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Posted by: RPM
Take a look at the Polaris OUTLAW. Decent power, Independant rear suspenssion. Great trail quad.
Posted by: reconranger
Personally, I'll take HANDLING OVER POWER any time, and the huge 700 just doesn't handle! I have several buddies (all big tall guys) who have the 700's, so I have ridden them before, and it's NOT a pleasent experience. Not surprised you want something more nimble. This is a market segment (quads for the tall) that has been neglected by the manufacturers.
Most tall guys find the 450's to be to cramped. You might find the Raptor 660 to be ok (to narrow and tippy for my taste). I have not ridden the new Raptor 700, but it seems downsized from the older Raptor.
Posted by: reconranger
My buddies who have 700's, are primarily DUNERS. They don't usually trail ride these machines, but when they do there are often great stories about rolled quads, and the like! For the most part when not in the dunes, they stick to fire roads, and stay off the tight, technical stuff.
The DS got mentioned, and I have ridden it quite a bit as well. While I certainly prefer it to the 700, it is still a big overweight machine. Not the hot ticket for trail riding either!
My personal impression of the 700 is that it is a big bore utility, with the front drive removed. It handles big, tall, and heavy, just like a big clumsy utility. I think folks get seduced by the power, and don't think about what a handfull it is going to be out on the trail.
While the 700 has lots of low end grunt, the 450's are certainly faster on the top end. That shouldn't be surprising, seeing that the 700 has a hefty ~170 pound weight handicap. And for trail riding, that 170 pounds is an absolute killer! One of my buddies has a vintage piped 250R. He rode the other day in the dunes with a pair of piped 700's, and he said he was surprised at how SLOW they were. Again, the little 250 has a HUGE weight/handling advantage here!
The Z400 is a great handling machine! It is a superb trail machine, and probably the best all-around handling machine there is. (I do however prefer the 400EX for the slow, really technical trails.) It's motor has tons of hop-up potential so don't be fooled if you have only ridden a stock one, but still it isn't in the same class as the 450's in terms of power.
Posted by: reconranger
Dirt Bikes: CRF450R if you mostly want to MX. CRF450X if you mostly want to ride off-road.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/
Posted by: reconranger
Even a low end bike like a CRF230, has a more plush ride than a high end quad. My friend who likes to MX, gave up his quad in favor of a bike. He can get a CRF450R, pretty much race ready right out of the box. With his Yamaha 450 quad, he would have to get a-arms, shocks, a swingarm, tire, etc., etc., so the cost got prohibitive. He rode the stock machine for a while, and pros he met at the track would come over and compliment him for doing so good on a bone stock machine.
Posted by: Scooter86
Out of the three you listed, the Raptor would fit the bill the best. You still get open class style torque on the bottom and 450 level HP on top. The 450's don't really like lugging around on the trails under say, 10MPH. They will do it, and can be modded to do it better, but they really aren't designed for that. BTW, I got some very limited seat time on a new Quadracer, and it is a pretty well polished package right off the showroom floor. Might be worth a look.
Posted by: motox26
Deciding between a dirtbike and ATV is up to you. If you have questions about a dirtbike PM me.
As far as the ATV's you listed, I would look into the 700r Rappy. I think those are going to be a great "do it all" quad, plus it won't get outdated anytime soon. I wouldn't want to seriously race it as a MX machine, but Im sure it is great for playing around on the track and catching air. It shouldn't have any problem lugging behing your son when you want to take it easy.
I'm going to throw another quad in there, IMO the Z400 is one of the best all around bikes there is. I used to own an 04', and I trail rode it hard, putted with it with my fiance', and even won a MX race with it. It may not have as much power as a 450 or big bore, but once piped and filtered it isn't far off, and on the track or trail it isn't going to make a difference.
Posted by: motox26
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Originally posted by: RPM
Take a look at the Polaris OUTLAW. Decent power, Independant rear suspenssion. Great trail quad.
He wants a quad that will be good on the track too.
Posted by: enFORCER
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Originally posted by: raidermike67
You might want to look for a DS650 Viper, they are about 40 lbs lighter then the Baja version and a guy could possibly trim a bit more weight off of it and the power is comparable to a stock KFX with better suspension and a more comfortable ride, you can do jumping with it.
I think the DS650 is a great quad. However, like the KFX700 it's a little to heavy for the MX track.
I would suggest any of the 450's. Second choice would be the Raptor. Only because he said he want's to ride MX.
Posted by: enFORCER
The 450's are good for MX and jumping. They do not have better "top end" . And the 450's are defiantly a lot less comfortable to ride when compared to the KFX700 (when not on an MX track). I have quite a bit of seat time on both the yfz450 and Honda trx450 to make my comparison.
