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Posted by: Tree Farmer
Some confusion exists regarding the application of solenoids to winches. Warn typically provides an in-line solenoid (Single Pole Single Throw, or SPST) as a circuit breaker. On the Warn A2500, a Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) solenoid (called a "Contactor" by Warn), controlled by a Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT) switch, is added and used to both power and to control the direction of rotation of the winch.
Superwinch also markets solenoid kits, usually used with larger-capacity winches. These kits have considerable bulk and weight; mounting them on an ATV may be a challenge.
The advantage of solenoid-controlled winches include potentially lower resistance than a manual reversing switch, meaning more juice to pull with; also, a light-gauge cable can be used with the low-current SPDT control switch, permitting remote operation of the winch.
I have been in search of a suitable DPDT solenoid for upgrading winches with manual reversing switches (like the Warn rotary switch, or the Superwinch rocker switch).
When asked, "Do you catalog a 12-volt, double pole double throw solenoid, capable of handling over 100 amps?", most electrical supply parts countermen either shurg, run screaming from the room, or call their buddies together, saying, "Hey guys, you'll never believe this. Listen! Now, fellow, just ask them what you asked me, a minute ago." This interrogation is followed by gales of laughter and enthusiastic jeering at the rube who asked for the unattainable part.
The performance demands are great for this solenoid, because winches pull so doggone many amps. If a sufficiently robust solenoid can be found, will it have the shunt capability, needed for dynamic braking of small permanent-magnet winch motors? Without a shunt, the winch will "coast," reducing control for operations like raising snowplow blades. (Manual winch switches typically have a shunt circuit built in; when in the "off" position, a dead short is placed across the winch motor terminals.)
Size is cricitcal--no one wants a solenoid too big to mount, as in requiring its own trailer.
But, don't despair! I've just received an (800) number, a part number, and a price ($20) for a promising piece of "electrical power management hardware," a 12-volt DPDT solenoid that might do the trick. Poster aczr2k asked me about this gadget; assuming others may be interested also, I'll check it out and report right here.
Tree Farmer
Posted by: Tree Farmer
Your ideas should be adapted by the ATV winch manufacturers, trailboss450! The PVC pipe housing offers an advantage over typical sheet-metal winch solenoid boxes; the PVC pipe appears more water-resistant, and possibly can be made waterproof. Also, your rig is probably more shock-resistant than the store-bought setup (strong PVC pipe and the buss bar connectors), and mountable almost anywhere. Thanks for "transferring technology!"
Tree Farmer
Posted by: Tree Farmer
"Some confusion exists . . ."
You prove my point, 4wheelindakota.
The solenoid provided by Warn with A2000 winches merely interrupts or connects the hot wire from the battery to the control switch, a manually-operated reversing switch.
The solenoid power and control systems discussed, like the "contactor" on the Warn A2500, powers and reverses the winch through solenoid relay contacts instead of the manual reversing switch. I mentioned the advantages of this system above.
In fact, the only difference between the Warn A2000 and A2500 is the electrical power and control system, I think.
Tree Farmer
Posted by: Tree Farmer
Jaybee, the Superwinch "Handheld Remote Switch Kit, 12'," Part # 1515A, will convert your X1 to solenoid power and control operation. However, the rig is pretty expensive (I imagine it costs around $ 80 or so), and the solenoid box is kinda bulky and heavy; finding a place to mount it might be a problem.
From some of the other posts on this topic, you can see other approaches and solutions--Trailboss450 fabricated a custom solenoid rig with a pair of SPDT solenoids; Kevin_Staton has an ingenious rig using four automobile starter solenoids; MNT mentions a Cycle Country rig (the X1 pulls 200 amps at full draw); while aczr2k and I seek a DPDT solenoid to do the trick--be patient, when we find one, we'll post the details here.
My own rig consists of a Superwinch X2, 1515A Handheld Remote Switch Kit, 12', AND a Superwinch handlebar-mounted rocker switch, wired parallel to the remote switch socket (not as easy as it sounds; had to splice in a SPST rocker switch, mounted on the solenoid box and labeled "Local" (closed) and "Remote" (open), in one of the parallel wires to defeat the shunt in the handlebar-mounted rocker switch when using the remote switch).
