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Posted by: jaybeecon55
A question for WhoDat. You say:
<i>As a DNR ATV Safety Instructor my job is to test youth to see if they meet the knowledge, skill and ability requirements so that they can ride larger than 90 cc quads once they turn 12 years old. We try to get them started off right and safely. Telling anyone to dissregard the laws and requlations would make us hipocrates and undermine respect for what it is we are trying to accomplish - safe legal youth operation of ATV's that fit them.</i>
An excellent statement and one that I agree with. If I read this correctly, you are advocating that kids 12 to 16 CAN ride larger that 90cc quads once they pass an approved safety course. A great idea, but the thing is, this in itself is in violtion of the current CSPC regs. So, do you (or your state) choose to disreguard the 90cc/ under 16 year old cap? I believe that Wisconsin has a similar view: under 12 can ride up to 90cc, 12 to 16's must have a safety course but no cc cap is mentioned. And if you (or your state) do choose to not follow the CSPC guidelines, then do you agree that the current cc/age limits are unrealistic?
This is the quandry that most of find ourselves in. The current guidelines exist solely as a liability limiter - put a 15 year old with years of riding experience on a Z250 and if for any reason he is injured, everyone points a finger at the sticker on the fender and says, "I told you so". The guidelines are flawed as they were created by people with no ATV experience whatsoever. As parents who wish to share ATVing with our children, most of us have no choice but to disreguard the CSPC. My 12 year old is moving from a Honda 90 to an Ozark 250. The Ozark fits him better, and with 6 years riding experience is a good match for his riding skills. As a better machine (brakes, suspension, available power) than the TRX, it is a safer ride for him than the smaller bike. Yet, in my state, there is no safety course that will allow him to test out on a 250cc machine. He has passed MY safety course, which I bet would make any testing procedure by any state seem like a walk in the park. He wears his helmet or he doesn't ride. He only rides in the company of adults (parents or uncle). We are in radio contact with him at all times. He's never be hurt more than a few bumps or scratches but the possibility exists that he could sustain a more serious injury at any time - this is the reality of ATVing.
We are regulating the wrong thing - instead of limiting cc size we should be forcing some stricter parental guidelines.
Jaybee
Posted by: Trx440
Snowmobiles vs. ATV's
ATV's ridden 12 months, Snowmobiles ridden 6 months.
Fall off ATV land on hard ground. Fall off Snowmobile land on somewhat soft snow.
My experience; many kids have THEIR OWN dirt bikes, ATV's. Most kids ride their parents sleds. There fore they put more mileage and hours on ATV's.
Riding a Snowmobile around your yard sucks. Sleds are fun if you can get out on a lake or a groomed trail and ride long loops. This makes riding a sled more of an event. Riding your ATV around the yard can be more fun. You don't have to be able to go on long loops to have as much fun. If you ride eveyday which an atv offers it will increase the likelyhood that something bad will happen.
These are a few common sense reasons that skew the safety comparison between the ATV and snowmobile.
Posted by: Trx440
Quote
Originally posted by: Bobman
P.S. I don't wear a helmet....but I accept all responsibilities for any damages sustained to my empty noggin.
You fall off your quad, get your empty noggin smashed and go to the hospital where you ring up a $250,000 bill. You pay the portion that your insurance doesn't [under $10,000??]. Who pays the rest?? The Empty Noggin Fairy?? Everyone else does, that's who. You can't afford to ride without a helmet, so do US a favor and get a helmet or sign a waiver that states whenyou run out of money, pull the plug, since you take FULL responsibility for your empty headed actions.
Posted by: Trx440
Excuse me,
Can someone remind me how to unsubscribe from a thread??
Posted by: Trx440
Not harsh enough and if you're defending him you'll get a taste too.
I ALWAYS wear a seatbelt and if someone were to hit me, I would have their auto insurance, then my auto insurance and then my health insurance to cover me. Most likely, their auto insurance would cover it anyways. I am 38 years old and have yet to be in an accident. I haven't had a ticket since I was in high school. I drive over 50k every year. I am obviously a safe driver. Hell, my car has @ 8 airbags.
Weed eat with out safety glasses, are you nuts???
Don't use a chain saw, can't comment on those things.
Don't smoke, never once. Don't abuse alcohol, I like a few glasses of red wine every week. Never eat fast food.
I will have a response to whatever you say, I'm one of those kinda guys.
It sickens me when I hear about needless deaths or injuries on quads. 95% of them are needless. I will NEVER be part of that statistic.
Whereas driving a car seems a necessity in this world, riding a quad is not. That is a priviledge some would like taken away from people with no common sense. Are you one of those people?
Posted by: Trx440
You're right. Is that what you need to hear? If so, go somewhere else.
You wanna ride helmetless, sign a waiver relieving the insurance company [and the tax payers] of burden when you get your MC stamp. In regards to cycles, it's not IF something will happen, it's WHEN.
Maybe I'll have my buddy post on this subject. He's got a titanium plate and the scars from 300+ stitches on his scull. He's easy to spot cruisin' on the weekends. He's the only guy with a full face helmet on a Paul Yaffe chopper. Unfortunately he's also easy to spot with his helmet off also. He'll be the first to tell anyone to where a lid.
I voice my opinion ALL the time, especially to those that need a dose of common sense. You wouldn't happen to vote Democrat would you? If so, I might just be getting started with you.
Posted by: Trx440
Quote
"just think there are so many more important agendas out there than if an adult wears a helmet....
....for example, mandatory castration of men convicted of sexual assault might be a cause worth fighting for."
Well, this is ATVConnection, we talk about atv issues here. If you want to talk about castration go to www.testicle-de-connection.com.
To all of you that think you can do what you want and you shouldn't be brow beaten. Please give me your address so that I can buy a house next door to you. I will start by painting it hot pink, I'll let the grass/weeds grow to 3 foot and I'll park my collection of parted out AMC Matadors up on blocks in the front yard. When you finally get enough nerve to approach me about it, I'll tell you to pound sand. You see, I'm from Western Kentucky and where I'm from, that's called art.
Posted by: Trx440
I hope none of you think I am advocating new laws, we have enough of them already. Besides, we all know you can't legislate common sense.
What some have offered others' here is constructive [ albeit slightly sarcastic ] critisism. Some feel that if you are on this board, you are apart of our community because by your participation in such discussions it shows you have an interest in what is going on.
Some of us might even care that you or one of your loved ones might bump their head when they go boom.
But please drop the Harley Hog Headed attitude about right to choose, ride free-live free, blah blah blah.
I promise, no one here will TAKE AWAY your right to ride an ATV without a helmet. I wouldn't do it if I could. I will voice my opinion about your actions, that is just as American as you exercising your rights.
Example:
Sean Penn has EVERY right to say whatever he wants about the U.S. but then he cries when people voice their opinions about his opinions. $hit flies both ways. I won't watch another one of his movies. Turns out his best role was as a pot smoking, dummy. Isn't that art immitating life.
Oh, as far as the hunters and the 5mph example.....
I watched a girl turn a Sportsman 500 over doing less than that in Colorado on an ATV Tour. No helmet and a 6 inch gash from her forehead to the top of her head. I know she's a girl.....but it could have happened to anyone..........without a helmet on.
It's been fun. Remember, your actions can effect others even when you think it doesn't. You don't have to change, just be respectful of others concerns and opinions like they are respectful of your rights to
BE DEAD WRONG!!!
Posted by: Trx440
Confused,
The accident did happen off-camber. Had it been an off-cantor accident it would have involved a bad singer in a Jewish synagogue. 550lbs on your head can't be much fun even at 0 mph. Let me ask you a question: had that happened to your wife and her skull would have been fractured, would you have sued them??
Is there anyone here who would not have?
Finally, I'll have to disagree with you about "At Close Range". It is one of my favorites. Christopher Walken plays one of the all time great narcisistic psychopaths. I believe anybody could have played the Penn brothers' parts but let's face it; they are very believable as white trash.
Posted by: Trx440
Glimp,
That was not a rhetorical question. I was literally asking if there is anyone here who wouldn't sue? I'm sure you would have taken the insurance companies money to pay for the medical bills, even if you had been neglegent in providing safety for yourself or a loved one. Why wouldn't you sue? Why do you draw the line there?
BTW,
The REASON I was asking who wouldn't sue is the company doing the atv rental and tour did not offer helmets. We had brought our own knowing we were going to take this excursion. I believe she had never ridden a quad before. The tour guide took off with 3 guys for a spirited run up the fire road so I trailed the 3 pokey wives/girlfriends [along with my wife who is also pokey]. Good thing, I had to roll 2 of those Sportsmans off the girls [one girl was ok and it didn't land on her] who got into the accident and we were holding her forehead and scalp together. Bet they sued.
Posted by: Trx440
Which I'm sure is worthless in this situation.
Once again, I'm not advocating sueing. I didn't have to worry about it, we had our helmets on.
I just want some of the "Don't tell me to wear a helmet" guys to admit they would sue if that happened to them or one of their family members. They would take handouts / social welfare / insurance payouts if they crashed and were injured without a helmet on. It's just another example of the give me, give me mentality.
Maybe one of our Constitutional experts here is also an armchair economist. What economic law states that you can take $200 a month , put into an account and it instantly turns into $250,000 - $500,000 when you need to withdraw it???
People who don't protect themslves to the best of their abilities while doing activities that are both non-essential and more dangerous than average depend on the masses to bail them out when they crack their empty noggins.
Posted by: Trx440
I guess we are not. Because you can't even understand my position. In the future I'll keep all words to6 letters or less
I never mentioned the manufacturer, only the bottom of the socialist's barrel would sue the manufacturer.
Posted by: Trx440
Quote
Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
I don't rent my quads, so I guess I'm supposed to sue myself? BR>
DUH!
"DUH!" that's the most intelligent thing you've said yet. You're dumb like a stump.
