should we hold the officers liable because they survived this scenario? They, afterall, can defend themselves and provide the challenge in court and also provide someone to blame for the tragedy? Maybe it was a challenge for the kid to see if he could get away? Who's to say this kid wouldn't have continued to run even without chase and still fall through the ice?
In the end, we as parents, are responsible for our children's actions, whether we're there or not until they reach the age of majority (18). We as parents, have the responsibility to bring our kids up to abide by the laws set forth by our legislators. We as parents, are responsible to be positive role models and bring our kids up in a structured environment.
Any accusations towards the officers involved, is a denial of ones own responsibility. The officers involved had no way of knowing if the kid would have kept running had they not given chase. Either way, the end result could have been the same.
Posted by: LEP7MM
I agree. This is a good showing of one of the other bad sides of the select few that ride. RR619, you're no better than those who run from the cops and your sentiments would be shared by all had it been you fighting for your life.
Posted by: LEP7MM
Big Black,
it's good to know that you have the resources available to you to find this information. But your posts are doing nothing but repeating themselves. How many more ways can you find to type the same info? You've made your point. We understand that several law enforcement agenices across the nation feel that a chase situation is not warranted in this circumstance. Point taken.
On the flip side, one can view this as a scenario where we have tried to legislate against stupidity, and unfortunately, have succeeded. This leads up to more frivolous law suits and no personal responsibility. A bunch of "mama's boys".
Don't get me wrong here. I am sorry as anyone this kid lost his life. If things would have been done differently on both sides, this could have been prevented. The frivolous suits and "mama's boys" are a result of compassion getting in the way of better judgement.
Posted by: LEP7MM
Geez Big Black,
I try to be nice and commend you on your resources and you get all defensive on me. Sheesh Then you attack a fellow poster in the forums about his grammar. How do we spell? Looking not too far back in one of your posts, you spell "where" as "were". Now look who's calling the kettle black. Not saying that I don't have my share of typo's as you can see the posts "where" I have gone back and either reworded something or corrected spelling.
Let's talk about opinions shall we? In the post that I complemented you on your resources, you simply stated someone else's "opinion". In this case, if a Supreme Court would find the officers in the Michigan case guilty of excessive force, this would simply be their opinion of what happened based on presented facts.
Another one of "your opinions" is right here in this very post. You know, the kids grammar and how he created a "total devastation" of the english language. You can search nearly every forum in this site and you will find the same grammar used by many. Perhaps we should get to know some of these people before we get too critical. Are you going to criticize people about how they look?
Posted by: LEP7MM
Big Black,
not that I'm backing out, but this thread has run it's course. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth as you implied. Our points have been made. We know where we all stand on this issue. It dies appear that we agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.
Oh, by the way. Quit quoting every line of every paragraph in almost every post you make. Those of us with bad grammar, reading skills, typing skills, or even comprehension find it tough to read j/k
Posted by: LEP7MM
Big Black,
If I ever make it down to that neck of the woods, I'll look you up. I was suppose to fly into Atlanta this past summer, but we had a change of plans and coincidently, the hurricanes hit Florida, which was our destination.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Reminds me of the story I read about in our newspaper sometime ago.
In Michigan,it illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to operate any type of ORV without an ORV safety class certificate and visual supervision of an adult that is 18yrs or older.
This 15yr old stops for fuel one day on his ATV.Upon leaving the filling station,he gets the red lights by a State Police cruiser not to far away.The kid runs and hauls ass.As he is running away,he headed towards Houghton Lake and rides on the frozen ice.Unknown to the kid,a little after as he arrives on the ice,there are 5 other POLICE on 4x4 ATVs with lights/sirens,ready to chase the dummy.So the kid still decides to run away from the cops.While being chased,the kid and his quad hit a very thin part of the ice on this lake and begins to fall thru.When the Police arrive to him,they decided it to be too risky to try and rescue the kid thru this hole.By the time the rescue folks arrived and found the body,it was too late,the kid had deceased from the elements.
To make matters even worse,the parents of the deceased youth were later charged by the Prosocuiting Attorney for not following Michigan laws regaurding youthful operation of an ORV and may soon be facing PRISON time.
Go ahead and RUN,this just might be YOU next time!
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Big Black,
while I personally dont wish death on anybody,I stand behind these cops 100%..They have a job to do and they did it..It was not the cops decision to chase this 15yr old,this kid made that decision the second he decided to run from the law.It was not the cops decision to allow the kid to ride without an adult present and without a valid ORV safety training certificate,it was the PARENTS decision,and they will be held liable for this in a court of law.I do hope these parents get some type of jail time for these infractions.
And I further stand behind these cops decision to NOT try and rescue this kid and jeapordize their own lives in the process.NOWHERE in''PROTECT and SERVE''does it say''DIE TRYING in the PROCESS''!!
These cops also have families,and I'd be damned if I'd go in freezing water and risk my life to try and rescue some uncontrolable jerk on four wheels that has no respect for the law.Its a shame it had to end this way,maybe the next ''runaway'' MIGHT think before acting so stupid?
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Mywifesquad,
I agree with you,these parents have lost their son and thats a big punishment,but they have also violated a SERIOUS ATV law in Michigan regarding youthful operation and should serve a sentenance for their stupidity.
Michigan ranks # 4 in the entire Nation in ATV related injuries.And of those injuries,about 47% of them are happening to our youth that are under the age of 16yrs old.If these parents would have abided by the Michigan ORV laws and seen to it that their youth did NOT operate ANY ATV without ADULT VISUAL SUPERVISION and a legal ATV safety certificate,im betting this incident would have NEVER happened in the first place!
We need to send a strong message across America that PARENTS and GAURDIANS will be held responsable for incidents that happen on an ATV if they allow it to be operated by a youth who violates the laws of their State.
These parents violated the law,that,if followed,more than likey would have saved their kids life,and should have to answer to their ignorance of violating the ORV laws of Michigan,even if it means some jail time.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I also stand FIRM with my decision that this entire incident is NOT the Police's fault and that they were indeed doing their job.
I dont know about Georgia,but Michigan law does NOT restrict officers from chases based on how major or minor a giving crime may be.If you RUN from a law enforcement officer and in the process,get injured or injure someone else,its YOUR fault,PERIOD!In fact,its a FELONY in Michigan to run,whether you are in a car/truck OR ATV,no matter how small the infraction may be!
I dont like your discreationary law that may find an officer at fault for an incident like the one that happened to this kid.The kid ran,he paid a severe price for it too.Cops just did their J.O.B!--We start letting folks run and not chasing them down,and pretty soon,everyone thinks they can have a field day with running because the cops wont chase them.And I GAUREENTEE you,this will not be good for society.
DONT RUN--and we dont have this conversation.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
BIG BLACK-----Exactly WHERE does your logic stop?
When a law enforcement officer is on a runaway pursuit of another ATV [or even a vehicle],he/she has NO IDEA WHO/WHAT is behind the helmet on the ATV.He does NOT know if the kid is 15yrs old OR 45 yrs old?He does NOT know if the runaway is packing a weapon,drugs,or maybe a convicted felon,wanted in 2 States?
You run,you lose-IMO!
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Logic?
the kid could have chosen NOT to RUN!And we would'nt be having this goofy conversation.
Thats the LOGIC part of my conversation.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
This 15 yr old also put OTHER innocent lives at risk.Houghton Lake has a HUGE carnival/festival on the ICE the last TWO weekends in Janurary of every year,with THOUSANDS of ATVers/Snowmobilers present for these weekend events.Thats WHY 5 COPS on ATVs and Snowmachines were readily present in so many numbers.
Dont Run-Dont Worry!
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
It should be at the descretion of the officer at hand if he pursue's the chase or calls it off.And in this case,some kid decided to run and lost his life as a result of his choice to run.The officers should not be held accountable for ANY part of this tradegy.
You asked how I would feel if this happened to one of MY kids?Well,thats a SIMPLE response.I KNOW that it would never happen to either one of my kids[boy 24 and girl 18]because I KNOW my kids and have raised them to respect LEO.MY kids would not place themselves in this situation in the first place.AND if it did happen,I would NOT hold the law accountable for the lost life of my son or daughter that made a bad choice that created the situation in the first place.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
LEP7mm,
I cant say it any better than you did and agree with you entirely.
BTW,
we are both DNR certified ATV Safety Instructors for our States.I am also Nationally certified with the ATV Safety Institute.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Internal Affrairs Departement is to investagate if there are any wrong doings within the Department.Since I find no wrong doing on behalf of the officers you question,an IA investigation would not be neccessary IMO!
As certified and licensed ATV safety Instructors?We instruct the safe and responable use of ATVs to our students.Which would also include NOT running from Law Enforcement Officers,whether on ICE,Hills,Sand,Snow,Hardpack,or other various terrains.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I know exactly what IA is for,I have friends and family in Law Enforcement...IMO,the only misconduct applied in this situation was from the 15yr old kid when he chose to run instead of stop.
I beleive that in the eyes of the Police at this crime scene,they did what they felt was in the best interest for the violation in question at the time of this incident.Police officers are HUMAN and must often react instantly to differant situations,and sometimes,it might not allways be the best solution to every incident to have the officer pursue someone that is fleeing and eluding,however,I trust an officers decision to PURSUIT the PERP of any fleeing and eluding incident.And I also trust that he will back-off the pursuit if he deems it necessary.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
BB,
I had a simlier experience with the law when I was a youngster.Somebody on a bicycle snatched a purse from an old lady earlier,and I just happend to be riding my bike around the same area as the crime.
I got treated like chit when they[police] encased themselves around me.But I dont hold these guys accountable for me fitting the description of a crime that had taken place earlier,they were doing there job IMO..Once they found out that I was not the one they were looking for,everything was cool and back in order,with apologies.
If you fit the description of a crime,they do have a right to use resonable force[even drawing their guns]to make an investigation,if they deem it appropiate and necessary for their own personal protection.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Reminds me of the story I read about in our newspaper sometime ago.
In Michigan,it illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to operate any type of ORV without an ORV safety class certificate and visual supervision of an adult that is 18yrs or older.
This 15yr old stops for fuel one day on his ATV.Upon leaving the filling station,he gets the red lights by a State Police cruiser not to far away.The kid runs and hauls ass.As he is running away,he headed towards Houghton Lake and rides on the frozen ice.Unknown to the kid,a little after as he arrives on the ice,there are 5 other POLICE on 4x4 ATVs with lights/sirens,ready to chase the dummy.So the kid still decides to run away from the cops.While being chased,the kid and his quad hit a very thin part of the ice on this lake and begins to fall thru.When the Police arrive to him,they decided it to be too risky to try and rescue the kid thru this hole.By the time the rescue folks arrived and found the body,it was too late,the kid had deceased from the elements.
To make matters even worse,the parents of the deceased youth were later charged by the Prosocuiting Attorney for not following Michigan laws regaurding youthful operation of an ORV and may soon be facing PRISON time.