Posted by: ss97
400 versus 700
Don't worry about any relability issues with the z400. The early frame problems were worked out in 2005, and for the most part very few issues have come up.
I know a TON of people with z400s and KFX400s and I would say 99% of them have had no major problems, and many of them race and beat the living heck out of their machines.
I beat the heck out of mine, it gets ridden a lot, but I maintain everything to a high level. I've not really had any problems beyond normal wear and tear.
My Father rides a KFX700 and we race all the time, both machines are virtually stock and they are pretty close in speed. In a drag, we are generally close off the line, I have to slip the clutch to keep the front end down, but he has to keep the front end down with a gentle thumb. Both machines will walk right from under you if you are not careful. I will tell you also that we are both big guys, I'm around 300 and my Father clicks in around 250, and neither machine seems to notice the weight very much against lighter riders, so the power is there.
Once out of the gate at the same time, we are even until I shift from 2nd-to-3rd, the torque of the 700 will pull about a half-length to a full length almost every time. However, if allowed to hit 5th gear, i will start to reel him back in and eventually I will pass him slowly. But I'm sure his top speed is limited to the gearing, with the proper gearing the thing would probably hit 80.
On the track if he's in front, I can shoot out of a corner faster and close some gap, but I generally cannot pass him unless he makes a mistake and leaves me a line open. If I'm in front he is generally in the same postition. Unless I make a mistake he can't catch me either. This tells me that they are close enough on a track to where it comes down to the rider.
In the woods, again, it's all rider. The difference is that I can hop back and forth between lines a lot quicker. The heavier machine can't change lines as quick at higher speeds. The more I push my 400 the better is handles in the woods, the suspension is amazing for stock and soaks up everything I throw at it. The 700 requires more bull-like riding and less finess.
Jumping the 700 can be done, my Father clears everything I do but he finds his suspension limits a lot quicker. I can soak up a lot more on the landing and not hit bottom.
With that said, I can say for me the 400 is far and away the best choice I could have made last April when I bought it. Of course the Raptor 700 was not out yet, otherwise it would have been a much tougher choice. Of course the Raptor 700 on my local dealer's floor right now has a $7395 sticker hanging on it....I paid $5199 for my KFX........... I don't think you can beat a z400 in the "bang-for-the-buck" catagory.
Posted by: raidermike67
Your best option is the Raptor 700 IMO. Good luck trying to get a 400 series quad with similar power though that V-twin 700 is a beast.
You might want to look for a DS650 Viper, they are about 40 lbs lighter then the Baja version and a guy could possibly trim a bit more weight off of it and the power is comparable to a stock KFX with better suspension and a more comfortable ride, you can do jumping with it.
Posted by: raidermike67
My personal impression of the 700 is that it is a big bore utility, with the front drive removed. It handles big, tall, and heavy, just like a big clumsy utility. I think folks get seduced by the power, and don't think about what a handfull it is going to be out on the trail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Raptor 700 weighs a whopping 50 lbs more then the YFZ or TRX450r.....My big, fat, overweight utility quads AND my DS have taken me anywhere my buddie's YFZ or Raptor has gone, I've virtually had zero problems with tight trails or any trail for that matter unless they are dirtbike only trails. I've taken my DS on motocross tracks and kept right with my buddies YFZ and I'm no more tired after three of four laps then he is.
I'm looking into entering one of these 200-300 mile off road races early next year, I couldn't even imagine trying to do that on one of those little 450's...heck, I wouldn't even consider it.
Everyone has a preference, my buddy likes little quads he can whip around on, myself, I prefer to let the quad absorb the trails while I enjoy the ride. It could just be me, but there is a point in time during the day where not having an automatic and reverse is a real annoyance thats why I try to start the day on my DS and finish on my Rincon, that way I can get in two kinds of riding in one day.
Posted by: raidermike67
We went riding with a guy on a kfx700. My brother let him try his yfz, and when he came back he was shocked. He took it out for another ride because he loved it. But the yfz definetely does not like riding slow. My other brother is 6'4" and 220lbs, and he loves my z. >>>>>>>>>
And I had the exact opposite experience. These forums can be great for insight but until you put your butt on the seat and ride it there is no way to really tell how you will like a quad.
Posted by: bberck
Raptor 700
It doesnt feel tipsy at all to me like people complain about on the 660. It has plenty of power and at 396lbs it doesnt weigh much more than the 400 class quads.
Posted by: bberck
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Originally posted by: reconranger
Most tall guys find the 450's to be to cramped. You might find the Raptor 660 to be ok (to narrow and tippy for my taste). I have not ridden the new Raptor 700, but it seems downsized from the older Raptor.
