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Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
You guys just dont get it.
To be a ATV safety instructor to PROMOTE youthfull ATV riding - the instructor has to play by the rules. An ATV instructor would be fired for even suggesting that a child under the minimum State age requirements operate a ATV.
These are not the ATV instructors rules - these are the State laws (not all states have these laws - see your individual State laws) and if you have a gripe with the laws - then talk to your law makers.
Instructors are working to serve the legal age groups to improve safety and provide for a more informed and knowledgeable group of youthfull riders. Without these programs it would be very likely that ATV operation on public property would be limited to those persons with a drivers license.
You can't expect State/DNR or whatever employees to promote violating the laws. If you want your kids to ride outside of these regulations - then ride on private property until your child meets the legal age requirements.
Also note - We all agree on the over-sized quad issue and that being where the majority of serious and fatal injurys come from. In my opinion - all of these rules for youthfull riders are the result of a minority of parents making poor decisions that has basically ruined it for everyone else. Maybe when you come across some of these folks - you can think about what they have contributed to the situation, and give the instructors a little bit of break for their doing their jobs the way they are required to.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: Quad4FunHold the parents responsible for letting their kids ride oversize quads, whether they get hurt or not. IF they catch your kid riding a quad that is to big, you get the hefty ticket.
Problem is what defines an "oversized quad"? Is a 70cc quad that has been modified to produce 12 hp safer than a stock 80cc that produces 6 hp? It's OK for 6 year old to that 70cc according to the industry standards. BUT not the 80! hose type of laws make no sense to me.
Are not the CPSC age standards 50cc for a 6-11 year old and 90cc for 12-15 year olds?
Its's somewhat confusing tracing down all the internet links on the subject. One could also conclude that all but six States prohibit under age 12 operations. If anyone knows of a concise table of State age requirements I'd be interested in seeing it.
Make note that these age regulations are for operation on public property.
Many believe in demonstrated knowledge, skills and proper fit being appropriete measure for youthful operations -
But, if anyone asks - I know only the laws of my State and hold them out as my official and final answer.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Quad4Fun
The burden I guess would be to show negligence on the parents part by letting their kid ride a quad that was to big for the child. Which might not be that easyThat is the problem with "guidelines", they don't have much bite to them. .
As some States are progressing in promoting youthful operators they are also clamping down on "pod" parents.
In MN for example - allowing access to a over-sized quad can cost the adult "owner/person in control" a hefty fine and/or suspend their drivers license and it is reportable as a violation for your auto insurance - no different then handing the keys to your car to a 10 year old.
"bring your checkbook, drivers license and a trailer" quote from Sheriff Deputy on cell phone to the father of a 10 year old atv driver caught riding a 500cc in the cat-tails of the county park. Cracked me up! Actually he got off lucky as being in the park allows for confiscation of the ATV.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Imagine pilot certification being a written test only.
Unfortunetly I can see where some of this relaxing of the Youth ATV program might come from. Youthful riders are suppose to be tested for demonstrated ability but far to often they come unprepaired and it becomes more of a last minute training to get them through the program.
I rejoice when watching a 12 year old who "commands" the machine with authority and cringe when the others are in panic going across a 20 degree side incline.
All that being said - even with hours and hours of coaching my 14 year old cant back down the driveway into the garage. Go figure.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Its the simple questions that get me into the most trouble. Theres no such thing as free lunch or a simple question.
First - candidates for the Youth ATV Safety Certificate are expected to have experience. Its a test. That experience should come from training and riding on other than public property. Currently the official role of we Safety Instructors in Minnesota are to administer the testing and certification program. Some instuctors do participate in ATV operation training but because of liability issues it is difficult. Parents are expected to be involved as youthful operators must still be under adult supervision when riding.
I applaud your interest in becoming involved in a youth program in your state. My expereince has always been that huge gains can be made in using as example what other states are doing. Minnesota is one of the more progressive states with a youth program.
A lot of information is available at http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/vehicle/atv/index.html Check out the links on that page.
Send your address and I can forward a copy of the computer based training CD that is a big part of the certification program.
Also check out this page - it says a lot. I will be working with George this weekend supervising the demonstrated skills activities.
http://kare11.com/links/contact_detail.asp?NEWS_ID=63469
If your looking for anything specific just let me know how I can help.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
How terribly tragic and sad for that family....
Just yesterday my best friend of many many years and many adventures called to tell me that his 14 year old son took his dads 500cc quad out while Dad was at work- flipped the quad on top of him on the black top and is pretty banged up with deforming scars and flesh damage. Turns out that Jr. had the "missing" spare key to the cable lock securing the quad. His ATV safety permit is about 3 weeks old.
To quote my friend "just having these things in the garage with young teens around is to dangerous - they will find a way to do the wrong thing when nobodys looking". This from a guy who is more liberal with letting his kids do things with power toys then I care to even go into.
Maybe he has a point. Maybe kids and quads mix about as well as alcohol and driving. Just an accident looking for a place to happen. Maybe having the maturity and responsibility of a drivers license is where the line get drawn.
I don't have an answer for it. Just questions....
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
I don't know if anyones given it much consideration but - the plan seems to be to educate the kids now - so they will be the "informed" parents 20 years from now. I agree that there is a element of parents out their that did what they wanted as kids and will do as they want as parents. Maybe if they get to the majority of kids now - the majority of parents will have a clue when they start putting their offspring onto power toys in the future.
Just like my friend - until they have to stand outside the emergancy room door waiting to talk to the doctor - all these rules are for everyone else - not for them.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Ok - then try this related problem.
My 14 year old daughter can out fly any student pilot I've ever come across. Because of her years and years of flying expereince with me and with flight instructors she can hold tolerances and perform to standards way beyond that required for commercial pilots.
She is as good in the clouds flying insturments as anyone else. Her knowledge of the rules and regulations are also better then most and she can score over 95% on any one of several different commercial pilot written exams.
Our family enjoys flying together to fly-in breakfasts and airshows. We are blessed having two airplanes and if she would be allowed to fly one of them - we would all be able to go together (the other airplane can carry 4 of the 5 of us) The way it is now - someone always gets left out of the fun.
We all know that accidents happen and they are unavoidable.
Why then - should she not be allowed to get her pilots license and be able to fly along side of me in the other airplane under my direct supervision?
No - I don't want to wait for her to age to the minumum of 17 years old for a license. Its not fair - she fits in the seat just like a 17 year old would. and we want to do this now and not wait 3 years just because of some dumb rule.
We paid a lot of money for this extra airplane and we shouldnt be restricted from family entertainment just because some government idiots who proly never rode in a airplane decided that you must be 17 to have a pilots license. We have a radio in both airplanes and I can tell her when she's doing something wrong.
If anyone knows of a state where my 14 year old can fly the airplane please let me know.
And P.S, there are hardly any fatailities where being 14 and the pilot of the airplane are a factor.
- - - - -
A simular delima - just food for thought
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: stevendsm95gst
so its ok for your 14 year old daughter to fly a plane alone but my little brother cant ride a mini quad because he doesnt fit the age limit? Your being one big hippocrit here.
LOL -
Its a rhetorical situation freind. Do the same standards apply between a youth operating a ATV and a youth operating a airplane? Can a parent over rule the authority to operate one or the other? What are the criteria between each case?
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
So its OK to let my 14 year old daughter fly the airplane if we want her to? Is that what your saying?
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: stevendsm95gst
i dont care what your daughter does as long as she isnt going to crash into my house. You can be sure my little brother wont crash into your house either on his quad. He has his own little track out in our front yard to rip around on.
Not caring is a cop-out. Its like admitting your brother is to young to ride the atv but you dont want to admit it.
What are the differences between a parent wanting a under age youth operating a atv vs. an airplane? You pointed out you don't want your personal property damaged - and thats a little myopic.
What about the larger issues?
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: FsT4WrD
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMudSo its OK to let my 14 year old daughter fly the airplane if we want her to? Is that what your saying?
If you are confident and comfortible to let your creation fly a plane by herself then I say let her do it. Cause no dad would let there child put there self in harms way.
