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Posted by: Slinger
According to free hearing test's website, a 20 gauge with a 28" barrel is louder than a 12 gauge of the same barrel length by about one decibel. That could be attributed to error in the meter or marked measurements but at least both guns are fairly close in noise emittance.
A scope for home defense dosen't seem necessary, but I do like the eotech on my pistol. I also like one of the other member's idea about a scout type mounting. I've wanted to get a Ruger compact with a cantilever mount for a while. Might just do that before hunting season. Like you, I like to do a lot of shooting, too.
Posted by: okiedude
Originally posted by: boss400
i found that the bushnell elite scope are by far the clearest scopes for the money. i got a 3x9x40 browning scope for $164.00 on e-bay. it is made on the 3200 elite but it has fully coated lens compared to the 3200 multi coated witch makes it about like the 4200 just does not have the rain guard. i looked throught a vIII leupold a nikon and a zest and the browing was the clearest to me. the browning is not being made anymore but you can still find them the 4200 has a 3x9x40 around $200.00 go to www.swfa.com
I agree 100%. I have 3 3200 Elite's and 2 4200 Elites, along with 3 pair of Elite binoc's. Awesome!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: SPD522
For a Mini 14, I wouldn't put a big scope on either. A red dot would work quite well for the distances you anticipate shooting. For a really slick all around optic for $200, check out the new DMS from Millett. It is a 1x4 power scope. The center reticle is an illuminated circle about 65 MOA and a 1 MOA dot in the center. There are horizontal lines for leveling and a single verticle line on the bottom. On 1 power, use it as a red dot and it is very fast. For longer shots, turn it to 4 power. A friend has one on his AR15 for 3 gun competitions. It works great. I plan on getting one too for my DPMS AP4 .308.
Craig
Posted by: JohnO
Might also check out a scout scope. It isn't so much a high magnification device as much as it is a very good iron sight. Usually 2x, mounts far down the barrel so it isn't in your face. About halfway between a rifle scope and a pistol scope. The idea is - keep both eyes open, so you have good peripheral vision, and in the center of your vision is this 2x circle with cross hairs.
I have one on a Henry Big Boy in .44 mag, and it works very well. You still have the quick handling of a short levergun, just a lot better sighting. Leupold turns out their M8 scope in scout configuration, or you can save some money and find an old Redfield Frontier - usually one or two on ebay in the $80-90 range.
Posted by: 2TV
You can get the idea of what a holographic sight looks like here...
Posted by: swampyjunior
I have a set of fiber optic sight on my "bear defense shotgun" not that you would have time to actually aim the thing. The front one is Blue the rear is Yellow. It is the old Yellow and Blue make Green trick. All I know is after taking it to the range and shooting it You can easily tell when its lined up. IT would easily work at ranges out to 100yds.
I prefer 12ga. 00-buck and a slug both 3inch. Haven't had to use it and hopefully never will.
SJ
Posted by: CaptainQuint
With your application I wouldn't buy a conventional rifle scope at all.
I would go with a reflex type of scope like an EOTech Tactical Holosight such as their 510 model or a 552 which has a ballistic reticle for .223.
They're not inexpensive but they're perfect for fast shooting at ranges under 200 yards. If you're shooting in situations like that they'll really outperform a conventional scope. I've went to them on a couple of my mid caliber semi-auto rifles and I love them. They also make for a deadly brush gun for deer.
Just make sure to get the EOTech models that take AA batteries. They have some that take N size batteries. Those are a pain. I got rid of mine and went with the models that take AAs.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
I have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues about using birdshot as a self defense load. It is a common refrain heard by even respected firearms instructors but it flies in the face of everything we've learned from 40+ years of wound ballistics research and the supposed safety factor is marginal.
Birdshot is not lethal enough to be used in a defensive situation. It doesn't incapacitate quickly enough. It does not penetrate deep enough or produce a large enough wound channel or cause enough organ damage. Birdshot just does not have the sectional density to get deep enough to cause enough damage to critical body organs. It will cause massive tissue damage but not the type of damage that it needs to.
What does seem to be the best blend of performance without over penetration is #1 buckshot. That is backed up with tests in ordnance gelatin and from wound ballistics research from those credible researchers like Fackler and MacPhearson.