Go ahead and RUN,this just might be YOU next time!
Very sad from two sides.
The kid died side one
Side two the officers chased him which ran him farther on the ice to where it was thin and stood by because it was "too" unsafe for them as he died. They should have ended the chase long time before they got that far.
Was the kid in the wrong, you bet and should have been held responsible for his actions.
Was the officer&39;s wrong, by chasing no; but being professional&39;s to serve and “PROTECT” and still pushed this kid into a more dangerous position yes they are wrong and CAN be held liable if it can be shown that ANY reasonable person would have stopped for their and the other persons safety
A good lawyer will have the cops in court too their judgment as adults will be put up against the judgment of a 14 year old kid. The cops will have a bad day with the right lawyer on the other side, especially in civil court.
Many stats show that the ending a chase by the law enforcement leads to less injuries and deaths.
Do I support running, NO you play you pay. Do I support an professional to judge the situation and decided if the offense is worth putting lives at more risk and waiting another day, YES.
Lets us know how the whole mess turns out.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Big Black,
while I personally dont wish death on anybody,I stand behind these cops 100%..They have a job to do and they did it..It was not the cops decision to chase this 15yr old,this kid made that decision the second he decided to run from the law.It was not the cops decision to allow the kid to ride without an adult present and without a valid ORV safety training certificate,it was the PARENTS decision,and they will be held liable for this in a court of law.I do hope these parents get some type of jail time for these infractions.
And I further stand behind these cops decision to NOT try and rescue this kid and jeapordize their own lives in the process.NOWHERE in''PROTECT and SERVE''does it say''DIE TRYING in the PROCESS''!!
These cops also have families,and I'd be damned if I'd go in freezing water and risk my life to try and rescue some uncontrolable jerk on four wheels that has no respect for the law.Its a shame it had to end this way,maybe the next ''runaway'' MIGHT think before acting so stupid?
First and foremost I am a law abiding citizen and support law for I donate too many of their causes.
BUT…
As I stated cops have a job and DUTY to serve and PROTECT. Who were they PROTECTING here? This kid would have stopped the run away if they had lifted and they would have had another day to get this kid. I do not support this kid&39;s action but for an ADULT and PROFESSIONAL to knowingly continue a chase into a more dangerous situation is absurd. Cops have been convicted of liability in the past for car chases accidents. There is a point when the cop must make a decision, "Is this chase worth this kids or other people&39;s life?" Also since you support him "doing his job" it is also his job to exercise all means available to save lives. He has family but HE made the decision to continue this chase so his job also includes going in and trying to safe this kid&39;s life.
Pick your stance, he cannot be commended for "doing his job" and then looking out for self when it is convenient and then blaming a blooming 14yr old for this.
Come on he was 14yrs old, I hope the officer who is an adult and professional would have better judgment?
Many agencies are beginning to have policies banning police chases for minor infractions which I am sure this was.
Read the following news story for a couple examples of this type of policy.
Cops must begin to know when to say NO
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
... Michigan ranks # 4 ...
Although as I stated I support the law but the absurd police chase you described contributed to that 4%. Without chase another atv accident could have been avoided.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
... Michigan ranks # 4 ...
Although as I stated I support the law but the absurd police chase you described contributed to that 4%. Without chase another atv accident could have been avoided.
BigBlack, I assume you are not saying that police should not ever chase down people breaking the law. So where do they draw the line? And The kid chose when, how and WHERE to run, he made all those decisions, which turned out to be fatal to himself and I would assume, ruined his parents life in the process. I just cant blame the police in this situation. If they let all quad's ride anywhere they want that could be a bigger problem, dont you think?
Many states are adopting policies that forbid their officers to commit to a pursuit unless the suspect has or suspected of committing a felony. This is OK in my book I support this 100%.
Any of you with kids should feel my pain here. I am a law abiding citizen and support the law but there has to be someone responsible enough to step up and decide if it outcome is worth it, period.
1st we have all been teenagers and know the mindset and trickery that goes on behind our parents back. To blame the parent&39;s right out is ridicules unless it is proven they knowingly supported this behavior.
2nd he violated no law that would earn a death penalty in court but we are giving police officers the ability to hand out death penalties for crimes that do not warrant them.
Let me give you another scenario to better illustrate my point.
Scenario: This same kid ran from the law and was unknowingly headed for a dangerous cliff on the side of a mountain. Should the police still give chase knowing if they do this kid will unknowingly run off this cliff and get killed all under the protect, “I was doing my job.”. I am sure this kid would not head in the same direction on the ice if he had the opportunity to do it again. But do you really feel this 14 year old saw the danger when he hit the ice? Would he run most likely yes teenager will do stupid things but should the law potentially kill them for such petty actions?
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
... Michigan ranks # 4 ...
Although as I stated I support the law but the absurd police chase you described contributed to that 4%. Without chase another atv accident could have been avoided.
BigBlack, I assume you are not saying that police should not ever chase down people breaking the law. So where do they draw the line? And The kid chose when, how and WHERE to run, he made all those decisions, which turned out to be fatal to himself and I would assume, ruined his parents life in the process. I just cant blame the police in this situation. If they let all quad's ride anywhere they want that could be a bigger problem, dont you think?
Oh yea, give chase? yes, if your department does not have policies against it, but be professional and reserve enough to realize when a suspect is not going to give up. Let them go and get them another day.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
BigBlack, I think we are very close to the same page on this. I just cant believe that this kid (or the kid in your Scenario) did not know where they were going when they were running. I also ran from police in my early teens and put my self in harm's way a few time's. The police did not lead me to those places/situation's they followed me there. And like I said before I have 2 boy's and cant imagine what the parent's are going through. I would assume that the cops in this situation feel bad the way it ended also. This kid did decide to run on his own. Possibly because he knew his parents were not going to be pleased to find out he had taken the quad again!!! I just think that the kid is more responsible for the result than the police are. I think that is our only disagreement on this. Am I correct??
My scenario was fictional to try and illustrate my view here.
Ice is something that is very tricky and soft spots cannot be seen. As adults we know the dangers and would proceed on ice cautiously. This 14yr old I am sure never gave thought to the thin ice possibility. I am just saying that these cops have to use good professional judgment to stop when it&39;s appropriate. If major cities own police departments are creating policies to stop high speed pursuits for petty crimes then there must be a problem here.
I will quote a person who states it perfectly, Capt. Greg McCurdy of the L.A. Police Department (2003)
"We do not want to stifle police work, but we do want to make it clear to our officers that they will be held accountable to do the right thing"
This was a comment on their no pursuit policy for petty crimes.
The right thing to have done in this situation is to discontinue the chase, get the teenager another day.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: mywifesquadMy hind site is 20/20 also, I make great decisions after I've made a mistake. I just cant assume the police knew the out come of this situation any more than the kid did. If this kid had not ran when he was "red lighted" He would be alive now also.
Here is another scenario: This kid is allowed to run away by the police and later that day is riding thru his neighborhood and hit and kill's a 2yr old chasing a ball into the street. Now would the police be liable for that death because they let this kid go?
The police know the outcome of high speed chases typically lead to a crash unless the suspect gives up. They should also know the dangers of ice and the possibility of hypothermia. If they do not realize the two pre mentioned stats then they do not need guns or badges.
It has been shown that majority of the time when the chase is discontinued the suspect reduces their speed and aggressive maneuvers.
Therefore the cop should have made the decision that playing on this ice is statistically more deadly than letting this kid go.
Your scenario can happen even if the chase is productive and the suspect was caught, Unless they lock him up he could kill the same kid while sporting a brand new unlawful operation of an ATV ticket in his pocket.
Posted by: BigBlack
I am not trying to shift the balme either. The kid was at faught which I have agreed on from the begining, I just feel there has to be better judgement from those trusted to "serve and PROTECT" as to when certain force is needed.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
BigBlack,
I give up. You win. Congratulation's. I still dont agree with you (on this one point) (and the kid is still dead)but I give up. I am not going to convince you and you are not changing my mind either. I do however respect your opinion and your right to have it.
I just spoke with our justice studies instructor here at our college where I teach CIS and gave him the scenario as stated and he said the officers were wrong and could face charges given the info as stated above.
He said the most logical solution was for the ATV cops to abandon the pursuit when it reached the ice.
The car cop could have visited the store and asked about the kid who was probably a local and the store clerk could have most likely identified him and they could have safely driven to his home to issue the citations.
I am not trying to change anyone&39;s beliefs but when law enforcement agencies on their own are making changes we as citizens should realize the problems with high speed pursuits.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: LEP7MM
and the more cops let these things slip by, the more these idiots will think they can get away with it. Then, more people will see/complain, and the our sport gets an even bigger black eye because someone can't abide by the laws which are designed to "PROTECT AND TO SERVE".
We can disect this matter a thousand different ways and go no where. Obey the laws. It's the best policy.
I am not saying let them get away with it. There are other investigative measures that could have been used here. Yes look for them find them and prosecute them but please use some professional judgment here. Once again when law agencies BY THEMSELFS are making policy changes then there obviously is a problem in existence with high speed pursuits.
Listen, I am just supporting what 1000&39;s of other LAW AGENCIES are saying who have dissected this issue with real stats and have decided there needs to be a change.
Put you self in the parent&39;s shoes and before the, “My Child would never…” crap begins just assume your perfect little teenager who does no wrong did decide this day to sneak the atv out and run from the cops. Do you honestly expect me to believe you would stand over your child&39;s grave a say, “Well you got what you deserve, I am thankful those officers did their job and got you and your atv off the streets you law breaking jerk.”
Come on there comes a time when certain issues need to be question and see if better solutions exist.
Would you whether the cops to abandon the chase and even give your teenager a temporary sense of “I am above the law mentality” to return to the store for identification and later arrive at your home to safely give your child his citation.
Let&39;s be logical here.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I also stand FIRM with my decision that this entire incident is NOT the Police's fault and that they were indeed doing their job.
I dont know about Georgia,but Michigan law does NOT restrict officers from chases based on how major or minor a giving crime may be.If you RUN from a law enforcement officer and in the process,get injured or injure someone else,its YOUR fault,PERIOD!In fact,its a FELONY in Michigan to run,whether you are in a car/truck OR ATV,no matter how small the infraction may be!
I dont like your discreationary law that may find an officer at fault for an incident like the one that happened to this kid.The kid ran,he paid a severe price for it too.Cops just did their J.O.B!--We start letting folks run and not chasing them down,and pretty soon,everyone thinks they can have a field day with running because the cops wont chase them.And I GAUREENTEE you,this will not be good for society.
DONT RUN--and we dont have this conversation.
I not questioning the duty of cops and in Georgia officers can still ditch a high speed suspect but recently charges are beginning to be filled and are sticking for excessive use of force. I am asking that persons use a little logic for the situation. There are ways to still apprehend and prosecute people who break the law why not use some of those tactics.
Do you think the store clerk recognized the kid who is probably a local around there?