Wait a minute - we have video of 4 dads sitting in lawn chairs drinking beer while the 4 eight year olds are riding 500 cc machines through a mud pit, without helmets - and the dads are not even looking in that direction.
We have dads riding with 3 kids on the rear rack of quad down a two track public trail in the most heavily used riding area, and we have dads giving free access to kids on quads a thousand times a day in our state alone.
To beleive that dads don't put their children in harms way - either from ignorance or lack of common sense - does not hold water.
Thats why the feds came up with minumum age standards - to intervene where parents dont know or dont care about minumum age requirements to operate the atv
The question remains - whats the difference between a parent wishing a child to operate the atv or the airplane.
And are you prepared to answer the judge why - when knowing the federal minumum age requirements - you put your 3 year old on a atv that weighs 185 pounds and half of that is 400 degree metal? This happens. And fathers have lost custody or have supervised visitation because of it.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
That paste didnt work -
Heres the link to a good arcticle on the subject
http://www.off-road.com/atv/kidskorner/youthatvs.htm
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
What really burns me here is the amount of ATV safety instructors that dont even have knowledge of its OWN State laws..I had a client call me yesterday and tell me that a certified ORV safety instructor informed her that Michigan law would not allow a certified youth under the age of 8yrs old to operate an Off Road motorcycle on our trails..This really MIFFED me that a CERTIFIED SAFETY INSTRUCTOR did'nt even know the law..Anyways,I gave this client the TRUTHFUL information and made a phone call to the instructor that passed off the bad info..Needless to say,I had a few words to say to her about her teaching credentials.
Makes me wonder exactly HOW some of these instructors are being trained?
Me personally??Well I think that ATVing is a family sport and should be enjoyed by ALL ages as long as those under the age of 16 are CERTIFIED and are under the direct visual supervision of an adult 18 yrs or older while operating.And the manufactures age/cc recommendations??They are there because of the 1988 Consent Decree agreement between the manufactures of ATVs and the Consumer Product Safety Commission..For the most part,these age/cc recommendations are redicules.
Now here in Michigan,we have the DNR that want to take away the riding portion [hands on'']out of our safety classes,which I ademently oppose..They want to give you a CLASSROOM ONLY session and based on your written test results,will give you an ORV safety certificate of completion.WOW''is what I say that..
Whats next?Perhaps they'll do the same thing with our drivers education program?I can see it now,give your 16yr old a license to drive a vehicle based on the results of a ''classroom only''test with NO actual training on a course or road..
Bill G
Program Director- Michigan ATV Safety Association
ASI Safety Instructor
Bombardier 2-up certified
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I will NOT allow ANY youth under the age of 16 to come to my ATV safety classes without a responsable adult also being present.
98% of the parents that sit thru my morning lecture are just ''astonished'' at what they did'nt know about the laws governing ORVs and are allways the first ones that come up to me at the end of my classes,shake my hand and are thanking me for telling them laws that they ''thought'' they allready knew..
It just makes no sense to inform little 8yr old Joey on what the State laws are without also training at least ONE of his parents OR some responsable adult that is ACTIVE in his/her life..
A well informed ADULT will make for a better youth rider!!!
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
We ALLWAYS mount our ATVs from the left side,even if the brake is set and the engine is OFF..It is just good practice and can assure a student that has inadvertantly left his/her engine running and left the quad in gear,that they wont accidently hit the throttle mounting from the right side.
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I instruct the hands on ATV Safety Institute class offered by the manufactures of ATVs for new,first time riders of ATVs..Im going into my 4th yr of instruction..The ASI course is a fabulous safety course,however,it does have a few shortcomings,especially when you factor in that it simple does not reach out to our youth between the ages of 6-15 the way it should,because of the age/cc recommendations that ALL ASI instructors MUST follow in order to instruct the class..For example,the manufactures RECOMMEND the following guidelines,
Ages 6-11,not over 69cc
Ages 12-15,not over 90cc
ASI Instructors MUST not instruct OUTSIDE of these guidelines..The problem here is that 97% of the youth that fall into the 6-15yr old age group are not riding the manufactures age/cc ATV,and in most cases,rightfully so..So that means that they CANNOT take the safety course offered by ASI unless they can somehow come up with a quad within the above guidelines,most DONT,so most youth dont get trained..
Now in Michigan,I have a program that I Direct,that,if in the eyes of a trained and professional safety instructor,your youth comes to our class on an ATV outside of the manufactures age/cc guidelines and he/she FITS the quad and properly displays that they can operate it correctly,we WILL allow them to take our safety course on that ATV and can also certify them on it..
The ASI safety course is SUPPOSE to be for those that have NO EXPERIENCE and are first time buyers..But I gotta tell you,very RARLEY do I get students that have never rode an ATV before.Most come to get their free incentive of either 75 or 100 bucks and come to get ''refreshed'' on the laws.Still,I think its a great course for adults.
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
SPIKE,
im sorry,but the only feedback I get from my students is a bunch of handshakes at the end of my class and a few students that will call me back throughout the yr to ask me a few ATV related questions.I have concidered doing a feedback chart like YOU mentioned but as of yet,I'd have to GUESSTIMATE,based on handshakes and verbal ''thank you,your class was excellant''on how many folks enjoy the class..And if I were a betting man,I'd say im pretty close to 98% or better..I know I sound cocky and confident,but based on the recommendations and comments from others,I put on one hell of a safety course and I LOVE what im doing..
Maybe someday real soon though?
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
SPIKE,
I agree with you and this will be an area that I will soon add to my classes.
Thank You,
Bill
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
In order for any youth to be trained from ANY ATV Safety Institute instructor,they MUST ride the appropiate sized ATV that the manufacture recommends for their age group or they will have to seek certification OUTSIDE of ASI..
This is a huge problem in Michigan,because most kids are not on the recommended ATV that is suggested by the manufacture.So in Michigan,we have our OWN STATE certified ATV safety program that will allow your youth to be trainind on the quad he/she takes to class,just so they properly fit and operate it.
I am all for this type of training and certification.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
NOBODY under the age of 16 can use the Raptor[because it EXCEEDS the manufactures age/cc recommendations of 90cc for ages 12-15] to take the free ASI safety course.In order to get your 75 dollar incentive from Yamaha,the owner[if 16 or older]can take the 4 hr safety course and in about 4 weeks,Yamaha will send you your 75 dollar check.
If you have a youth under the age of 16,than I can put him/her thru the DNR safety course IF I deem that the youth fits your Raptor and is in control of it while operating,and this course is NOT free,however,your youth would be certified to ride our 3100 miles of trails in Michigan with this certificate.
I gave you my office number in our PM.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
DRAGGINBUTT,
the manufactures will NEVER agree to adjust the age/cc recommendations..Its part of an agreement that they signed back in 1988 with the CPSC.
Back in the mid 80s when 3 wheelers were running rampent throughout the world and everyone was being injured on them,the Consumer Product Safety Commission stepped in and in 1985,they filed lawsuits against EVERY ATV manufacture that sold/produced a 3 wheeler.
In 1988,the CPSC BANNED 3 wheelers from being sold in the USA..In order for 4 wheelers to NOT be included in this same banning,there were certain things that the ATV manufactures HAD to agree to do with 4 wheelers.One of the things the manufactures HAD to agreed to do was to not SELL ATVs outside of the AGE/CC recommendations that we talked about earlier.They also included the warning lables that you see all over ATVs since 1988,and agreed to make safety training classes available for free to new buyers as long as the student was within the age/cc recommedations.So as you can see,this age/cc stuff was an AGREEMENT between the CPSC and the manufactures way back in 1988 so that 4 wheelers did not also get included in the same banning as the 3 wheelers.
QUAD4FUN,
thank you for your kind and conciderate words.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Education is the key to the future safety of our sport..Over 40% of Nationwide injuries on ATVs that require a visit to the hospital is happening to our YOUTH 16yrs old and under..As a parent and licensed ATV Safety Instructor/Director,this indicates one thing to me??TOO MANY PARENTS or ADULTS are NOT involving or including themselves in the ATV activities with their OWN youths.Far to many adults are handing the keys to the ATV over to their youth with NO proir training or NO visual supervision and too many times the end result in an injury..
