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Posted by: bigal
Wow this is a great thread!! I am a local racer, can't afford the time or the money for the nationals, but here is my 2 cents.
Pro (outlaw unlimited)
Pro-OEM
A,B,C (outlaw unlimited)
A,B,C-OEM
A,B,C-stock
16-24 A,B,C
+25 A,B,C
+30 A,B,C
+40 A,B,C
Women A,B,C
Sportsman (just as Lurch intended)
Youth ?,?,?,
The Pro-Am seems redundant to me, The fast A guys should be able to run withe the pros if they can qualify. The 2strk-4strk-open also seems redundant, since 330R's and 440 Ex's could run with the YZ's and CRF's in the unlimited A,B,C. You might not need the C classes for all the groups, It would depend on the turnout.
I don't know If I covered everything or not but thats my input. Thanks for letting me help!!!
Posted by: mxer
I think MrP's suggestions were the best. I agree with his idea 100% and think that is what the classes should be next year! They are 100% fair.
matt
Posted by: dual-sporter
personally i don't think production classes should be limited to 4-strokes only. lets leave the door open to the manufacture of production 2-strokes, especially a closed-course production machine.
if there is a class called 'stock' it better be stock, only changes allowed being air filter, jetting, shock re-spring/re-valve (but no aftermarket shocks,) handlebars/controls, and tires.(nerfs still required) no internal motor massage work, lengthening/shortening or widening either.
second, displacement rules should follow the same lines as the motorcyle segment, 250cc 2-stroke & up to 450 4-stroke in the same class, with allowable bores, not just 440cc... (who came up with that number anyway? cannondale?)
displacement classes whould be in 3 basic groups, each with A, B, and C classes.
1) big bore- any above 250-2/450-4
2) mid bore- 250-2/450-4 (plus allowable bores) max... sure a smaller bore can enter, but what good is it?
3) small bore- 220-2/350-4(plus allowable bores) max.
i know nothing about the needs in the kids classes, while agree that the current age rules stink, they don't apply to me(i don't have kids either)... so i can't really give input on them... it's probly the fastest growing segment too, but i have no idea what its needs are.
there needs to be an adult(over 21 y/o) 50cc or 90cc class!!! anything goes, just stay under the displacement limit!
Posted by: dual-sporter
does NASCAR sell cars much anymore? not really, the 'win on sunday sell on monday' theory does not apply to nascar anymore... you can't buy those cars off the showroom floor at all. what does NASCAR have to do with ATV racing anyways?
they've had to limit the crap out of it to make it 'fair', to the point of brand specific rules, and they all try to cheat. but that 'win on sunday...' thoery does apply to quads to a degree.... it makes ya wonder why the guy on brand X is winning and the guy on brand Y isn't.
ATV racing is not NASCAR. although, some things from it and other racing forms may be helpful in making decisions... as to what works to bring more racers in, more sponsors, and more spectators... and what will not
while i think that changing CC limits needs to cease.... constant rule changes only makes it a nightmare for everyone and increases cost, driving possible newcomers away..... but at the same time rule changes are necessary to meet the demands of both the market and the racers to make competition fair.... similar capability machines should face-off together, making it more rider skill than machine capability.
i still think that the 440 rule was set up for and in behalf of cannondale... why wasn't it set at 450 like the bike classes... say by a mathematical formula? unfortunately CC limit rules can favor one brand over another in a big way.
in both MX and CC, i think a production class is a good thing to see all the production quads battle it out with good riders riding them. a stock class where a *very* limited number of mods allowed would also be good(reducing racer cost), and pitting very close to stock bikes against each other..... but how many racers would actually ride in it? is it one seperation too many? would factory teams start backing either of these classes up?
i've seen both sanctioned and non-sanctioned MX races here locally. some tracks its hard to get one class of quads, much less seperate into many, due to many reasons(i believe). but at one local non-sanctioned track, they have a seperate series for quads & vintage bikes starting this year on saturday nights, with as many quad classes as you can imagine. since the WORCS series just allowed quads this year, they just have amateur & pro ATV classes, but it will grow and eventually seperate into more classes.
another 2 cents.
Posted by: Mxracer98
I like the idea, It gives the mojave a chance to race with quads its size.