They addressed alot of the 660 complaints when the developed the 700
660= 72L X 43.3W X 45.3H seat height 33.9 weight 398lbs
700= 72.6L X 46.1W X 44.5H seat height 32 weight 396lbs
As can see its shorter, wider, and lighter. I had some concerns about the 700 but after doing some research and now owning one I feel its a great choice
Posted by: ajd187
I'm going through the same thing. I haven't decided if I want to spring for a 450 or save a few bucks and live with less power and get a 400.
Posted by: ajd187
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Originally posted by: reconranger
Personally, I'll take HANDLING OVER POWER any time, and the huge 700 just doesn't handle! I have several buddies (all big tall guys) who have the 700's, so I have ridden them before, and it's NOT a pleasent experience. Not surprised you want something more nimble. This is a market segment (quads for the tall) that has been neglected by the manufacturers.
How does the power of the 700 compare to your 400s, and the 450? I too would like to get an opinion of someone who has ridden all three.
Posted by: ajd187
Does the Z still have the corrosion problem or have they fixed it?
Posted by: ajd187
I sat on a 450R and a YFZ450 tonight at a dealership. Big difference for the same class of machine.
The Yamaha felt small and cramped. The Honda was only about a inch or two taller but what a difference! The seat is a lot softer and the overall ergos seemed a lot better. These machines are so close in performance that I would probably recommend a 450R for a taller person.
Posted by: Sparky8370
We went riding with a guy on a kfx700. My brother let him try his yfz, and when he came back he was shocked. He took it out for another ride because he loved it. But the yfz definetely does not like riding slow. My other brother is 6'4" and 220lbs, and he loves my z. In fact he has a 400ex, but I keep my z at his house and he always rides that instead of his. He likes it better for giving his son rides because of the easier clutch, and he likes it better for solo riding because of the difference in power. If you do get a 400, it would be the best choice. But I can't give you a comparison because I have not ridden the kfx700. But I would say it's a great all around quad that you can run with the 450's on the trail (but not the wide open areas) and still play with the kid. It's very nimble and easy to jump.
Posted by: Sparky8370
They haven't even acknowledged it yet. But I did have mine checked and it was fine, and I never changed to evans waterless or anything.
Posted by: Sparky8370
They just had a shootout between the outlaw and the z in a magazine. I'll have to check to see which one it is. But they gave the edge to the z I believe. Although, for strictly trails I think the nod went to the outlaw because of the added clearance in the rear.
Posted by: Sparky8370
Quote
Originally posted by: AR15guy
They guy on the raptor must SUCK then. Because I have watched my buddies 2003 400ex with big gun exhaust, jet kit, and K&N put 3 quad lengths on another buddies kfx400. Guy on the 400ex only has 2 months riding experience compared to the kfx guys 10+ years.
The KFX400's are nice quads. But the raptor aren't that bad. They get put down a lot more than they should.
There's something seriously wrong with that story. It would take a 400ex with extensive motor mods (big bore, cams, etc.) to beat a mildly modded kfx. Just a pipe and filter on an ex isn't enough for it to beat a stock kfx.
We rarely ever ride on wide open terrain, but we went up a class 6 road the other day. My older brother on his YFZ, me on my Z, and my younger brother on his EX. My youger brother had his pinned, we didn't. He had a hard time staying with us. If we would have all pinned it, the EX would have been way behind. It's really not even a contest. Oh yeah, my younger brother has a white brother's e-series exhaust with a K&N filter, and obviously proper jetting-that's not really a mod but just proper tuning.
But I do agree that he raptor should be smoking the KFX, at least once they get up to speed.
Posted by: Sparky8370
That's definetely true. In the case the other guy mentioned, the guy on the kfx had much more experience and was on a faster quad, but still lost.
Between my brothers and I, my younger brother is the more talented rider. On a straight open road, this made no difference. But in the trails he could probably beat us. We've never really raced in the trails, because you can't pass anyway-too narrow.
Another buddy has a bone stock piece of crap 400ex. He also has a little mx track. When he races against other quads at his track, he smokes them like they're not even trying. He raced and beat my brother on his YFZ, and another buddy on a YFZ that has raced quads before and currently races motorcycles.
Posted by: rpxr400
I wouldn't get the Raptor 700. My friend just bought one, and three of us (himself included) all think my '05 KFX400 has much better suspension than the Raptor. It's also quite a bit heavier than the KFX, and noticably nose-heavy.
The Raptor owner upgraded from an '03 400EX, and the other guy has an '05 400EX.
I'd recommend a look at the 450 class quads.