Thus comes governmental intervention.When WE dont take care of our kids,the government will try and do it for us.
And their is still a VOLUNTARY agreement between the CPSC and the manufactures to abide by the old 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.Even today,stifff fines are in order for dealerships that do not abide by these age/cc recommendations.I know,I also work part time at an ATV dealership.
Posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Im in total agreement with you.Besides being a State certified Instructor,I also instruct the ASI safety course and ALL Instructors MUST abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations.I have a problem with this and dont instruct many youth thru this particular program,most my students in this course are 16yrs or older.ASI thinks that if your 12-15yr old youth does not properly fit on a 90cc ATV,than you should wait till he/she turns 16 yrs old to allow them to ride the bigger quads,I say BS!!!
ATVing IS a FAMILY sport and im NOT willing to wait for my kids to turn 16yrs old to enjoy something as pleasurable as ATVing just so I can keep the manufactures happy.I started my son Rocky out on his first 4 wheeler when he was 4 yrs old and he was as natural as they come.Today at the ripe age of 24,he knows the laws,respects property and the rights of others while operating.And you know what,I did'nt wait for him to turn 16 to start him out either.
Bill
Posted by: Dragginbutt
After having to constantly assure mommy for two years that it would be safe for us to purchase a mini quad for our youngest progeny, and spending the $ for a new machine, boots, pants, chest protector, helmet, goggles, gloves etc... my wife begrungingly gives me the green light to begin schooling of our son. She also has to tag along every time he rides for fear I won't make him wear all of his gear... For goodness sakes woman, I won't ride without it, why do you think I would let HIM go without it. I even put my helmet on when loading the damn things...
After waiting almost 2 years to get the into class, next thing I know up comes the safety training instructor quoting all this data and convinces my wife that no kid under 12 should be riding an ATV... What he did not tell her was the statistics also showed that the kids getting hurt and or killed are almost exclusively getting into trouble on larger full sized machines and that the mini quads have a much better safety record... When I tell her that.. of course she won't believe me, I am the one who "lied" to her remember? My opinion is biased in her eyes.
I just wish the safety training guys would just stick to teaching the right and wrong skills, and when they quote facts, that they give the whole picture so that parents can make their own decisions... not try and interject their own opinions, and twist the conversation as they see fit to make their point.
I feel that he has a bigger chance of getting hurt or killed on a bike, or that damn scooter she insisted on buying him which has already resulted in three trips to the emergency room to help keep bodily fluids where they belong... Statistically speaking, there are more injuries in soccer, baseball, and football than occur on ATV's each year.. but nobody seems to care about that. It's healthy exercise remember?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yeah... he is lucky I didn't get to talk to him... he called while I was out of the house on an errand... the thing I find very scary about the whole deal is 1) they want to take the parent out of the equation by interjecting their own opinion and preying on emotion, and it just seems to me to be vigilantism... 2) it appears he is not alone on his one man crusade. Our instructor friend from Minnesota has the same opinion, and the thread went on forever on that one, until being removed.
If these people as instructors have personal problems with teaching the legal, by their standards, under 12 rider, they have no business being training instructors in my book. I am tired of the statistical twisting to support their personal agenda's.
Stick to the training curriculum and keep out of the politics... we have enough problems with tree huggers and misinformed politicians trying to take our sport away from us, we don't need to fight this from within.
It is enough to make one wonder if the tree huggers are trying to destroy us from within by infiltrating the core of our sport. I wholeheartedly endorse everyone to contact the safety association and tell them to curb the political statements of their teaching staff!!!
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Just to let you all know where this is going... I told momma that we will just have to go ahead and make that Rhino purchase then... so he can ride along...
Now that seems to have caused a new set of fears in her, as she knows what I am capable of doing...
She has lived with me for 30 + years, and knows of the days when I was the hellion on two wheels that every cop and neighbor of hers was out looking to kick my sorry butt. They complained so much that I switched from a dual sport to a car with open headers, flame throwers the works... if they only knew what they were getting in to, they would have welcomed the bike riding...
I figured they should be applauding instead of throwing rakes and shovels at me....I mean the late Doug Demokas (sp), the wheelie king didn't have anything on me.... They should count their blessings.. I started driving quarter midgets (on alcohol) and upgraded to shifter karts in my neighborhood... they had it easy by the time I was 16....and chasing the girls on the other side of th etracks.
Ah yes.... those were the days... I'd kick my kids butts all the way around the block if they ever attempted to repeat my antics... but I can sure sympothize with them when they get caught by the authorities.... But that is another story... I got chastized in court when I laughed too hard at my older son's trial for doing mondo wheelies... That was when mommy started attending sessions for fear I would give the court the wrong impression...
I had to ask the judge if he had ever done anything like that when he was a teenager, he thought for a moment and smiled... and let the kid off... Never did tell us what he had done... fined me $25 for contempt of court though.....it was worth it I guess...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Not an issue on the raptor 80, I had arranged to borrow a raptor 50 for the class. ( my local dealer has a used one that he will let me use for a day)
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Well, I guess I have egg on my face now.... it turns out that Virginia has just adopted a law that outlaws kids under 12 riding anywhere in the state. Out of 50 states only 6 outlaw kids under 12, but many of the other 44 do impose some restrictions regarding size of machine and the need for adult over 18 supervision etc. Now I am in a quandry..... Even my dealer was not aware of this new one.... I expect it will impact a lot of dealer sales....
My apologies to all the safety instructors that I have inpuned....
Guess I will have to think seriously about moving to another state now...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I was kind of surprised myself at the different laws in effect, and of the that outlaw them, you are correct that there are differences in public versus private lands.. Virginia and Maryland are two that outlaw them altogether... most of the others are in the NE. I don't understand it, but in reality I do.. because it is easier to police, and it gives them a warm feeling in their bellies for saving us from ourselves. For those of you that do not have this problem, I'd advise you to keep tabs on what is going on in your local areas..I'd hate for this to snowball....
Whodat, I have to say I may have mis-judged your agenda... I applaud MN forward thinking approach to allowing a kid to demonstrate their ability to handle certain levels of machines instead of bracketing them by age. At least you have alternatives. I wish their were national guidelines that make sense...
In reality, the Virginai law is only a minor setback... I have to trailer the machines anyway to go riding.. so it is more of an inconvenience to me... I am NOT going to fill momma in on the whole deal though... because if I do, it will be sell it time...and I am not going to rob him of the experience.
So far, he has not exhibited a penchant for speed... which is a good thing I think... He likes to putt along in low gear and is content to crawl along the trails in the woods for now. It has also built his confidence, since he is in complete control of it.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
We keep hearing stats on Kids safety numbers in regards to other kids sports... here is the article...
http://www.atv-mag.com/news/news/2004june/june13_catv.html
Posted by: Dragginbutt
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ATV Rider Safety Improving</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
</SPAN><SPAN class=size81><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">(June 13, 2004)</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comficefice" /><ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) quietly released a study in the fall of 2002 that shows, on a per capita basis, ATV-related injuries were lower than most other recreational activities. The injury statistics were gathered through the National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS), which compiles statistics from a sampling of 99 hospitals, including children&39;s hospitals. <ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The statistics revealed the estimated rate of product-use related injuries was 201.0 for bicycles and accessories, and 73.9 for ATVs (all figures are per 100,000 population in the U.S. and territories). Other recreational activities had the following rates – baseball, softball 106.9; football 147.3; and basketball 232.3.<ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The statistics refute many false perceptions regarding ATV rider safety. Although the figures may surprise some, many people who ride and use ATVs regularly agree the study confirms their experience. <ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The ATV industry points to the extensive ongoing promotion of rider safety as an important factor for improving user safety. The Canadian All-Terrain Vehicle Distributors Council (CATV) is a national not-for-profit trade association and has played a leading role in promoting the safe and responsible use of ATVs across Canada.<ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Canada Safety Council, a national non-government not-for-profit public service organization, also plays an important role in improving rider safety. It administers ATV Rider Safety Training courses operated by certified instructors across Canada.<ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The courses are based on field-tested techniques regarding operating controls, reading terrain and analyzing risk, turning, ascending and descending hills, avoiding obstacles and stopping at slow and higher speeds. A separate course is also available for children under 14 whose parents permit them to ride an ATV.<ogt;</ogt;</SPAN>
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I get so darrned worked up trying to make sense of what you can do in one state, and can't do in another...Just try and plan a destination vacation that involves ATVs.... and kids under 12... and also throw in the fact that your state of residence does not register ATVs... and you will get a small idea of what I have gone through in the past few weeks....