Posted by: tprender
What Lurch has started is something that is going to take place this year, if and when we start to rewrite the rule book for ATV's. At the present time the ATV section is very small and is very general.
think that the classes need to be redone, but you have to remember or make different section for each type of racing. The classes that work for hare scrambles will not work for MX. For example, in HS you can have a stock class but in MX it needs to be an OEM class with frame and cases. This is just my opition.
I like some of the ideas that have been listed so far, but what if a person puts a 350X engine in a 250R frame. Should that be in your "sportmans class"?
Posted by: tprender
Here is something to think about:
Pro
Pro OEM
P-A(250 and 440 mod)
P-A OEM
P-A open(251 up and 441 up)
A and B just like P-A 3 classes each
C 2-stroke
C 4-stroke(440)
C open(251 up and 441 up)
In the C class no motorcycle engines and no after market frames
Sportmans(220 2-strokeand 300 4-stroke limit)
Womens A and B
I will talk about youth later
What about this for classes?
Posted by: tprender
Remember, you make classes on what is being made not on what might be made in the future.
the classes that are run at a local race is not the same as at a National, to many riders.
Stock class will work in cross country, but not at a MX race.
Posted by: tprender
I will addres the issuse of why the 4-st limit is at 440 and not some other number. Untill 1998 the class for the 4-st class was 350cc, because that is the largest 4-st that was made then. the in the fall of 98 Honda came out with 400Ex and people wanted it to be legal for the 4-st class not the open class. So the limit was change to 400cc as the limit of the 4-st class. Because of the .080 overbore rule people were taking the 400 to 416 which is legal. But, also some riders were putting in 426 and 440 kits, which are not legal for the class. How do you tell the difference between a 416 engine and a 440 engine with out taking them apart? This is and why the limit was raised to 440 in 2000. After changing the limit to 440, most of the riders then told me that they had a 440 kit and was telling everone that it was a 416. Last year some people wanted the limit raised to 450 on the idea that Honda was coming out with a 450cc quad. The rule was not changed on the idea of what might come out but on what we have now.
The classes that MrP listed are the ones that I like with something different for the womens, which should be made unlimited and made a A and B at the national level. This way we can get some beginning women riders at the nationals.
Posted by: tprender
You will notice from the responces that have been logged in we have 2 different groups. Ones who have been to a national and only to local races. the ones that have been to a national all just about listing the same classes with very small differences. I have not tlked to Doug scince last week and he did not say anything to me about this, so I don't know. If you are going to be at London talk to me there, there is something that needs to be talked about but I dodn't want to post it now. I am leaving in about 2 hours and will not get home till Monday.
Posted by: Lasher
I also was in contact with Doug Morris about other issues with the ATVA. Mainly the emails started about the involvement of the ATVA in local race series. I was pleasantly surprised that the ATVA is helping the local quad series get started. But here are the ideas that I sent to Doug on the class structures.
There are three levels for each class (focused on the GNC).
Outlaw – there are no rules in this class. Anything goes from bike motors to anything that does not fall into the other categories.
Production – this is an extension off the stock class. The quad must be (or have been) a production model. Modifications to the frame/suspension are allowed as long as they follow the same geometry of the stock quad. So aftermarket arms are OK, as long as you can bolt them to a stock frame. Aftermarket frames are ok, as long as you can bolt up stock parts.
As for the motors, you are allowed up to the manufactures bore size. So for the 89 250r you can go to 80 over. No powervalves are allowed, since the stock cylinder did not come with one. Powervalves must go to the outlaw class. Same with 310 kits. For the four strokes, you are allowed to go to the stock recommended bore. While I am not too familiar with the 4 strokes, I believe that a 440 kit in a 400ex would not be allowed. Like I said, I am not too knowledgeable with the internals of motors, but you can modify the motors to a point. I will let the people with more know how decided the actual rules. Porting would be allowed in the 2 strokes and cams would be allowed in the 4 stroke. Simple mods that everyday riders can have done.
Also, there would be no limit to the cc size, nor split between 4 stroke and 2 stroke. As long as the quad is offered as a production model. No one offs allowed (KXF-250, etc) so if a Raptor wants to race in this class it can. I look at this class to be the battle of the simple modified production quads.
