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Posted by: spjohn
Out of all the ISO talk this is the most accurate statement posted
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It only certifies that you document every step of the process to hold what ever tolerances you are holding.
In a nutshell, if you say you hit every 3rd quad with a hammer and then you do, you will get your ISO certification. it has nothing to do with quality or tolerances, it just holds you to a specific process. Now obviously companies have tolerances and quality built into their processes in order to get customers/clients, but that has nothing to do with ISO.
Posted by: LT80
I only want to chime in on the Kymco thing.
Kymco makes all their own stuff, right down to the motors. In the 80's Honda was part owner of KYMCO. The Honda reliabilty factor never left the Kymco company when Honda was bought out.
On the Mongoose 250 that I test rode in 2- 12 hour races and a few MX races this year, all my 250R wheels fit right on. I broke a axel at Red Bud (go figure, a mere 250# guy jumping up as far as possible and a stock axel broke..LOL), My buddy had his stock 450R axel and with a lil grinding on a spacer, I was out for moto 2 with a 450R axel installed.
OK, you guys take the other stuff from here.
Posted by: LAKOTABOB
seapup, I think you are right that a lot of these ardent chinese quad supporters on this forum are dealers.I know quite a few people with chinese machines and they are always working on them. I have had 6 jap machines and have never had anything break on any of them. All chinese stuff I have seen is junk.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
So one factory making sub-par machines means all Chinese companies are making sub-par machines? The only thing disturbing is your ignorant conclusion. Do some research. Many of the big dogs contract with chinese companies to produce oem parts to their specifications. Knock the company, knock their products, but I know for a fact China is putting out some stuff for Honda (Sundiro), Yamaha (Linhai) and Polaris (QJ) so don't tell me they aren't capable.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Learn to read. I listed 3. And the fact is they have produced products for the major players. Eton and Kymco have mainland plants too.
I guess now is where you tell me you've visited every single atv manufacturing plant in China? Get real dude. The proof is in the pudding and there have been some decent products to come out of China. Are all good? No. I wouldn't buy some of the crap we see floating around. But some I would. That's my whole point. YOU don't know everything nor do YOU have experience with every manufacturer. So quit talking out of your butt and stick to the products you do have experience with.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
I agree MQ97, been pushing the Polaris clones for years. They have abundant parts and support from the race crowd. But my China quad is a Polaris clone and made by the same company that produces a so-called Taiwanese mini that often gets praise on this site. It's all perception.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
You're so right Mr. Smartypants, I'm sure Honda and Yamaha are not ISO certified. lmao!
Do your own research. Keywords: joint venture China Honda Sundiro or Wuyang, then try Linhai Yamaha. Known a few people to have good luck with Linhai products, including myself. And I'm not pushing $600 quads. All off brands are not created equal.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: squeege
http://www.moxiescooters.com/diamo/turista.php
http://www.moxiescooters.com/diamo/d_index.php
Found some motorcycles...same prolly holds true for atv's
Yes it is stated as: built in a Yamaha owned factory (Linhai) and you can expect the highest level of quality and reliability.
But really these china made products are in the same price range as the real deal yamaha...so why not buy the real deal?
Any company like this is few and far between in China...and still where is the support or parts? Prolly sill not close to the big nameshr>
Just an fyi, my mini has Yamaha stamped on the side. But it's engine is almost identical to yours, squeege. This is what MQ97 keeps reffering to. It's an old scooter engine that has ended up in many mini atvs. While not all are identical, many parts interchange. I get my parts from WRH Racing. As far as service, I work on my own quads. Again, I wouldn't tell anybody to mail order if they can't turn a wrench.
Oh, and I paid $1180 delivered. My only gripe was the electric choke. Deals are out there if you know what to look for. Linhai has a 260cc that's been sold under numerous brands that has a pretty good reputation too.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
For a business person, you don't know much about joint ventures.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: SEADAWG
Raptorlegs,
You took this thread too personally. If you have a good quality quad from China, bless you. If you read this forum, it is obvious that the quality is not there. Most of us have owned Japs for years and know they ain't close. Are you a dealer? SEADAWG
Regardless guys, we have to respect others opinions. If we disagree, put it out there and be methodical about the detail.
Seadawg, I've been listening to this garbage way too long. I will not backstep two years to another China bash. We've been there and it's BS. You have a bur under your saddle because you bought the wrong machine. I guarantee NOBODY credible recommended that machine on this site or said it was great quality. You didn't heed the advice of people that actually know what they are talking about. Then you bash all Chinese machines because of ONE brand. It's ludicrous.