Posted by: garyc660R
Quote
Originally posted by: Bubba297
Quote
Originally posted by: Fishez3WhoDatInDaMud,Here's the deal and I'm going to assume I'm not the only one that feels this way. Why is the ATV industry to blame? The media(People magazine and now CBS) are running stories with an obvious agenda. The stories are always the same, "Little Billy was just doing what he loved, riding his dad's (insert 700 lbs adult quad here) around the farm, around the track, around the neighborhood, or down the street. We had no idea something like this could ever happen. We would have never let him ride if we had known the outcome." Here is where you can help me. How is the ATV industry to blame? Rules and guidelines are already in place. The only person to blame for a tradgedy like the one above is the parents themselves! When a child is killed on an adult quad, the parent's should be prosecuted. When a child is hurt on any quad, while riding without proper protective gear, the parent's should be prosecuted.If my 13 year old decides to take my car for a joyride, has a wreck and is killed,,,should I(or others) blame Ford Motor Company?If my 13 year old unlocks my gun cabinet, takes out a shotgun and kills himself,,,should I(or others) blame Remington?If my 13 year old stabs somebody, should I(or others) blame Case or Buck knives?If my 10 year old is allowed to ride my 600 lbs. quad and is killed, should I(or others) blame Honda?The answers are not no, but h*ll no! It is very sad that in today's society, we are always looking to blame someone other than ourselves. As tragic as the accidents are that are being reported, it is even more tragic that the parents(and others) are trying to pass the buck for their own failed attempt at parenting. It's that simple, that cut and dry.With that being said, you stated that there have been disproportionate increases of ATV injuries in your state. Don't give us that goverment speak crap, give us real figures. 1. How many of those accidents were attributed to children riding adult quads? 2. How many were attributed to not wearing a helmet? 3. How many happened on public roads? If you take the above three out of the equation, do we have a story at all? I'd bet not.The bottom line is that the ATV industry is receiving an uncalled for black-eye from leftist media outlets and people who have failed at their jobs of parenting. Not some, but all the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of the people who allow their children to ride adult sized quads, without protective gear, and unsupervised. Additional federal regulations are not the answer. Hold the people responsible for these tragadies, the parents, and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. This entire debate should be about protecting our children. Additional federal laws CAN NOT do that! I agree with some of the CPSC guidelines, others I do not. Children shouldn't be limited to a certain "class" based upon age alone. All 13 year olds are not alike. Some have been riding quads all their lives, others are first timers. You can't treat them all the same, based strictly on age.In a perfect world, I'd like to see all ATV dealers have to conduct an on-site "drivers test". Scores would be issued for how they "fit" the quad, as well as driving ability. The total score would determine if they were better suited for a 50cc, 90cc, 150cc quad.I hope this post doesn't come across as cold-hearted. As a parent of two, I can't fathom losing one of my children. However, if one of the above scenarios occured, I'd look squarely in the mirror when looking for someone to blame.I for one appreciate your contributions here, although I don't agree with a lot of them.Fish
My exact feelings on the entire matter! I couldn't have said it better myself.
Good post. I agree 100%.
Gary
Posted by: garyc660R
Quote
Originally posted by: Trx440
Quote
Originally posted by: BobmanP.S. I don't wear a helmet....but I accept all responsibilities for any damages sustained to my empty noggin.
You fall off your quad, get your empty noggin smashed and go to the hospital where you ring up a $250,000 bill. You pay the portion that your insurance doesn't [under $10,000??]. Who pays the rest?? The Empty Noggin Fairy?? Everyone else does, that's who. You can't afford to ride without a helmet, so do US a favor and get a helmet or sign a waiver that states whenyou run out of money, pull the plug, since you take FULL responsibility for your empty headed actions.
A little harsh, but certainly true! Helmets should be wore by all atvers. Should they be mandatory? I think not....the government is already in my pocket, they can stay out of my business. The parents on the CBS special are clearly MORONS. A 10 year old should not have been at home unattended....let alone riding an atv. It's a recipe for disaster and the parents should be held responsible. Thats the problem with todays society.....whatever happens is someone elses fault. No-one wants too be accountable for their own actions.
Gary
Posted by: garyc660R
Dragginbutt....the industry is gonna do what is safe for themselves concerning recommended user ages and size of atv's.. If they make a provision for your child, it only opens up a loophole for the anti-atv crowd too have their way. No doubt exposes the manufacturer too more unwanted liability concerns as well. Whats a guy too do? Do what is best for your child. If that means veering away from manufacturers recommendations then so be it! They are only recommendations.......that are in place for the manufacturer to cover their rear.
On the flipside, I see kids all of the time riding atv's they obviously should not be on. No-matter what the laws are there is no one out on the trails too police them....and thats where 99% of the riders are. Govt and your local yahoos getting paid too do nothing can make all of the "feel good about themselves" rules and laws they want.........it's not gonna make a difference. The difference comes from the parents! If it were only these moron parents that we were thinning out and not the unknowing children I would be a lot happier about the situation. Thinning out the weak end of the gene pool is a good thing IMO.
Gary
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Its kind of a oxymoron to blame CBS. Is it not like blaming the weatherman for hail dents in your car?
(apologies to Brian Mills - plagerism is using one persons work - research is using the work of several)
Ever notice all the warning stickers and age limitations placed on ATV&39;s? That was part of the "Consent Decree" the ATV industry had to put in place to convince our government not to ban ATV&39;s when the injury and fatality numbers were compiled back in the 1980&39;s.
In their effort to protect consumers the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission) set the minimum age to operate an ATV at 6 years old. Six through eleven year olds may only operate an ATV of no more than 50 cc&39;s. Twelve through fifteen year olds may not operate an ATV in excess of 90 cc&39;s. Sixteen year olds may operate any size machines.
Because of the extraordinary increases in ATV sales and more significantly the disproportionate increases both in frequency and in severity of recent ATV injuries – our government is again looking at ways to protect consumers.
The CPSC has been conducting formal research into the current ATV accident reports. The top issues identified as being most likely responsible for the disproportionate increases of ATV injuries were 1) youthful operators (under age or inappropriate machine size ) 2) physical weight of the newer ATV&39;s and 3) speed or performance of today&39;s ATV machines.
Currently there are additional federal regulations being proposed and we may be on the preface of restricted ATV maximum engine size, restricted machine weight and a complete ban of non auto-licensed operators.
As a comparison - according to the Minnesota DNR - ATV&39;s are now equal in number to snowmobiles. Although the numbers of machines are similar – the number of injuries is 300% higher from ATV&39;s. Survey research of Minnesota hospitals demonstrated that the greatest numbers of ATV injuries are in the 11-15 year old age bracket. This is on par with the national estimates. The outstanding explanation is the distinctly smaller percentage of under 15 year olds operating snowmobiles unsupervised.
You can legally depart from the CPSC minimum age standards in some States with the completion of an ATV youth operator safety certification. Some States link the youth ATV certificate to that person&39;s future drivers license. Youthful ATV violations can delay getting a drivers license from 16 to 18 in some places and may affect the youth&39;s insurance rates.
Only when parents adhere to the established minimum age requirements for child operators will the focus come off of the sport as dangerous and inapproprietely placing children at risk. The attention to youthful and inexperienced riders for safety and responsible riding will only go away when the injury and property damage incidents are reduced and they move off of the public radar scope. The first step is for parents to start putting their kids on the right size quads.
Unfortunately. well-intended parents who depart from the minimum age guidelines – often for what seems at the time a good valid reason (because of the childs size as one example) – unwittingly become part of the problem when they have to take their child to the doctor for patching or repair.
If large numbers of kids were not getting injured - CBS wouldnt find the issue worth reporting.
For myself - I challenge the ATV manufactures to build a machine worthy in size and equipment to meet the needs of 12-15 year olds. Its not the engine size, as my daughters 90 has been to mountains forest and sloppy swamp. What she needed was the size of a Recon within the legal power of a 90cc.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Does anyone have a translator I can borrow?
I never blamed the ATV industry for anything. I challanged them to build a teen size quad that meets the legal limitations. (and I'm 225 and have ridden the 90 in places some of you wouldn't go)
No - the disporportionate injury rate is based on the number of accidents per number of ATV's nationally - not just in Minnesota. That is the CPSC agenda. If sales increase 50 percent one would expect a 50 percent increase in accidents. But this is not the case - its more like 100% increase. Thats whats drawing the CPSC's attention.
The example of Snowmobile to ATV accident rate was obtained from the Minnesota DNR made on KARE11 TV aired this last Sunday. It is only one if the examples that points to un-supervised use of motorsports equipment. Snowmobiles are not popular with smaller operators as it takes a good effort to horse one backwards or un-stick a stuck sled. Generally speaking, unaccompanied by a adult and under age 15 operators are rare. Therego the lower accident rates even with the same number of machines in use. Maybe a example that requres more explaining then what I should attempt here.
I think we agree on the parental responsibility but we may dissagree on quad size. But I beleive my posting is in line with the below statements from Russ Ehnes sighting the use of adult-sized quads being used by children.
The National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council (NOHVCC), met with the federal Consumer Products Safety Commission (CPSC) panel June 5 for a hearing investigating ATV safety issues.
NOHVCC Executive Director Russ Ehnes spoke at the hearing and reported, "What the commission saw was that the overwhelming majority ATV-related injury that occurs in this country is because the rider was breaking at least one of the major safety rules set forth by the manufacturers of the vehicles. We saw numerous statistics regarding riders not wearing a helmet, riding double, riding on paved roads with automobile traffic, and alcohol use. As far as children being hurt, it was found that it was almost entirely occurring with their use of adult-sized ATVs rather than the smaller machines built for youth-sized riders."
Prior to the hearing, the commission stated that it was "concerned about the dramatic increase in ATV-related injuries and the continued increase in ATV-related deaths,
Nationally, the Commission has reports of 5,239 people who died on ATV's during period between 1982 and 2002
The Consumer Federation of America and other groups petitioned the Commission in September 2002 to ban adult-size, four-wheel ATVs sold for the use of children under the age of 16.
In response to the numerious postings that encourage ATV's for youth that do not meet the age guidelines I have tried to provide factual information so that we hear all sides of the issue allowing for informed decisions to be made. There is always the exceptional performer that makes one want to consider a larger or faster machine - but do it legally. My youngest daughter flys better than most private pilots - but she has to wait to turn 16 for her first solo flight. I have no fatality reports of children dying from severe "want".
As a DNR ATV Safety Instructor my job is to test youth to see if they meet the knowledge, skill and ability requirements so that they can ride larger than 90 cc quads once they turn 12 years old. We try to get them started off right and safely. Telling anyone to dissregard the laws and requlations would make us hipocrates and undermine respect for what it is we are trying to accomplish - safe legal youth operation of ATV's that fit them.</FONT>
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Yes - As a DNR ATV Safety Instructor I work to ALLOW 12-15 year olds to legally ride larger than 90cc machines.
Minnesota has a youthful rider program that allows 12-15 year olds the oppertunity to ride larger then 90cc ATV's as long as they:
1) complete the computer based home study course
2) pass the written portion of a test
3) pass the demonstrated skills ability course, and
4) meet the physical requirements for proper "fit" to the machine they are riding. (note - not the machine they take the test on. you cant test on a 325 and then take-off on dads 700 if its not the right fit)
Its a good program but its not perfect. One of the students in our first class of 22 has already found himself wrapped around a tree and dead at 14. High speed and two riders on a hopped up quad will do that. This was the son of another ATV instructor. Go figure.
I to felt the pain of having a tall kid on a 90cc quad. It looked like a circus clown on a kiddie car. But.... after having seen the entrails of a child extruding from their nostrils because the handlebars of a 400cc machine were stuffed up their chest cavity - We decided to risk the possibility of minor injuries and the childs social genocide by riding a light weight machine vs. the possibilites as previously mentioned. A 13 she got a brand new Recon after completeing the youthful rider safety program..
You have to be 16 to fly an airplane
You have to be 16 to drive a car
You have to be 21 to drink
You have to be 28 to be President
You have to be 18 to smoke
You have to be 16 or get the safety certificate to ride over 90cc ATV's on public property. Here in Minnesota
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
What is obvious to me is the value state and national ATV and Off-Road organizations testimony has on law makers.
To participate in change I would recommend that :
1) Join and participate in both state and national organizations were you can drive a interest in the change
2) Build support for the change from Doctors, lawyers, professional associations, child safety organizations etc that would side with the proposed changes.