You could use any SPDT switch, like the "Normally Off" momentary toggle switch Trailboss450 mentions for the handlebar control; I used a Superwinch rocker because it was available and conveniently mountable, although for this application, the shunt feature complicates installation.
Well, finally, I think I have the best of all worlds--a remote capability when I want one, plus a handlebar-mounted rocker switch within easy reach of my left thumb, hooked up to a 3000 # winch.
Yet, I'm interested in finding the elusive 12-volt DPDT solenoid capable of handling over 100 amps for possible upgrade of winches yet unborn. I'll let you know if I find it!
Tree Farmer
Posted by: Tree Farmer
I ordered two SPDT 200-amp continuous duty rated 12V solenoid relays (about $ 20 each), part # 92-20172, from (800) 468-5055. Now, to my "secret laboratory," and, let the experiments begin!
Tree Farmer
Posted by: Tree Farmer
Hey, Kevin Staton, that's your cue! I remember the URL accessing those excellent wiring diagrams you sent me, showing how four SPST automobile starter solenoid relays can be used to control and power a winch.
Tree Farmer
Posted by: Tree Farmer
Robh, I think both you and Kevin are on top of the situation--using auto starter solenoid relays, you've chosen some really reliable hardware--how many times are starters engaged; how few times does anyone have trouble with a starter solenoid? As long as you can make good connections and solid mounts (obviously, with enough room), the starter relays ought to work just fine.
You and Kevin used four SPST relays, Trailboss450 and Superwinch use two DPDT relays; I'm beginning to agree with the parts countermen--an adequate DPDT relay is hard to find!
Tree Farmer
Posted by: kevin_staton
I agree. I have a setup with 4 SPST solenoids that has worked great. It was a nightmare to wire the first time (I've got the boiled battery and fused wires to prove it!)
trailboss450, I will be getting in touch with you when I get next machine.
Here's another question for you guys: what kind of switch do you use to control the solenoid(s)? I've got a dual-throw, center-off momentary rocker switch made for a kitchen stove mounted in the "pod" of the handlebars. It's not as waterproof as I would like and I'm worried about dirt and dust getting inside. Has anyone found anything better?
Posted by: kevin_staton
TF,
You asked for it, you got it: http://www.wms1.com/forestcity/forestcity98/pages98/pm_4_sol.html
A word of caution, if you are going to try to do this, do not connect the main power leads to the battery until you have verified everything with a continuity tester or volt meter.
I have been using mine for over a year with crimp-on connectors on all the terminal posts and the only problem that I've had was a wire coming loose from the rocker switch.
Posted by: Jaybee
I have a superwinch X1 and I would like to mount some type of switch on the handle bar that is easier to use than the ratary switch that comes with it. The customer service at superwinch did say that the X1 draws to many amps for the rocker switch that they sell. They were not very helpful. Can anyone give me any suggestions?
jaybee
Posted by: BigRed450
Would a fender mount starter solenoid work off an older Ford product? They are cheap, easy to find and are the same size (look the same) as the solenoid I got with my Warn winch. Not sure if they are SPST or DPDT.
Posted by: BigRed450
OK, OK, You've peaked my interest. Where or who can I get a schematic for this electronic set-up? I am very interested in seeing how others have wired up the solenoids and I am certainly interested in getting rid of the Warn, hard to find a good place for, rotary switch. Can anyone help here?
Does the DPDT solenoid look like two solenoids stacked in one casing with 4 large gauge cable terminals and 4 small gauge switch terminals? When I worked in an auto supply warehouse (20 yrs ago)I came across this type of solenoid. They where outdated at the time and where trying to get rid of them cheap. Could this have been the elusive DPDT solenoid? If it is, had I have know they're worth today, I would have bought the works.
Posted by: BigRed450
This afternoon I took paper and pencil and figured out the wiring for the 4 spst solenoids and did up a full color schematic on the computer. This schematic does not incorporate a remote switch, but only a single spst center off toggle.
The schematic is saved as a jpeg.