Stock class – This class would be stock only. Say the only options would be an exhaust, air filter and jetting. Since MX has a lot of jumps, I would say allow suspension mods, arms, axle and shocks. But nothing internal on the motor. This class would be for the “poor” man racing.
For each skill level, there would be a combined class. This would take the top ten of the lower class and anyone below the top ten of the upper class. So in the Expert-Amateur class the top ten Amateur riders could race against the lower Expert riders. This will allow the lower class to see how they would do if they moved up. And give the lower expert riders a chance to get extra track time to improve.
The beginner class is for first year riders only. After one year you should move up to the novice. Also, there is no outlaw class for the beginner. If you have some outlaw quad, then you should not be a beginner.
So it would basically look this…
Pro Outlaw
Pro Production
Pro Stock
Pro-Expert Production
Pro-Expert Stock
Expert Outlaw
Expert Production
Expert Stock
Expert-Amateur Production
Expert Amateur Stock
Amateur Outlaw
Amateur Production
Amateur Stock
Amateur-Novice Production
Amateur-Novice Stock
Novice Outlaw
Novice Production
Novice Stock
Novice-Beginner Production
Novice-Beginner Stock
Beginner Production
Beginner Stock
The age limit for that above class are 16 years old.
For 12 and up ages, there is the following…
Intermediate Production
Intermediate Stock
Limits would be set at 300 for a 4 stroke and 220 for a 2 stroke. Blasters, 300exs Mojave etc.
For the younger crowd there would be two age brackets…
Ages 9-12
Youth Production
Youth Stock
Ages 6-9
Youth stock only.
For the youth groups, only production type quads are allowed. No bike motor hybrids.
Posted by: Lasher
A few other notes…
I could care less about the pro set up. Sure I love to watch them more than the other class, but how many riders at a GNC event are pros? Not to many when compared to all the other classes. This is why I suggested the classes that way. I focused on how to separate the “regular” riders into better or more even classes.
In our race series (NEATV-MX) many people complain that all the same quads run against each other. The four stroke class has been mostly 400exs and the 2 stroke class is mostly 250Rs. This is one of the reasons I have run the open classes with a 2 stroke legal quad. I wanted the chance to race against other quads.
I say lump all production quads into two groups. Modified and Stock. This way, when people want to bench race on which quad is better, there will be proof. If a 400ex rider feels that his machine will be better on a MX course due to the handling against a Raptor, then let them duke it out.
Keeping the classes the way they are now will not help the sport grow. If some one wants to build a hybrid quad, let them, but put them all in the same class. I would rather see how the current (and past) production quads do against each other on the track. In both stock trim and modified.
With regards to the kids classes. Currently the rules are a joke on the age limits. I will not even get started on this topic, other than ATVA better wake up. The kids are the future of racing. I would hate to see how many kids choose bikes over quads because of the rules and age limits. A complete joke.
Posted by: Lasher
Lurch, the points would be from the previous year. And I was using the 250 size as an example. Basically, if the quad is or was produced for the public, then it can ride in the production or stock class. Banshee would be allowed.
As for the stock only class, I would like to see it remain stock width. But I wonder about two things. First and most importantly safety. For the lower skilled classes, it may be fine to remain at stock width, but once the rider is at the Expert Level and above, their limits extend the current stock handling. And with the big jumps and whooped turns at most MX tracks, I wonder if safety will become an issue. The second reason would be the number of riders in the class at the upper level. Again, at the upper skill level, a rider will want a wider, better suspended quad to race. How many non major sponsored riders will have two quads to bring to the track? Not too many. Oh, most (if not all) manufactures do not produce quads with rebuildable shocks. So allowing the revalves on stock shocks is a no go. Either allow aftermarket shocks, or stay stock.
As much as we dislike it, we must play to the manufactures to a point. Until quad racing is as big as bike MX racing, we will not get a "closed course" (i.e. Moto 440) type quad out of the box. Rather I see the manufactures building a quad that appeals to the most people, but can be simply modified for racing. So when the classes are designed, we need to take into account that there are certain levels of mods that people complete to the machines. If you want to build a one off (426 aftermarket frame) quad, then you will have a place to race it in the outlaw class. If you want to take you stock quad to the extreme, then you will be able to race it in the Production class. If you want to only make simple (not into the motor) type mods on a limited budget, then you can run in the stock class.