3) Lobby your state representatives for them to become aware of the need for change and demonstrate the support from the above efforts.
4) Be a GREAT example. Don't undermine your own project whil'st being subject to controversy. I have seen Bass fisherman loose hard to gain support in the legislature - becuase they got tagged for some violation during the process.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Terd -
Funny - but it seems like its the choir doing all the preaching - about how the rules and regulations, industry recommendations and laws are not fair because they or thier kid is to tall, to big or to fat for a 50 or 90cc quad.
My position has remained consistent in communicating what the rules are and I have attempted to articulate the information so that everyone is informed and impowered to make the best decision for themselves. The controversy seems to come from forum members who have choosen to go outside of these parameters and they feel the need to redeem themselves for the decisions already made - or, that by argueing with me - It will make some kind difference.
Yes, I do beleive that some parents put their under age children at risk on oversized quads, without proper supervison, safety equipment and training - for their own personal entertainment. But not everyone does.
Yes - after hearing parents ask if their 3 year old can ride the 90cc atv in the house - I have a problem with it. And if a forum member is asking what ATV is appropriete for a 4 year old - my response will remain as consistant as the other messages - go buy a puppy and tricycle.
I spend a great deal of time and many Saturdays working with 12-15 year old youths so they can legally operate larger than 90cc quads.
You might want to label it preaching - but some of us are actually doing something measurable to improve the sport for youth and family participation. Some of us are meeting with senators and congressmen, county and city officials, township board members and concerned citizens to advance the opertunity for youthful atv operation while most people are sitting in the pews whining about how they shouldnt have to conform to the few rules we have now, while we are on the preface of much more stringent regulation, restriction and possibly loss of non-auto-licensed operators.
So everyone please stand for the benediction -
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Spike -
Are you having some kind of mental block? I think we all agree on the safety issues and your much repeated wanting to know how to install lights on mini quads. But you cannot squash the issue because it makes you uncomfortable with the decisions you have made.
I think the matter of dissagreeing was made pretty clear with the first posts.
Anyone can recommend whatever quad they want for embryo to 100. I will continue to promote the legal and recommended age requirements. I will also continue to reply to questions, inquiries and statements made in regards to this topic.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Forget the laws - forget the certificates? Maybe we should smoke dope and drive the wrong way down the freeway. Hey - somebody will encourage that behavior too. It makes for good entertainment.
Approach control this is Boeing 747 228W - were going to do a loop before we land and come around the back side for a high speed pass..... the heck with rules - were having fun!
Its starting to sound like someones moron chip is off-line.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: spike99
WhoDatInDaMud, I get the feeling you are trying to stop kids under 14 without an ATV Certification from driving a mini. Specifically, kids who have NOT passed your strick course.
According to the National Institute of Mental Health - An estimated 1 in 5 adults—suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.
Lets do the math
This means that there are 44 million people who potentially are going to struggle with the logic and reasoning in established rules and regulations outside of their personal comfort area.
With a forum membership of over 47,000 persons this means that about 10,000 people who post here might struggle with understanding the rationality of any given post.
So far - there have been about a dozen persons who responded with repulsion to age restrictions, rules or laws regarding youthful ATV operators.
Again – the laws are made to establish a safety net for children when parents fail to either understand the risk or make appropriate decisions. We all know parents who have made both bad or good decisions in or out of the boundaries of what is "legal".
I work (and not just sit and post on the internet) to allow children 12 – 15 to ride larger than 90cc ATV&39;s legally. With proper training and demonstrated ability.
I know I&39;ve posted this same information on what we DO to ALLOW youthful riders a greater opportunity to ride larger quads – but some people just don&39;t get it.
So based on the math - I guess it could be worse.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
That stat comes from their website.
I did the same thing this AM. I thought about the cars cutting me off on the freeway, those running the red lights and the 90mph teen wearing a NASCAR hat - driving as if he was in a stock car race but speeding along in rusted out POS obviously lacking in shocks. I thought one out of five might be on the low side but it does help explain a lot of things.
One mistake is to think that all mental illness is violent - as in your post. The best explination I could get from people I know at the U of MN was that any condition that prevents a person from coming to a rational decision - is not healthy. So whats rational?
Some examples of not rational would be:
To be a ATV safety instructor and decide that I am above the law and not hold it in strict observance.
To undermine the integrity of the youth ATV safety law and program - by suggesting some are exempt from it - based on my personal opinion or on the insistance of their parent. (try telling the cop your daddy said it was ok to speed)
Not rational is expecting the police to let you ignore the law - but nail the other guy.
I was trying to think of other examples that might help people understand that my NOT holding the State law in strict observance would make any ATV instructor a hypocrite and subject to scrutiny - but the only example was not related to that - but rather in other examples of exceptance of law. I asked several today how they felt about fishing without a license. 100% declared they wouldnt even consider it for a single day - as the risk and penalty of getting caught was to high.
If it were up to me - I would choose to not have age regulations like this - but rather have a process of holding parents more responsible when they are stupid and make bad decisions that put their kids at risk of injury. Unfortunetly I think we are stuck with more like fishing license logic. The SPCA recommendations were grossly ignored so penalties to force compliance were implemented. I don't make the laws. I don't even enforce the laws. I just help 12-15 year olds get onto bigger than 90cc quads.
Your partially correct Spike - Some States are in the process of requiring EVERYONE to take and pass a ATV training course. In Minnesota it is being strongly recommended. There is legislation that has been proposed to limit ATV operation to only those with a drivers license and mandatory liability insurance may also be coming. In this State - Snowmobile liability insurance is already a requiirement - as a example.
My personal opinion is that there should be some kind of certification or license not unlike a motorcycle endorcement. Maybe we could catch that 1 out of 5 who can't comprehend why doing sod rooster tail circles across the baseball or football field is a bad idea. Long before I ever owned a ATV - my township had already passed a ordinance requireing anyone operating a ATV on public property to have a drivers license - or in the case of youth - to have a ATV safety certificate from the State and be accompainied by a parent. None of this matters to me as everyone in my house - adult or child - has the certificate after taking the tests and doing the studying. Nobody was hurt by it.
The lawyers are having a field day with ATV's. I have neighbors who have to report to court after recieving cease orders for operating ATV's on their own personal owned property. Observed and video taped by a neighbor - the charge is "dangerous operation of a motorized vehicle": The good news is that I will be providing expert testimony to the town board. The only thing dangerous is the neighbor video taping the neighbors. (1 in 5 again)
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
If someone has a better idea let them step up to the microphone.
I have written hundreds of State law makers. I've talked myself blue in the face at community events, State Fairs and political canididate meetings to spark someones interest in sponsoring a bill that would allow youthful riders to get their safety permit based on "fit" to the machine knowledge and skill - and not age. Zero response.
My brother is extremely active in DNR funding and fishing in Minnesota. He is on State professional boards and has been out fishing with George Bush Sr. Most of his time is spent attempting to make changes to State law. Its a tough road to go down.
Even if you do get a sub-committee to approve a bill written and sponsored by a law maker - some gaay-rights or marriage protection group will attach their agendas ammendment to it and the original intent of the bill is lost and never heard on the floor because of the political debate over the attachements.
What I do see is that the State keeps modifying the laws to allow bigger, heavier ATV's just about every year. They appear to be reacting not to the needs of the people - but rather adjusting to the machines being delivered to the public.
A good example of this is the new two-rider ATV's. 4 years ago there was nothing on the books for 2 rider quads.
If this is any kind of example - what we need to do is get manufactures to first build a larger 90cc with all the options and features mentioned here above and over time - do the same thing - just keep raising the engine size a little bit each year and have the laws adjust accordingly. Small steps rather then a large chunk to choke on.
my 2 cents
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
You say it like getting rid of 2 strokes would be a bad thing.....
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
It is a bad thing. Especially considering the technology exists to lower emmisions. Good article if you're interested:www.eindiancompanies.com/pdf/comeback.pdf
Looks a lot like its based on the old model airplane glow fuel motor technology to me.
If you could reduce the irritating noise, and the blue exhuast and smell - it would be better received. Two of the biggest complaints is ATV noise and smell. 2 strokes are the what is driving those issues and you cannot convince anyone in politics who has heard or smelled one - that it isn't a problem.
Posted by: bbertram
It would seem to me the manufacturers need to increase the physical size of smaller ATVs somewhat. Not a big quad but just a super sized mini with a little bit extra power but in the same motor. That way everyone is happy, bigger kids will not be to big for the quad anymore. There would be enough power to not get into trouble from not having enough power. The weight of the quad can be kept down very easy. The manufacturers should build these quads.
I tried to find 60 minutes last night but I couldn't see it on my dish, I'm going to look for it tonight too.
Posted by: binfordw
Quote
Originally posted by: Trx440
Quote
Originally posted by: Bobman
P.S. I don't wear a helmet....but I accept all responsibilities for any damages sustained to my empty noggin.
You fall off your quad, get your empty noggin smashed and go to the hospital where you ring up a $250,000 bill. You pay the portion that your insurance doesn't [under $10,000??]. Who pays the rest?? The Empty Noggin Fairy?? Everyone else does, that's who. You can't afford to ride without a helmet, so do US a favor and get a helmet or sign a waiver that states whenyou run out of money, pull the plug, since you take FULL responsibility for your empty headed actions.
Thats a bit harsh really. We'd all be paying YOUR bill if you get in a car wreck(you always wear your seatbelt?), lose an eye while weedeating, cut your leg while using a chainsaw- etc. Unless your the model of saftey in everything you do its not really fair to call him empty headed.
Stupid people- and there is a bunch of them, will always do something dumb and get hurt. You just cant protect against ignorance.
And, the whole, "I have to pay for it when you get hurt" stuff isnt worth arguing. I'll have to pay for your bills if you get cancer from smoking or drinking, its just part of paying taxes.
Posted by: binfordw
In a way defending him yeah. Hes an adult, he can make his own decisions about helmets. They arent required on motorcycles in some states, if you are a retard and crash you get hurt. Stop crying about other people and be glad you protect yourself, you should live a healthy life because of your choices. No need to force your opinions on someone else.
Posted by: binfordw
Thats unfortunate to hear about your friend. Sorry it happened to him, but like you said, it happens, Accidents happen everyday. People should be more capable of riding in the first place to avoid accidents. Helmets can't prevent them, just lessen the severity of the injury.
Posted by: binfordw
If you wear a helmet thats good. But alot of you guys are trying to force your choices on everybody. If I chose not to wear one, so be it. No amount of crying by anyone is going to make me decide to. What you do is YOUR choice, not anyone elses. Kids are different, they aren't adults and therefore need someone to make their decisions for them, I.E an adult.
Posted by: binfordw
Quote
Originally posted by: Glimp
I'm all for helmet laws and seatbelt laws for kids (simple enough protection for those who wouldnt think of it). Forcing an adult to do either is not right. Why? It's all about personal freedom. Do I wear my helmet all the time? Yes. Do I let my friends ride with me without a helmet? No. But should the goverment have the ability to take away any personal freedoms that don't hurt those around us? Heck No. That is the same path that leads to banning guns, ATV's, Motorcycles and eatting fatty foods. It could also be applied to cigerette smoking (alone outside or in a sealed box, preferably with a breathing tube or hole, vented to the outdoors of course), hanggliding, flying a homebuilt cardboard box of an airplane or driving to work every day. Would you want a world without all those things?
edit:fixed one of many spelling errors!