ALL I WANT is consistency in this whole mess. MN has a plan for allowing kids to demonstrate their ability to ride and EARN a certification that allows them to be legal... sounds good to me. I don't even mind paying an out of state temporary permit fee to ride in another state... but don't ask me to register in every state I want to ride and pay sales tax every time too. Sounds like the guy who thought up tractor trailer registration has moved into the ATV world.
I have made plans and cancelled them 4 times now.... because of this mess. I guess I should just give up and sell all of them.. and hope everything goes bust.. yeah that would work.. and I hope the guys calling the shots are the first ones laid off...
Man do I wish for teh good old days when a kid could just go ride without having to dodge all these land mines and tank traps... Progress isn't always a good thing.....
For you guys that have large areas of land available to ride, PLEASE open them up to others.. maybe through a club where they can guarantee you that they will tread lightly... Because right now, you may be the only hope for many of us.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Just a simple question Who dat, if a 9 year old kid is unprepared, is he not the best candidate for the training? If he comes to the course already "in command" as you say, how does he get the required experience when he may not legally be able to ride without the certification?
I know I have leeft a lot out that would come in to play... I just want to focus on the point of the little ones that are the novices need a "legal" way of gaining some experience... the training course may be one method.... and I am not saying they will gain enough skill in a couple of hours to demonstrate the required ability... at least on the first visit... I am just wondering what the answer is going to be....
I have talked at length with my dealer friend... and I think we are going to look into first gaining credentials, then establishing a training curriculum that allows the kids to learn at their own pace and develope the slkills they will need to master. At least in Virginia, that may be difficult to do, but I am sure it beats learning as you go on your own method. I'd like to try and incorporate the parents as much as possible, as they are the ones that have to deal with Junior when they are away from class. And they will have to administer the "homework" as well, so they need to be familiar with the course work.
My friends focus will be on MX dirtbikes, but I want to work with kids on quads...
About time I stop belly aching and do something to make the situation a better one.....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Thanks to forum discussions like these, and a few enlightened people who have the knowledge we all seek, I think at least in my own case, a lot of us may have done an about face a couple times on this subject...(Hey, the Dragginbutt has been known to be wrong in the past...only now I can use my age as an excuse) .I think I am seeing the light.. but I would like to get a little clarification if I could... Is there a difference between a certification course, and a safety course that builds skills?
I have been (probably wrong about this) under the impression that the rider safety course that is offered to all who purchase new machines was going to be based on demonstration and hands on training on riding skills and would be focused on providing the basic riding skills to novice riders. I now believe that in looking at a curriculum, it looks like the riding skills portion may represent only a small part of the course work.
My wife and I were scheduled to attend a local course last Weekend, unfortunately it rained heavily the night before, and they had to cancel... now we wait until Sept.. anyway, we were asked to provide the users manual of the machines.. I expect that they will teach us basic maintenence, how to check fluids and air pressure etc... but I am hoping to see a lot of riding skill development as well.
My wife is a total novice, and this would in fact have been her first time on a machine... Until now, my sons and I have managed to keep this a male bonding thing in our family which was breached only briefly when my daughter decided to get into the act, but decided it was not for her after having to spend hours getting mud and crud out of her hair. Any way I am looking forward to getting the better half (and I mean that sincerely) muddy. (For some reason I keep getting this vision of female mud wrestling in my head) Ouch, I got bonked for that one....
So I now think the postonement was probably a blessing in disguise, as it will give me time to get her up to speed with the basics and between the two of us, we can both learn all the bells and whistles I got with the new Rubicon I purchased for "her" (yeah right).
Kudo's to Whodatinthemud for putting up with the heat... I appologise for being a little harsh in some of my posts. A throwback to my Drill Sergeant days....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
It is sad that the decisions come down to the $100 bucks and not whether they need it or not. I think everyone, no matter how good of a rider they think they are, could stand to learn something they didn't know. Even if it is just an update of the laws as you stated.
I admit, even after riding all my life, and ATV's for 6 years, that I feel in my heart that there is little to be gained other than the warm feeling of putting a hundred bucks in my pocket. But I am going in hoping to learn a few new tricks that I can apply when I am teaching my 9 year old. So I guess it is worth a few hours if it means I can learn a little more and pass it along.
In my wife's case however, she will gain a lot of benefit.
I congratulate the instructors that recognise the size issue, and I can accept the fact that you would be a hipocrite (sp) if you did not adhere to the guidelines you are certified to teach. I am heartened to learn that at least in some states, there are a few forward thinkers that have provided a means by which kids that don't fit the cookie cutter mold can find a way to receive the instruction, and in some cases certifications that enable them to move to a machine that better fits their needs.
Maybe some day, other states will learn from your examples and update their thinking. Until then, we can only hope.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hmm, I would have thought the feedback would have been a quality control function of the acrediting organization....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I just went through this same discussion with the folks in Virginia and Maryland.. the answer is NOPE. Meet the guidelines or stay away.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Hard to say since I don't know your age... the deal in VA and MD and many states out east, is that you have to meet the guidelines or they will not allow you to sign up for the course. Can't speak for your area... but it is getting to the point where a lot of people who need the training can't get it... at least not here. The issue is the instructors have to swear they will uphold the guidelines when they get their credentials. Otherwise there are a great deal of liability issues that come to play, and you can' really blame them for that.
You really need to check with your local trainer to get the scoop for your area... there seems to be discrepancies on how the rules are applied... but I believe they are going to be in line with the state requirements where they teach. MN has a program where you can move up if you can demonstrate ability.. but you have to talk to Whodatindamud to get a better low down on that program. WI on the other hand will let a kid under 12 to ride an 80... not sure if they can ride a 90 or not. They do not have to get their certificates until they reach 12.
that is the problem with the whole deal... there is no standard right now....that is abided by in all states. You can get dizzy trying to make sense of all the different interpretations
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Sounds like MI is a bit more progressive it it's thinking than many states. Which points to the problem I have been saying all along. The "guidelines" do not fit all situations, and the rules are not being enforced/applied consistently from state to state. I think MI and MN are on the right track in letting a kid demonstrate ability in your evaluation of whether they should get the training or not. In MD/VA, you can't even get that far...they flat will not even schedule you if you do not fall within the guidelines. And it takes months, if not a year to get a class date. I waited for two years to get a date for my wife and I, only to have it rain and it get cancelled. Now we are back to square one. They will not even let me borrow a 50 for my son, because the machine on record says 80cc... The only other choice I have is to buy a 50 for one day then sell it or put it in mothballs until my yet to be born grandchild gets old enough to ride.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
You would think that we as adults could solve this issue, but for now, that is impossible.... and that is the most frustrating thing about the whole deal. Everyone knows the issues, just about everyone agrees that the guidelines need to be revised.. so why can't it just get done? Leave the age limits the way they are, but as in some states, provide a means to stepping up if they can show the required ability.
I don't think we are talking putting a 10 year old on a banshee.. but a 10 year old on a 90 might make sense... at least give them a chance to take the safety course and make sure they have the fundamentals down. Heck, the factories could throw in a few kid sized machines for the schooling if they are needed. I bet it would lead to increased sales... but nobody is going to stand up and say it needs to change because they do not want to be the one liable.
And let's make it clear right now... ATV's do NOT kill or maim. A person, no matter what their age has a certain amount of implied responsibility when they climb up on that saddle. Treat it with respect and you should come out unscathed. Treat it without respect, and you get hurt... but don't blame the manufacturers for your stupidity or bad choices... or the land owners either... Take responsibility for your own actions.
