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Posted by: jaybeecon55
In our local paper today - AP story out of DC:
"Three-wheeled all-terrain vehicles would be banned and four-wheelers intended for children wouldn't go faster than 15 MPH, under rules suggested Thursday by the Consumer Product Safety Commission's staff. The recommendations also would require ATV manufacturers to offer free training to families when they buy ATV's.
The commission staff recommended that:
1. For children 6 to 8, ATV's shouldn't go faster than 10 MPH.
2. For children 9 to 11, ATV's shouldn't be able to go faster than 15 MPH and they should have a device - which parents can turn on or off - that would limit their speed to 10 MPH.
3. For those 12 and older, ATV's shouldn't go faster than 30 MPH and should have devices that could limit their speed to 15 MPH.
The staff will recommend that the commission propose the new regulations at a June 15 meeting, and the commission later will vote on whether to do so."
Posted by: geo
we're all preaching to the choir... guys like us have a few things in common - we're involved with our kids, we understand our machines and their limitations, and appreciate proper safety guidelines. our very existence on this forum is proof of that.
we are not the problem.
the problem is those parents that bought a machine to occupy their kids while they're busy drinking beer (not a bad thing, mind you). it's the yee-ha types that have no regard for safety and common sense. it's the type that's willing to let their 12 year old ride a 400ex without a shirt or helmet and a buddy on the back.
these are the types that are going to visit hospitals and create sobering statistics. and unfortunately, you can't talk sense to them and big brother has to make us all pay for their indiscretions. our gov't has no choice but to create laws that address the lowest common denominator.
Posted by: watzupdog
I'd like to see all kids riding with a helmet even on there bikes and skateboards along with whip flags and daytime running lights. Of course no whip flag or lights for skateboards... Granted my kids only have to wear helmets while riding. But a whip flag and lights would be safer... You could make it available to all kids. PTA's at schools could raise money for these items instead of raising funds for swingsets each year that they never put in. My kids school raises money for the same items year after year.. They reach there goal and yet never purchase the items. Anyway why limit it to atv's.
Posted by: twentycharacters
spike- i see what you are saying allot of these chinese atvs just dont seem like they have it together with quality. ive seen some with cracked frames with hardly no riding..would you want your kid on a bike like that? they also weigh too much for most youngsters. some kids dont have the body english to handle the atv properly. yes they can sit there and steer but to really ride corectly, you must RIDE, move, reposition yourself on the atv. the courses teach you this and they are FREE when you buy an atv. in recent times, ive always gotten a free rider thing in the mail from yamaha and honda... all i have to do is show up.
i guess these chinese OEMs arent doing this???
parents still need to be parents. my dad and family taught me how to ride. we grew up on dirtbikes, 3 wheelers to quads. but most today dont have enough skill built up from experience and they buy bike for themselves and kids that they cant handle. they are just ignorant. now there are always idiots out there....i think all quads should have an idiot sensor on them to help weed out the idiodic riders...but i guess if they did that then it would already be used in the auto-industry! it amazes me of how allot people that cant drive even have a license to drive a car...
Posted by: spike99
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I believe that 3 wheelers should be banned. In my area, one cannot get insurance on a 3 wheeler - regardless of its engine size. No insurance means no plate. And without these 2 items, no trail pass - on the public trails. Today, folks can only drive their 3 wheelers on their own private property, and without insurance. Besides the legal aspect, 3 wheelers are dangerious. To me, they should be banned.
If the speed restrictions are applied to mini-ATVs for all "new" factory models, then many performance shops will make a huge profit. Profits for providing CDI replacements, sprockets replacements and/or providing advise on how to remove the factory speed restrictions. If restricting their ground speed is the law going forward, average Joe will find a way to make them faster. So, applying ground speed laws is really is waste of political effort. But, it makes the CPSC and local law makers appear to be heros. Heros because it appears they are making our mini-quad sport "appear" to be safer. But in reality, they really aren't!