THATS my point. You guys can bash away and try to make me feel guilty all you want. I NEVER said helmets are dumb, dont wear them, etc. I just meant Its not the governments (or anyone elses) place to decide. What if they do- Then later just having helmets isnt good enough, soo they want to ban quads altogether???
Some of you are too quick to throw in the whole, "I'm gonna laugh when your in a wheelchair, poopin in a bag," kinda stuff, Its my right to protect my self as I see fit. NOT someone elses. If parents all had common sense to not let children ride unsupervised and undertrained- as well as under protected, we wouldnt be debating this topic in the first place. I am fully capable of deciding for myself and my kids what it takes to be safe, I dont need someone making my decisions for me.
And, yes, when my kids are old enough they will ride WITH gear, I dont even let my 6yr old outside by himself, let alone on a quad. So dont preach to me about How I need someone to make a law to keep me safe. When they turn 18 it'll be there choice to do as they wish, just like it is mine. By then I will be confident I did all I could as a parent to show them the proper way to ride responsibly, instead of sitting on my butt like many do and not actually "raising" their kids.
Posted by: Bubba297
Quote
Originally posted by: Fishez3
WhoDatInDaMud,
Here's the deal and I'm going to assume I'm not the only one that feels this way. Why is the ATV industry to blame? The media(People magazine and now CBS) are running stories with an obvious agenda. The stories are always the same, "Little Billy was just doing what he loved, riding his dad's (insert 700 lbs adult quad here) around the farm, around the track, around the neighborhood, or down the street. We had no idea something like this could ever happen. We would have never let him ride if we had known the outcome."
Here is where you can help me. How is the ATV industry to blame? Rules and guidelines are already in place. The only person to blame for a tradgedy like the one above is the parents themselves! When a child is killed on an adult quad, the parent's should be prosecuted. When a child is hurt on any quad, while riding without proper protective gear, the parent's should be prosecuted.
If my 13 year old decides to take my car for a joyride, has a wreck and is killed,,,should I(or others) blame Ford Motor Company?
If my 13 year old unlocks my gun cabinet, takes out a shotgun and kills himself,,,should I(or others) blame Remington?
If my 13 year old stabs somebody, should I(or others) blame Case or Buck knives?
If my 10 year old is allowed to ride my 600 lbs. quad and is killed, should I(or others) blame Honda?
The answers are not no, but h*ll no! It is very sad that in today's society, we are always looking to blame someone other than ourselves. As tragic as the accidents are that are being reported, it is even more tragic that the parents(and others) are trying to pass the buck for their own failed attempt at parenting. It's that simple, that cut and dry.
With that being said, you stated that there have been disproportionate increases of ATV injuries in your state. Don't give us that goverment speak crap, give us real figures.
1. How many of those accidents were attributed to children riding adult quads?
2. How many were attributed to not wearing a helmet?
3. How many happened on public roads?
If you take the above three out of the equation, do we have a story at all? I'd bet not.
The bottom line is that the ATV industry is receiving an uncalled for black-eye from leftist media outlets and people who have failed at their jobs of parenting. Not some, but all the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of the people who allow their children to ride adult sized quads, without protective gear, and unsupervised. Additional federal regulations are not the answer. Hold the people responsible for these tragadies, the parents, and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. This entire debate should be about protecting our children. Additional federal laws CAN NOT do that!
I agree with some of the CPSC guidelines, others I do not. Children shouldn't be limited to a certain "class" based upon age alone. All 13 year olds are not alike. Some have been riding quads all their lives, others are first timers. You can't treat them all the same, based strictly on age.
In a perfect world, I'd like to see all ATV dealers have to conduct an on-site "drivers test". Scores would be issued for how they "fit" the quad, as well as driving ability. The total score would determine if they were better suited for a 50cc, 90cc, 150cc quad.
I hope this post doesn't come across as cold-hearted. As a parent of two, I can't fathom losing one of my children. However, if one of the above scenarios occured, I'd look squarely in the mirror when looking for someone to blame.
I for one appreciate your contributions here, although I don't agree with a lot of them.
Fish
My exact feelings on the entire matter! I couldn't have said it better myself.
Posted by: terd
I just watched the segment.
I feel for the parents who lost their son who was 10yrs. old. From what I gathered out of that story is they let their son ride the "Family Quad" on their property with a neighbor. The quad he was riding was a 250. It clearly states that it should not be operated by anyone under the age of 16. To me the Parents are to blame...Sorry but that is the truth.
For some reason these parents are saying "They wish there was a law that stated he could not ride that machine" Were the manufacturers recommendations' not enough for them...That is B.S.
On the show tonight I got to see kids that could not have been more than 8 years old(Thats' pushing it) standing up on the seat riding a very large utility quad threw a river. Where the hell were the parents of that kid...they should be locked up. CBS need to show both sides of the spectrum and not focus on the morons that have no clue when it comes to responsible parenting. I am very responsible and supervise everything my kid does right down to wiping his butt. The majority of accidents that involve kids are they are riding a machine that is not age or size appropiate.
The parents on that show stated he was very good on this machine and could handle it well. So if their kid could drive and handle a go cart would they let him drive the familys SUV????? WAKE UP the machine was to big!!!! Had nothing to do with your kid it was YOU!!! Sorry but thats how I feel.
If I sound harsh it is because I am ticked off. It is sad that this little boy had to die for their stupidity. I am sorry for the out burst.
Posted by: terd
He was wearing a helmet. Thank god for that.
Posted by: terd
Quote
The Empty Noggin Fairy??
That is funny!!
on the serious side...You really gotta go get yourself a helmet. Not only for your own well being but to show the young kids that it is a must.
Please protect your empty "NOGGIN".
Posted by: terd
There is another segment tonight. They are supposed to show dealers selling oversized quads to parents for their younger kids and more stupid parents letting kids do even more stupid things.
This CBS show is a real kick in the balls to the sport!!!
CBS needs to interview and run a segment on the responsible parents that supervise and provide the proper training to ensure the kids safety.
Posted by: terd
This is more directed to "WHODAT".
I can understand and agree with some of what you are saying. What I can't understand is Your "Preaching to the Choir" Approach. We agree that some parents do stupid thing when it comes to their children and put them in danger by allowing them to ride machines that are just way to much for some adults to handle let alone a 6 yr. old.
The majority of the users on this from what I see are all about safety and supervision. I think that you would be doing more of a service if you would stop lecturing "the few" and find ways to help "the majority of us". I'd really like to see more URLs about "how to increase the safety on our minis" and "safe places where our kids could ride". With you being an ATV SAFETY instructor There has to be historical records that you could look into and share these with us. I think we are all on the same team here we just don't like the negative approach that you have taken with us as far as you being stuck on the theory "stick on a 3/4 year old on a 300+ quad" or your "mini as a baby sitting tool" focus.
Just my .02.
TY for reading, and to all the unamed that helped with this post...you know who you are. I thank you also!
Posted by: terd
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Forget the laws - forget the certificates? Maybe we should smoke dope and drive the wrong way down the freeway. Hey - somebody will encourage that behavior too. It makes for good entertainment.
More sound advice from the ATV instructor.BR>
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Its starting to sound like someones moron chip is off-line.
and as always, more wonderful words of encouragement.BR>
Why not offer up some real advice, that we might be able to use. BR>
TY,
Justinsmom
Posted by: terd
I dito what Raptor legs said.
Granted 4 yr old on a 300+ machine is crazy, but there is no way in hell I will put my 200+pd. 14yr old on a 90 because some A-hole made up some crazy guidelines. That would be like putting my kid on a death machine. It's that simple.
In no way will I let my kids ride something that they are not ready for...END OF STORY!!!
justinsmom
Posted by: terd
Someone had put up a link to some interesting news articles on atv crashes. From state to state I was reading about ATV accidents caused by driving on public roads, collisions with auto's, to many riders on 1 ATV, deaths related to the atv user was not wearing a helmet and Young children riding oversized quads. I got a chance to read of about 30 accidents within a 2 week period. I stopped on the 10 page...there was alot more to read.
Please where a helmet..I know the whole, it is a free country thing and I make my own choices and I will sign a waiver. Whatever!!!
Think of it this way...Your Parents, get a phone call that you are now dead resulting from an atv accident. Would you rather have them identify you by your dental records or how they remember seeing you when you left the house that morning???
Now put the shoe on the other foot..you get a phone call about your kid in accident, Would you rather have to identify him/her by their dental records or how you remember seeing them when you left the house that morning???
I know it is kind of gross to look at it that way...but those are realities for some and I hope I never am put in that position in this lifetime.
Just my .02
Posted by: terd
Foreget Him...you can go on forever with him about this and nothing will change.
Take the time you are wasting on him and go for ride with your kids. Explain to them that you new a guy who refused to wear his helmet and now he is in a coma, crapping in a colostomy bag,eating threw a tube, drooling like Niagra Falls and it was all because he did not want to wear a helmet.
I'm Sure they will be able to come up with the moral of the story all on their own.
J'smom
Posted by: terd
I get your point about about not wearing a helmet, doesn't mean I agree with you. You can make that choice for yourself and I am sure you must no the effects that can also come with not wearing one...So I am not gonna lecture you. Already tried that.
In our state helmets are mandatory on street bikes(never really checked into atv's)Seat belts are mandatory, you can be pulled over here for not wearing either one and Ticketed. So maybe if these laws didn't exsist here then we would have alot of head injurie cases. Who know's???
I just think slapping down more restrictions on ATV's is going to hurt everyone involved.
Posted by: Bing
When I was a kid,,,,,i was thrown of my 12' boat as it was going about 25mph. (my fault)
Gosh,,,I should have sued the manufacturer,,,,,darn unsafe boats!!!!
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yeah, and if you say something to them, they threaten your life.... You can't legislate stupid....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree with you part of the way.. but... I'd like to point out that the Raptor 80 is a kid sized machine... and according to the guidelines, my 9 year old, who is over 5 ft tall, and weighs in at over a hundred pounds can't ride it and meet their requirements. Heck, he is too big for it now...by the time he gets to 12, he will be larger than his 28 year old sister. A 50cc machine is just too underpowered to allow him to safely ride around on anything other than a flat surface. Put him on a trail with hills or in dunes etc, and he stands a good chance of getting in way over his head. At least with the 80, it has enough power to pull his weight.. but even it struggles in some situations.
The point that really frosted my cookies over this deal, is the safety council's refusal to allow him to attend the safety course.. and I am supposed to put him on a totally underpowered machine just to meet their requirements. That WOULD put him in a dangerous situation, and as a caring parent, I refuse to do that.
Conversly, I don't advocate letting him ride a full sized quad either... I don't feel he is mentally equiped to make the kind of decisions that come with the increased speed etc. He is just too young for it... All kids his age, regardless of size are TOO YOUNG for bigger machines.