Could the police get identification and serve the citation at the child&39;s house.
Could this same kid be prosecuted with out pushing this kid to further endanger himself?
If you answer yes or possibly yes to any of the above question you have to question the logic behind the chase.
To support chase at no cost are you wiser and more knowledgeable on the issue than the 1000&39;s of LAW ENFORCEMENT agencies around the US that admit and recognize a problem exist with giving chase?
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
..We start letting folks run and not chasing them down,and pretty soon,everyone thinks they can have a field day with running because the cops wont chase them...
You have misunderstood me, I did not say let them get away with it. Many times in a chase the first few seconds is enough time to gather enough information to later identify the suspect. Let&39;s abandon the chase and find and prosecute them later.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
BIG BLACK-----Exactly WHERE does your logic stop?
When a law enforcement officer is on a runaway pursuit of another ATV [or even a vehicle],he/she has NO IDEA WHO/WHAT is behind the helmet on the ATV.He does NOT know if the kid is 15yrs old OR 45 yrs old?He does NOT know if the runaway is packing a weapon,drugs,or maybe a convicted felon,wanted in 2 States?
You run,you lose-IMO!
He does not know and it is not even a considerable thought for the officer to have. He was chasing the suspect because he was operating a ATV improperly. That does not justify death.
Again do you have more info than LAW ENFORCEMENT agencies around the US that say themselves that chase should be abandoned when the danger exceeds the crime?
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Logic?
the kid could have chosen NOT to RUN!And we would'nt be having this goofy conversation.
Thats the LOGIC part of my conversation.
How many 14yr olds do you know that make rational decisions?
Again he(the 14yr old) should be cited but there are other ways to handle then to purposely run this kid on thin ice.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: sweetquads
If a 15 year old is riding his ATV down the street and decides to run from the cops and gets hurt or worse, even dies. Dont blame the cops. Blame the parents!
Not blaming the cops for his misdoing just expressing what (again) 1000's of law enforcement agencies are also expressing. Chase should be abandoned when the danger exceeds the crime. Use other alternatives to apprehend the suspect.
The parents cannot be the blame unless they are proven to be aware of this kid&39;s wrong doing.
I remember sneaking out of the house at night were my parents the blame, no
I remember going places on my 3-Wheeler (oops dated myself) I was not suppose to, were my parents the blame, no
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: sweetquads
If a 15 year old is riding his ATV down the street and decides to run from the cops and gets hurt or worse, even dies. Dont blame the cops. Blame the parents!
I would expect you to be the first on TV to state if you were this kid's parents, "Well little sweetquad jr had it coming and I commend the police for their effort to take this severe criminal off the road and I apologize to the officers for the danger he put them in by making them give chase, the little jerk just gave all ATV'ers a bad name."
And then you read of Police Chiefs around the US explain alternatives to giving chase and still say, "Well he got what he deserved and I would not prefer those alternatives to what happened and I am satisfied with the job preformed by our outstanding police, they are so great in taking these little jerks of the road so the rest of us can enjoy the sport because we NEVER inappreciably operate our ATV."
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: sweetquads
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...the police don't want to stop chasing people...
One of the largest police forces in the nation does. The L.A. police department enacted a no chase policy in 99.
Las Vegas in 2003
For just a couple of big agencies.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: sweetquads
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I remember going places on my 3-Wheeler (oops dated myself) I was not suppose to, were my parents the blame, no
yes they were. Being a parent is not always easy. Sometimes it means you actually have to get to know your child. Your parents should have known weather or not you were the type of kid who was going to sneak out of the house and taken some measures to prevent it.
And BTW the police don't want to stop chasing people. They want to avoid the lawsuits after the criminal dies or gets hurt from the criminals parents or spouse.
I was a very good kid. I made good grades, all the teachers wrote home letters of my great behavior, I was polite and courteous to everyone never question my parents and their decisions but I was still a teenager. If I had got caught then my image could have been shattered. I did get in trouble from time to time for minor things like talking in class, and typical kid stuff but nothing major that would indicate any problems.
At 16 I got pulled over 1 or 2 times speeding 68 in a 55 and 56 in a 45 and pulled over and the officer let me go with a warning. Mainly due to the respect I gave him. Yes Sir, No Sir, etc… I took both of those warnings to my parents apologized and had my keys taken for a given time, longer the second.
I always have accepted my punishment and from actions as above my parents trusted and had great belief in my innocent behavior which for the most part was an accurate belief.
So how could they have suspected I would sneak out (really only a couple of times) and go places I shouldn&39;t? They had from seeing and hearing a greatly behaved child. They were not at fault.
When your kids do something I am positive you will publicly apologize for not being a good parent and knowing every thought in their mind to prevent such actions.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: sweetquads
Why do you think they did that? Out of the goodness of their hearts to save criminals lives? lol no it was because of lawsuits. There is some consideration of inoceant bystanders getting hurt aswell, which im sure plays a big part in it.
Why should the officer even worry about bystanders, for from all the logic on here the whole responsibility of chase is on the suspect because the officers were merely doing their J.O.B. as someone put it?
With the logic on here the lawsuit should be on the suspect not the officers because they should be allowed to give chase regardless of the cost.
None of you have express what your response would be if that were your 14yr old in the ground. From your post it would be something like, "Yes little Billy got what he deserved and these wonderful cops are to praise from getting him off the streets for the jerk had it coming."
I have a child and I do not see were the force equaled the crime.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: motox26
I don' believe the parents should be punished, Im sure they are being ptu thru enough misery right now by the loss of there son. While I do beleive parents of these days need to be more responcible for there children, you can't expect them to be able to keep tabs on there children 24/7.
Before my father passed he was a police officer. I used to ask him if he was in any high speed chases. He alway said jokingly it would be fun, but to much is in stake. He would say that if he would keep pursuing the chase if the criminal would not pull over, he wasn't going to pull over until he was forced or injured. Not only would he be endangering the criminal, but himself and innocent people walking or driving down the street in a potential accident. Like bigblack said, usually all the evidence they need to know who it is only takes a little bit. Plus if a kid is riding a quad to a gas staion, it probably is a smaller town and not some new york city streets, so more than likely it is one of those everbody know everybody type deals.
Thank You motox for yet another REAL life example of where Police officers see a need to abandon the chase when the danger exceeds the crime.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: motox26
...In the end it really doesn't matter, but the only good that comes from accidents and tragedy's such as this, is that maybe we can learn from it.
My point exactly we learn from our past and thus the reason I am questioning, "Are there other solutions when the chase dangers exceed the crime."
In this situation the kid paid the price with his life. But can the agency learn and search better and cleverer ways to get the next 15yr old.
Or do we turn a blind eye to the accident and situation as a whole and thoughtlessly do it all over again. As society proves that seems to be the way or we would never have another war, right?
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
If we are going to endanger lives, then the risk of endangering the suspect, officer and bystanders should outweigh the risks of letting the suspect go. Even someone driving recklessly, I can see making every effort to get off the street. BUT, should the officer shoot out his tires because some guy on a quad crossed a street into a gas station? Where's the REAL crime? Where did he endanger the public? Who did that harm and how does it justify risking lives or damage to a patrol car?
99% of the kids that do this, do not understand the consequences. And I would be willing to bet that most are so scared afterwards they'll never try it again.
Let's stick to busting real crime, like jaywalkers! hr>
LOL
Well said Raptor Legs.
This crime in my mind does not equate the level of danger the chase reached.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: MrDumass
Ya know what pisses me off about that story, is the fact that no-one even tried to help save the kid. Ya know the kid didn't just die suddenly.
I can honestly say that I could not sit and watch an innocent person die without doing anything. There is no way I could wake up everymoring knowing that I let a person die when I could have prevented it.
Correct the kid initiated (the kids fault and punishable but not by death), the cops gave chase, situation happened and now the cops are, oh it&39;s too unsafe to go out there and try to save this kid, although it was plenty safe to give chase on.
Double Standards BR>
Explain that to the mirror every morning Mr. Officer
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
This 15 yr old also put OTHER innocent lives at risk.Houghton Lake has a HUGE carnival/festival on the ICE the last TWO weekends in Janurary of every year,with THOUSANDS of ATVers/Snowmobilers present for these weekend events.Thats WHY 5 COPS on ATVs and Snowmachines were readily present in so many numbers.
Dont Run-Dont Worry!
Further supports abandoning the chase.
Still you have not provide your response to the public if it were your kid, would it be something like, "The little jerk got what he deserved and the police should be honored for their courageous effort to catch but not save my child."
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
This 15 yr old also put OTHER innocent lives at risk.Houghton Lake has a HUGE carnival/festival on the ICE the last TWO weekends in Janurary of every year,with THOUSANDS of ATVers/Snowmobilers present for these weekend events.Thats WHY 5 COPS on ATVs and Snowmachines were readily present in so many numbers.
Dont Run-Dont Worry!
Also I guess those innocent lives he put at danger were playing on that same thin ice, if they were not out there then they were in no danger. If they were then a 4-wheeler should be the least of their concern. And those courageous police officer's should consider at the VERY least those innocent bystanders safety before they flush a high speed quad in the midst of them.
As stated there were other means as identified by 1000's of other law enforcement agencies to pursue this kid
Posted by: BigBlack
Micigan DNR officers doing it the right way:
CO Mike Daniel observed a quad running down the middle of the road. After it stopped, he found a young boy on the quad without a helmet, no license on the ATV, and no supervision. The father of the boy was finally found and a ticket was issued.
See the cop waited and safely issued the citation
CO Bob Hobkirk worked the late evening near Caseville and observed several PWCs operating well after sunset. One PWC was pulling a subject on a wave board 45 minutes after sunset without an observer. The officer watched them until they returned to the dock where he met them and issued a citation.
Again waited!!!
CO Kelly Knightlinger reported working on an ORV complaint that caused extensive damage to state land. Officer Knightlinger was able to locate the two juvenile violators who had fled from her earlier.
Here the young adults ran but were brought to justice later because the oficer decided to do investigative work, no chase ensued.
Come on the same "Justice" could have been used for the 14yr old. Radio the ATV cops I have a so and so 4 wheeler headed your way with a rider wearing a red helmet and blue jacket. Please lookout and follow him to camp or what ever, or even catch him in a safe inescapable situation I have him on video violating statue bla bla bla...
See this kid could have just as easily been brought to justice without a chase.
Posted by: BigBlack
One more of the Michigan DNR cops doing the right thing:
CO Block cited a mudbogger truck following an investigation. Returning from waterfowl patrol with Sgt. Brady, he was fueling his patrol vehicle when 2 quadrunners turned into the same gas station, saw the patrol vehicle and raced away. Officers were able to track suspects to a residence where appropriate cites were issued.
Did they drop the doughnuts and give chase, NO. They did police work and investigated using tracks were able to track and properly cite the two at their resident.
WOW able to punish the little buggers without chasing and causing more danger.