And you're one to be talking.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Ask MWQ if I'm a dealer.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: superbombman
Back a few post's there was someone that posted that kymco & eton are china built thats so wrong both are made in tawain which the workmen ship is way diff. YES both CO. have plants there.
You go look at the company structure of many of these manufacturers and it become obvious they don't have the man power to produce the number of machines they claim in Taian. SMC is a prime example with like 100 employees. So who's really making there products? I don't know but it makes you scratch your head.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Are tolerances the responsibility of the parts manufacturer or the assembly plant or both? Which one is the fly by night company? I'm asking.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
Are tolerances the responsibility of the parts manufacturer or the assembly plant or both? Which one is the fly by night company? I'm asking.
Every where Ive worked the customer sets/requests the tolerances. Some times they relax them when they find out how much their requirements cost them. Basically the larger the tolerances the lower the price. And the more parts pass inspection. The fly by nite company is the one who cant hold tight tolerances. Not because they dont have a paper trail for their parts.
I figured it had to be something like that. I think there is only a handful of true Chinese manufacturers and I've been told some tolerances are very tight...obviously some probably aren't so much. Thanks.
Posted by: hondabuster
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Originally posted by: aqharoper
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
You're so right Mr. Smartypants, I'm sure Honda and Yamaha are not ISO certified. lmao!
Do your own research. Keywords: joint venture China Honda Sundiro or Wuyang, then try Linhai Yamaha. Known a few people to have good luck with Linhai products, including myself. And I'm not pushing $600 quads. All off brands are not created equal.
Interesting, I don't recall Honda as a chinese company, nor Yamaha, Thanks for informing me. Are these the "big Dogs" you refer to in your earlier post?
Again, have you asked what these quads cost? Did ever occur to you why they are outsourcing, that is the term you were looking for in your earlier post.
"Many of the big dogs contract with chinese companies to produce oem parts to their specifications."
You keep falling back on your original premise that I am "knocking" all brands. I can't repeat myself enough, it seems for you and your first grade mentallity "dude" that I will have to repeat myself again "Mr Smartypants" I haven't knocked any brands. Just Chinese manufacturing. I do appreciate your childlike twist that you have added, it makes this thread interesting. It is unfortunate that you can not accept what others know for a fact.
Again, as a business person, if you are, how many of these companies have you visited? Is your research limited to the discovery channel or are you only allowed the Disney channel too? Is your background limited to turning a wrench?
I was curious, I noticed you have over 9000 posts here. Quite impressive, When do you have time to run a business?
I won't continue with this thread as I have wasted enough bandwidth trying to promote my observations. Good luck in your business. Thank you for participating in this thread. Now you can run along and watch cartoons....sorry just had to!
aqharoper
I gotta agree with you. Im also in manufacturing, and am appalled at the amount of jobs and work which is being outsourced. If all the jobs disappear to china...whos gonna afford the products? Like henry ford said a long time ago, we have to keep the jobs here, and pay decent wages...so our workers can buy our products.
Its short sighted to look at the short term cost.
Posted by: hondabuster
ISO is a marketing tool, and not a quality tool. You can make junk and garbage..and still hold your certifacation. It does not certify that you make quality parts.
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: superbombman
kymco is ISO certified what it means dunno all i can say is there both great co. and stand behind there products
Also eton took youth atv of the year in 05' and lets not forget Kymco is making A.Cats 300cc and under obvousilly CAT see's something in them
ISO certification basically means they have a paper trail for everything that happens to each part. And possibly for the assembly process too.
Id have to put Kymco and Eton at the top of the chinese quad list. Any ideas for the rest? Or disagree with my top 2? Anyone? I know there are some chinese quads that do quite well racing, they must be pretty good stock.
SEADAWG, Ill go ahead and put the "2006 Kazuma Adult ATV 250" at the bottom of the list for you
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: hondabuster
ISO is a marketing tool, and not a quality tool. You can make junk and garbage..and still hold your certifacation. It does not certify that you make quality parts.
If you open up the tolerances enough, every part is good.
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
Are tolerances the responsibility of the parts manufacturer or the assembly plant or both? Which one is the fly by night company? I'm asking.
Every where Ive worked the customer sets/requests the tolerances. Some times they relax them when they find out how much their requirements cost them. Basically the larger the tolerances the lower the price. And the more parts pass inspection. The fly by nite company is the one who cant hold tight tolerances. Not because they dont have a paper trail for their parts.