What's a person to do?
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Here is where my BS meter starts sending out danger signals.... IF the reporters were able to find a dealer willing to sell the ATV knowingly that it will be ridden by someone under age according to the guidelines, I'd be real sceptical. Just try walking into your local dealer and tell him you want a raptor 660 for your 12 year old and watch his reaction... if they don't escort you to the door, you probably will be getting an ear full.
I don't think the majority will risk their livelyhood and dealership because of your desire to surprise "junior".. I'd think it was all staged for the camera and is there to illustrate the story.... Now if you are talking private sector sales.. then yeah... but a big cry of FOUL goes out to the network on that one....
I sure hope the dealer's associations are all over that one....
Clearly the media has an axe to grind... and like everything else I have come to expect from them, it is a bunch of horse hocky and glitter all wrapped up in a nice little bow...
The big deal with the idiots they found for their story is that they really missed the BAD PARENTING that was at fault, and not the ATV. So, you left the kid alone.. hmmm, child endangerment... You left the keys where they can get them... endangerment again... Lack of supervision while riding.. there they go again...."Duh, well it is the manufacturers fault for not warning me that they can be dangerous"
WELL DUHHH! Can't you read moron? Last time I looked, there was a sticker on the fender available for you to read.... Geesh, they should be sterilized so they don't create any more stupid off spring. I can't blame the kids.. they are going to do what kids do... the parents are the ones at fault...They got their 15 seconds of fame, and are soon forgotten.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I see a lot of safety instructors weighing in on this thread... what do you see the safety industry doing to address the situation like the one I have, where I have a 9 year old, 5 feet in height, over a hundred pounds and riding an 80 CC raptor 80 versus the 50 because teh 50 won't perform in a manner I find safe under conditions where hills or sand riding is inevitable... Is there hope that the guidelines that are being quoted all the time will be made more flexible to accomodate the outsized rider?
I can't support turning away a kid who really wants the safety training becasue of a catch 22 situation like this...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Well then, I guess what I am hearing is that in MN and other places, riders that are advanced or outsized for their age have options for getting permission to ride larger machines legally... and that is good news.... however that is only one half of the equation as far as I am concerned. I still have not see where anyone will address the safety association's refusal to even consider allowing an outsized child to take their course unless they fall within the guidelines for CC and age. This is a catch 22 I know.... The kids who need the course the most can't take it... and in reality, the 50cc Yamaha is the same chassis as the 80cc. The only reason I went with the 80 was that 1) the 50cc wasn't available when I purchased the 80, and 2) with his weight, he needs the extra power to ride on the hills in our back yard. Not everyone is blessed with level yards you know....and with his weight, the 50 is useless if you don't have a flat level surface.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
First off I would like to apolgise to those that may have misunderstood my remarks.. I think in reading everyone's comments, we can draw a few conclusions:
1) The guidelines developed in years past do not fit in all cases....
2) We all feel a need for parents to act responsibly and make better decisions... and take a more hands on approach to supervision and training.
3) Most of us agree that full sized machines are too big for anyone less than 16, however there are also some of us that indicate that they feel that something larger is required for kids that demonstrate the skills required, and ability to handle the machines.
4) A large percentage of us would support some formal certification process , perhaps targeted by age, for the 12 to 16 year old brackets. (Wisconsin has a model I like)
So what do we do with all this data? Stats point to injuries and deaths linked to size of the machines.. that may suggest to the manufacturers that a mid sized platform may be the answer we are seeking... Not just physical size, but engines as well. When considering a midsize dirt bike for MX use, a 125 is normally the next choice above the suped up 80's we see. Size wise, they are close to a 250, but not in power or weight. Maybe the 125 would be a good way to go, but target the 12 to 16 year old market... instead of limiting them to 90s. That would provide a reasonable next step without going into overkill mode. After all, the difference between a modified 80 and a stock race 125 is not a lot in the motor department....
Size of chassis is the other side of the coin that needs to be addressed. If you look at a stock blaster, it somewhat resembles what I envision. The wheelbase is shorter, and the whole machine is not anwhere near the size of a utility or top end sport model. I think that size parameter is near the mark....
I sure hope the big companies are out there listening... as they not only control the safety training, but they also are the ones that are capable of filling that missing link. Right now, there are no options available, and parents are forced to go to the larger machines as their children progress.
I'd also like to see something done about the tippiness issue. Yes this is a result of the ever increasing need for increased ground clearance, but I can't understand why some of the best minds in the industy can't come up with something that can help reduce this tendancy.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Who dat.. your propensity for quoting "LAWs" is misleading. What may be law in one state, may not be valid in another. I think a lot of people would appreciate it if you would preface your comments with "In Minnesota". A quick check of Wisconsin's interpretation shows many differences to MN. Also, in some states like Virginia, there is no "age limitation law" in effect, however many riding areas do try to be in line with the guidelines.
I have yet to have someone tell me the difference between putting my 8 year old on a Yamaha 50 and a Yamaha 80 with the throttle stop applied and having him keep it in first gear? The chassis are the same, and if I can kep the speed down to just about a good walking pace, and I have installed a tether system off of a personal watercraft so I can kill the motor.. what is gained?
I know you are passionate about kids and quads... we all are... but like belly buttons, we all have opinions too.. and who is to say which one is right?
I like Spike's idea about how to's for lights, better stability by making them a little wider etc. As a dad looking for options to make the adventure even more safe, I think it makes a world of sense, and I too think there is too much emphasis placed on cc/age by the safety council. If it is such an issue, why don't they lobby the manufacturers to provide them with a couple of 50cc machines to use for training purposes when they need them rather than turn a kid away, who really needs the training. You leave it up to the parent, and that may not be a good idea if they teach bad habits.
Also, I think the Manufaturers might find they might sell more machines that way... if I have my kid riding a yamaha provided free in the course, chances are I just might look at getting him a Yamaha.
Lastly, I advocate everyone, no matter how many years they have ridden..but especially those just starting out, take the safety course.. and I know I'll catch heck for this, but I think everyone should have to be certified PRIOR to riding one... independent of age. We make everyone take a hunter's safety course.. why not this? If combined with the free mini quads being provided for kids, I think you would have a lot of kids taking the course and the effect would be for parents to SEE if the kid is ready or not before they spend the money for the quad.
This would also give the dealers the option of suggesting this to parents prior to commitment to a major purchase. I don't know about you, but if this had been an option, I probably would not have relied on the purchase being based on emotion and my wanting the kid to learn... I'd have seen right away that my son may not have been ready or not....once you pays your money, many feel committed to making it work, even when the kid is not able to handle it..
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Not sure where you are raptorlegs, but in many areas of the country, just about theonly place you can ride is either public land or if supported by government funds, they have to follow the government mandarted guideline for that state. Out east there are few privately owned and supported areas open to the public.
I hate the idea just as much as you do concerning the license deal, but I am also realistic. It would provide a proactive versus reactive means to ensure everyone meets a certain level of competency....
I also agree with spike that making htem take a course before they make a purchase would have some drawbacks. I don't know what the answer is... my focus was on the under 12 crowd... I guess my idea wasn't fully thought through... but still it would have been nice to put him on something so I could have seen what his skill and fear level was going to be prior to spending that 2 grand. I also think that the manufacturers could help out in teh pee wee area with some basic 50 machines available to the guys like you to use for doing the teaching etc. I know in a few years I will have a mini with few miles on it that I would consider donating for just this reason... Or at least make it available to teh local dealer so he can have kids ride it around without depleating his stock... Heck, I'd even like to find out how to become a certified instructor and offer to do it myself... just handle kids on minis.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
It all comes down to a matter of responsibility...
Is it responsible for the safety counicil to turn an 8 year old with an 80 cc Mini machine away because he does not meet the guidelines?
Is it Irresponsible for putting him on an 80 because the 50's would not pull his weight up an incline safely?
I think the answer might be obvious in both questions. I don't advocate putting a child on a throttled Banshee ( I pray you were joking), but a slightly larger CC mini should not be such a big deal. What is a big deal is that he needs the course but can't take it because according to the guidelines, his parent acted irresponsibly. That has been my beef all along with this thread. Also, I don't see much difference if a child shows up with a 50 that has been modified to increase power to the point where he runs circles around the stock 80... technically, he is legal, mine is not.
No, I don't think my decision was irresponsible.... in fact I thought very long and hard about it before deciding to go with the 80, feeling that I would rather he make it to t the top of the hill, and not put himself at risk of sliding down backwards if he didn't.
Again, understand I do not advocate putting hm on a full sized quad of any size either. He isn't ready for it. I doubt any 8 year old really is...but there are a lot of 12 to 15 year olds that are.. and if they can demonstrate the ability to the satisfaction of a professional safety instructor and EARN a certificate of competency, then they should be allowed to ride one, as it shows a certain amount of acceptance of responsibility. the responibility here would be on the parent's decision as to how large a machine they feel he can handle.. again I don't advocate a raptor 660 or Banshee... but a blaster, or a 300 honda would be a very nice stepping stone.
Will they act out? Probably.. but with the proper instruction, they may at least think twice about it Plus, it would give local authorities a corrective action to take if they were to pull the certification for a couple of months and require attendence of a safety refresher again... It is quite the motivator to a 16 year old who loses his driver's license.. so it may have some merit here as well. To provide consistant application, this would require a national program.
Would I like it ... no.. I hate regulation and restrictive laws as much as the next guy.. but do I think it may make for a safer environment and sport? Yes I do!
And I think basic safety gear should be mandatory too... Helmets and eye protection should be mandatory. As well as boots over the ankle. No tennis shoes.... I'd recommend chest protectors, jerseys, mx pants, gloves, neck roll too... but not make them mandatory.
In any sport your kid plays, there will be mandatory gear... shoes, perhaps shin guards for soccer, helmets for baseball when batting, all the way up to some pretty heavy duty pads for football and hockey.. so you see, making it mandatory to wear a helmet and eye protection should not be too out of line.
The bottom line is that the world has changed since I was a kid. Although I would like my child to experience the same freedoms and care free experiences I had when I was a kid, the reality for many in the new urban society is that it just isn't going to happen any more...He has to grow up in a vastly different world than the one I did... one filled with rules and regulations of a modern society. Welcome to progress...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
All I can say is that if new laws come on the books, I hope that they don't single ATV riders out... which is happening right now. You don't see it for bicycles.. but significantly more injuries and deaths occur each year on them... you don't see it on mini bikes, dirt bikes etc. I see no limits on snowmobiles in many states, scooters, heck nowhere do you see such an outright attack other than maybe the personal watercraft industry.
Everyone here on this thread is passionate about what we are doing. Whodat, raptorlegs, spike and myself are probably more passionate about what we do and how we relate to our kids than the majority...we certainly are not shy about vocalizing our opinions... however I also think that if asked, most parents would probably feel the same way. All we want is for our kids to be allowed to ride their 4 wheeler in peace without the fear of Johnny law getting involved. That doesn't mean I am stupid, incapable of making rational decisions, or crazy... although I have been having problems with that metal plate in my head lately....