Unbelievable this kid lost his life.
If you are still under the impression chase is always the right and only thing to do then well…
Under the right situation chase may be necessary but I do not see where chase was necessary with the 14yr old.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE..I KNOW my kids and have raised them to respect LEO...
Naive parent, I would be willing to bet all the money in the world they have done something you are unaware of. Not questioning their raising for from your response I KNOW you would be a good parent and raise your children to the best of your ability but to say you know what they have done 24/7 from day 0 until their 18th birthday is naive.
I certainly agree it is up the officer to make that decision but as the several cases I have shown in situations like this a better decision to put forth a little effort and track the kid to his house would serve the same citation purpose without more endangerment which no mater how you split it was due to the officers chase.
Officer&39;s every day have to be accountable for their decisions so I do not see how you argue they cannot be questioned. They are human and make human decisions which in some case are not good decisions and they get fire or legal actions are taken on them as well. Cops do go to jail you know.
Ever heard of excessive force which is a REAL crime committed by law officers, in other words it is when an officer deems to use force that was unnecessary or excessive for the crime as I feel is the case in the listed accident.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE... if it did happen,I would NOT hold the law accountable for the lost life of my son or daughter that made a bad choice that created the situation in the first place...
I am not asking if you would hold the law accountable, I asking if you would stand over their grave and tell them, "Well lttle jerk you got what you deserved and I am grateful for the law officers who got your law breaking butt off the road and I am so thankful they did not attempt to rescue you so they could live to take more jerks like you off the road."
Which is the song you are singing right now about someone else's kid.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: LEP7MM
the cops are the ones who survived this incident and could have willfully entered the water to "TRY" and pull this kid out in freezing temperatures. Hypothermia can set in in mere seconds in these conditions. So, should we hold the officers liable since they weren't equipped to do a water rescue? Should we hold the officers liable because they survived this scenario? They, afterall, can defend themselves and provide the challenge in court and also provide someone to blame for the tragedy? Maybe it was a challenge for the kid to see if he could get away? Who's to say this kid wouldn't have continued to run even without chase and still fall through the ice?
In the end, we as parents, are responsible for our children's actions, whether we're there or not until they reach the age of majority (18). We as parents, have the responsibility to bring our kids up to abide by the laws set forth by our legislators. We as parents, are responsible to be positive role models and bring our kids up in a structured environment.
Any accusations towards the officers involved, is a denial of ones own responsibility. The officers involved had no way of knowing if the kid would have kept running had they not given chase. Either way, the end result could have been the same.
You guys are not hearing me!!!!
It is a fact not a fantasy that cops have accountability on their part. Why is there an investigation internally when a cop has to use deadly force? It is to question that cop&39;s judgment and to make sure the "criminal" was given every opportunity to give up peacefully and no other options, hear me no other options to the incident. That is the way it goes and is the law in America. If a lawyer can show a cop did not use good judgment and try every means possible to safely bring the person to justice then guess what they can be found liable.
People have said by not giving chase others would begin to run and get away. True if the cops abandon the chase and went home which is not what I am saying. I am saying abandon chase when the danger exceeds the crime and use other police tactics to locate and bring the suspect to justice. On the other hand if the cop&39;s judgment is not question the force they use would increase and increase until you have them shooting you in the leg for improper street crossing.
And for naïve parents as far as I remember, Jesus was the only prefect and all knowing humanly figure to walk the earth. If you claim you know EVERYTHING your child has done than you have just elevated your self to Jesus himself. If you also claim you kid would never do anything wrong then, they have just been elevated to Jesus as well and your family is blessed.
I have said and will re-state the KID was wrong for 1st violating the ATV law.
The PARENTS are at fought if and only if they KNOWINGLY let the kid violate the law.
The KID was wrong again for running.
The LAW was right to preserve justice.
The LAW also has the responsibility to determine if the danger elevation they are a part of is justified by the crime.
The COP has the option to resort to other very reliable measure to bring justice to this violator while reducing the danger of the situation.
In the scenario I disagree with the double standard of, "It&39;s unsafe for a rescue attempt" but seconds before it was plenty safe to give chase. There were ways to avoid the death and still bring the child to justice can any of you which none have not tell me how the chase was the only solution to this incident?
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
LEP7mm,
I cant say it any better than you did and agree with you entirely.
BTW,
we are both DNR certified ATV Safety Instructors for our States.I am also Nationally certified with the ATV Safety Institute.
LEP7mm and MUDDY4LIFE why do we have IA departments in all law enforcement agencies if cops are not to be questioned on decision they make?
DNR certified ATV Safety Instructors has what to do with this subject? Oh yeah you were taught not to ride ATV's on thin ice and now are expected to teach others that.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Internal Affrairs Departement is to investagate if there are any wrong doings within the Department.Since I find no wrong doing on behalf of the officers you question,an IA investigation would not be neccessary IMO!
As certified and licensed ATV safety Instructors?We instruct the safe and responable use of ATVs to our students.Which would also include NOT running from Law Enforcement Officers,whether on ICE,Hills,Sand,Snow,Hardpack,or other various terrains.
You need to review you IA Department purpose.
From the Memphis Police Department
“The purpose of the Internal Affairs Squad is to define responsibilities and establish procedures for sworn members of this department for dealing with observed or reported allegations of misconduct.
Internal Affairs investigates all complaints lodged against police personnel. These complaints can range from verbal abuse to brutality. The majority of these complaints fall under three categories: Personal Conduct, Use of Force and Arrest, and Duty Performance.”
Are you arguing if a safer solution existed in the listed scenario the officer should ignore that? I hope as a “Certified Safety” instructor you are not arguing that. If so I would not want you teaching my child safety.
My argument has never been whether the 14yr old should be let go or that the officers should not punish him. My argument all along and is actually being implemented across the US is that officers should evaluate the chase and determine if the danger meets the crime and if they believe they can bring the suspect to justice in another way the chase should be abandoned. I argue with 1000&39;s of law officers that actually do this for a living the chase should continue if it is the only solution.
Again no one has explained how the chase was the only solution in this case. I have given several options for the officers if the chase had been abandoned. No one has said either if it were their “Perfect” child they would openly praise the job the officers did and blame the immature 14yr old decision while looking down at their dead son or daughter and are thankful to the officer for the JOB well done.
Posted by: BigBlack
Oops I just realized from my last post IA defines RESPONSIBILITES for law officers.
Many of you argue they need to uphold justice by any means necessary and they have no responsibilities because its ALL the suspects fault.
Ridiculous!!!!!
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
BB your nutz. siding with the huligans. it was their desicion to set the whole spin underway. if you dont run they dont chase and you deal with consequences eitherway. If the police choose to chase they have every right to. If the dumbass crashes and dies, His own dam fault. coulda been avoided if he made a better choice. Sucks he had to make poor descisions and abandon his family like that.
OFC, don&39;t make me smack you. LOL using your favorite line.
Yes the kid was a fault and should be brought to justice and I do not side with him. I am only arguing the chase should be re-evaluated as 1000's of agencies are doing across the US to ensure safer means are not ignored to bring about justice.
Can anybody tell me where it is smarter to choose a more dangerous path to justice when safer paths may be present.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: LEP7MM
We as parents, are responsible to be positive role models and bring our kids up in a structured environment.
LOL! Whatever man. I had the best role models you can imagine and I raised friggin hell when I was in high school. You can't lock your kids in a closet.
My point, all these perfect kids are kids of parents who snuck around themselves. But all of a sudden it was suddenly bread out and the child has become a perfect being.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: catchmeifucan
This is going way too far, i believe ALL of you have made extremely reasonable points, and this could be argued on and on for a very long time. I for one think it is amazing how inteligent some of these people are on this forum, and that you can argue so well, but this is goin to turn into a fight, and the thread will be locked.
BTW, I went riding on my dad's trike today in a field with a huge empty pond.......LOTS of fun!!!! Its awesome to ride the walls of the pondimg src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">hr>
You are correct about the back and forth. One thing cannot be ignore is that persons who are actually involved in these chases are already making changes to ensure safety of all. It just a matter of time when the chase will not be as automatic for minor traffic violations and then I will be happy.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I know exactly what IA is for,I have friends and family in Law Enforcement...IMO,the only misconduct applied in this situation was from the 15yr old kid when he chose to run instead of stop.
I beleive that in the eyes of the Police at this crime scene,they did what they felt was in the best interest for the violation in question at the time of this incident.Police officers are HUMAN and must often react instantly to differant situations,and sometimes,it might not allways be the best solution to every incident to have the officer pursue someone that is fleeing and eluding,however,I trust an officers decision to PURSUIT the PERP of any fleeing and eluding incident.And I also trust that he will back-off the pursuit if he deems it necessary.
Apparently you did not know IA was also for investigation to citizen complaints therefore I though it necessary to defend my statement. Also it is not only for misconduct but use of force. Chasing is a use of force and could, let me stress, could be consider excessive in certain situations
"and sometimes,it might not allways be the best solution "
Thanks for finally admitting it which is what I have been arguing. I have not been arguing if he should be let go but if other options could have been used to eliminate the danger of the chase.
BTW, I have a Deputy Marshal, State Trouper, Deputy Sheriff, Crime Scene Investigator, and Law Enforcement Training Instructor who was once a probation officer that are all close family members.
I forgot to add Lawyer.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
BB i authorize Shoot first ask questions later tactics Law by the gun J/k everyone wants to tie the hand of the law. let the lawman decide how best to do his job. If its to shoot someone SO BEIT seemed to work aww ight in the old west. All I gotta say is Womens Lib was truly the downfall of society.hr>
OK onefly if we did not question the authority convicted “alleged” criminals would not be getting out of jail today due to new DNA science. I feel Officers hands should be free BUT as a human being making decisions that could be the wrong or inappropriate then their decision must have consequences too or you could not trust the law.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
All I gotta say is Womens Lib was truly the downfall of society.hr>
I hear ya! Being pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen wasn't so bad. All their movement did was force 2 to work for the same pay one used to make.
Be sure to slap your momma next time you see her! hr>
LOL BR>
You guys are something else, thats why I love to spin.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
No tell me what did womens lib do but Put the prostitutes indoors? LMAO seriously though about the cops. if your a wrong doer you will never like em. if you live your life in a decent fashion you wont mind them. Hell i just checked my driving record !!! SPOT FREE BABY well at least thats what insurance sees. but the patrol car computer. Oh dam. Im just dumb enough to stop i guess hr>
On a serious note I not only mind them I have the utmost respect and love for them. I just believe we should always question scenarios and see if there are better alternatives.
This issue just hit a nerve with it being a kid on a ATV. I am a father and put myself realistically in those parents shoes and also in those officers shoes and realized on my on that the chase may not always be the right thing to do. I then researched that issue and found that agencies are actually making changes that parallel my opinion. I then decided if persons that actually are involved in these chases see a need to re-evaluate the process then, it is a problem.