Posted by: mywifesquad
The company I just left was thinking of going for ISO certification and they figured it would take a full time employee at a salary of approx 60K minimum. They needed it for a customer they were losing. (medical industry) They didnt even really try for it very hard while i was there. The bottom line is, it doesnt certify that you hold tight tolerances. It only certifies that you document every step of the process to hold what ever tolerances you are holding.
Posted by: mywifesquad
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Originally posted by: squeege
I was gonna start a new ISO thread....sorry this has gotten so off topic....
With some of the chinese manufacturers claiming to be ISO certified. I think its still on topic in a thread with this title.
Posted by: squeege
WOW! Raptorlegs! LOL! You make me laugh!HAHAHA!
Posted by: squeege
http://www.moxiescooters.com/diamo/turista.php
http://www.moxiescooters.com/diamo/d_index.php
Found some motorcycles...same prolly holds true for atv's
Yes it is stated as: built in a Yamaha owned factory (Linhai) and you can expect the highest level of quality and reliability.
But really these china made products are in the same price range as the real deal yamaha...so why not buy the real deal?
Any company like this is few and far between in China...and still where is the support or parts? Prolly sill not close to the big names
Posted by: squeege
ISO 9000/ 9001 cuts out alot of fly-bye-night shops..... I worked at a shop that was ISO 9000 and 9001 back in the 90's....we were one of the first....the first in our area anyway...IF you look up tool and die in meadville pa (and surrounding areas), you will find hundreds of shops! It is just a small town between pittsburgh and erie PA
Posted by: squeege
Phone calls can be made to the manufacturer in order to open up tolerances to deviate from the blueprint design. OR the manufacturer could pretend the part in in tolerance or check the part above or below room temp. to make it check good.
ISO would require tools be inspected for accuracy as well as a paper-trail with signoffs in each department all the way thru till inspection department where the out of tolerance ones would not make it past...unless that phone call were made
Posted by: squeege
ISO cost our company us like $10,000 -$15,00 back in the day....we had around 100 people to get thru the motions ....also it was not easy...we did not pass the first time thru.....and we were one of the top shops...had contracts with procter&gamble( I've been inside that place) and many others....
Posted by: squeege
I was gonna start a new ISO thread....sorry this has gotten so off topic....
Posted by: SEADAWG
Raptorlegs,
You took this thread too personally. If you have a good quality quad from China, bless you. If you read this forum, it is obvious that the quality is not there. Most of us have owned Japs for years and know they ain't close. Are you a dealer? SEADAWG
Regardless guys, we have to respect others opinions. If we disagree, put it out there and be methodical about the detail.
Posted by: SEADAWG
You will find this discussion removed too!
Posted by: SEADAWG
Don't worry about it...if it happens, there is nothing you can do about it. Keep it real SEADAWG
Posted by: superbombman
kymco is ISO certified what it means dunno all i can say is there both great co. and stand behind there products
Also eton took youth atv of the year in 05' and lets not forget Kymco is making A.Cats 300cc and under obvousilly CAT see's something in them
Posted by: superbombman
Back a few post's there was someone that posted that kymco & eton are china built thats so wrong both are made in tawain which the workmen ship is way diff. YES both CO. have plants there.
Posted by: superbombman
I seen lt80's right up on atvscene.com about the axle deal pretty cool and he is right about kymco these guy's are a major OEM CO. in time they will be the 8th major powersports CO. in the u.s
Posted by: aqharoper
I know this may inflame some people but I would like to interject a few observations and thoughts. It has been disturbing me for some time that we, as americans continue to purchase items from China.
For 15 years I traveled abroad looking for parts suppliers for a major USA manufacturing firm, an Auto manufacturer. My job was to look at a company spend time in the factory and access their capabilities, in terms of quality, and productivity. In this global market where companies are all trying to obtain ISO certification this is a very important part of any manufacturing process. I was shocked at what I found in china.
First you must understand that this country, like most others, is trying to get what we as americans have. Just like Japan back in the early 60's was trying to do, and who now compete against us in all markets globally. The chinese companies employ people for little to nothing, provide very little training, because they themselves don't know alot yet, and have nothing in the way of a quality assurance program. I had the opportunity to see a motorcycle factory, this company would build private label machines for their american distributors. The costs of the machines out the door, were less than a good motorcycle frame built in the United States.