When thinking about the classes, do not think of the pros. Think of the riders in each class and how it will benefit them. At the track I mainly see three types of riders. Those with bottomless pockets that build the "special" quads, those that modify their stock quads as much as they can, and the finally the racer that is just out there for fun with a few minor mods.
Pretty much right now, there is no class for some one to race a slightly modified (or stock) quad. People are lumped together by motor type. This is wrong. Put all the quads into modified level classes. This way people will know what they will be in a class that is equal to their wallet. And the expense is one of the biggest issues in today's quad racing, right? Even at the local level, it is tough for some one with a lot of skill but a small wallet to compete in the upper skill classes. Most that I know of, simply stop racing because of the cost.
Let's have a dogfight with the manufactures. Allow the quads to duke it out in near stock form, and modified form. See who actually comes out on top. This may drive the manufactures to building better quads. If one quad needs very little mods to be competitive while another needs major work, then it will be obvious. Forget the 2 stroke and 4 stroke separation. Put them together. If the 2 strokes were that much better, maybe some one will take notice and build a 2 stroke closed course racing again. Or maybe it will cause these great new 4 stroke motors to be produced in a quad frame? Either way we the riders win.
As for the sportsman, sure they need a class for the “sporty” but not “high performance” class.
And Rick you mentioned the “Blaster” Class only had a handful of riders? Well, then drop the age limit down to 12, and get rid of the “super modified” mini class. Our Air-cooled class here in New England was pretty big. It had a full gate at every race, and it was mainly from kids ages 12-16. Why? Because parents were buying machines that fit their kids, and now they had a place to race legally. Same with the 90cc for 6-12 ages. This class was larger than most of the other classes. And with kids of the parents racing being able to have something fun to do (other than play in the dirt waiting for dad to race) made for quad racing to be family sport.
End result of the class should not have anything to do with what the pros are currently running or want. It should only be to create an affordable family environment. One that any level (money and skill) racer can enjoy.
Posted by: Lasher
But that is the problem. We are letting the manufactures and dealers dicate to us, what we should do.
If the ATVA (and AMA) change the rules, people would be flooding the dealerships with requests for mid sized quad for 12-16 year olds. Then the dealers would pressure the manufactures to lighten up on the restrictions. Hopefully this will be about change.
Remember that the age thing is NOT a law. It was a voluntary agreement which was signed by the manufactures back in 1988 and EXPIRED in 1998. Currently the manufactures are just following the same guildelines on a volunteer basis.
We are the consumers, and we have the power. If we were not able to buy quads for kids under the age requirements, then explain to me how I see so many kids riding quads that actually fit them. On the track and on the trail?
Reform needs to take place on a major level, from the racing classes to how we deal with CSPS and manufactures. Trouble is, the AMA board (which defines the rules) has a few manufacture reps on it. Politics at its best.
Posted by: Lasher
A Mojave would not compete with a 400ex, unless the Mojave rider wants to run in the other classes. I would classify the Mojave with the Sportsman class.
Why separate the motor classes? In my view, motor size does not make a the best MX racer. I have seen a stock 400ex motor beat a 440ex motor on the track with similar suspension mods. Why? The rider plays a key part. Right now the Raptor is only allowed in the Open class. I think more people would enjoy racing if they could run against the other production machines. If the Raptor motor makes such an advantage on the track over the 400ex, then let it be known on the track. Let it be know to the people buying the quad and to the manufactures.
When making up the classes, we need to look at what currently is available and what may be available in the future to us. I personally think that the classes would be more competitive if quads could run against each other. Right now it is the same quads, with different mods fighting each other.
I have talked to spectators at the track. And they comment on how the 2 stroke class is all 250Rs and the 4 stroke class is all 400exs. They get tired of seeing that. They want to see a Yamaha race a Honda. A 2 stroke oldie but goodie race the new breads. Heck, even I a quad racer gets bored watching the separate classes.
When a Cannondale showed up at the track last year, everyone wanted to see how it would do against the 400ex in the 4 stroke class.