Instead of wasting "political energy and new laws" in making mini-ATVs go slower, they should have a serious study on the "root cause" of each accident. Yes, speed may be one of the factors in an accident but what was the other factors involved? To me, the mini-ATVs must be wider. Especially on their front ends. Make a mini 8" wider and it is nearly impossible to tip over (under normal riding conditions). Especially in the technical trail corners and when doing donuts. Make their Swing Arm 1" or 2" longer. Thus, less end/end flips when going up hills. Make their tires harder. Thus, the mini slides around corners instead of digging in - and rolling. Install DRLs (Daytime Running Lights) on all minis. To me, this is a huge safety feature that CPSC don't believe in. Foot brake is another great safety feature. Hydro disc brakes (front and back) is another great safety feature. Mandatory flag is another great trail riding feature. Lip on the running boards to stop feet from sliding off is another safety feature. Make them weight lighter. With today's aluminum, they can easily create a mini that's 50 lbs less. Make running boards or nerf bars mandatory. No more single foot pegs.
To me, the mini-ATV makers should be made to implement each above safety feature. If one implements these machine improvements and the stats of injury / death our unchanged, then make them go slower. Just like the 3 wheelers, our 4 wheelers need huge machine design safety "increase" changes. If mini-ATV makers can't make their designs better then perhaps they should stop making them as well. Just like the deaf traps of 3 wheelers.
On the "people" aspect, I belive one should be forced to take a safety course. A 2 days course that's good for 3 years. If one upgrades their machine during this 3 years, their mini-ATV permit (if one can call it that) is still good for that higher engine CC. Before the 4th year, they must take the same course. I know, people don't like taking courses. Too expensive, don't have the time or they "already know it". If the cost is "resonable" (like $50.00 / person), then new knowledge or refreshing one's old knowledge of "safe driving" is worth it. Especially if it means Keeping our mini-ATV sport alive.
In a way, I do agree with driver training. I don't agree that speed restrictions should be enforced. I do believe that our industry needs to take a serious look at the design of the mini-ATV and make them better. Make them much better then today's current design.
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Posted by: spike99
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My son & I went for a little 2 hour trail ride today. I'm on my AC 500i and he's on his '03 Pred-90. In our bush trails, I clocked him a MAX at 15 mph. On the short straight stretches, he's usually between 8 - 12 MPH. Based on the proposed laws of MAX 15 MPH, it wouldn't impact us at all. In our riding environment, MAX 15 is "good enough". However, my son in this same environment did have a few "roll overs" (due to his mini-ATV being too skinny), (did have 1 end/end flip, because its Swing Arm is too short) and did get his foot caught one - because of NO lip on its running boards.
As stated in my above post, I really wish mini-ATV makers would have a serious look at their current engineering design. Slowing them down isn't the answer. Making their base construction "much better" is the Root Cause in lower injury stats.
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Posted by: spike99
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When the accident stats of the automobile are analyzed, they identify areas of improvements. Take for example: Cable based brakes replaced with hydrolic brakes, many drum brakes are replaced with Disc brakes, Lower gravity and wider stance are emphasized, DRLs were introduced in the last 10+ years, better steering geometries, better tires, 3rd brake light, etc. etc. All these are mechanical improvements to "reduce" accidents. As proven in the auto industries, these mechanical improvements do work. On the people side, our government now have multi-phase license programs. One must drive with a G1 or M1 for a while before getting their G2 or M2. Then, they have to pass more tests to get their full G or full M. I know, I hate the multi-phase license program too but it does work in reducing auto accidents.
If you analyze the stats of mini-ATV accidents, many are due to double riding, riding without a helmet, "lack" of supervision, lack of skills/training for one's riding environment, etc. etc. Yes, too fast is contributed to some accidents but in the big picture "too fast" wasn't the "Root Cause" that caused the accident.
With this in mind, will making a mini-ATV go slower "dramatically" reduce accidents? Will making an automobile go slower (say from 100 mph down to 80 mph) also reduce accidents? I bet a bag of fresh donuts that reducing the MAX top speed of a mini-ATV won't dramatically reduce accidents. To me, its about "improving" driver skill/experience, improving base construciton of the machine and improving "parent" involvement. Focusing on main areas will yield the best bang for the tax dollar. Yes, goverment agencies can make a mini-ATV go slower (in its pure stock form going forward) but just like the automobiles in the old days, they need to focus on other areas. Make them wider, make them longer (thus, dramatic reduction in roll overs), make them have skid plates, make them have better brakes, make them more visable via DRLs, etc. etc. is what will obtain best return on their "political energy".