I believe it was a pit bike that I was looking at in this factory. They did whatever they needed to do to get it out the door, and did it as cheaply as they can with whatever materials they could get. The castings they used were very poor quality, lots of porosity, and poor machining, the tubing was no where close to the ratings we use in the United States. I picked up heads for the motors and looked at the machining, the finish was very poor and no where close to a 125 finish which we use as an industry standard. looking into the cylinders, you should see a mirror finish, instead I saw tool marks. I asked about how they checked they bore diameters, and the finish. they had no equipment to do so. The quality of raw material coming into china is very very low! They are in the stone age from a manufacturing standpoint. They are trying to learn processes, that we have had since the early 1900's.
Since they have been maunfacturing garbage, and we have been buying this stuff up like it was the hottest thing since the wheel, china now has lots of money to invest. Chinese companies are sending their people here to try and educate themselves on our manufacturing processes. In my opinion they are still 20 years behind, but as long as we throw money at them they will start to catch up. I have been offered jobs with several chinese companies, at a very nice salary, to come in and help develop a manufacturing process for them which would include R&D.
This scares me as an american! I sure hope that some of us will wake up.
I would never allow my child to own or ride anything built in china, regardless of the company, or the history. I hope that you would evaluate your purchases as well.
Posted by: aqharoper
I knew that someone would become irritated at my post, my objective was to provoke some thought. Not to get into a flame war.
Perhaps you should spend some time visiting these manufacturing facilities yourself and observe the process, look at the materials, watch the quality control, and see what the people live like on next to nothing per day. Then when you have we could exchange ideas. To say that my information is based on one facility is ridiculous. Please, read the post again.
I'm sorry, what company was it again you have knowledge of? I was curious how you came to your conclusion based upon your research. Have you visited them yet? Just curious.
Posted by: aqharoper
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
Learn to read. I listed 3. And the fact is they have produced products for the major players. Eton and Kymco have mainland plants too.
I guess now is where you tell me you've visited every single atv manufacturing plant in China? Get real dude. The proof is in the pudding and there have been some decent products to come out of China. Are all good? No. I wouldn't buy some of the crap we see floating around. But some I would. That's my whole point. YOU don't know everything nor do YOU have experience with every manufacturer. So quit talking out of your butt and stick to the products you do have experience with.
It is ok for us to disagree on who has a better brand than the other. We each have an opinion and I respect yours. The facts will speak for themselves in terms of the quality coming from China.
I did take some time to look up the companies that you threw out there. Maybe you can assist me. I don't find any ISO certifications or registrations for any of those companies. Perhaps I did not dig deep enough.
Most of these companies were started thru some encouragement of the communist govt. They have told their people to start their own business and earn a living. These business owners have hired people, who have recently come down from the hills and were farmers the week before. They put a welder in their hands, teach them to run a bead, and Viola! We have an assembly line welder. Now do the same with the rest of the employees and guess what...your in business. How is this for sticking to the facts? Am I doing ok so far?
Can you understand the type of problems you have doing this? Now, lets factor in inferior materials that we just grabbed anywhere we could find. Looks like a real mess here doesn't it. Well it is and the facts have proven themselves in the market place. Sorry you are upset about that.
Now, again I must ask, How many of these companies did you visit, you know the ones that you sell the product? Looks like someone needs to do some research. Speaking of, maybe you could tell me how many defect claims these companies have based on the number of units sold for year 2005? What was the average claim cost? Have they made any engineering changes? If so what are they?
My original post was meant to provoke intelligent and insightful thought. Not to bash any brand, which I will not and have not mentioned. It was a simple overview of the quality of products coming from mainland China, which I observed while conducting business in that country. As a parent, I would not allow my child to ride anything from this country. My childrens safety is worth more than $599.00 worth of quality.
Just one more additional note, did the company tell you what it costs them to manufacture this 600.00 quad? I didn't think so.....
Posted by: aqharoper
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
You're so right Mr. Smartypants, I'm sure Honda and Yamaha are not ISO certified. lmao!
Do your own research. Keywords: joint venture China Honda Sundiro or Wuyang, then try Linhai Yamaha. Known a few people to have good luck with Linhai products, including myself. And I'm not pushing $600 quads. All off brands are not created equal.
Interesting, I don't recall Honda as a chinese company, nor Yamaha, Thanks for informing me. Are these the "big Dogs" you refer to in your earlier post?
Again, have you asked what these quads cost? Did ever occur to you why they are outsourcing, that is the term you were looking for in your earlier post.
"Many of the big dogs contract with chinese companies to produce oem parts to their specifications."