When a Raptor first showed up at the track everyone watch to see how it did in the open class against the Banshees. But did that answer anyone&39;s questions of what was a better race quad? No. They wanted to see the Raptor against all others.
Posted by: Lasher
MrP – By limiting the OEM class to the 4 strokes, you are not giving the 2 strokes a chance if one is to be released.
Overall, I will just say this…
By limiting the size of the motor, you are leaving the rules to be changed each year like the bikes. I personally do not see large bore 4 strokes being a dominant factor on a quad MX racing. If it is, then the more power to the company that produced a high revving big bore 4 stroke, which is lightweight.
Now understand I do NOT own a Raptor, nor do I plan to own one. So arguing for a Raptor to race a 400ex on a track is not a personal issue for me. I am going by what I feel would make the sport grow in fan base and in rider base. And I think direct head to head competition between all production quads will do just that.
If we are going to limit anything, limit the mods in the classes, not single out certain quads.
Posted by: Lasher
Tprender – I agree with the XC and MX being completely different. I think there should be separate rules for each. They are two totally different types of racing. I think the same holds true for MX and TT. A for local series, they should run the same classes as the nationals. I know for the smaller series, it will be difficult, but eventually the sport will grow. Look at our series in New England. We have up to 300 quad racers and grow every year, and all this after only 3 years!
Also, you can only make the classes on what is currently made. But I think the constant changing of the cc limit is getting too much. At least in my opinion.
MrP – I may head down to watch (maybe race) the Maryland race. Other than that the closest one is Mt Morris and that is an 8 hour one way trip. I am 30 years old with a family, so traveling all over the east coast for the races is simply not an option. And I would much rather line up against different quads, then only line up against the same brand.
RemNS – You are right, until things change I am afraid we will be stuck with the current limits. I have a 7 year old son that is in need of a quad. I have been looking at all the options for the last year and a half. Nothing is out there that has what I want. Not to mention, he has shown an interest in racing with dear old dad. But then I would be limited to getting a 50cc quad which is already too small and way under suspended (for safety) on a track. But I digress…As for the CSPS, I won&39;t even go there.
Change is needed and I hope the decisions are made with the sport in mind. Not the 20 something pros that race, or some expired agreement, or the manufacturers.
Posted by: mojaveaddict
I whole hearted agree, Especially about the changes to the air cooled class. The mojave was effectively strickened from the GNC by the air cooled only designation. It had no other competetive home. A 350 cc limit for four strokes and a 220 limit for 2 strokes would be great. No aftermarket frames and engine swapps. It would even be good to designate the types of quads in the class like the GNCC does in it's Sportsman class. Otherwise someone will down size a tricked out 250r to 220 cc.
Doug Morris, if you do visit the forums here, please keep in mind issues like this that help us less blessed financially folks race and be competitive. I am trusting that now that we have the ATVA, things will get better for quads.
Posted by: mojaveaddict
tprender,
in responce to your post where you said;
"I like some of the ideas that have been listed so far, but what if a person puts a 350X engine in a 250R frame. Should that be in your "sportmans class"?"
In my post previous to that I had kinda covered that by saying that the types of quads could be designated to keep that from happening. That is what the GNCC is doing. The rule also should state that the frame and engine must match from the production model.(no engine swaps) While all classes from HS/XC racing may not work in MX, most will and the present ruling for the sportsman class in the GNCC(with very slight rewording) is perfect for MX as well. I also think that stock type classes will work in MX. The stock class in the GNCC is really not sock, you can change frt shocks, tires, handlebars and some other stuff as long as the frame and motor are stock. A stock class in mx that allows some suspension mods would work.
Posted by: Lurch
I sent an email to Doug Morris, the director of the ATVA, about class changes for 2003. The reply I got was great! He is very excited about rider opinion and is open for suggestions. Here are a few of my suggestions...
1.) Only allow motorcycle engines in the B class and up. Do not allow them in
the C class.Come on.....YZ426 and CR450 motors in the C class??
2.) Change the "air-cooled" class to the "Sportsman" class.
a.) Allow up to @350cc for 4-strokes and @220cc for 2 strokes. This way,
Warriors will have a home as well.
b.) NO Motorcycle Engines Allowed.
c.) NO Aftermarket Frames Allowed.