I just hate being singled out. Rather than fighting each other or trying to change each other's thought process (what, there is a process, Heck I just spurt things out), I think Spike hit it on the head, we need to work together and make our sport stronger, safer and highlight the family aspect. I mean after all that is what we are talking about.. quality family time.... and I could just as easily put my child in danger by taking him hiking in the woods where he could be attacked by a bear, mountain lion, snake etc, or he could get hurt taking a whitewater river ride etc... In fact, I took my daughter to boulder falls once when she was 4, and somehow she slipped and almost fell into the raging water. Thank God I was there and was within arms length of her long blond hair, or she would have been lost in seconds.
The bottom line is there is danger in everything we do. Now, how do we make the quads wider so they are not so tippy. And how do we lobby the manufacturers to put lights on ALL mini quads. These are safety issues that make a hell of a lot more sense for us to discuss than this ongoing littany. Time to move on...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Thats a toughie... I know like yourself, I'd never forgive myself if something were to happen and they get hurt or worse. You cant't always plan for accidents.. only do what you can to keep them from happening.... if that makes him stay off of it, then that is a decision I can live with. And sleep at night with. You may need to explain the decision to him.. and he may not like it, but an 8 year old can understand a great deal more than we give them credit for... Parents make mistakes too, and change their mind. In an effort to make our kids happy, we sometimes don't think things through as much as we should have... and just considering the size issue should give you reason to think twice.
I have a big kid for 8 years old... I know I will have issues with his size.. but he wont get to ride my Rubicon/warrior/raptor until he is old enough. He will have to keep riding his Raptor 80 for a long while.
Lastly Accidents happen. Kids at 8 are quick learners, and inqusitive.. however when it comes to judgement.. there are few that can make a good judgement quickly. And in an emergency , they have to be able to react without thinking. All it takes is a stuck throttle, or a unexpected rut that heads you straight for a tree, and they get over their heads. Add in panic, which makes them grab the bars tighter, which could also mean full throtle, and you could have a disaster on your hands. My 8 year old has the same problems. He has to think things through.. and does not have the ability to act on instinct yet. That ability comes with age and experience...
Which would you rather have? A disapointed child, or an injured one?
My only complaint with Whodat is when he quotes policy and law, that they don't always apply in all states, and that it may confuse someone.. He is as passionate about the subject as any one can be. And I am sure his experience has been much different than ours...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Well count yourself lucky that he has progressed to a certain point where he can demonstrate a minimum of skill level. Whodat is working to make it possible for kids that are capable of handling larger machines to ride them legally. I think that is a good thing and is needed everywhere. If for no other reason than for a parent to be able to show they did due dilligence in getting them teh training, and that the kid was able to demonstrate their abilities. It will go a long way to relieve some of the pressure from the parents.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I was introduced the other day to communications devices that my dealer had on his display. They are called a chatterbox, and basically clip on your helmet with an earpiece and microphone built in.. you get two of htem and you can talk directly to the kids while they are riding. You can either follow them and talk them through a situation, or stand on teh sidelines and talk to them as they ride. Price is about a hundred bucks a piece, and you need two if you want the helmet kind... they also have a hand held that works with the helmet type so you don't have to be wearing your helmet if you are not riding. They can get all the way up to almost $300 a piece for models that have a range of up to 5 miles.
I think they are neat additions to the safety gear that everyone should consider.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Binford dude, I fully support your constitutional right to die any way you feel like it. I served this great country of ours for 20 years defending those rights... so I am with you to a point. Where I have a problem, is that if you do kill yourself, you become one more number in the statistics that some person with a severe grudge against our sport will use in convincing congress and local authorities that we need to be saved from ourselves.
I can't imagine anyone on this list who hasn't either seen or known someone who was severely injured or killed on one of these things. They are not toys.. and we live and die by the decisions we make. You make a bad one, you pay for it... but you still have the right to choose either way.
But don't start waving the "I got my rights" or "mind your own business" flag around here, because it is our business to defend OUR rights to keep the sport we love and protect ourselves from the effect that your actions have on it. We lose riding areas every week because of persons with your attitude. All we ask in return is that you look at the deal from OUR point of view, instead of the closed minded, bull headed response you seem to be spouting. Sit down and shut up if you don't have anything constructive to say. We need your help, not for you to be part of the problem.
Certainly, you are in the minority with your opinions that helmets should not be worn. Sure, we like to "feel free" and like the wind blowing through our hair too... but there are limits to our senses, and you have crossed the line....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree glimp.. but the problem we face now is that we are way past the point of common sense with our legislators and the tree huggers... Like it or not, we are in a battle right now.. and within our own community, we have to police ourselves to prove that we are responsible.. because in their eyes, we are a bunch of miscreants and hooligans. Because they only see the bad stuff.. It isn't newsworth to print the benefits that the sport brings to communities. I can name area after area that was dead after the local industry panned out, and ATV riding saved them. Wallace Idaho, Paiute trail in Utah, Hatfield/McCoy and on and on... all these areas are showing tremendous gains because the dollars being spent for gas, food, hotels etc are investing dollars back into local economies.... But will CBS or any other national media pick up on that? Some local politicians are getting the word, but many are still listening to the tree huggers that have been greasing their palms for years.
The only way we can fight to survive is to go at his with one concerted voice, and not let them put all ATV riders into one category. I can't see how we as a group can stand up and complain about being mistreated when Joe idiot is out there tearing up the rose garden of some little old lady, or doing donuts at the local golf course etc. Even national ATV magazines recently had on it's cover a Rhino jumping at a golf course... I am sure they thought it was cute.. but it was plain dumb. We don't need it.
Hey, I don't like Uncle Sam coming down on me with bogus stuff any more than the next guy, but we have to learn which battles to fight and which ones to let go of. Helmets and safety gear are ones that we will never win.. we are stuck with them, so lets put our efforts to where it can do us the most good. Like pressing states and federal agencies to invest in riding areas, and force them to keep them open. The Blue ribbon coalition is doing just that! I recommend everyone support their efforts. (just last week, they won a major case that forces the gov to keep a large area open.)
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree with both of you.. but the reality as you put it, is that we are past that point with laws etc. They are there, and more are in the planning stages. Once a law is on the books, it is rarely taken off. Only modified and interpreted. I don't like my ability to choose or decide what is best for me and my family to be usurped by the government, but it has been. I don't like the fact that ATVs as a class of motorized recreation has become the most regulated and governed sport in existance... that is unfair... and we are trying to fight that tooth and nail... All I am saying is don't make it harder on those that are actively in the fight... Don't give the self rightous back to nature lobby and insurance industry any more ammunition. And especially do not give the media cause to report their one sided "News stories"....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Raptorlegs... Dude it isn't about teh tree huggers and their agenda's that are kicking our butts... it is the people out there blatently disregarding common sense and property rights of others. Cutting of fences, damaging of gates, tearing up of newly planted fields, doing wheelies down the road... getting th eloudest pipes on the planet... and the list goes on... When these things happen, we all suffer the consequences. But Ol' junior will still be out there tearing up someone elses stuff.
I don't know where to go any longer.. but I do know a couple of things that help. First, education is key. Let the authorities know that not all ATV riders are bad. 2) join a club.. yeah I know, more political BS to deal with, but clubs also can offer riding opportunities that you may not be able to take advantage of.. and they have more clout when they show up at the local county meetings to speak out on ATV related issues 3) be an ambassador for the sport... not a poster child for bad behavior.
Speaking about clubs taking on city hall... I just wonder if the locals were capable of pulling together a riding area close to home, with the help and policing of lcao club members.. .that they would find that by providing an area to ride, they get the streakers off the streets and out in an offical riding area away from granny Smith down the road.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
R-legs, talk about watching it happen for 20 years, heck man, I lived it... been there, done that... I do find it interesting that the stuff we are complaining about all happened when we were the young punks.. so this is nothing new.... with age comes wisdom I guess... My worst fear of becoming my parents has come true... and it is my generation that is taking actions to save the world from itself...
Someone said the media is to blame. well yeah I guess to a point... but if there were no bad stories to report, they would move on to something more interesting like terrorism in the lunch room or something. There is nothing like a kid with a gun in a school cafeteria threatening the cooks over bad food that gets people going in circles and thinking the sky is falling...
As for spelling and grammer errors.... well, the old dragginbutt has this problem with fat fingers, and they can't keep up with his thought processes, so I drop words every once in a while... and well, a spell checker would be great too.
I read stories from all over the country with the same themes. Most of them are second or third hand urban legend deals, rarely based on fact.. mostly hype and filled with stay-puffed marshmellow cream for effect. It must sell a lot of papers. I can also see that the average American will read this crap and form an opinion that is hard to break. I have recently had to have Knee surgery that was ultimately caused by an untimely crash on one of my machines. I had to deal with emergency room techs, surgeons, physical therapists, parents of kids going through the same stuff, other patients etc.... All had formed an pre-conceived opinion that ATV's were unsafe and should be banned... and they all looked me like I was some crazy old man who had been out in the sun too long. Heck even Mrs DB told me I should be acting my age... (but I managed to get her on one and now she is hooked). Anyway, my response haas always been sure ban them right after you ban boats, drinking, cars, bicycles, airplanes, motorcycles, guns, chainsaws, tractors etc. Just about all the aformentioned devices have been known to lead to deaths. The machines themselves are not to blame... then who or what is? I consider myself to be a more than competant rider, but the accident happened any way. The point is, people read garbage and will believe it without any personal knowledge before they will beleive you or me... because the stories support their pre-conceived notions of what "their" little world is supposed to be like.
You are right, I am not going to stop the punks.... and I am not going to change peoples perceptions... but I do know that cynicism will not work either... it has to start somewhere.... and education is key. I think when confronted with the facts, most people are reasonable and will listen to reason... But there are some closed minds that you couldn't open with can openner.
You say you think it is funny that some of us are willing to fight for what we see as an important issue. If not us, then who? It sure beats sitting around in front of a computer bitching that there are no places to ride when we could have done something about it. I suggest you read up on how the Hatfield/McCoy riding area in West by GOD Virginia got it's start...it took a lot of hard work, and the involvement of local and state politicians to pull it off. But now that it is open, the economic development that has occurred in the region has been remarkable. Same is true for the silver country trail system in ID, and the Paiute trail system in Utah etc.
It starts with one person with an idea, and it grows into something that even they can't imagine. I am sure they heard the voices of many cynics when they started out too...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Well then I guess I am glad to know that my experiences in these mattesr differ from yours. I am glad to know that there are a lot of dedicated people who stand up for the rights of others... even though their efforts are not appreciated or believed
I've seen organizations take on the Federal government (BLM) and win time and time again... I 've seen where the material used to close areas has been proven false in a court of law, and the ensuing reversal of decisions....
Do I believe the system works... most definitely! Do I agree with the decisions that are handed down... Not always. But I believe in the dedicated few that are in there fighting.
You can believe what you want... That is the great thing about this country of ours, you can state your opinion any time and place you want... It is not utopian... but we are working on it...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
We are losing because they are much more organized and we as enthusiasts take it laying down. When nobody speaks up to complain or challenge these groups, the authorities figure that it must be OK to get rid of something... I for one am not about to take it in the shorts without a fight. I may not get my way, but at least I didn't go down without making my point.