And parents, you need to take the little tike aside and read them the riot act, then SUPERVISE the kid. That is your job! The kid's job is to have fun... but within reason, and by following your rules.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yes, I know the history of the CPSC agreements, but they are out of date... The quads are a LOT better and more sophisticated now days than they were back then. I agree fully with the safety concerns... as I always thought they were death traps, and I used to own and ride one...(CR250)
The point is also that the riding has changed as well.. and I hate to say it, but I think kids have changed too... they sure seem to be able to do stuff that we would never have even dreamed of doing. Maybe that is my gray hair showing.. I don't know.
Either way, it is pretty naive to think that things do not to be reviewed. The sheer numbers of machines that are out there and the obvious confusion in how they are being interpreted warrants it.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Just had an incident the other day that brings this all close to home... I was visiting a friend, and next door, the kids there were riding ATV's out in their yard. They had a friend visiting and he was bugging them to let him try his "Luck". well to make a long story short, here was a kid with no experience on a machine too big for him according to the guidelines out blasting around, and taking a jump. Well the inevitable accident waiting to happen occurred. And the kid was killed. Even with a helmet, it crushed his skull. Who was at fault? The parent who was NOT THERE SUPERVISING?... the kids for letting him take it without proper training? The parent who let their kids out with a machine that didn't meet the guidelines? I don't know.... Maybe it was our "Don't tread on me" point of view we take all to often without thinking.
I suspect the kid would still be here if a parent was present. Imagine getting a phone call from a parent telling you that your son who was sleeping over for the night with a friend was killed.
Come on parents, these things carry a lot of responsibility. They are NOT babysitters. Get out there and PAY ATTENTION!
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Without knowing it Glimp, I think you hit it on the head. The secret is parents becoming involved.. and I am not just talking about teaching them the right way to ride either... I mean you also need to get involved with the local clubs, and any other organization that gets face time with decision makers. Let your voice be heard, and your opinions known. I'd much rather work from the inside than sit back and not say anything, then bitch when the new legislation doesn't match my own view on what the world should look like... I think if enough of us get involved, we can formulate a better solution....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I don't think anyone would argue with the parental invlovement issue... but I hesitate to point fingers at training as a means of being the end all solution... It plays a major part though....and I would advocate that at least one parent/responsible adult attend with the juvenile. You can't unscrew the head and pour the knowledge in, but I suspect that no matter how good of a rider you are, a refresher will benefit the both of you. If for no other reason than to update you on local laws, changes etc.
I also take issue with those that claim the measure of being a "good" rider as one who can go faster than all the rest... to me, the person who places safety above all else, and repects the property and rights of everyone else, puts them way ahead on the list. Going fast is nowhere on my list... Maybe that came from months of laying in a hospital bed, and the years of physical therapy and pain management I have endured oveer the years when my throttle thumb overloaded my brain. It is amazing how many inteligent conversations you have with yourself when you are laying there in a full body cast after breaking your back.... of shattering your knee. Was it boredom or the drugs.. I don't know... but it sure is one of those life changing experiences.
Whodat, I sure hope that the professional organizations that you belong to listen when people like you and I speak. The guidelines are in need of tweaking... and I hope they are working on a review process that not only receptive to change, but also reflects a more realistic image of the sport today. When the original guidelines were produced, they were in direct response to the 3 wheeled death traps we saw back in the day... today's machines are much improved. And the sheer numbers of persons riding them has increased exponentially. I read somewhere that it is approaching 10 percent of the population... That rates high up there. It is time that work begins on updating the rules of the road, and this time, they should not be driven by the manufacturers...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
well yes... at least I think I did, but I still catch myself executing a brain fart once in a while... I should have learned the lesson when I broke the back... I thought I was reliving my childhood doing donuts on my warrior when my older son unexpectedly crossed my path. I let off the throttle for a second, and the tires bit.. next thing I know, I am up on one wheel doing a mondo wheelie. I paniced, and grabbed the bars harder, which included the throttle. I swear the darn thing jumped into the air and flipped upside down with me still on the pegs. It pounded me into the ground. broke the back, and unknown to me at the time, broke the leg just under the right knee and severed the ACL.. I have to tell you I had a very sick feeling laying there on the ground knowing the back had gone pop, and being paralized for about 2 days until the swelling abated and I was able to move my toes and legs. Yeah, I learned life's lessons the hard way... it is the only way I know how...
I didn't learn of the ACL injury until a few years later when I was again being stupid loading my son's dirt bike into my pickup and when I stepped into the bed, it popped. My upper bone ended up sliding down over the top of my lower bone about 6 inches.. all inside the extremely stretched skin. I had to lay there and pull everything back into their relative positions before I could move. (And no, I did not drop the bike on top of me in the process). Needless to say, when all was said and done, I think I managed to understand how a woman in childbirth must feel.
Now I get to use a cane to climb stairs... a result of poor surgury technique and a lack of Hamstrings in the right leg. (used to build a new ACL ligament) Thank God for the pain killers.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I don't have a problem with the way the dealers try and abide by the agreements of long ago.. my complaints have always centered around the way the guidelines are interpreted in each state, and the inconsistency brought about by this. The safety council is not a lot of help here either, as they abide by the State's interpretations. Where they could be a great help to the state authority... they choose to remain silent and take what they are given to work with. Somehow that speaks about their passion for the sport..or lack thereof. Not to say they are all bad apples... but there are a lot of them out there.. at least they must be concentrated in my local area.
Now with state laws changing every day, my 9 year old is getting shut out of more and more opportunites to ride.. and that sends a bad signal too, as I believe the best age to teach him responibility, respect and problem solving is now when he is open to the wonder of discovery, not when he gets into the teen years and he has formulated attitudes etc...
I want to share the excitement and wonder of riding through the mountain trails and have him learn what mother nature has provided for him to discover... but some states are taking that option away from me by outlawing all riders under 12.
With the handicap I have, I can't go for hikes or camp outs without some form of transportation aid... It is no wonder as parents we feel we are out of touch with our kids.. when the State is driving wedges between us.. even if they don't mean it to happen.
If I could just get my hands on a comprehensive training manual that borrows from the experience gained by instruction of many individuals, and lays out a course of action and a body of knowledge, I could teach him myself. In fact that is one reason I signed up for the course myself along with the mrs... so I can find out exactly what is being taught so I can compare notes with what I think are important skills for him to practice...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I hear all your arguments.. and I know what you are trying to say Whodat.. I just wonder though.. how did the voluntary guidelines that were supposed to control the sales of 3 wheel machines and only apply to dealers, get twisted in such a way that they have made their way into official policy, regulation, and in some states, the law, and applied to a whole different class of machine?
Seems that in addition to that, they were if my adled old mind is correct, they were a direct result of dealing with the aftermath of the craziness brought about by the 3 wheeled craze.. which by the way wasn't an issue with Honda's original ATC.. it wasn't until people started modifying them, and wanting to go much faster, and with the factories trying to out do each other by coming out with faster and more powerful models to claim bragging rights that we got into the situation in the first place. Which is exactly where we are headed today with ever increasing engine sizes, lighter weights, more suspension, louder pipes, more ga-ga that will in the end put us right back where we started from.
No, the whole limitation/restriction deal is a perversion from what it had originally intended to fix. We let it happen then, and we are letting it happen now. If they really want to get serious, then limit the engine sizes period. You don't need anything bigger than a 500.. do you want more, sure you do, but do you "need" it? Probably not.
I feel, and a lot of others agree with me, that the guidelines should be scrapped, and that we as a group should not be singled out just because of the past history of a class of machine that does not even exist today. When you start treating other forms of leisure activity like bicycles or boats with the same scrutiny that ATV's have to endure, then they will gain my attention and respect.
Do I support some form of regulation.. yes, if for no other reason than to make sure that things are on an even keel across the board no matter where my travels take me. But I don't believe to the extent that it takes away decision processes. Conversly, I don't buy into that argument that as a parent, I should not have my rights to raise my child how I see fit either.
We read about bad decisions being made by a parent all the time... and I think education is the key to solving much of the issue. But that education should be made available to anyone who seeks the knowledge, and not limited because of some outdated arbitrary guide that manufacturers were forced to sign to keep from being legislated out of business.