You keep falling back on your original premise that I am "knocking" all brands. I can't repeat myself enough, it seems for you and your first grade mentallity "dude" that I will have to repeat myself again "Mr Smartypants" I haven't knocked any brands. Just Chinese manufacturing. I do appreciate your childlike twist that you have added, it makes this thread interesting. It is unfortunate that you can not accept what others know for a fact.
Again, as a business person, if you are, how many of these companies have you visited? Is your research limited to the discovery channel or are you only allowed the Disney channel too? Is your background limited to turning a wrench?
I was curious, I noticed you have over 9000 posts here. Quite impressive, When do you have time to run a business?
I won't continue with this thread as I have wasted enough bandwidth trying to promote my observations. Good luck in your business. Thank you for participating in this thread. Now you can run along and watch cartoons....sorry just had to!
Posted by: aqharoper
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Originally posted by: superbombman
kymco is ISO certified what it means dunno all i can say is there both great co. and stand behind there products
Also eton took youth atv of the year in 05' and lets not forget Kymco is making A.Cats 300cc and under obvousilly CAT see's something in them
In a nutshell ISO certifications simply mean that you make the same item the same way every time under the same conditions. There is a certification for the paper trail as another poster mentioned which is a seperate certification as in ISO9001, thru the manufacturing process it is certified as iso 9000, for parts and distribution they also have a specific ISO standards to obtain certification. If you walk into a manufacturing operation you should see the people perform the work the same, use the same part, install it the same way and use the same tools.
Hope this helps.
Posted by: aqharoper
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Originally posted by: spjohn
Out of all the ISO talk this is the most accurate statement posted
Quote
It only certifies that you document every step of the process to hold what ever tolerances you are holding.
In a nutshell, if you say you hit every 3rd quad with a hammer and then you do, you will get your ISO certification. it has nothing to do with quality or tolerances, it just holds you to a specific process. Now obviously companies have tolerances and quality built into their processes in order to get customers/clients, but that has nothing to do with ISO.
Actually lets take out the tolerance issue for the sake of the iso comment. ISO has nothing to do with tolerances. If you have an auto assembly company, that makes nothing but merely assembles all the items. ISO certification simply states that this car is assembled the same way under the same conditions, regardless of the location of the plant, be it in a Kansas plant or in an Illinois plant. In a Manufacturing environment, where you are actually producing a part for some one else to assemble, it simply states that you will make that part the same way under the same conditions. ISO certifications are different depending on the nature of the business. For example, lets look at an Auto assembly plant. The assembly part of the business would be ISO 9000 certified, the office or business end would be ISO 9001 certified, the paper trail end. If this company makes the engine block from a casting, it would also have a ISO 9000 certification.
In regards to geometric tolerancing, if a company contracts or subs out a part or an assembly to another firm, they provide them with part prints and assembly prints. These prints will have the tolerances on them. When you get into a tighter tolerance +/- .0005 inches then it may be more expensive to machine, depending on the part, the fixturing, tooling and the complexity of the geometry. Alot of factors go into the cost of a part. True, the greater the tolerances the easier it is to produce, however with todays modern machining techniques, and using CNC equipment, holding these tolerances tight over the course of a run is fairly simple.
Whew, sorry really went off the deep end.....
From what I understand of the origin of ISO Certifications, it started in europe, and the Europeans started to demand that companies doing business with them were certified. In the States companies like Caterpillar started to certify their outside vendors, mainly job shops. From there it just took off. It actually makes it easier to locate or troubleshoot a problem within the company, no matter what type of company it is. It is infact very expensive to setup and maintain. Many companies have there own ISO team that will precertify them before an actual audit is done. It looks better that way. Maybe someday grocery stores will have ISO certifications...
Posted by: MINIQUAD97
I think we all can agree that this is just a matter of opion yea there is chinese quads out there that might be ok but the fact is that you can not no way shape or form say they compare to eton polaris kasea dinli alphasports this style minarelli engine type or top name brands so if one guy wants to buy chinese thats his money some people have luck with them depends on how they are ridden and mantianed myself I dont like them they are to narrow and i dont like 4 strokes on mini quad unless it is a honda we race an alphasport 50cc and 90cc they both are completly modified and are very fast we have been racing about four years and have two point champ and have won 42 races chinese quads are not able to do that they wont last or run with these quads even in the woods they just wont take the abuse with out doing alot of work to them there is no arguing with these facts I have been there and seen it I dont care what company makes what thats how it is!!!