My record consists of three speeding warnings (no more than 15 mph over the speed limit in any of them). One blown headlight warning, hit a bird going home from work but the officer just wanted to make sure I was aware and would get it fixed. 2 wrecks where I was rear ended once at a stop sign and once at a red light no fault on either of those. I think that is pretty good for over 16 years of driving but I still question force when it just does not seem to fit the crime.
Oh yea I got pulled over once for mistaken identity and actually had the guns drawn down on me. Ironically it was a person who eluded the law the weekend before in a vehicle similar to mine so you would think I would be on the other side of the fence here.
I pulled over and waited for them to approach my window for the reason I was stopped. I looked in my review and they were crouching behind their car door pistols drawn screaming put your hands were we can see them.
I was like ‘ol chit. Put my hands out the door and slowly exited the vehicle and assumed the position. They ran my license and let me go never explaining the situation. I respectfully went to the police station the next day and asked the chief, he apologized told me the story and asked if I wanted to file a formal complaint. I said no but tell your officers those guns can hurt people and they need to be sure before they point them.
Posted by: BigBlack
I forgot to add in my last post.
From my experience as an innocent citizen wrongly accused I will always question force used and if it was justified. Did I deserve to have a gun pointed at my chest that could accidentally go off and kill me? NO!!!!!!!!!!
So what if I had been the one that outran them the weekend before. I pulled over and waited as you are suppose to do. Gave no indications that I was fixing to run and even rolled my window down while I was pulling to the shoulder so they could clearly view me and what I was doing as they approached the vehicle.
Were they doing their job? Sure
Did the actions they followed meet the crime, absolutely not. There was no crime.
Yes I will always question the rationale for the made decision but never argue to let the criminal go.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: NJRaptor419
BigBlack, does your kid run from cops on his quad? You seem like the type that takes an active interest in his child and what he's doing so I suspect not. One of the problems is that parents just let their kids go nuts rather than pay attention and make sure they are'nt doing something stupid.
I waited a little while before I got a child. In my early 30's I have my first 10 month old so right now I can guarantee she is not running. I guess I will be in my late 40&39;s early 50&39;s before my child is as old as yours. I have had a good christen up bringing and will raise her with the same morals and beliefs that was instilled in me. When she becomes a teenager I will be an active part of her live and do my best to ensure she does the right thing according to her teachings. Will she ever do something I am unaware of; I would be naive to think not. I had great parents but still did stuff without them knowing and therefore I must assume my child will have the same teenage moments.
My hopes and prayers is the lessons I teach pre-teen will carry over and she will make the right choice.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFEIf you fit the description of a crime,they do have a right to use resonable force[even drawing their guns]to make an investigation,if they deem it appropiate and necessary for their own personal protection.
True, all I am arguing is that police officers are not too good to re-evaluate their decisions and develop better and cleverer ways to handle petty situations.
I feel as citizens we can still support law enforcement and also question certain aspects to help make our life, the law officer&39;s life, and the criminal apprehension safer.
The litigations I have mentioned was just to state how it is in the real world. Today&39;s society puts everything under a microscope and lawsuits are abound.
Do I support frivolous lawsuits, absolutely not?
Do I support lawsuits against officers who ignore safer alternatives for the simple sake "I was doing my job” You bet I do, they are professionals and I expect them to make the "right" decision.
Remember they are human and a badge does not quarantine them from the responsibility of attempting to make the right decision. Cops who routinely make bad decisions need to have the badge remove but this will only happen if we question their decision.
Also in my situation remember I elected not to file a formal complaint.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
It's just like the car chases. If they back off a little, the suspect usually descreases their speed.
Not saying let him go. Again the risk of a chase should outweigh the risk of letting the suspect go. Not true crime was committed up to that point. He's was not a threat to the public until he panicked and ran.
Perfect!!!
My whole point put better than I have been able too thus far.
Do not let him get away with the crime but use appropriate force and realize when the force out weighs the crime and use other measures.
Posted by: BigBlack
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Originally posted by: alleycat
Cops couldn't have been that close or they would have ended up in the drink as well. Like someone said earlier hindsight is 20 20. Would have should have could have. Anyone hates to here when a young one dies, me included. I feel for the officers as well, watching someone die and being unable to help due to lack of equipment not by choice is devastating to them and something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. People will always hold them under a microscope over the situation and their decisions. If they believed their was thin ice they would not have ventured out on the ice to begin with. What better place to pursue someone, on an open playing field. Anyway if the person would not have run(that is for criminals to do) this would have all been avoided all together. Yes the person did break the law,albeit minor. The way it sounds on this forum alot of people run. WHY? Drive where you are allowed to drive and would be no problems. Doing this gives more ammo for the anti ATVers. Recently in Ontario they amended the off road vehicles act. They now allow anyone that has a drivers license to drive on roadways in Ontario with an atv. You have to follow the rules of the road, and reduced speed. Same legislation that covers snowmobiles in the winter. You are not flying up major roadways, but to get fuel, crossing roads etc. it is allowed. Maybe if you have clubs that could lobby for something similiar in your neck of the woods, people would not be obliged to run and would saves lives like mentioned above. This in turn would keep cops persuing and catching real criminals. Remember alot of cops and law enforcement personnel are also atvers and would like to keep the sport safe. If you go to a search site like yahoo or google look up Ontario off road vehicle act if interested. This could have also saved the above life if their was no infraction to begin with.
The whole argument is the potential danger of the chase. As I have stated 1000's of law agencies around the US are amending their chase policies due to overwhelming statistics that show it dangerous to 1st bystanders, 2nd the officers, 3rd the criminal (which I am sure is not the main motive), and 4th property damage. It has been proven that nearly all runners slow and reduce reckless driving when the chase is over and you can still prosecute with identifying evidence collected in the early stages of the chase. If LAW, let me stress LAW agencies from around the US are saying it is best to end the chase and find and prosecute later in some cases then who am I to argue with people in the business of chasing and catching criminals. This case is sad and tragic with the loss of a child and no one let me say no one has came on here to backup their stance and say if it were their child they would get on a public forum and praise these cops with the same praise as they have done and speak so harshly and criticize their dead child as they have done this, “Stupid Kid.”
Did the kid deserve to be punished, defiantly as I have stated many times.
Could he have been prosecuted without a chase, more than likely 100% yes.
Could revised chase laws have prevented this kid from getting killed, yes.
Would the kid have gotten away with a crime with revised chase laws, no.
I am saying lets learn and use more cleverer tactics in criminal apprehension that lowers the risk to everybody and put an end to more frivolous lawsuits and tragic live ending stories.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: alleycat
I do agree with you. You have to weigh the danger during the chase. I agree with all you have said. I just believe that would have been a place to persue someone in relative safety. No one could predict he would have hit thin ice. Even if he was not being chased the outcome would have been the same. Their still would have been thin ice.The reason I say this is I don't know if the pursuit would have caused him to drive in unknown areas, people when pursued usually sick to familiar grounds, just my thoughts and experiences. I don't think anyone would come out and say their kid was stupid. It is a tragic loss to lose your child. Myself and everyone else that have children hold their children in such high regard, they would never be able to accept this no matter the circumstances. I know in Ontario I have already mentioned the one change for roadways, they have also adopted chase policies where they will discontinue the chase if risk is too high for the same reasons you mentioned. They have adopted stiff penalties as well for anyone that runs. I hope the agencies that changed their chase policies could also look at the atv policies on roadways. This would also eliminate the need as some people see to run. ATVers you also have to look at the risk and end result. Is it worth it? I don't think so. Do you have any atv laws allowing atvs on roadways? That was my other suggestion earlier about allievating the above situation. Change the regulations for roadways. I know some places allow it like where I live. Your not driving up major highways, but to get fuel,cross roadways, back country roads to get between trails. Just my suggestions to look at to hopefully avoid scenarios like we have been discussing. Anyway ride safe and have fun. Myself time to get the sled ready.
I agree that we cannot 100% assume the outcome in this scenario. We can only to learn and try to improve criminal apprehension. I am a southerner and we may have one day a year that we get snow flurries and rarely have enough ice to play on so thin ice is the first thought when we venture out on a frozen slab. Up north were you are use to ice cover lakes and what not thin ice may not be encounter as often and not considered. Either way the adult in this scenario should have realized the possibility and gave the benefit of doubt to the ice that it would be thin.
Would this kid have headed out across the ice well we do not know because we do not how long the pursuit of the ATV cops lasted. Imagine how far you would go pinned in just a minute. At 60mph you would have traveled 1 mile in just 1 minute. If this chased lasted 5 minutes the criminal would have traveled 5 miles. 5 miles is a long way to slow and make better path choosing decisions if you are not being chased. If we knew this we could make a better assumption if the kid would have ended up on the ice anyway.
Some in this thread have called this kid stupid for running and that he got what he deserved. Many in this thread have kids and still feel this 14yr old got what he deserved and the cops should be praised. That completely amazes me for as a parent I cannot fathom the loss of my child. Look at the pain Scott Peterson's parents are going through and he is an adult and should be expected to make rational decisions, but a 14yr old?
I only researched chase policies for US but seems Canada LAW agencies are beginning to see other possibilities too, good job! Stiff penalties for those who run is a new thought. Punish harder once safely apprehended if you run would differ running to, great idea!
Many of use have spoken as you that the atver should weigh the risk. If the atver was an adult I would agree but a kid we hope makes the right decision but is still a kid and cannot be expect to react like a rational adult.
A move that I think began in Canada that I research would be a great move across our two wonderful continents and make ATV travel possible for long trips. Seems some wanted to convert old abandoned railways to ATV passes. Imagine being able to travel across a couple of cities using abandoned railways.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: alleycat
Yes they have done it. they called it the Trans Canada Trail. It is about 10 min. from my home. ATV, snowmobiles, hikers you name it can use this trail system. A lot of the sections used were already snowmobile trails in use during the winter months, so you have access to lodging,fuel, meals etc. Some of the scenery is breath taking as well. You do come close to towns, but a lot of it is in the Canadian wilderness. Hopefully your agencies down their can do something similiar for atv and other outdoor enthusiasts in general. It is unbelievable you basically can leave the east coast and reach the west coast if you want on an ATV. It would be long but one hell of a ride. Just a note. Around my place some of the smaller lakes are frozen over bigger ones just starting. Ice will be safe by Jan 1 on most lakes.
We are getting a little off topic but I have looked into coming up there and spending a couple of weeks and ride your atv trails that connects town to town. I would defiantly want to come during your summer months so my wife would enjoy riding. It would be fun to ride a day sight see and lodge in a different town each evening.