What we are finding is that the BLM is listening to these tree hugger orgainzations... and many times the data they present is either bogus, or so mis construed that even the BLM doesn't understand. Thanks to people like the Blue ribbon coalition, they take the time to investigate the data presented, and where appropriate, they challenge it in court... and they are winning. We are not winning them all that is for sure, but they are making a difference.
The number one reason that areas are being closed these days are due to irresponsible practices that either are a nuisence to others, injuries caused by negligence, and or damage the environement... All of which can be controlled by self policing, education and just plain common sense. But changing the attitudes of people is like pulling hens teeth... That doesn't mean we roll over either... We need everyone's help in this if ATV's are going to remain an option. If not, we will be relegated to riding in our back yards.
It is easy to be a cynic in this... but don't give in....
Posted by: DirtVH
The age size requirement is beyond stupid. Yesterday I had a 14 year old boy in my office who is 6'1" and 245 the kid has arms bigger than mine and is not fat. I don't care if you did have a bigger 90 cc machine it would not be able to motor him up any kind of hill. I am tired of people who want to roll over and give in everytime some stupid group get an agenda. This is a enviromentalist driven agenda, the tree huggers love it. We are an easy target because we don't ban together and work to get good info out. This plays well in the cities were relatively speaking the percentage of people who own ATV's is low. They don't atack the motorcycles because lots of city folk have street bikes and can still identify with the dirt bikes. We have all noticed that Bicycles are just as dangerious and get many more kids hurt than ATVs but we don't pull together and fight them using this info to good advantage. It will take organization and group effort becaue the media plays to the liberal left and endorses the Green agenda. It is really about trying to kill the activity and get people out of the forests because the granolas and enviro Nazis believe we shouldn't be there. If they don't slow or stop the activity now there will soon be too many and they will have to recognize our voting power. They see the growth and want it stopped before it endangers their green agenda. All the rest is just smoke to hide what they are really after. Just like the garbage used to get snowmobiles out of yellowstone. The agenda was get people out of the forest nothing more. Next they are going to try and limit how many people can go in the park during the day this has been done in some parks already. Then they try and limit the experience by making people go in in buses. That is not a fun family way to do things helps prevent people from passing the activity down to the next generation. You can see where it goes. Prevent the children from enjoying it when they are young and they won't be involved in it when they grow up. Long term plan to get rid of activity the same way they have worked at ending and limiting hunting. I really have no use for enviromentalist or the liberal media that caters to them and their beliefs.
Posted by: DirtVH
1 in 5 has a mental illness issue every year. That stat comes from people who depend on public funding for there living the higher the stat the more public funding. I know a lot of councilors and mental health proffessionals. These people will consider it a mental episode if you get mad at the neighbor over starting his mower at 6am, provided you are upset enough to grumble through your morning and still kind of pissed latter in the day that will qualify as a mental health episode. If you yell in your car and make the normal threats about I should kick that guys ass etc. That would qualify with those people as that you have anger issues. I never trust info from these people I have arrrested plenty of marrage councilors for domestic abuse. Most people who take up those fields do so trying to fix themselves first. Their info is worthless, ever watch a trial the defense finds a mental health person to claim one thing the prosecution finds one that believes different, the state order an evaluation by another proffessional and you get a third opinion. Quoting useless stats as a deffense sounds like democrats arguing why they should have a program to use my money to protect me from myself. Big goverment has never solved anything and never will.
Posted by: watzupdog
Just monday they changed the law for kids in vehicles again. It's now kids 6yrs old or less than 60 pounds have to ride in child safety car seats. Thats a big 6 yrs old, my seven year old only weighs 51. I wish someone would come up with size appropriate items for preteens.
Posted by: fastfredy
Until two years ago i felt the same as most of you on here. But then someone said something that hit me like a ton of bricks and i would like to share it with you guys. Two years ago my family and i were at a race, my sons race the 90 class and there was a awful accident in aother class and a young man lost his life. The next day their was a service held at the track for this young man, and in short the pastor talk about we all have a appointment and no matter were we are or what we are doing we will not miss that appointment. I am not a religious person by no means, but what he said that day made sense out of something that I could not make sense of myself.
Posted by: csamayfield55
Here we go again!!!
Trying to legislate comon sense!!! Instead of punnishing all people who allow there children to ride, why don't we hold parents responsible who have there children riding 500cc machines! To limit an 11 YO to a 50 cc is assinine!! come on now if we are not careful none of us will be riding!
The reason that CBS is airing this program is because it is CHIC to blame ATV's for all the worlds problems! If you really want to go after the child killer go after bycicles, 10 times the injuries, or maybe improperly restrained children in motor vehichles! Both of those have many, many more injuries and deaths than ATV's but you never hear about them limiting them!
Chris
Posted by: csamayfield55
Fishez3,
I have asked for the info on those 3 questions before, I have also looked for that info myself and guess what, IT DOESN'T EXIST!!! If they were to catagorize incidents with, who was wearing a helmet, if they were riding an apropriate size quad, and if they were being supervised! What you would end up with is the truth, that quads aren't the problem, it is parents that are the problem!!!
Maybe we should start legislating comon sense in parenting classes instead
Chris
Posted by: csamayfield55
I can't believe I am saying this but everything you just posted I agree with! One thing that struck me though, was the 5,239 of people who have died, and that was in 20 years!! Although any loss of life it tragic, that number compared to other things in TINY!
I also want to know, and I have not been able to find this info but what is the number of those without proper safety gear? Also, how many were adults and how many children?
Nobody has disagreed with you about safety issues or children riding adult quads, we just don't want to have our sport legislated away!
Maybe instead of banning children on quads we should have manditory helmet laws for quads,maybe chest protectors, gloves, and goggles should be required? That will not happen because it is not the agenda of the groups pushing these issues to make kids safer it is to BAN ALL OF THEM!!!!
Chris
Posted by: csamayfield55
Hey Raptorlegs
When I refered to kids riding adult sized machines I mean kids in the 5-12 year old range, I do not mean a 15 yo on a blaster! I have seen little kids out riding sportsmans with not a single parent around! My son knows better than to ever ride his quad without me around!! That is a real good way to loose it and he never wants that!
Chris
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Its kind of a oxymoron to blame CBS. Is it not like blaming the weatherman for hail dents in your car?...blah blah blah...As a comparison - according to the Minnesota DNR - ATV&39;s are now equal in number to snowmobiles. Although the numbers of machines are similar – the number of injuries is 300% higher from ATV&39;s. ...blah blah blah...For myself - I challenge the ATV manufactures to build a machine worthy in size and equipment to meet the needs of 12-15 year olds. Its not the engine size, as my daughters 90 has been to mountains forest and sloppy swamp. What she needed was the size of a Recon within the legal power of a 90cc.
All the news cares about is stirring up controversy. It sells. Goody goody feel good doesn't get ratings.
So it's the percentage of kids that get killed, not the total number that matters? Far more kids get killed riding bicycles. Let's ban those! It'll save more lives.
You would have a 15 year old legally jump from a 90cc to a what? Let's run out and buy him a Raptor! There needs to be growing room.
Sure, a 100cc quad that goes 25mph is too dangerous but an 80cc dirt bike that goes 60mph is OK?
A kid that starts out at 5 will be much more advanced by 12 then a newbie at 40 years of age.
And I've got news for you, it's just as dangerous to be underpowered as overpowered. You need to consider terrain. Mud and sand require more power but they are a heck of alot safer than your trails through the woods.
You want to see a decrease in fatalities, start fining parents for not supervising their kids.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Oh, he just took what I said and made it sound 100 times better!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: csamayfield55
Nobody has disagreed with you about safety issues or children riding adult quads, we just don't want to have our sport legislated away! Maybe instead of banning children on quads we should have manditory helmet laws for quads,maybe chest protectors, gloves, and goggles should be required?
I disagree. A teenager can handle an adult quad. Perfect size for a blaster.
All the laws and safety equipment in the world won't prevent chilldren from making bad decisions. Close supervision by a responsible adult is the only way to reduce accidents. No parent or guardian would let a child attempt something that the parent is not 100% sure they can handle. We love our kids too much to risk it. BUT, we can only stop them if we are present. Problem is that bad parents turn their kids loose and have no idea the risks they are taking.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
And I suppose their parents were beside them the whole time they were riding?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Spike, I agree with what you say 99% of the time and I really do value your opinion so I hope you don't take this wrong. BUT, the day they mandate a license for atvs is the day I trade mine in for dirt bikes. Which by the way, my state's department of public safety already tried to regulate and lost in court in because the judge decided the DPS had no jurisdiction on vehicles not made for public highway use. I've been wondering why nobody has tried to sue on behalf of the atvs. I also wonder if that's why they worded our current atv laws to apply to state owned land only.
Also, how would you regulate person to person sales of used atvs?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
OK Spike, make that 98% of the time! BR>
Dragginbutt, I am not in a heavily populated area. The highway patrol and occasional sheriff are the only ones that go anywhere near where I ride because it's about 25 miles from the nearest town. Desolate area to say the least. They leave us alone if we stay off the highway and don't mess with the oilfield equipment. If you add both sides of that highway, I'm guessing 4-5 square miles of sand dunes between fences. Not really a large area, but lots of fun. Seldom crowded and always unregulated. I'd like to keep it that way.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Yeah let's go marry the same sex and boot God out of our schools.
Must be OK since somebody passed a law.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
You have a holier-than-thou attitude and hide behind guidelines that were developed by people who would like to do away with our sport. Then, you wonder why we get our feathers ruffled. Who doesn't get it?
A lot of us have the capability to think for ourselves. You should try it sometime instead of shoving a bunch of BS recommendations down people's throat. Again, one size never has and never will fit all, regardless of age. I have never accepted punishing everbody because of a few people's bad decisions. And I never will. I thank my own state legislature for not listening to people like you. I cherish my freedoms. One of which is the right to disagree.
You think what you DO is so much more important than what we DO everyday to teach our children? I don't give my child a course for a couple of hours, make a judgement then turn her loose. I'm with her everytime she goes out. Who better to evaluate her? You? You and your course are bad jokes.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
I'm going to play the devil's advocate.
Seen too many hunters on utility quads that putt around at 5mph up and down roads made for cars that don't wear helmets. If you really want a good laugh then watch my dad ride my 400ex. Don't think he's ever had it out of 2nd gear.
Do I feel like these guys are endangering themselves? No.
Do I wear a helmet? Always. But I take a lot of risks too.
JMO
Posted by: Raptorlegs
I just think there are so many more important agendas out there than if an adult wears a helmet....
....for example, mandatory castration of men convicted of sexual assault might be a cause worth fighting for.
Just think we should pick our political battles a little more wisely. Both sides. You know? Injuries are only an excuse to get rid of atv's. It is not the root of the problem. The root is the environmental effect. Tree huggers want them to go away. They try to find as many excuses as they can for their cause. Truth is, they could give a rip what happens to you as long as the blue-speckled mosquito survives. But scare tactics gain support. Why try to meet anybody half way when it won't satisfy them?