As for shotguns indoors, they are hideously loud. So are rifles. So are handguns for that matter. You'll lose some hearing if you shoot inside especially long guns. Also measure inside your house. Take those measurements to the range with birdshot and your defensive loads and start shooting paper. You will most likely find that in most cases inside your house your "scatter gun" - isn't. It is shooting like a big awkward handgun launching one big lump of shot. Even with it down to legal length and shooting the longest conceivable shot inside your home you will probably be surprised how tiny that spread is. Something to to take into consideration.
Next take that shotgun and move through your house. Try to move around corners with it. Try to clear a room. Try to get to your children's room from your bedroom. See how difficult it is to maneuver that long awkward shotgun even if it is at the shortest legal barrel length and equipped with pistol grips(aren't those a gas to shoot by the way? Everyone needs one of those).
My point is that it is very easy for an assailant to grab the muzzle of a shotgun and wrestle it away from you indoors. A person has to be very aware of that.
Just some food for thought.
Nice to see good knowledgeable guys on here helping each other out.
Posted by: CaptainQuint
Originally posted by: 2TV
You can get the idea of what a holographic sight looks like here...
That's pretty good illustration 2TV.
I know when I put one on my reworked AK which I use as a utility gun I was amazed. It made it so much faster and accurate shooting. In heavy brush and in the woods it's deadly for deer. First year I had it I took all my tags with it. I took 2 does with it this year.
It seems to be so much faster and you see more of what is happening and you don't lose focus on the target. You just bring the weapon up, look at the target, see the reticle and pull the trigger. I just can't acquire iron sights or even ghost rings that fast. A scope isn't even close. For close in work I'm a fanatic about my EOtech sights. I'll add that people I've let try them really like them too.
Posted by: boss400
i found that the bushnell elite scope are by far the clearest scopes for the money. i got a 3x9x40 browning scope for $164.00 on e-bay. it is made on the 3200 elite but it has fully coated lens compared to the 3200 multi coated witch makes it about like the 4200 just does not have the rain guard. i looked throught a vIII leupold a nikon and a zest and the browing was the clearest to me. the browning is not being made anymore but you can still find them the 4200 has a 3x9x40 around $200.00 go to www.swfa.com
Posted by: tencubed
Few questions. What do you use the rifle for? Target, varmints, plinking or home defense maybe? What kind of ranges do you normally shoot? Under 200 or longer?
How are your eyes? Are they like mine and not so good or young and agile? Makes a big difference in the kind of aid you need.
Do you shoot in low light and/or inclement weather or are you primarily out in full daylight and sunshine?
Last but not the least important, just how accurate do you want to be?
Posted by: tencubed
CpnQ nailed that one IMO. For your kind of shooting with your good eyes this would be my first choice. Second would be a 2X Leopold or one of the other better brands, there are several models that would work well, but be sure to look them over in a store and see how things look thru them.
If you go with the Nikon or other cheap scopes you will never get rid of the parallax or have a clear, light gathering scope. Wasted money IMO.
Just a comment on the 223 as a home defense weapon. This is a powerful rifle with potential for a lot of range and penetration. Stopping power, depending on the bullets being used, can range from very good to marginal. Where the person is hit makes a big difference as well.
One of the major drawbacks to this rifle for home defense is if you have a through and through or miss that bullet is going to hit something before it stops. It may go thru a couple of walls and hit your neighbor in the unmentionables or just bury itself in a tree but something is going to get damaged. Could happen well over a mile away.
My personal choice for a home defense weapon is a 20 gauge pump action shotgun with #6 low base shells. Very effective at house length ranges but usually not lethal beyond 40 yards or so. The big disadvantage of any rifle or shotgun for home defense is they are long and awkward to handle in tight spaces. A handgun is much easier to manipulate inside a building but again you start running into the problem of over penetration of the bullet if a handgun with reasonable stopping power is selected.
Whatever you decide on, practice, practice and more practice. Use your weapon until it becomes second nature even in pitch black situations. A good training course for armed personal defense is a way to avoid making most of the mistakes any of us who started off self taught have made.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
Posted by: tencubed
Any firearm is loud if you shoot it in a broom closet. It's a good point you make about the noise level inside a house. If you are not expecting the report it can be unsettling. IMO, and this is based on experience, the report of a 12 gauge is not that much different than that of your 45 Auto. The 20 gauge will be somewhat less. What is significantly different between the shotguns and the pistol is muzzle flash. The muzzle flash from a 45 will take your night vision away for sure. Low base 20 gauge has a flash but not nearly as bad. Again, I would recommend a training course which will teach you how, when, why and why not to use deadly force. The experience of actually firing various weapons in an enclosed space, both dark and lighted, is something that can not be adequately described and must be experienced.