When reading the ATV system up there sounds wonderful and I envy options like that.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: RaptorRider619
Good riddance to that 15 year old idiot and I hope he is rotting in hell for being such a dumba$$. Those cops were not at fault in the least bit and I applaud them for not saving him while he was freezing to death in that water! That kid got what he had coming. I'll bet he wont make that mistake again!img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif" border="0">
The Supreme Court seems to think cops can be liable in situations like this. Of course we cannot fully diagnose the scenario without the entire story. By running this scenario as it is stated to a justice studies instructor who has been in the Marines, a Deputy Marshal, and Police officer in cities like Miami and retired as the Police Chief in our town before entering the teaching profession said the cops were liable if the story as given is true and he would bet if that was a law officers kid they would file charges if the scenario transpired as stated given.
This is from someone who has had a life career on the side of the law.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: LEP7MM
Big Black,
it's good to know that you have the resources available to you to find this information. But your posts are doing nothing but repeating themselves. How many more ways can you find to type the same info?
And looking over your post you are singing the same song over and over too, pot calling the kettle black LOL funnyQuote
You've made your point. We understand that several law enforcement agenices across the nation feel that a chase situation is not warranted in this circumstance. Point taken.
On the flip side, one can view this as a scenario where we have tried to legislate against stupidity
It&39;s called research and fine tuning, imagine were we would be if we had never reviewed or questioned things. Imagine if the north had said what you are saying back in the slavery days, “Oh lets not legislate because it is stupidity of those ‘ol southern farmers, no need for slavery abolishment laws they are stupid and its ok.” Give me a break.Quote
, and unfortunately, have succeeded. This leads up to more frivolous law suits and no personal responsibility. A bunch of "mama's boys".
Don't get me wrong here. I am sorry as anyone this kid lost his life. If things would have been done differently on both sides, this could have been prevented. The frivolous suits and "mama's boys" are a result of compassion getting in the way of better judgement.
Any reasonable adult should welcome research and solutions that are better for both sides.
Now it&39;s your turn to sing your verse one more time but yet try to discourage others from doing the same.
BTW I have provided facts to support my side but all you have are opinions, I am more inclined to listen to them with supporting research.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: cruise24
I dont care what anyone says if it was them they would have either stayed till the cop came over to them or done what u did. Dont let the man get you down.
Maybe the English cop can pick you up and take you to class. Will you wait for him?
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: cruise24
I dont care what anyone says if it was them they would have either stayed till the cop came over to them or done what u did. Dont let the man get you down.
Maybe the English cop can pick you up and take you to class. Will you wait for him?
If he won't wait, can the "english cops" get into a high speed chase?? LOL
From the total devastation he committed against the English language and the possibility someone else may be reduced down to pre-k reading and writing by coming in close proximity I feel the danger to society is greater than the chase. I am sure he will not get to fast on his big wheel so I see no reason to abandon chase.
LOL
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: MrDumass
Quote
Originally posted by: RaptorRider619
Good riddance to that 15 year old idiot and I hope he is rotting in hell for being such a dumba$$. Those cops were not at fault in the least bit and I applaud them for not saving him while he was freezing to death in that water! That kid got what he had coming. I'll bet he wont make that mistake again!img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif" border="0">
I wonder, have you ever witnessed the death of a fellow human? It's not something that you just walk away from and be ok with. It will haunt you for years to come. This poor kid died a horriable death, and you appluad it. That is one of the most assenine things I have seen on this site. You really should apologize for saying that. You are entitled to your opinion, but in this case you should have kept it to yourself.
Although not pointed to me I thought I would share a very sad story,
10 or so years ago at a softball tournament about 10 miles out of town at a small country field I watch as a 30 something man died from a heart attack in front of his 6 year old son. That image is still with me clearer than you can imagine and I wonder how the 6 year old dealt with that image growing up.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: LEP7MM
Geez Big Black,
I try to be nice and commend you on your resources and you get all defensive on me. Sheesh Then you attack a fellow poster in the forums about his grammar. How do we spell? Looking not too far back in one of your posts, you spell "where" as "were". Now look who's calling the kettle black. Not saying that I don't have my share of typo's as you can see the posts "where" I have gone back and either reworded something or corrected spelling.
Let's talk about opinions shall we? In the post that I complemented you on your resources, you simply stated someone else's "opinion". In this case, if a Supreme Court would find the officers in the Michigan case guilty of excessive force, this would simply be their opinion of what happened based on presented facts.
Another one of "your opinions" is right here in this very post. You know, the kids grammar and how he created a "total devastation" of the english language. You can search nearly every forum in this site and you will find the same grammar used by many. Perhaps we should get to know some of these people before we get too critical. Are you going to criticize people about how they look?
Geezzzzzzzzz LEP7MM LOL seems you are taking this way more seriously than I but I can continue as long as you wish.
As far as jumping on to another poster, I mistaken him for the the kid that everybody is bashing for his over the wall comments on the dead kid of the situation we have been debating, but it was a joke you know as "mywifesquad" and I traded a couple of jabs back and forth all in fun to this sometimes heated debat.
You found a typo for me, LOL You can bet I will wait for the English cops, as a matter of fact English is my poorest subject and even on the GRE I double my English scores with my Math. Amazing I got through graduate school but I did suffer in the English department and will take my punishment in that area, BTW I was making a joke.
Yes the supreme courts decisions are an opinion of several but their decisions are used as a basis in many defenses around the world as supporting information. But I have given many facts to support my side.
1. In the IA Department argument with someone I do not remember and do not care to look back I provide the official IA Department purpose from the Memphis Tennessee Police Department to show they do more then investigate internal problems.
2. On the argument if the criminal could be brought to justice without a chase, I provided several blurbs from the Michigan DNR (since the accident we have been debating happened in Michigan) officers who were able to give their citation without chasing their suspects.
3. On the re-vamping of departmental chase policies I provided a link to one of the largest police forces in the nation (L.A.P.D) who have changed their chase policies.
See I stated I have provided facts to support my argument but never stated all my post with opinions had facts in them
Do not try to put words to my mouth.
Posted by: BigBlack
“Ya&39;ll” know sometimes when your panties get in a wad a simple shift in your chair will release them and make you feel better.
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: LEP7MM... Quit quoting ...
Hey we all have our opinions and we have stumbled onto one I am very passionate about. If we ever meet I will buy you a beverage of your choice.
Keep the shinny side you good friend and happy trails.
Oh yea that&39;s "does" not "dies" LOL J/K but had to throw that one in.
Posted by: BigBlack
NJRaptor419,
Using advice from my friend LEP7MM I will not use the quote button but none of us have defended this child and I have stated many times that the kid should have been punished. We are debating the chase policy and if it cold be re-vamped to make it safer for everybody but still bring justice which could prevent such sad tragedies like this one.
If your cops "hit" an ATV to stop it, then the use of force then becomes use of deadly force because the cop intentionally uses force that could result in the death of the pursuant. Much different case and logic and look for laws to be change in your state soon with the "hit" when the Supreme Court is through making their decision on a few case in front of them.
BTW: Do you have kids? If so what would be your response if that were your kid, and don&39;t give me the, “My child would never…” story for they are kids and will do childish things.
Posted by: BigBlack
RaptorLegs,
I could do that but don't go wild on me! BR>
If you are ever in deep south GA look me up.
Posted by: BigBlack
mywifesquad, I respect your opinion and stance and that is what has made America so great and such a wonderful place to live. Of course I feel we can go over board with legislation and there must exist a happy medium and I feel our legislative branch is doing a good job and we as citizens are lucky to have the freedom to voice our opinions and sometimes we get our way and other times we do not.
One last analogy on the issue of looking at a scenario and then, developing new methods and rules to better it and make it safer.
Imagine football in the early day when they wore leather helmets. This was a sport that we all enjoy but combatants on the field of play were sustaining horrible injuries. Through the years we have improved the equipment and mandated that certain equipment must be worn to play. Has this changed the sport or the ultimate goal of the teams, no. We just looked at a situation and someone said; hey you know face mask would greatly reduce facial injuries and provide a safer environment for our players thus face mask rules were put in place.
Posted by: BigBlack
Mywifesquad,
"It is even possible it did not happen at all.”
You know I have considered this, as in any debate I try to fully support my stance and with contrary facts will change my stance. In my research I have look very hard to find this story to try and get more info so I could provide an intelligent argument on it specifically. Unable to find anything I have stated several times, "If the story is as given."
Now my ability to not find the story still does not make it fictional just that it is not online for me to read and study.
I am sorry for your loss and cannot imagine the hurt for I still have both my parents and dread the day I have to lay one to rest if it works out in that order.
Posted by: BigBlack
mywifesquad,
My wife is particularly good in the debates because of her womanly power. You know if she "ain't" happy nobody is! Of course during my undergrad I was taking several logic and critical thinking classes, you know the ones, "Is the tree really green,” where you question EVERYTHING. It was then my family and friends hated it when I got off on a tangent. I have since learned to control my desire to question everything but once in a while I hit a topic I become passionate over.
LEP7MM,
Atlanta is about 3hrs away but Savannah is closer and I frequent that place a lot.
Both of you and I are probably more alike than we realize and if you ever want to just BS about anything check us out in the "Spin." We have a lot of fun there but it is all fun and BS, I think over the last 7k post we have probably touched on every aspect of life.
Oh and my English woes really show up in there, again that is my worst subject.
Posted by: BigBlack
Gary,
I was a all right kid and never tangoed with the law but did do some things my parents did not know, so I must assume my child will have the same little secrets which will more than likely drive me crazy.
As a parent this is scary but I will share here:
During college orientation at one of our largest universities the parents were given their own private session while the kids were taken around campus. No lie, the speaker told the parents to never visit their kids unannounced. They told them that kids were going to be kids and an unannounced visit could cause more headache than its worth.
Lets face it when our kids reach their teens our ability to change their behavior is almost gone. It is the early years when we are able to instill good morals and beliefs. At age 18 what are you going to change?
Posted by: BigBlack
Quote
Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: BigBlack[/b At age 18 what are you going to change?
Where they live???
And their source of income
Posted by: BigBlack
The John Boy and Billy Big Show : THE BEER RUN
The Beer Run: No Hope
A classic true story from the Big Show Mailbag archives aired July, 1997
Dear John Boy & Billy:
As you can see, you've received another letter from one of your "captivated listeners." I wanted to write to let y'all know that not all prisoners are mean and dangerous -- some are merely stupid. After reading this you'll probably want to call Jimmy Spencer to tell him to look for a new nickname, because you have found the REAL "Mr. Excitement."
My story begins on a beautiful July day in 1995. I decided it was too nice a day for work, yet too hot to fish, so I opted to relax in the air conditioning, watch some TV, and enjoy a few cold beers. Several hours and about a case of beer later, I decided it was critical that I replenish my beer supply, and I was not going to let such minor details as not having a car or drivers license deter me. Someone was nice enough to allow me to use their 1976 Dodge -- no tag, bald tires, and a 6-cylinder engine -- to make my beer run in.
Upon leaving the local convenience store, a police officer got behind me and hit the blue light. As you may know, large quantities of beer tend to raise the testosterone level while lowering the intelligence quotient in the typical male drinker. So I decided -- the race was on! How did this go, you ask? Well...not too good.