3.) If you sign up for more than one class, make the second class a little less
expensive. Instead of $40 per class, make the second class you sign up for
$30.
I also sent Doug a link to the forums. I do believe he will read this so speak out!!!
Posted by: Lurch
Email me and I'll tell ya. Let's try and keep this thread about suggestions and comments on the topic.
Posted by: Lurch
Thanks YoDaddy. Remember, this is for everyone who want's to have input on the ATVA rules!
Posted by: Lurch
Good point about the 350X Tom. From what I have personally seen, these motors are power houses! Also, from what I have seen, most are running +400cc kits as well. Well.....I guess I should have thought of this one.I wouldn't consider that to be a "sportsman" ride. The whole point of a "Sportsman" class would be to keep the class very affordable, very competative, and just plain fun.
What do you think the rule should be on this Tom? Anyone else?
We are all trying to achivethe same goal, so lets all work together make this sport the best of the best!!!
Posted by: Lurch
I have a few questions I need clearified.....
ImageRacer250r: What is the difference between Pro and Open Pro. Also, Sportsman and open air cooled?
Lasher: How we are to get the top and last 10 riders to ride in the other class? Would it be from the year,race, or what before. You want all 4-strokes to ride together from the 400ex to the Raptor in the same class, but he limits the 2-stroke to just 250. What about the Banshee?
Let me know if I need to rephrase the questions.
Posted by: Lurch
No no no! How can it be competetive if you do not list classes with bassis in motor size? How can a stock 250 Mojave, for example, compete with a stock 400ex?? IT CAN'T! Classes have to have a bassis in the engine department along with age and rider ability(i.e. A,B, & C).
Aftermarket frames and motocycle engines (i.e. YZ426 and CRF450 motors) do NOT belong in the C classes. Also, the Pro-Am classes gives the top ametures the chance to go against the top pros to see if they are ready for the move up. Once more thing, a displacement limit of 380cc should be placed in the Sportsman for 4-strokes. That's just my opinion.
=====================================================
Here are my updated suggestions.
Pro
Pro Production (OEM motors and frames)
Pro-Am 4-stroke Up to 440cc
Pro-Am 2-stroke Up to 250cc
Pro-Am Open 441 & up 4-strk, 251 & up 2-strk
221cc-250cc 2-stroke A
221cc-250cc 2-stroke B
221cc-250cc 2-stroke C (no motorcycle motors and aftermarket frames allowed)
381cc-440cc 4-stroke A
381cc-440cc 4-stroke B
381cc-440cc 4-stroke C (no motorcycle motors and aftermarket frames allowed)
NOTE: The 381-440 4-stroke classes should be able to run with the 221-250 2-stroke classes
Open A 441 & up 4-strk, 251 & up 2-strk
Open B 441 & up 4-strk, 251 & up 2-strk
Open C 441 & up 4-strk, 251 & up 2-strk (no motorcycle motors and aftermarket frames allowed)
AGE Classes
16-24
+25
+30
+40
Womens
Sportsman 91cc-380cc 4-stroke & 91cc-220cc 2-stroke. (No bike motors and aftermarket frames)
=====================================================
What do you think Tom?? Doug??
Posted by: Lurch
Tom,
Out of all you read here in this thread....tell us which class you would pick. Also, do you know if Doug has read this thread yet? Thanks!!
Posted by: RemNS
I think that we need to look at how many entries there are in each class! For instance, the 200 Air class only had 4 entries at Macon. Maybe the cc limit hurts this class! If we changed it, there still would not be a full gate. Changing it to a Sportsman class would help it!
1.) Change the "air-cooled" class to the "Sportsman" class.
a.) Allow up to @350cc for 4-strokes and @220cc for 2 strokes. This way,
Warriors will have a home as well.
b.) NO Motorcycle Engines Allowed. Current Production ATV Motors only!
c.) NO Aftermarket Frames Allowed.
The Youth classes are hurting the sport because of kids having to wait to race a quad that fits them. Yes it does cost a lot to modify a 90 Mod quad but to put a kid on a 250 would not help matters either. Maybe put a 125cc class in for the youths. There should also be 3 Youth age limits! 6-9, 9-12, 12-16! Allowing the 6-9 ages to race only 90 Stock, the 9-12 would race 90cc Modified and the 12-16 would race 125cc Modified
So it would basically look this…
Pro
Pro Stock
Pro Production
Getting rid of Pro-Am classes might increase the qualifying & entries for the Pro Motos and allow bigger purses to be paid out? Plus bring in more OEM attention with the amount of entries in each class!