Also, if you're looking at track (MX) riding, power isn't all that. A good rider can more than make up for less power over a lesser rider. I smoked the new R700 (stock) with my (stock) KFX.
Posted by: v700rdr
I am the proud owner of a 2005 Kawasaki KFX700. I bought it in the fall and it has about 80 hours on it. I love the fact that is has endless torque and tons of power. I love the CVT trans because it lets me go a lot faster in the woods.
However I have come to the realization a few months later that I really should get something smaller and more nimble. It's great in the trails but it sucks for MX. Getting something else is going to end up costing me a lot of money but I ride every weekend and this thing is kicking my ass.
Basically I am looking for a sport quad that matches the following criteria:
At least as powerful if not more powerful than my 700
Somewhat comfortable for a bigger guy (6-3, 220)
Decent (doesn't have to be great) at both trails and MX
Good jumper
Lightweight
Mild mannered when riding slow (for following my kid on his CRF80 which I only do for maybe 10 minutes a weekend)
Reverse is not required
I was thinking of a 450R, YFZ, or Raptor 700.
The Predator and Raptor 660 are off my list. From what I've read they suffer some of the same problems that my 700 does (big, heavy, tippy).
I have taken the 400 class out of the running because I have a feeling they won't have all the power I want. If you have ridden both a Kawie 700 and a 400ex or Z400 and can convince me that they have similar power then maybe I will reconsider a 400.
Also if you have suggestions on a dirtbike to get I will take those too.
Posted by: v700rdr
Wow guys thanks for all the suggestions!
I have given this some thought and I may go with a 400EX or the Suzukasaki 400. However I'm concerned about yjr latter's reliablity issues both past and present. I ride all the time and would hate to miss out due to a recall or breakdown.
I will lose some power but the gain in handling should be enough to offset that.
The other option is a 450. I sat on a YFZ at the dealer yesterday and the seat felt like a board. But after hitting a double on my KFX it is apparent that I need to get something a little bit lighter before I hurt myself.
Posted by: v700rdr
I think I am going to go with the 400EX or 450R. I'm really impressed by the reliablity of our CRF, and XRs that friends have. It just seems that those Honda motors never quit!
I also read the DW article on it where they said that the 450R was the most comfortable and had good trail manners. I want something I can toss around and jump well too. I would imagine that any of the 450s will do the job well.
Posted by: AR15guy
A crf450 would make you think that kfx700 is slow. Bikes are fast (well not mine but MX bikes lol).
However they are not for everyone.
The KFX400/LTZ400's are pretty quick and powerful for a 400 quad. It is a DOHC unlike the 400ex's. Which aren't slouches I don't suppose but the kfx700's are pretty powerful. Easily outruns my buddies 660 raptor.
Posted by: AR15guy
Bikes are a different animal all together. Riding the same terrain on a bike and a quad is almost like night and day.
I don't MX and never plan to but I do jump. I'll admit I have more fun on the 400ex. Riding a bike is much harder. If your on a dirt bike you will fall no matter what your experience level. You will have some wipeouts.
Posted by: AR15guy
Buddy of mine has a 03 400ex. Only obvious mod is full exhaust. We aren't sure what else is done to it but it puts 3-4 quad lengths on my buddies kfx400 EVERYTIME.
My 400ex cannot keep up with it but still you can make a 400ex outrun a kfx400 for pretty cheap. That 400ex is only 2 quad lengths behind my buddies raptor 660.
Posted by: AR15guy
I have seen 1 450 Honda so far. Some younger kid was riding it. It was QUICK. Wheelied like crazy and was extremely loud.
I thought it was a 400ex till I saw him kick-starting it.
Posted by: AR15guy
The 400ex is going to be every bit as reliable as a XR. The 450's are less reliable and require more upkeep.
Unless your doing 60% track and 40% trail I would go with the 400ex. 400ex is super reliable, easy to maintain, and will jump fine. 400ex will have much better trail manors compared to the 450's. And you won't have to change the oil every 2 tanks of gas.
Posted by: AR15guy
They guy on the raptor must SUCK then. Because I have watched my buddies 2003 400ex with big gun exhaust, jet kit, and K&N put 3 quad lengths on another buddies kfx400. Guy on the 400ex only has 2 months riding experience compared to the kfx guys 10+ years.
The KFX400's are nice quads. But the raptor aren't that bad. They get put down a lot more than they should.
Posted by: bombrider04
The bombardier ds 650 is a nice quad but not for the mx track so i would have to go with the raptor 700 due to you being a bigger guyand the 450's feel like there is nothing to them. I dont know about you but i want to feel like im actually riding something like the raptor 700. And it also has the new technology to go along with it and can be made into what you need it to do.
Posted by: woodsracertofast
depends on the riders