As mentioned many times in other posts, my son hasn't tipped his Pred-90 since adding 1.5" wheel spacers on the front. Making a mini-ATV 6" wider using 3" A-Arms would reduce the risk of roll overs even more. An inexpensive skid plate reduces the risk of things getting caught under it. Thus, reduction of body slams into the gas tank / handle bars from a tree truck stub. All these "little engineering things" reduce accidents. Adding a foot brake to our Pred-90 was one of the best mods we did to it. And yes, dramatic difference when using a foot brake compared to a hand lever brake system. Making them go slower isn't the best bang for the the "political energy" that's being used today.
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Posted by: spike99
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A limited number of parents (even today's time) will continue to use a mini-ATV as an unsupervised baby sitting tool. Making these parents face child abuse or manslaughter charges won't change a thing. It may make them twice twice about it, but they will still do it. Just like one of my buddies and his 10 year old kid. And a limited number of parents will continue to allow their young child to drive an over size ATV. Over sized like an 8 year old on a 250+ CC Adult sized ATV. No throttle restrictions - simply the trust that "their kid" won't go above 1/4 throttle on the rough parts of the trail. Yes, every year we read about young kids getting killed on over sized ATVs. Just like in the auto industry, some folks still don't drive while wearing a seat belt. And some folks still don't put their kid in a properly sized baby or booster seat.
Currently, the media has "super charged" a bad public attitude about mini-ATVs. Whether right or wrong, todays's law makers feel that something must be done. So, they are often forced (mostly by the majority of public opinion as well) to try and make our sport better. Thus, they look like they are doing their job and in their hearts, they are also hoping to save a few kids from getting hurt (or killed). Whether we like it or not, the law makers are expected to implement change. And, they are expected to implement change to "make a difference". Sorry to make it sound this simple but they are expected to make the highest priority changes first.
With this in mind and if you were standing if their shoes, what "machine" changes would you implement? Would you ensure future models have better brakes? For example: Foot brakes that are hydro disc brakes - on all 4 tires? Would you make their front ends 6" widers - to reduce roll overs in the tight technical corners? Would you eliminate foot pegs and ensure running boards or nerf netting? Would you make DRLs mandatory? Would you make skid plates madatory on the factory build - just like many of the adult size ATVs? On the people side, would you make multi-phase driving permits? Would you make both parent and driver "must" attend the driving course?
Being in the law makers shoes and you had to implement 2 improvements (to our sport as a whole) every year for the next 5 years, what changes would you make? And remember, you have to make these changes (re: new laws) or your boss will fire you.
Throw your ideas on the table... Perhaps the law makers are reading this post and your improvement ideas will make them relize that reducing speed isn't "the best bang for the dollar". Perhaps there's a pattern in many areas they aren't seeing? Share your improvement ideas. If there's a pattern in certain areas, then "they might" focus on this area of improvement next...
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Posted by: spike99
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Does anyone feel the fronts of mini-ATVs should be wider then their current factory design? Thus, less tippy on the corners?
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Posted by: Hondanutcase
These new regulations all stem from a death of a child memorial day weekend. Some a$$hole lets his kid ride an adult size atv (not a youth atv) no helmet, no safety gear. I dont see how limiting a youth atv will stop that from happening. These people have to understand that the majority of us only let our kids ride with strict supervision with all the right teachings and safety gear.
What's next "No bicycles for kids under 13"?