A 20-year-old Dodge with a 6-cylinder and bald tires is not the car of choice for this type of activity, but I figured what I lacked in horsepower I could make up for with my driving prowess (and besides, you've got to run with what you brung to the track). I jumped out to an early lead, but my competition quickly closed the gap. He attempted to pass me on the low side (he darn sure wasn't gonna go high). but I successfully blocked the pass, and he had to fall back in line as we approached the turn. I lost it about halfway through turn one, and put 'er into the wall (actually it was a ditch, but it worked just as well). And I'll tell ya -- Spencer couldn't have done it any better.
Ever the quick thinker, I decided this would be a good time for a foot race. How did this go, you ask? Well, not too good. Being the beautiful day it was, I was wearing flip-flops. Not the ideal footwear for a race, especially when the participant wearing the flip-flops is drunk. At the end of the footrace, I decided a wrestling match was in order. Unfortunately for me, the cavalry had arrived by this time, and they entered the match without being tagged. As you can probably tell from the enclosed mug shot, the wrestling match didn't turn out too good either. However, I did feel somewhat vindicated when I puked in the backseat of Dick Tracy's squad car. (I really did.) Now, two years later, I'm about to finally make it home from my beer run. I have learned a few things:
a) Never drive anything with 6 cylinders and bald tires b) Always wear a good pair of shoes c) Buy beer by the keg
You know the saying "Life is short, play hard?" Okay then. Y'all keep em straight up thar -- Love ya, mean it.
Signed, Dale Darryl Waltrip Richard Petty Rusty Awesome Bill Irvan Gordon Earnhardt Smith Johnson Jr.
Posted by: BigBlack
I was going to alter the argued scenario to include a gun to see what that response was but I left it along.
Posted by: BigBlack
Gary,
It is funny how so many use this method as a speedometer. Not only is it dangerous but inaccurate as well. I have had several occasions where someone claimed their bike, quad, etc... would run bla bla. If it sounded unrealistic I would give them my GPS with a cleared "Max Speed" and tell them to put this in their shirt pocket and watch them as they do their "high speed" run. The GPS tells the truth and generally the rider has over exaggerated the top speed of their ride.
Posted by: BigBlack
No not here, I mean in the real world BR>
This is fantasy land where my quad is faster and blows away anything in question on a daily basis LOL.
Posted by: Bubba297
Almost all of us have been guilty of running at one time or another. At my age now I would not run, although I dont know if I would have put myself in that position either. I would have pushed the bike over to the side and went inside for a cup of coffe or something like that. If he would have come in and asked, I would have told him that I had been out riding but desperately needed gas and knew I shouldnt have been on the road. Maybe I would have got a ticket and maybe not. Honesty is always the best policy, but running can't lead to anything good.
Posted by: kemicalburns
your one more person helping giving the rest of us a bad name. aint kewl man
Posted by: kemicalburns
Listen our sport is under attack big time. Cars arent going anywhere but atvs sure can go to the wayside. they got the companys to stop building ATC's because they were dangerous right, to bad it was all rider error not the machine itself. its just more ammo for them is all.
Posted by: Bing
Quote
Originally posted by: mywifesquad
Quote
Originally posted by: motox26
You just can't let go of that can you, poor deprived child.hr>
Nope it is a character flaw, And I am not a poor, deprived, child, I am a upper middle class,(have you seen my list of toy's) 44 year old. LOL
can you post a pic of your Rupp!!
My buddy had one of those back in the early 80's,,,,,we wore that little bike out
Posted by: Bing
cool
brings back some shop class memories
Posted by: Bing
AHA
Posted by: Bing
alright,,,,I must come clean
In my younger years,,,I ran from the cops many times. Quads, streetbikes, cars,,,,you name it. I was also chased at high speeds about every time. I was never caught.
Man,,,,,I feel better now
img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif" border="0">img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif" border="0">
Posted by: Bing
Quote
Originally posted by: DrDune
Quote
Originally posted by: Bing
alright,,,,I must come clean
In my younger years,,,I ran from the cops many times. Quads, streetbikes, cars,,,,you name it. I was also chased at high speeds about every time. I was never caught.
Man,,,,,I feel better now
img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif" border="0">img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif" border="0">hr>
Bing you rebel you! how can I ever look up to you again?
Just playing man ..... you lucky, a brown man like my self runs, and they call the national guard on a mutha f***er. That's why I never ran, fear of having a rocket launcher up my arse.
ouch!!!!
Im sure if they knew you were the Dr,,,they would leave you alone.
actually,,,most of the running from the cops was done in the woods behind my friends house,,,,usually with keg in hand
Posted by: KGB
JTY2K, your a donkey
I am involved, as a member or BRC, ASA, Utah ATV, ect. And we are always having to explain the idiots like you.
Thanks for taking some of or valuable time we like to spend cleaning up trails, educating children, and raising money for charity.
We all appreciate your stupidity. Grow up, or I am going to tell your daddy to sell your quad......
Posted by: BlackRaptor
Quote
Originally posted by: RaptorRider619
Good riddance to that 15 year old idiot and I hope he is rotting in hell for being such a dumba$$. Those cops were not at fault in the least bit and I applaud them for not saving him while he was freezing to death in that water! That kid got what he had coming. I'll bet he wont make that mistake again!img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif" border="0">
Raptorrider you are total moron.
How in the hell can you say that? Thats kids life you're talking about rotting in hell.
Sure the kid was in the wrong but you are WAY out of line saying what you said.
Not cool
Posted by: Scootergptx
Congratulations for putting you and everyone else on the road at risk.
Posted by: Scootergptx
Quote
Originally posted by: moldycheese
Quote
Originally posted by: Scootergptx
Congratulations for putting you and everyone else on the road at risk.
hes not puting n e one else at risk, hes puting himself at risk. think about it, if he hits a car (say a midsize) whats going to happen? the quad will hit the car and maybe dent to bumper or something, and he'll go flying over the car and get run over. who gets hurt here? JTY2K, that who.
OK, he said the raod was wet and he could slide better. Sliding doesn't mean controlling. The officer that is chasing him in his car will have less control on wet pavement. If he was on a public street, then it's safe to assume the public may be using it. Add speed. Now let's put your son or daughter on the side of the road, just minding their own business. Tell me then, he has put no one but himself at risk. If he only hits another car, his insurance will not cover the damages (operating ATV illegally). Who then is at risk of having to pay to fix a car they didn't wreck?
Posted by: Yamaha660R
Posted by: Raptorlegs
If we are going to endanger lives, then the risk of endangering the suspect, officer and bystanders should outweigh the risks of letting the suspect go. Even someone driving recklessly, I can see making every effort to get off the street. BUT, should the officer shoot out his tires because some guy on a quad crossed a street into a gas station? Where's the REAL crime? Where did he endanger the public? Who did that harm and how does it justify risking lives or damage to a patrol car?
99% of the kids that do this, do not understand the consequences. And I would be willing to bet that most are so scared afterwards they'll never try it again.
Let's stick to busting real crime, like jaywalkers!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: LEP7MM
We as parents, are responsible to be positive role models and bring our kids up in a structured environment.
LOL! Whatever man. I had the best role models you can imagine and I raised friggin hell when I was in high school. You can't lock your kids in a closet.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
All I gotta say is Womens Lib was truly the downfall of society.hr>
I hear ya! Being pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen wasn't so bad. All their movement did was force 2 to work for the same pay one used to make.
Be sure to slap your momma next time you see her!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
No tell me what did womens lib do but Put the prostitutes indoors? LMAO seriously though about the cops. if your a wrong doer you will never like em. if you live your life in a decent fashion you wont mind them. Hell i just checked my driving record !!! SPOT FREE BABY well at least thats what insurance sees. but the patrol car computer. Oh dam. Im just dumb enough to stop i guess hr>
I struggle because things nobody cared about 10-15 years ago are major issues today. I'll always have a little rebel in me. Just hope I never get chased!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: motox26
Although I do believe in teaching children the bible, that doesn't mean they are going to turn out well just because they were brought up in a church. Do you have any idea how many kids were brought up in my church, that are going out doing horrible things afterwards, and mommy and daddy think they are just little angels. And on the flip side I know some kids with really rough upbringings and they are really good people.
I think raising them with guidance and knowlege of good and bad has an effect on a child growing up, but I don't believe that is going to make them a good or bad person. It really depends on what is in the individuals heart IMO.
I believe the best thing you can do, is put what you want them to learn in front of them, and let them decide there beliefs. Forcing someone to do something only pushes them away in most cases!
I agree. One of the wildest kids I knew was a preachers son.
Also, the law is written to presume innocence. So excessive force in an investigative situation is uncalled for in my opinion, unless a suspect provokes the officer.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: motox26
What if someone tries to dodge him and hits a tree, car, etc.
Or what if the kid on the atv runs over a pedestrian or even a child on a bike.
That's exactly why the cop should have backed off. The pursuit only endangered other and for what? Crossing a public street! Whoopie!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
It's just like the car chases. If they back off a little, the suspect usually descreases their speed.
Not saying let him go. Again the risk of a chase should outweigh the risk of letting the suspect go. Not true crime was committed up to that point. He's was not a threat to the public until he panicked and ran.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
I think somebody spiked the coffee prior to me typing that!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Glad you could read through th typo's!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: RaptorRider619
Good riddance to that 15 year old idiot and I hope he is rotting in hell for being such a dumba$$. Those cops were not at fault in the least bit and I applaud them for not saving him while he was freezing to death in that water! That kid got what he had coming. I'll bet he wont make that mistake again!img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif" border="0">
I'm at a complete loss looking at the hate that went into writing that. You should be ashamed. Life is a precious gift.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: BigBlack If we ever meet I will buy you a beverage of your choice.
Usually do Natural Light, but since your buying I'll take a Sam Adams!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: NJRaptor419
Jeez, generally, I don't get political, but how many liberals in this thread defending the poor innocent kid(WHO BROKE THE LAW AND DESERVED TO BE CHASED!!!!!!).
HA! I'm the biggest conservative in the world but I can't see chasing a kid for crossing the street to fuel his quad. How can you even compare that to someone stealing a car? But even so, I value life more than a vehicle. Well.......a Porche might be a tough call! BR>
Plus nobody said let him go. He deserved to be punished. Just catch him by different means, if possible.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: Bing
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Originally posted by: DrDune
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Originally posted by: Bing
alright,,,,I must come clean
In my younger years,,,I ran from the cops many times. Quads, streetbikes, cars,,,,you name it. I was also chased at high speeds about every time. I was never caught.
Man,,,,,I feel better now
img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif" border="0">img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif" border="0">hr>
Bing you rebel you! how can I ever look up to you again?
Just playing man ..... you lucky, a brown man like my self runs, and they call the national guard on a mutha f***er. That's why I never ran, fear of having a rocket launcher up my arse.
ouch!!!!