It is time to put things right...and all I ask is that we gain fair treatment that is in line with whatever statistical information available. Numbers wise, bikes represent a significantly higher risk to children.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Ok guys and gals, thanks to my new membership in Honda's Red rider club for ATV's, I did some checking into safety training. They are affiliated with several organizations, but I hit pay dirt on one site. Check out www.ATVSAFETY.ORG and hit the link to the info sheets. On that page, you will find several training related guides with titles like ATV riding tips, State Requirements at a glance, Rider training at a glance, Proper riding gear and industry a glance. All subjects worth reading if you are interested in training of the young, and not so young among us.
After bitching for weeks on this thread, I decided to educate myself first and take action to educate others instead of complaining about it. If anyone else comes across any other sources, let me know. I am looking at trying to get certified and put my money where my mouth is.
Posted by: FsT4WrD
I am buying land so my boys can ride next year, they will be 3, 7, and 8. There will be no stopping the 3 year old so he will be tethered. As far as the other 2 they need to be on and riding as soon as possible cause at 7 and 8 they will take in the do's and don'ts alot easier then a 12 year old. I was 12 once and everything I was told not to do, I did it as soon as my parents turned there head. I atleast know with teaching my boys to ride and having there own quads at there ages, will only make me more comfortable when they do turn 12, have 5 years of riding under there belt and go ride with there friends and I am not there.
Posted by: FsT4WrD
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
So its OK to let my 14 year old daughter fly the airplane if we want her to? Is that what your saying?
If you are confident and comfortible to let your creation fly a plane by herself then I say let her do it. Cause no dad would let there child put there self in harms way.
Posted by: FsT4WrD
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
And are you prepared to answer the judge why - when knowing the federal minimum age requirements - you put your 3 year old on a atv that weighs 185 pounds and half of that is 400 degree metal? This happens. And fathers have lost custody or have supervised visitation because of it.
lol Really don't know why I would have to answer a judge, my lawyer would do that. Putting my 3 year old on an atv that weighs 185lbs and half of which is most likely only about 180 degrees plus with me walking behind him with the motor being tethered kinda makes me feel a little more comfortable then strapping him into my 1/4 ton pick up which runs about 260 degrees with no tether. There is a lot of stupid people out there but every child wanting to enjoy the sport of ATVing shouldn't have to be penalized for stupid peoples actions.
With this thread it kinda sheds a little light on the behavior of our teenagers today. I see it on the news every night, teenage drunk driver dies, teenager dies from brutal beating from classmates, 3 students shot and killed because they sat at the wrong lunch table. These things are happening because we have leashed and over done it with limitations to the children of this country. I understand there is "rules" and "laws" but we are starting to over do it here.
And airplane compared to a 50cc quad, hmmmm 50cc's can do a heck of a lot of damage to a rabbit, adult knee cap, tent, car door, & some major bodily damage to a small child. Now airplane..... death, multiple deaths, and major catastrophe.
Not wishing and letting a responsible, well instructed, taught, trained child ride an ATV , fly a plane, drive a race car, play football, climb a tree, and play hockey in the street sounds a heck of allot better then letting them play PS2, game boy, watch Power Rangers, or surf the internet and see bondage, porn, beheadings, perverts , and a bunch of old guys bicker in message boards.
You have your views and points that are meaningful as does others have views and points that are meaningful.
Ride safe, fly safe , and wear a helmet BR>
Posted by: stevendsm95gst
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Ok - then try this related problem.
My 14 year old daughter can out fly any student pilot I've ever come across. Because of her years and years of flying expereince with me and with flight instructors she can hold tolerances and perform to standards way beyond that required for commercial pilots.
She is as good in the clouds flying insturments as anyone else. Her knowledge of the rules and regulations are also better then most and she can score over 95% on any one of several different commercial pilot written exams.
Our family enjoys flying together to fly-in breakfasts and airshows. We are blessed having two airplanes and if she would be allowed to fly one of them - we would all be able to go together (the other airplane can carry 4 of the 5 of us) The way it is now - someone always gets left out of the fun.
We all know that accidents happen and they are unavoidable.
Why then - should she not be allowed to get her pilots license and be able to fly along side of me in the other airplane under my direct supervision?
No - I don't want to wait for her to age to the minumum of 17 years old for a license. Its not fair - she fits in the seat just like a 17 year old would. and we want to do this now and not wait 3 years just because of some dumb rule.
We paid a lot of money for this extra airplane and we shouldnt be restricted from family entertainment just because some government idiots who proly never rode in a airplane decided that you must be 17 to have a pilots license. We have a radio in both airplanes and I can tell her when she's doing something wrong.
If anyone knows of a state where my 14 year old can fly the airplane please let me know.
And P.S, there are hardly any fatailities where being 14 and the pilot of the airplane are a factor.
- - - - -
A simular delima - just food for thought
so its ok for your 14 year old daughter to fly a plane alone but my little brother cant ride a mini quad because he doesnt fit the age limit? Your being one big hippocrit here.
Posted by: stevendsm95gst
you can parent your children however you want. However you have no right to tell others how they should parent their own children.
Posted by: stevendsm95gst
i dont care what your daughter does as long as she isnt going to crash into my house. You can be sure my little brother wont crash into your house either on his quad. He has his own little track out in our front yard to rip around on.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
After waiting almost 2 years to get the into class, next thing I know up comes the safety training instructor quoting all this data and convinces my wife that no kid under 12 should be riding an ATV...
I tell you what! I think I'd have lit into his butt. There are 4 year olds that handle a quads more responsibly than some 15 year olds. You can't label an age and only the parent knows whether are not their child has the discipline necessary to handle one.
According to him, I should probably be dead since I started at 5. Well guess what? I'm still alive and kicking and I'm a better driver and rider for the experience.
That just flat makes me mad.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
the safety training instructor quoting all this data and convinces my wife that no kid under 12 should be riding an ATV...
Did he say no kid under 12 should be on an atv or no kid under 12 should be on a Raptor 80? While I don't agree turning you away was the right thing to do, he might have worried about being liable. If so, buy new stickers and try to pass it off as a Yamoto 70 or something.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
So there is no law standing in your way?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
If my kid had beens a little taller I would have considered a kart or a buggy to keep my wife off my back, but I couldn't find one with the features I wanted for a 44" person.
They don't fit most atv laws because they don't have a "saddle". No certification or registration required. In my state anyway.
I think something like this would be fun for a larger kid:
buggy
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: Quad4Fun
Hold the parents responsible for letting their kids ride oversize quads, whether they get hurt or not. IF they catch your kid riding a quad that is to big, you get the hefty ticket.
Problem is what defines an "oversized quad"? Is a 70cc quad that has been modified to produce 12 hp safer than a stock 80cc that produces 6 hp? It's OK for 6 year old to that 70cc according to the industry standards. BUT not the 80! BR>
Those type of laws make no sense to me.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
This is what my state shows as guidlines. I thought it was the same as the CPSC. I could be mistaken.
Minimum Age
ATV Engine Size
6 years and older
Under 70cc
12 years and older
70 - 90cc
16 years and older
Over 90cc
Posted by: spike99
Dragginbutt,
When I read your post, I reflected back on our situation with guns. In the old days, I grew up with guns. BB, Pellet, 22, 410, 45, single shot gun, etc. Under my parent's strick control, we had a blast shooting targets and eliminating ground hogs in our huge farm. On a good year, we even had Deer and Pheasant on our dinner table. Today, if you even mention the word "gun" in my old community, be prepared for an immediate lecture. Lecture on how bad guns are, how they WILL kill somebody, etc. Why? All because of media's and government's negative publicity on guns. Are mini's comparable to guns? NOT even close!!!! But the media's and government's sure are doing a great job in putting these tools into the same "negative emotional" catagory. Sounds like the emotional brain washing have succeeded with your ATV Instructor and your wife too.
.
Posted by: spike99
"Stick to the training curriculum and keep out of the politics...".