Posted by: cvc42
I live in IOWA and any child can ride a dirt bike anywhere in the park. The day the local DNR asked me and my 7 year old daughter to leave the parkI watched a small boy on a dirt bike with training wheels TBone a parked van.(Unhurt thank god) I think the sport has 2 problems. 1. The tree huggers HATE ATV's. 2 The sport has grown so rapidly and shows no sighn of slowing down , the DNR has thrown soft money at financialy strapped local ATV clubs to take over managment and and regulate the parks. The DNR here has no desire to build any parks on it's own. They site statistics but will not and do not supply data (ie specifics on accidents). Dirt bikes (which I own) far outnumber ATV's and incure many more accidents and deaths yet are allowed far more riegn in who can and cannot ride them in the parks. My theory there is they don't want to anger the motrcycle crowd along with ATV crowd. The DNR here still does not offer any saftey classes....I registered all my small ATV's and paid the park fee to support the parks, however the DOT told me I did not even have to register the quads by law??? The DNR says its the law to register??. There is alot of work to do before ATV's will be allowed the same access as motorcycles. Its a family sport...but not all family members are allowed access. And it sucks!!
Posted by: billl2099
thats crap
Posted by: oldkawi
SPIKE99
Trikes aren't dangerous, the operators (if trained) are same as quads, cars, dirt bikes, tricycles, bicycles, little red wagons, guns, knives etc. Operators taking any equipment outside the geometry they were engineered for are dangerous.
In Alberta you cannot operate on public lands without a learners permit (14 years old) legally. not a bad rule. California has a flag / whip rule for public lands, pretty smart; ORvehicles in Alberta including quads, must have functioning headlight / taillight; pretty good idea. Manditory helmets - legal; 100% correct -- if you want to kill yourself on private land - your issue; but if gov't agencies were to look at root cause stats they would find 95% + operator / owner error in deaths and injuries associated with any motorized vehicles. a young person was killed in Alberta this weekend no helmet, ditch riding, playing chickenwith another quad, alcohol was/ is probably a factor. I'm betting the ATV will be blaimed somehow. almost every accident posted in a newspaper in this provence in the last 6 months have shown serious operator error, not equipment failure.
complain about trikes, what was the first thing your parents put you on outside when you were 3 or 4? bet it wasn't a bike or quad.
I let my daughter (5) ride a Honda 90 ATC in our yard; shes supervised, restricted, safety equipmented to the max, you cannot tell me that any child will not panic if any major issue pops up in front of them; they forget to hit the brakes,kill switch, or panic and hit the gas, it stands to reason that time, practice and skills are developed over time, no pre 10 year old really reasons in a rational manner in a high emotion situation. Alot of your ideas are factually good, functionally impossible, you will have to get the 60% of parents whom let toys / tv / rec. vehicles babysit their children to buy in,, and they won't unless you charge them with wilfull intent to cause injury, manslaugter / murder whatever when there children get hurt or killed.
jmho, Darrel
Posted by: oldkawi
Move all motorized ORV equipment under DOT juristiction to be licenced and insured as motorized equipment, safety certified under DOT.
14 years old (minimum) to ride public lands or operate motorized ORV equipment on public lands.
Helmet manditory all ORV ATV / trike / motorcycles period all ages.
whip + high vis flag on public lands period
vehicle learners permit minimum
certified ATV course, renewed on a 3 year basis, all riders period
weight restricted to a machine that weighs no more than 2.25 X the riders weight (150 lb rider=375lb machine; 50lb rider = 125lb machine)
restricted 125 yd radius from supervising adult 14 to 16 years old
hydraulic disc brakes front and back. hand and foot brakes on all units
speed restricted to 40kph (35 MPH) from 14 to 16 years old (no night time operation of ATV 14-16 years old)
running lights on every ATV (small or large)
I won't / didn't allow my kids to ride PUBLIC lands until they were 14 with a learners permit If you can't insure it with the rider listed on the insurance form they shouldn't be operating the unit.
Private tracks / private land, ride whatever you want at your own risk. If you kill your kids, suffer the consequence
And this should bring the howls of outrage from board members
Posted by: nitrox
Spike,
Most of what you say I agree with BUT: maybe it time joe public used some common sence an
Uncle Sam slowed down on reg.'s We have to many agencys making rules and treating them like the law of the land. The big goverment agencys need to be cut back and there big fat budgets
use to cut our tax's with income tax,property tax, sales tax, state and frderal gas tax and to many to count hidden taxes over 50% of your yearly wages go to the goverment LETS WORK ON CUTTING THAT BACK instead of the speed of atv's
Nitrox
THIS IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF MY LIFE!!!