Im sure if they knew you were the Dr,,,they would leave you alone.
actually,,,most of the running from the cops was done in the woods behind my friends house,,,,usually with keg in hand
hr>
I ran from the cops with a keg in back one time. Ruined a brand new paint job driving through mesquite. Was a lot more scared of what my parents were going to do to me than that sheriff. I think he let me go out of pity.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
You say that, but I have done the same thing, Its just one of those things that happens without thinking about it, because you would rather try to get away than play the waiting game with the cop to see if he will leave first, or leave first, and get a ticket, so I cant say anything except........
Posted by: catchmeifucan
People run from cops all the time in cars, motorcycles, and other stuff, so whats the difference? Idiots are idiots, it doesnt matter what they are riding, someone will always run.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
Call it a dumb mistake. He might have ran, even though it wasnt the correct thing to do, but I dont know anybody in the WORLD who is perfect. So before you come on and yell at him, think of all the stupid sh!t you have done in your life.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
I completely understand, but like I said, ppl arent perfect, so there is no way around this. We can prevent our sport's demise by avoiding police conferentation, so thats what we need to do, but he screwed up, and all Im saying is let's not bitch at him for it.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
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Originally posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: catchmeifucan
People run from cops all the time in cars, motorcycles, and other stuff, so whats the difference? Idiots are idiots, it doesnt matter what they are riding, someone will always run.
So are you sayin ur an idiot?
Yes
Posted by: catchmeifucan
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: catchmeifucan
People run from cops all the time in cars, motorcycles, and other stuff, so whats the difference? Idiots are idiots, it doesnt matter what they are riding, someone will always run.
So are you sayin ur an idiot?
moto26, That is what it sound's like to me. Good call.
catchmeifyoucan, I am not sure what made you the bigger idiot, running from the cop's or coming here to brag about it.
Ok, Im going to re-word that last reply of mine as I dont want to cause trouble. mywifesquad, ok, like he said, I didnt start this threadBR>So, I dont know what makes you the bigger idiot, not reading the posts, or replying before you did
Posted by: catchmeifucan
Oh, and its catchmeifUcan.....there isn't a YOU in it.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
One more thing......what am I gonna rum from a cop from? My bike isnt running. And I can already see it now, one of you is goin to say........."well maybe it should stay that way." hahaha, beat ya to it. Well, I would like to take this post as a time to apologize to the rest of the ATVers on this forum for acting rudely, I just cant stand it when people argue...BR>so, Sorry peeps.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
Hahahaa, I was thinking about how you could do that
Posted by: catchmeifucan
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: catchmeifucan
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: catchmeifucan
People run from cops all the time in cars, motorcycles, and other stuff, so whats the difference? Idiots are idiots, it doesnt matter what they are riding, someone will always run.
So are you sayin ur an idiot?
moto26, That is what it sound's like to me. Good call.
catchmeifyoucan, I am not sure what made you the bigger idiot, running from the cop's or coming here to brag about it.
Ok, Im going to re-word that last reply of mine as I dont want to cause trouble. mywifesquad, ok, like he said, I didnt start this threadBR>So, I dont know what makes you the bigger idiot, not reading the posts, or replying before you didhr>
catchmeifucan, My apologies, I replied to this as I was leaving work and aparantly did not read it very thoroughly, and yes I have proven that I am possibly just as big of an idiot as JTY2K. Very Sorry!!! MWQ
motox26, sorry for involving you in my stupidity.
MNWolverine01, Yes CAREFULLY and slower next time, my bad.
Yeah, eveyone makes mistakes, I hope all is kool between all of us.
Posted by: catchmeifucan
This is going way too far, i believe ALL of you have made extremely reasonable points, and this could be argued on and on for a very long time. I for one think it is amazing how inteligent some of these people are on this forum, and that you can argue so well, but this is goin to turn into a fight, and the thread will be locked.
BTW, I went riding on my dad's trike today in a field with a huge empty pond.......LOTS of fun!!!! Its awesome to ride the walls of the pondimg src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Posted by: catchmeifucan
Oh, I forgot to mention, the pond is full of snow, so I guess its not empty......and when the snow melts.....GIANT MUD HOLE
Posted by: catchmeifucan
Jeez guys, this is turning into the Daily Spin Zone
Posted by: catchmeifucan
If deer can do it we can do itimg src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Posted by: Bradracer18
I agree with bubba on this one.........walk home if you have to.......or take the ticket......next time use a darn gas can!!!!
Posted by: Bradracer18
I agree........I haven't even read all of this, but that quote above just shows you have no respect for life......wether it be yours or anyone else's..........have some mercy, you should never wish death upon someone.
Posted by: Vinson581
i got gas at a gas station once, but i did about 7mph on the shoulder, about 1/8mi down the road, in MAINE. and it is by a big legal riding area, and the cops are leanyant because they ride themselves, kinda a town where if someone has a problem you will help them regardless of their job, everyone doesnt try to bust eachothers chops for stupid things, now down in NY, you pretty much have to run, its the only way you keep your bike, and if you are registured, cover your plate!!!! i aam not condoneing running but i worked hard for my property, and when a cop wants to ticket me for riding on land i have permission to be on that is wrong.
Posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: catchmeifucan
People run from cops all the time in cars, motorcycles, and other stuff, so whats the difference? Idiots are idiots, it doesnt matter what they are riding, someone will always run.
So are you sayin ur an idiot?
Posted by: motox26
Well said!
Posted by: motox26
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catchmeifucan, My apologies, I replied to this as I was leaving work and aparantly did not read it very thoroughly, and yes I have proven that I am possibly just as big of an idiot as JTY2K. Very Sorry!!! MWQ
motox26, sorry for involving you in my stupidity.
MNWolverine01, Yes CAREFULLY and slower next time, my bad.
Yeah, I have enough stupidity of my own! LOL
Posted by: motox26
I don' believe the parents should be punished, Im sure they are being ptu thru enough misery right now by the loss of there son. While I do beleive parents of these days need to be more responcible for there children, you can't expect them to be able to keep tabs on there children 24/7.
Before my father passed he was a police officer. I used to ask him if he was in any high speed chases. He alway said jokingly it would be fun, but to much is in stake. He would say that if he would keep pursuing the chase if the criminal would not pull over, he wasn't going to pull over until he was forced or injured. Not only would he be endangering the criminal, but himself and innocent people walking or driving down the street in a potential accident. Like bigblack said, usually all the evidence they need to know who it is only takes a little bit. Plus if a kid is riding a quad to a gas staion, it probably is a smaller town and not some new york city streets, so more than likely it is one of those everbody know everybody type deals.
Posted by: motox26
as far as pointing the finger at someone, there really isn't no one to blame in my opinion. It is a trajedy that happed, you can look at it from all angles,
-the cop shouldn't of pushed the envelope
-the parents should have kept tabs on him
-the kid should of just excepted his punishment
In the end it really doesn't matter, but the only good that comes from accidents and tragedy's such as this, is that maybe we can learn from it.
One thing I don't understand is, why do kids think it is cool to get on here and brag about it. So what you got away from a cop. I have to I have been guilty of running into the woods on a quad when I was younger and being places I shouldn't of been, but it is not something I am proud of either.
Posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: MrDumass
Ya know what pisses me off about that story, is the fact that no-one even tried to help save the kid. Ya know the kid didn't just die suddenly.
I can honestly say that I could not sit and watch an innocent person die without doing anything. There is no way I could wake up everymoring knowing that I let a person die when I could have prevented it.
Posted by: motox26
Although I do believe in teaching children the bible, that doesn't mean they are going to turn out well just because they were brought up in a church. Do you have any idea how many kids were brought up in my church, that are going out doing horrible things afterwards, and mommy and daddy think they are just little angels. And on the flip side I know some kids with really rough upbringings and they are really good people.
I think raising them with guidance and knowlege of good and bad has an effect on a child growing up, but I don't believe that is going to make them a good or bad person. It really depends on what is in the individuals heart IMO.
I believe the best thing you can do, is put what you want them to learn in front of them, and let them decide there beliefs. Forcing someone to do something only pushes them away in most cases!
Posted by: motox26
What if someone tries to dodge him and hits a tree, car, etc.
Or what if the kid on the atv runs over a pedestrian or even a child on a bike.
Posted by: motox26
And if you have read all of this, why chase him and put people at high risk? When more than likely they can find out who it is and go to his house!
Posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: RaptorRider619
Good riddance to that 15 year old idiot and I hope he is rotting in hell for being such a dumba$$. Those cops were not at fault in the least bit and I applaud them for not saving him while he was freezing to death in that water! That kid got what he had coming. I'll bet he wont make that mistake again!img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif" border="0">
I usually don't get bothered on here, but your a sick fu#k man! How could you even say something like that. What if that was you? I mean really, to bad you ain't around here so I could knock that sh!t of a brain out of your head!
Posted by: motox26
You just can't let go of that can you, poor deprived child.
Posted by: motox26
mywifesquad, that wasn't directed towards you.
Posted by: motox26
LMAO!!!
Posted by: Just4Kicks
I'm nearly speachless after reading that comment...BR>
I'm hoping that was writen in hast without giving much thought and that now RR619 is thinking about what he wrote and saying to himself, "gee, maybe that was a little over the top". If so, use the edit button. If not, you may want to move to a place more suited for your idea of justice system....say like Iraq!
Posted by: Just4Kicks
DrDune
You sure know how to light up...urrr umm...lighten up a situation. That's some funny sh!t right there.img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
Posted by: Heywood
whats wrong with you guys?
boo hoo .. he's gonna make us all look bad .. boo hoo ... big brother is going to take my quad away.
ya bunch of freakin babies. stop being so gutless and stand up for yourselves.
maybe he is giving the public reason to despise ATV's, but what are you doing to combat that attitude? NOTHING!
you sit back and hope that nobody sees you riding your quad, running like roaches anytime the lights shine on you.
have you forgotten that you are citizens too? and that your vote counts just as much as those who dont like you tearing up the landscape with your evil machines?
if you dont agree with the publics opinion of quads and riders, do something to change it. form a club and get involved in public events within your communities.
take part in local events like parades and such. offer your services to the local sheriffs department for search and rescue efforts. even if they turn you down, at least you offered. in other words, show yourselves in a good light and stop hiding.
cause if you're hiding, it must be because you think youre doing something wrong, so maybe the public is right.
sure that guy is an idiot for running like that. that doesnt mean that everyone on four wheels should hide.
grow up. get involved or get out. but dont gripe about anyone else making waves if you do nothing to counter them.
-heywood-
Posted by: Heywood
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Originally posted by: sweetquads
We are doing something, we are doing the only thing we can do. Since he doesnt live next door and we dont know his name or address, all we can do is try to convince him and anybody else that reads this, that his actions harm an already volatile situation regarding ATV's. What we do as a group determines which areas gets closed down next.
ATVing is a sport where the stupidity of the few outweighs the smartness of the many. Believe me there are groups out there that keep track of EVERY single negative ATV incident, th