Like many of this forum, I've had more then my share of living below poverty, doing massive amounts of physical work and working 18 hour days just to save a few dollars. A few dollars to pay my own way into college. When I read your comment (above), I reflected back on my college days. I had one instructor who's head was so wide, you could see it 50 feet away. Out of no where, she started lecturing her 15 students why anyone would ever want to be an auto mechanic. She called them cheaters, she called them "grease monkeys" and many other names in the book. After 10 minutes of lecturing my entire class about bad things of being a "grease monkey", she immediately stated her son would NEVER be allowed to attend auto mechanic school. As quoted, "over my dead body". She then requested a 10 minute break. As she sat on the back porch of our portable, I looked at her thought "what a Prejudice so and so!!!". Sounds like your ATV Instructor is prejudice as well..... Funny how folks like this hide it so well..... Until one day, their true colours appear.... Something to think of....
.
Posted by: spike99
Here's a cut / paste from another forum. It contains some excellent points...
------------------------------
This is taken verbatim from the Featured Letter in Letters to the Editior in the Monday June 14, 2004 Chicago Sun Times . It is in reference to a May 31 article that was largely against ATV's
ATVs aren't dangerous - people are
"Between a rock and a hard place," the May 31 article addressing the proliferation of injuries and death attributed to riding ATVs, seemingly seeks to assign most of the blame for injuries and deaths directly to the manufacturers. This is very wrong.
Whether it's ATVs, dirt bikes, mountain bikes, skateboards, scooters, cars, guns, motorcycles or a simple cup of hot coffee, the families of people who are injured or killed are taking advantage of our litigious society in pointing their collective fingers at manufactures. In reality, isn't their own carelessness and recklessness to blame? Not one of the aforementioned items dangerous until placed in the hands of people (or their unsupervised children).
I believe those injured or killed could not have cared less about personal safety because of their blatant disregard of manufacturer's explicit instructions and warning regarding safe handling and/or operation. They also disobeyed their parents' wishes. Furthermore, any laws and rules set forth by the municipalities in which these people reside are ignored.
And isn't it odd not one of the parents accepted responsibility for their ill-fated decision to allow their children to ride alone or without an adults close supervision?
Until we as a society learn to accept a modicum of personal responsibility, even toliet paper manufacturers are fair game.
- Michael A. Collins, Cary
Posted by: spike99
WhoDatInDaMud,
Many thanks for your DNR & other safety Web sites. Despite our mud throwing "moments" over your emphasis on safety, I know your http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/vehicle/atv/index.html and http://kare11.com/links/contact_detail.asp?NEWS_ID=63469 links will help many people on this forum. Thank you for showing us your wells. Not too sure if all the horses will drink, but at least we know now know where very valuable information exists. Even if the "yourg riders" on this forum don't meet your minimum age of 12, I'm hoping many will order your CD package. Even if it helps one kid be a better rider, your CDs will be well worth it.
Question: Can folks out of your region call the listed 1-800 numbers or yourself to order the CD? For the improvement of many kids (and their parents), I'm hoping YES.
Again, thanks for the info...
.
Posted by: spike99
MUDDY4LIFE,
I would agree 1000%. Spending time to teach little Joey how to be a better / safety rider is a waste of time if their Supervisoring Escort doesn't beleive in safety and/or telling the young rider to break the rules each time they go quading together. I used to be a hockey coach and currently am a baseball coach. From my coaching experiences in these sports, I can tell you that "life's rules" sure are different from a coach's perspective. To get maximun learning and long term gain within these sports, we must teach the attending parents as well. Later, the parent then becomes our unofficial assistant who will continue to teach their own kid within their back yard. Teach the parent who will continue to teach the student is an excellent approach in any sport.
Here's a simple safety question. If a quad's engine in running and you need to mount it, which side of the quad should the rider mount the quad? For example, hande brake side or gas throttle side? I know the answer - but you'd be amazed how many people I see mount their motocross and quad bike from the unsafe side. Something to think of....
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Posted by: spike99
MUDDY4LIFE,
During your recent classes, I'm sure you ask each parent (and possible young rider) to fill in a Class Evaluation report. One of those, "how was the instructor?", "how was the environment?", "do you feel what your learned will benefit your ATV riding life?" type feedback things. Hopefully, you do this for many of your sessions. As a favor, can you pull out many copies of their written feedback? No names or personal details. Just wondering if we could obtain some "unfiltered" and randon feedback who have taken your course, or courses of your coworkers... Why? Hopefully you've received more positive "wow! I didn't know that?" feedback then "was a waste of my money" feedback.
As a side note: I really like your comments of "my course and our training programs isn't perfect!". When people state this, I immediately pay attention and listen. To me, you aren't on this forum to shove laws and death kill stats down people's throats. You are not here to force ALL uncertified kids off minis. You are here to help our sport and our industry to become better - within the ethical boundaries of being an ATV Instructor. I like that in a person. If wondering, I'm sure many would pay the $75-$100 if the course has lots of "meat & potatos". If a course is only paper work and theory (re: what I call lettice), then people don't like paying the bucks. Something to think of.....
Thanks for your future "random and unfiltered" evaluations from your previous class members....
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Posted by: spike99
MUDDY4LIFE,
Due to my profession, I have to take 6-10 courses per year. At the end of every session I take, I have to fill in one of those "anonymous" class questionairres. You might want to consider using an "anonymous" class questionairre at the end of your course. One of those 10 minutes feedback things that asks the students what they liked and don't like. Major areas are Instructor, Environment, would they apply it in real life, etc. groupings that are rated between 1-5. Each section could also have an area of free form text. In these area, students (and parents) could enter in their own words what they liked and areas of improvement. With feedback from the previous class, chop off the bottom 10%, chop off the top 10% and work with the 80% DATA. 80% should represent the "norm" of your students. What people put in writing vrs what they say is amazing. For example, "too much time spent on theory" and more time should be spent on practicing "K-Turns". For my son, he doesn't like theory. Only 10% of it sticks. But if you show him how to perform a 3 point turn on the side of the hill 2 times, he's got it nailed down really good. Hopefully, everyone on this forum who does trail riding has shown their kid how to perform safe K-Turns. Could be a life saver one day....
Anyway, "anonymous" class questionairres is something to consider in the future....
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Posted by: Quad4Fun
I think that is ridiculous for states to outlaw kids under 12 from riding at all. There are ATV's made for that age group, that are safe for them to ride. If anything, make a law stating what they can and can't ride, but that is sad they keep them from having fun. Hold the parents responsible for letting their kids ride oversize quads, whether they get hurt or not. IF they catch your kid riding a quad that is to big, you get the hefty ticket.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Raptorlegs,
I agree it is hard to judge "oversized" quad. My 9 y/o daughter is a good example, physically she is almost to big for her LT80. But the "guidelines say you should to be 12 y/o to ride it.
The burden I guess would be to show negligence on the parents part by letting their kid ride a quad that was to big for the child. Which might not be that easy
That is the problem with "guidelines", they don't have much bite to them. Although the dealers won't sell you a quad if they know it is for a kid under the age "recommended" for that size quad.
But yet your teenager can go get any car they want right off the bat when they start driving, no matter the horsepower or top speed. They don't have the driving experience yet to handle the speed that cars will go. Probably not a great example, but the same principle. We all know how teenagers like to drive sometimes. I've seen more than my share(to many in fact) of dead teenagers due to their inexperience at driving and doing stupid things. Should we limit what they can drive, and put throttle limiters on their cars? Obvioulsy not very practicle, but would save more of their lives I'd bet.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Good saftey/trivia question. I will give that one to all my buddies I ride with, see what they come up with.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Quote
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
I will NOT allow ANY youth under the age of 16 to come to my ATV safety classes without a responsable adult also being present.
98% of the parents that sit thru my morning lecture are just ''astonished'' at what they did'nt know about the laws governing ORVs and are allways the first ones that come up to me at the end of my classes,shake my hand and are thanking me for telling them laws that they ''thought'' they allready knew..
It just makes no sense to inform little 8yr old Joey on what the State laws are without also training at least ONE of his parents OR some responsable adult that is ACTIVE in his/her life..
A well informed ADULT will make for a better youth rider!!!
Bill
Amen to that, excellent point and very well said. That is one of the best opinions I have seen in any of the topics on this whole Forum
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Also, can anybody get a copy of the CD you talked about? I would love to get one.