250 A-B-C
Open A-B-C
4-STROKE A-B-C
AGE Classes +25 +30 +40 (adding the 19-24 class looks to be working good)
Womens
Sportsman
Beginner Stock
Youth A(12-15)125cc
Youth B (9-12) 90cc Modified
Youth C (6-9) 90cc Stock
These might be good ideas or just some dumb thoughts but I think that there is room to improve on everyone's ideas!
Rick Frisco
Rem-N-S Productions
Posted by: RemNS
The only question I might have for the 12-16 age group in the Sportsman or Blaster class would be the age limit's that Dealerships put on buying and riding a quad of this size?
I do agree that 2 strokes and 4 strokes should run against each other!
Rick Frisco
Rem-N-S Productions
Posted by: RemNS
Lurch I totally agree with what you had written for the classes minus a listing for the problem with the youth classes. I think that the youth cc limits may be a problem. There are more 125cc quads and engines being released by the day. I also have to state that even though the ages are only an agreement to follow, we do not want the CSC coming back in and giving bad publicity for a 70# 12 YO who was racing a bike too big for him to handle. There are a lot of problems with the ATV Industry and until we have a time & place to speak out with big cohooneys to the manufacturers and insurance companies, then we will be stuck with an age limit. They have to listen sooner or later.
The listing of not placeing cc restrictions on classes would not work for the whole National series. On MX tracks you will not see that much of a difference, but when you run those same motor displacements against each other in a TT Event, I think that there will be a noticeable difference.
I do believe that a questionere given through every piece of media would help solve the problems we have. Let the whole Community decide. Put the questionere out in Magazines and over the Internet and see what the responses would be. To ask maybe 30 or 40 people would not go over very well with the rest of the racers and supporters of the ATV community.
I think that is probably the best way to solve the problem here! And to say that one style or region of racing will be the same as the other is also false. To race in the sand with an open displacement will not show how much advantage a person will have as compared to a hard packed clay track.
Just some opinions!
Rick Frisco
Posted by: bigdave400ex
The pro class needs to only allow production quads in it. Thats right no more aftermarket frams. No motorcycle engines. Everyone knows they are the thing holding the sport back. As long as the rules stay as they are the sport will never grow to it fullist. Yamaha and honda will not put the crf or yzf in a quad until the rule is changed. Those rules where made in the early 90's when there where no good production quads. Now we have the 400ex, Cannondals, and the z400. Those quads need to be the ones winning pro race to bring the factory teams in. If production quads where winning companys would be forced to improve there quads every year like the bikes. This must happen now becoues quad sales are growing and the sport is to. The atva needs to acked fast before its to late.
Posted by: mordr
That all sounds great. I am just getting into racing and I am leary of having to run against the big boys with my little 250. I was thinking of buying more powerful quad, but if those rules come into effect, I'll just keep the Mo.
Lurch-how did you do against other bikes before your 330 kit?
Posted by: MXBUBS1
What if I want to race my FatCat?
Posted by: MrP
ImageRacer250r- Just the air-cooled class.
Posted by: MrP
I think it should stay the way it is with maybe a few new editions. The "Sportsman" class is a great idea. If this class is added I see little room for improvement to the way it is now.
Posted by: MrP
Here is how the classes should be:
Pro (265-440)
Pro OEM
Pro-Am (265-440)
Pro-Am OEM (This would replace 4-Stroke Pro-Am)
Pro-Am Open (266 up and 441 up)
250 A (265-440)
4-Stroke A (OEM quads only)
Open A (266 up and 441 up)
250 B (265-440)
4-Stroke B (OEM quads only)
Open B (266 up and 441 up)
250 C (265-440, No aftermarket frames allowed)
4-Stroke C (OEM quads only)
Open C (266 up and 441 up, No aftermarket frames allowed)
Sportsman (245-395, No aftermarket frames allowed)
16-24 Open
+25 Open
+30 Open
+40 Open
Women (265-440)
Women OEM
The Youth classes I will have to think about. But this set up is the best in my opinion.