Just checked out a picture of the DPDT soenoid box for the Warn A2500, what a beast! I would probably have as hard a time trying to hide that as I would 4 SPST's or 2 SPDT's.
Posted by: like2wheel
The Warn "contactor" from the A2500 is actually a fork-lift piece.Unfortunately, they want about $125 for this.It seems it will do all that without all the bulk & wiring of the multiple solenoid designs.
Any lift-truck guys out there that can identify this piece & maybe provide a more reasonable source?
Posted by: aczr2k
Tree Farmer, my post must have been deleted, but I am glad you seen it before it was. Thanks for the info and let me know what you find out. I called around again today and I seem to get the same answers/comments as you. I am posted on the electrical engineering newsgroup as well. You can email me if you like at bchristianson@astound.net
Thanks again
aczr2k
Posted by: aczr2k
Tree Farmer I called the # you emailed me and yes it was like most places, they get the solenoid from Superwinch and you need two of them to make it work, it consists of two SPDT solenoids linked together. I also called Prestolyte they have a DPDT solenoid for a forklift but the price is $350, more than the Warn. I will continue my search and let you know the results.
Aczr2k
Posted by: robh
hey tree farmer, its really interesting that the 4 ford starter relays is brought up. i gotta tell ya that i made suce a setup for on of my buddys work truck. He had taken an old transit bus and made a work truck for his lawn spraying equip. so he took all the seats out and had some one make him a really kick "draw bridge door" in the rear of the bus. he then took a 1/20 th hp 12 volt dc mortor with a gear reducer to lift and lower it. it worked but it took forever to raise and lower the door, so he bought a 1/5 hp motor and a smaller gear to use and it wouldnt work. so he asked me to look at it and i came up with solution that all the switches and wire he was feeding it with was just too damm small, so i came up with the idea to use 4 ford solinoids, well after some crafty ideas from both of us i made it work after a couple of days. the door went from taking a min and a half to raise down to 10 secs. he figs that he can hit a couple of more yards a day now , so this setup really works, the only thing that i can add to this post with this setup it could cause a prob using this many relays , so much to fail, but after a summer of heavy use(compared to us using a winch)all is well in the back of his truck, good luck boys
Posted by: trailboss450
TreeFarmer, what I have been using is similar to the setup that Superwinch sells as an accessory. It is 2 SPDT units used in conjunction. The parts I buy are actually sold as golf cart reversing switches. They are rated for 100 amps continuous. I get them through a local supplier for $8.95
I prewire the entire system do many of the connections with a "buss bar" rather than wire. I then install them in a PVC tube (approx 3 x 8 inches)and seal the ends leaving enough wire to reach the battery, the winch and light gauge wires to to the control switch to
minimize any exposed connections.
This setup has worked flawlessly for me for a number of years and I have used the same solenoids for about 7 years now. I also have installed it on 20 or so other quads with only one "comeback" due to a defective solenoid.
It has been a less costly alternative to buying
the Warn contactor. (which by the way they sell separately for 104 dollars I am told)
Trailboss450
Posted by: trailboss450
The Ford solenoid is a SPST type and is not able to switch current direction (polarity)by itself.
It is the same as the solenoids used on some Warn models but not the same as the CONTACTOR type switch used on the 2500 Warn...You could very well configure this type to work but you would need four of them to control the switching of polarity necessary to change winch direction.
Trailboss450
Posted by: trailboss450
I use a Cole-Hearse brand momentary switch.
Part# 55021-07. I also put a "toggle boot" on the switch. Part # M81264 also Cole-Hearse brand. Both should be available at most Auto stores such as Napa or others. Another thing I like to do is make a switch guard to prevent accidental activation of the switch.
Posted by: MNT
Cycle Country used the "self-contained" controller years ago. I think they still do. A nice small rocker switch (small wires) mounts to the handlebar and the high current relay box is mounted elsewhere. Mine has been working flawlessly for 4 years. Give 'em a call.
Posted by: 4wheelindakota
What am I missing here?
What's the problem with the unit that came with the winch?
Mine works fine. Could it be better? How? More power / less drain? What?
BTW, I mounted my Warn 2000 solenoid in the dry box and the on/off switch is in the seat release lever well, where it can't be bumped.