My personal preference is an old 20 gauge pump with a 20" bbl and modified choke. Holds six in the mag, I keep 5 in it to save the spring and leave the chamber empty. The sound of a pump gun cycling is unforgettable and in itself is something of a deterrent.
Posted by: tencubed
Contact your local Police Department, they should be able to get you in contact with a good training facility. If that fails, perhaps there is a local gun club you could contact. A great source of information for all things gun related is the National Rifle Association.
Posted by: tencubed
Squeege
I hadn't thought about it before but another great source of information about home defense and personal carry as well as lots of general hunting and shooting information can be found at Guns and Shooting Online. There is an extensive free area that has a lot of "must read" stuff in it. chuckhawks.com will get you there.
Posted by: tencubed
Sometimes it's a bit tricky to find bases and mounts that will match up and have the scope at the height you want. Have you looked at a peep sight for the rifle? I find, even with my eyes, that a peep is very good for close in work. Like 100 yards and less. Few years ago most of my hunting rifles had peep sights but anymore I really need the glass if the ranges are getting out there a bit.
Posted by: pwillie
Captain, I have first hand knowledge about bird shot. I was to a hospital to give blood to a cousin of mine that had taken a load of 12 gauge bird shot,number 8ths in the stomach at close range,10 or so yds....he lost his pancreas but lived to tell about....many stories around here about shot gun survival. When I was over seas, we used buck shot(number one) for our trench guns.That is a lethal load.
Posted by: pwillie
I just bought a Meopta rifle scope, and will install it on a Ruger No.1 that I had custom built. 50X10X3 30 MM rings...Let you know how it works out..
Posted by: pwillie
Nothing beats "Hand-Eye " coordination!
Posted by: pwillie
I like that sight...real quick...
Posted by: squeege
I am not too familiar with scopes. I am wondering if any of you would chime in as to what would be a good fit for a mini-14. Burris 3-9x40 Fullfield II maybe? Even then there seems to be about a dozen ranging in price of $200 and up.
Posted by: squeege
Home defense(hear it's suitable for that) maybe some plinking
I shoot less than 100yds
My eyes are very good
I will be shooting in cloud cover often
I found Nikon 3x9's on ebay cheap. What do you think?
Posted by: squeege
I do have a rem. 870 mag pump shot gun and 45 cal auto hand gun to cover home defense. Also ordered a folding stock for the mini 14 for any thing close range.
I have been shooting for many years on our 80 acre plot and will be careful and mindful of my surroundings.
I have heard the shotgun in a close quarters can be surprisingly loud and even stun you for a minute or so. Would the 20 gauge be a better choice over the 12 gauge for this reason?
Posted by: squeege
"Training course which will teach you how, when, why and why not to use deadly force? "
I would possibly be interested in a course like that. Where might I sign up?
With the layout of our property, wildlife refuge in back and untouched uncut woods in the front edges of the property in addition to the natural hills of Pennsylvania, I am blessed with many nice places to shoot my small collection of rifles, shotguns, and so on.
Thanks for your helping point me in the right direction
Posted by: squeege
Thanks tencubed
Now I have plenty of reading to absorb ....
I went to a sportsman's warehouse over the weekend. I liked the look of the Bushnell Trophy 1x28 site, but will wait and do more research. It doesn't mount with the Rings that came with the rifle. The rings that come with the Bushnell don't fit the rifle either
Posted by: squeege
The eotech on a semi auto rifle like the mini 14 just makes it all the more versatile IMO. It would serve any SHTF scenario well. Would be ok for a hunting rifle Scoped south of me in West Virginia also.
Posted by: toehanus
Squeege,
I've fired a 12 ga in a house before. It is extremely loud. However, if you're firing it in a self-defense situation, you're going to have so much adrenaline going through you that you probably won't even notice. It's kind of like when you're hunting. I've never had ringing ears after taking a shot on a deer. I'd load it with #6 or #8 shot and go from there. I personally would avoid buckshot or slugs for an in the house self-defense round. As far as the mini-14, I'd look for a good ghost ring sight rather than go with a scope. When talking about training, there are a lot of places to get training. They can range from cheap to very expensive. Like tencubed said, you can talk to the local law enforcement office, or go to the local gun shop and talk to some guys there. If you can swing the cost, places like Frontsite, and Thunderranch can really give you some good training. Good luck.
toe