I put all my kids through our own training. There is no requirement in my state. I got them a LT80, and age wise they cannot go through the safety course. I think my training was more thorough and ongoing that just the half day class. It did include everything they teach in the ASI course, just added a few things and very repetitive. I continue to work with them every time we go out. I didn't care about the money, just want my kids to be safe.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
WhoDatInDaMud,
I took your above airplane story as you meant it, that was pretty funny. So heres mine.....
So, if my 15 y/o daughter is a great driver, can I let her drive our other car so we can get all five of us and all our camping gear to the campground? LOL img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
I know how to drive drive a big Tractor/Trailer semi truck very well, but I don't have my CDL license to be able to legally do it. But am moving and need to get all my furniture and household stuff to my new house two states away. Can I do it anyway because I will be safe??????? Why do I need a license??????? img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> LOL
Laws are laws, we have to follow them. IF we don't like them, try to change them.
The ATV guidelines are obviously way outdated, and need to be changed. WAY easier said than done.
In our state, they are still just that, guidelines.
But the dealers still can't sell the "wrong" size quad to the "wrong" aged rider.
The answer is to change all the BS so families can play and enjoy themselves.
I think this issue goes way deeper than I want to go into, but hopefully there are those out there working to make them more sensible.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
ya, what whodat just said to.
The guidelines are there just like laws are.
To protect people (sometimes kids) from other people (or parents) that are to stupid to think or be safe.
And unfortunately the law abiding and safe people have to do things because of those stupid people.
Kinda short and ugly version, but that kinda sums it up.
If everybody was perfect, safe, considerate of others, and we all loved each other, we wouldn't need laws and regulations.........
Posted by: asfasasu3
All this is nice and all, but I do not agree with all of the age and size limits that our goverment is putting on us. I am a father of 2 sons that are riding against the recomended age/cc limits. I have a 8 year old riding an 80, and a five foot tall 10 year old riding an 300. Should I be fined right off the bat for letting them ride? (in which they do very well) Then why not fine the guys that ride street bikes without helmets? Or the suv's that have truck plates on them when it's obvious that they are not trucks? (Yes it is against the law if the primary purpose of the vechile is to transport people) Why not fine someone if any alcohol is found in their system when driving? (why is there a mim limit anyway?) I don't believe that all kids should ride quads, but I really think this is going the wrong way in limiting people. Whats the answer? I think it is obvious, stop selling quads to lazy parents! Parents that never teach their kids anything about a quad, but will buy them one and tell them to be safe! I started my kids off at a early age, and now they ride as well as most adults, and I have more than a hundred witnesses to prove it. I have spent a tremendous amout of time with them riding. I do not let them ride without me. I do not let them ride double, or if their friends are over and don't have a ride for themselfs. (which is how I have seen most kids get hurt riding, with friends riding double) Its a shame that stupid parents need to be told how old a kid should be to ride. They should have a idea from paying attention to them when they do other things. (like riding bikes and such)
Right now I am happy riding private ground, we have a huge area to ride in. (alot of the neighbors are in the same boat I am and we all share our trails with each other. Roughly 2500 acres) It would be neat to go camping and riding somewhere else but that will have to wait till the boys are older. When a kid can ride better than the c.o. thats trying to stop us and give us a ticket, is that fair? When a kid has to stop and help the C.O. through a tight spot on the trail because they are afraid and don't have the abilty, is that fair for them to get a ticket? Been there, seen that!!!!
Don't put all kids of the same age in the same class, THAT, is unfair !!!!!
Posted by: lapeerbanshee
Hey Muddy4LIFE can the ATV be over the reccomended CC size to get the incentive money and would we have to bring our ATV to the class with us or could we just bring the papers??
Posted by: lapeerbanshee
so if my ATV is over 90cc's i have to stay from the course and then i cannot get my ATV safety certificate huh ?? Explain to me why i have to stay away.
Posted by: lapeerbanshee
so we have to bring our ATV to your class even if above the reccomended size ? Another question is do we have to bring in our newer quad to prove that it is really mine (for the incentive money) or can we just bring in the papers because i just got a new 2004 raptor that is still in the break in period?
Posted by: lapeerbanshee
im 15 and i ride a banshee no problem and it is bored and cranked to almost 400cc's, and i know that there is no way i could properly fit on a 90cc quad which i probably weigh more then. i started out on a 250 fourtrax when i was 12 then i felt that i had outgrown that and i have had my banshee for more then a year with only a few minor accidents but i personally feel that this quad suits me the best.
Posted by: MXF150
We bought a Maxfine MXF150 for our son a month ago. It's automatic and has a govenor. We will adjust the speed as his experience grows. He's getting the hang of it quickly and is riding like a person with much more experience in just a month's time. We just went through a hassle with a woman who lives down the road in our neighborhood who is ignorant about the laws in our area. As far as the safety course goes, the guy has to do his job but shouldn't be overzealous in the area of grim statistics. From a wife and mother of two boys to another, I say teach your kids to be safe, obey the law, respect the land, and most of all- have fun! Your kids could get hurt and probably will, but the incidence is reduced with proper safety training and protective equipment. Get the bandages ready, say a prayer and send them on their way! Good Luck.
Posted by: Glimp
Here is the problem as I see it. The state wants to take responsibility for kids safety. They think that parents are incapable of keeping their children safe without intervention. Theyre probably right with some parents I've seen. In the process, just like in every new line of regulation that comes along, those of us who are responsible and who do the right thing to the best of our ability get penalized in the process.
Taking my child to a training course will not make him a better rider. Me sitting in one, listening to an instructer who has ridden less than 1/10 the number of years as I have will not teach me how to raise my kids or how to ride my quad. Learning the laws might be useful if I didnt know them but all that requires is a simple pamphlet or book which I have yet to see in my state.
Child training courses are a 10% solution. The majority of people who would let their kids ride unsupervised would not bother to bring their kids to a training class. Those parents who are responsible usually dont need it. Advocates say that not allowing dealers to sell to families without the training solves the problem but we all know that is not entirely true. Used quads, quads bought out of state and online all avoid these rules.
We need better parents not more students. I'm sure the self rightous will say they know training has saved lives and they may be right. But I see training as the smallest part of the equation. Guns, ATV's, watching telivision and eating Mcdonalds food are all potentially harmful to children. Training courses and regulation arent the solution. The solution is changing the mindset of society towards good parenting and social and individual responsibility and away from working moms, the portrayal of every father figure as a dumba$$ and the general disintigration of individual responsibilty.
And no I'm no Politician. I hate politics but I can see what's going on and I don't like it.
Posted by: Glimp
I'm not against safety guidelines but we need to realize a few things.
Even being the best parents we can be, accidents happen and will happen. The goal is to make those infrequent as we can but they will happen weather to children or adults. But, just like cars, that doesnt mean we abandon riding all together. Danger is a part of life. There is no such thing as a perfectly safe sport. People hurt themselves playing table tennis and we won't even talk about football.
Education is a good starting point but there are alot more problems at work here than just ATV safety. If kids have the wrong attitudes (weather brought on by poor parenting or genetics) they will probably never be safe on a quad till they've had some stiches. Ever hear of the painful truth? Or that the truth hurts? I learned what it means to ride within my ability by flipping my little kdx75 when I was 8. 14 stitches on my arm as a result and I'm glad it happened. It sounds like Dragginbutt learned his lesson a bit more painfully than I did...
Posted by: tiered
i have been riding for 29 years. i don't know when riding became a privilage instead of a right. but i don't agree with the age requirement. parents should be in charge and responsible for there children not the government. i started teaching my boy how to ride at the age of3.5 on a jr50 and soon moved to a kx60 at 5 years old. after to many trips over the handle bars and neck injuries i bought him a 200 blaster and for the past 2 years and not 1 accident or injuries i won't put him on a bike to trail ride. i'am also training a 5 and 8 year old on some 90 quads and they do very well as long as i limit the throttle. my oldest is now 10 and he looks pretty stupid on the little 90. he's 5foot4 and does not fit on a 90cc machine.we ride on orv trails and will continue to do so. so i guess i'll just pay the tickets if they catch us. i'm not going to let anyone ruin my fun and my kids fun.img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