Lasher- The age classes is where the manufactures can duke it out. Also, at the Nationals there is only so much time we have to race. I dont like it when they have to stagger start races because time is running out.
Having the OEM classes can keep racing for amatuers less costly and able to compete, and at the same time have a class for the people who have yz426 and crf450r dirtbike motors.
Posted by: MrP
Lasher- How many Nationals are you going to attend this year?
We cant make classes for future quads, just ones that are in production. Also, if you have two riders that are equal riders and put one on a slow bike and one on a fast bike who do you think will win? Different quads can run with each other. At Macon in my age class there could have been a Raptor, C-dale, 400ex, 250r, Banshee, LT250r, Quadzilla, Tecate, DS650, Blaster, or anything else that wanted to race at the starting line. Hey its good to see that so many people are interested in making this sport better. I love this sport more than I could ever say. I may sound weird for saying that but its true. So I am proud to see people are in here telling their opinions trying to make it better.
Posted by: ImageRacer250r
2.) Change the "air-cooled" class to the "Sportsman" class.
a.) Allow up to @350cc for 4-strokes and @220cc for 2 strokes. This way,
Warriors will have a home as well.
b.) NO Motorcycle Engines Allowed.
c.) NO Aftermarket Frames Allowed.
u mean in just the air cooled class that "NO aftermarket frames allowed"?..or do you mean in every class?
Posted by: ImageRacer250r
ok heres my 10 cents...............the sportsman class is a good idea..but i dont think that the classes should be pro production then pro outlaw novice...etc...i think they should have:
Pro
Open pro
Pro Am
A B C
Open A B C
Open
Sportsman
Open air cooled..
women
veterns
the the kids classes..
the i think they should have Rookie class..for those people that just started nationals this year...then a beginner for people that just started racing..1 year or less experience... I also think that they should have a 16-18 and a 19-24..
but thats just my 10 cents...
Posted by: ImageRacer250r
"the sportsman class is a good idea..but i dont think that the classes shouldnt be pro production then pro outlaw novice...etc...i think they should have:"
that should in the first reply is suppose to be shouldnt..i was in a hurry..
Posted by: ImageRacer250r
Yea i do have to agree that the age limit for quads is stupid..its sad for a big 15 or 14 year old to have to ride a trx 90 and the kid being 5 8 150 lbs...the 90 wouldnt pull them up a hill.....but if we have:
Pro Outlaw
Pro Production
Pro Stock
Pro-Expert Production
Pro-Expert Stock
i think that there would be too many pro classes..if u have a guy on a 400ex that has to run lets say....production.....he may be like Jermiah Jones vs. lt 50.....and it not be fair for the other riders...but if he can ride with the outlaw against 450fs the he would have competition and it would cause a mass confusion about all classes..but this is just my idea..
Posted by: ImageRacer250r
ok i quit.........u all have it out....and let me know if anything actually gets changed.
Posted by: YoDaddy
I agree w/ Lurch 100%. Unfortunately I don't have the time money to travel and race the GNC's but at our local level tracks (mainly just Badlands MX) there is a "Blaster class" which allows 350 4-strokes and 220 2-strokes (I think) and the turn out for those classes are usually good.
I don't race the blaster class anymore (obviously, since I own a Dale) but I just wanted to back you up Lurch. Very good suggestions man.
Posted by: smitty911
Personaly, the class I would be most interested in is STOCK with only aftermarket shock no rebound or compression adjustablility allowed. This would allow for most of us working Joe's to compete on the track not at the bank. I don't care what the Pros do I'm not spending 20,000 on a quad.
I was at Glen Helan My first race, with a stock 400EX e-series pipe and got wasted by highly modified bikes. I'm not going to spend that kind of money to play. I'm 39 so I not out to get a national sponser, just wanted to see what me and my bike could do.
I am looking to start racing in some form or manner and whatever it is it will be a stock class.
Smitty
Posted by: smitty911
Boy I'd hate to watch NASCAR with all stock frames. If your running PRO who cares that the small end of the market. It's the weekenders that buy all of the quads and if they had a plave and a class to race that doesn't kill their wallet they will come.
Smitty