To heck with it. I'm with Glimp.
You're going to eventually lose your rights on public land. Period.
But, they can't enforce these laws on private land. Period.
Informing people is good. Thinking you can change people's behavior is respectable. Thinking you can change it by unenforceable legislation is delusional.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Talking is fine. Lobbying is rediculous. There is a difference.
If you want to lobby go talk to your representative. At least talk to someone who gives a flip.
ps- I look at zoning laws when buying a house, but the people who want to paint their house pink have that very same freedom.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Let's pass the laws and try to enforce them.
I realize some cities would need more than one and some might not need one at all, but assuming there is an average of 1000 towns/cities per state at 1 officer per city making approximately $40,000 plus benefits/fringe and supplying that officer with an atv in lieu of a car would cost approximately $2.5 billion (2,500,000,000.00) dollars for the initial year and 2.3 billion plus cost of living increases thereafter. (salary, car, trailer and atv would be about $3.4 billion for the initial year).
You willing to pay for that? How effective would that be considering how much terrain they would have to cover?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Sorry Glimp.
I was poking fun at trx440's comment on taxpayers paying for cracked skulls and trying to enforce unenforceable laws, such as helmets for adults on atvs on private property. Saving money is not a good arguement.
Not to mention how much it costs taxpayers for the legislature to even consider a law to begin with. Why even attempt to pass a law if you do not the means to enforce it?
Personally, I would rather our law enforcement dollars be spent on real criminals. Forcing adults to wear helmets is kind of like cracking down on j-walking.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Bet they signed a hold harmless agreement.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: Trx440
I just want some of the "Don't tell me to wear a helmet" guys to admit they would sue if that happened to them or one of their family members. They would take handouts / social welfare / insurance payouts if they crashed and were injured without a helmet on. It's just another example of the give me, give me mentality.
In my old age, I wear a helmet. I just don't tell other adults that they have to for the sake of the masses.
Wrecked more times than I can count and I have never blamed the manufacturer. Most of those wrecks happened when I was young and did not wear a helmet. Lost a lot of skin between my cheek and ankle. Never sued. Never will.
Guess me and you must not be made from the same thread. I don't believe in free rides.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
I don't rent my quads, so I guess I'm supposed to sue myself? BR>
DUH!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: Trx440
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Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
I don't rent my quads, so I guess I'm supposed to sue myself? BR>
DUH!
You're dumb like a stump.
You're dumb as a stump, stubborn as a retarded democrat wanting a recount and as selfish as a welfare w-hore. Be willing to bet you're ugly and your momma dresses you funny too! You crack me up. LOL! BR>
Dragginbutt, maybe tearing up private property is a problem in your area but that's never been the focus around here. I hardly think cutting fences is the opposition's main reason to ban atvs. I guess those dirt bike riders are more responsible and curtious? Come on.
It all started with the tree-huggers and the media has fueled their fire. Lot's of parties have jumped on board. Surely you've been watching this progression for the last 20 years.
It cracks me up when one of you guys fighting for "the cause" invites the media out to do a goody-goody clip on atvs then can't understand why the say NO. Controversy sells. Goody-goody feel good does not. Your fighting a losing battle because as long as the opposing side has the media, ATViers are going to get screwed.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
uh oh, we're resorting to childish name calling. find a better way to slam your opponent.
raptorlegs,let's assume you're right and it's all about controlling the media. then wouldn't it make sense to try and win them over with goody-good-goo-goo-ga-ga stories promoting atvers in a positive way? then we could double it up by bashing the tree-huggers with some negative eco-terrorist stories to really swing the support in our favor.
you must be lucky to live in Utopia, because I thought every area has problems with atvers, or dirt bikers, that wreck things, like the way dragginbutt described. Where we ride regularly, it's gov't land, but the abuse is sickening.It's NOT ALL from atvers, but we'll all suffer the consequences of other people's actions. The biggest offenders are the a$$holes that come and dump their grow-ops or general garbage. then there are other areas covered in shotgun shells and bullet casings and various bullet ridden targets like old deep freezers, fridges, burnt out cars, etc... Too bad, cuz some granola-bar hikers will complain and the area will probably end up getting shut down.
Actually, I was trying to be overly sarcastic. You're right, it is childish. But funny.
Public land here too. I said it was environmental factors. I was disagreeing with the main push being from ranchers and farmers. Tresspassing and cut fences come from just as many illegal hunters on foot and people in 4x4's as atvs and motorcycles.
People have tried to get the media to back us. It does not work. Have you ever wondered why atvs were singled out from these dirt bikes and 4x4's? Trust me, tree-huggers are barking about those too but the media is not backing them. Why? Because someone pointed their finger at an atv and said it's dangerous. Boom! You have a story. You have ratings. You have media support and the opposition rides it's coattails.
We started compromising in the 80's. They took away our 3-wheelers anyway. I'm not compromising anymore. I'm not justifying what I love. I'm tired of watching my freedoms get flushed down the pot. They can pry my atv out of my cold dead fingers. Sorry if you disagree.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
You say you think it is funny that some of us are willing to fight for what we see as an important issue....
I said I think it's funny that some of you guys can't undstand why the media won't do "feel good" stories on atvs.
I said trying to pass unenforceable legislation (expecially directed at adults) is ridiculous.
I said trying to meet the opposition half-way is pointless.
I said I thought both sides should be focusing on more important issues. We've ended up defending ourselves to people we will never justify our sport to. And yes, I think they have the edge with their media support.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
I've seen organizations take on the Federal government (BLM) and win time and time again... I 've seen where the material used to close areas has been proven false in a court of law, and the ensuing reversal of decisions.......
Yet more land has been blocked off than opened, not to mention the registration requirements. Yet 3-wheelers are gone and here in the near future, 2-strokes are gone too. We're going downhill, my friend.
Only a matter of time. Enjoy it while you can.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
It is a bad thing. Especially considering the technology exists to lower emmisions.
Good article if you're interested:
www.eindiancompanies.com/pdf/comeback.pdf
Posted by: Raptorlegs
I wonder about price too Glimp. Don't know if it would be cost prohibitive or not.
From a racing point of view, it shouldn't matter. You get a lighter engine capable of more power. Don't know how that would translate into the real world though where most people seem to prefer the durability of a 4-stroke.
Sheez, just pricing gas trimmers has shivers going down my spine. Compare the cost of 2-strokes to 4-strokes. OUCH!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
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Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
changing the attitudes of people is like pulling hens teeth.......
I think that's why I've ended up like I am. It can get pretty frustrating.
BUT, I can respect your efforts Dragginbutt. I really can!
Posted by: MikeCer
anyone see the end of the 60 min about 20 min ago, CBS evening news is going to do a story on kids and ATV safety Thursday evening It didn't look good for ATV'ers. the short clip they showed looked like they had video's of kids around 10+ riding big utility atv's... looks like they were trying to build up an anti-atv public.
Posted by: Bluetickracing
I agree with Fish 100%. Just another thought. There trying to do the same with guns. Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE do. ATV's don't kill PEOPLE PEOPLE do! So don't blame ATV's. Blame the STUPID PARENTS!
Posted by: Bluetickracing
Talking about stupid parents,here is an example. We were at the races this past weekend. My 6 yr old was on the line on his Polini dirt bike. When this 5 yr old pulled up beside him on a New KTM Pro Sr. His parents were there with him. They all 3 were so excited is was his first race. The mom was taking pictures and she made the comment isn't he so cute. Well he was but. I looked the boy over and here is how he was dressed. Helmet, short sleeve shirt, little leather boots. That was it. I thought to myself what a bunch of dumb parents. They spent $3000 on a new bike and spend $100 to save his life!When my son gets on either his bikes or his quads,he has every pertection device there is on the market. Even if he is only practicing in the track in our field. Helmet,chest pertecter,neck brace,Kidney belt,Gloves Goggles,elbow pads,knee pads,Jearsey,riding pants,and race boots, Were talking over $650 worth of gear.So if were gonna let them ride or race we have to give them the gear to do it safely.Oh and by the way the first lap the little boy made he crashed.There he was being helped back to his parents, crying, holding his side and limping. I thought he's not so cute now is he.These are the kind of parents that get there children killed.
______________________________________________
"Don't ride faster then your Angel can fly"
"Keep it pinned to win"
The money I have invested in his bikes and quads seems like a $$$$$$$$$$$$$ bucks.
The money I have spent on race fees and maintenance seems like a $$$$$$$$$ bucks.
The smile on his face after he just smoked them all in a race, PRICELESS!
________________________________________________
#838-01 Polini x3 works-Michaels
#838-01 Husqvarna cr 50 jr-Michaels
#838 04 Arctic Cat 50-Michaels-Big Gun Exhust,Malossi reed cage,Malossi clutch kit, Malossi cdi,ProDesign tether,Rebel Gears,Acerbis hand guards,Modded Air box, rejetted,Twin Air filter,Douglas Alum wheels, Snow Hog tires,milled Head.
03 Suzuki lt-80-Michaels
04 Suzuki DR-Z 125L-mine
02 Yamaha Big Bear 400 4x4-mine
Posted by: spike99
Dragginbutt,
I agree. The same size glove doesn't fit all and hence "we the folks in the field" see the gaps. Instead of hoping "big companies are out there listening... " what can we do?
Any suggestions on how "we the poeople" can bring our mini-sport to a higher level. A level with less gaps and inturn, even more "safer" fun for our next generation of riders...
.
Posted by: spike99
Posted by: spike99
Posted by: spike99
Posted by: spike99
Posted by: spike99
Posted by: spike99
Posted by: spike99
KILLEREX,
Can your kid do wheelies too? In my younger days, I could only do wheelies on my motocross for a max of 200 ft. Too much drinking & smoking dope in my earleir days. With 2 back wheels, I'm sure your daugher can do wheelies for 400 feet. If kids know more then we were kids, I'm sure she could easily do 500+ ft wheelies. Let us know when she's mastered this...
.
Posted by: spike99
ok.... On a 4x4, in Reverse, wheelie on the front wheels, against traffic, in the dark with your lights off and, while on "cheap" drugs. The expensive drugs just don't do it anymore. With this combination, 200 feet is my max limit. I guess we all have our limits... Thanks for making me laugh. I needed that tonight!!!!
.
Posted by: spike99
Trx440,
I'm sorry. You are right. We pounded this subject over and over again. I'm sure it's making everyone "see sick". Actually, I was hoping we could hit the 1,000 read mark with this one. Now that would be a record breaker! Perhaps next time???
.
Posted by: spike99
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud<br
According to the National Institute of Mental Health - An estimated 1 in 5 adults—suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. Lets do the math. .
This is very interesting stats for sure (assuming they are true). This also explains why 1/5 of the folks at CBS did a biased story on mini quads. This explains why 1/5 people can't distinguish between "the law" (like it was their religions god) and common safety sence, and it also explains why some people have so much emotional problems after a child dies - from any accident or unforseen illness. If I do this math, it also explains that 1/5 of the ATV Instructors around the world have mental disorders as well. When you look at your class of students, sure hope you don't immediately judge 1/5 of them being `off their rockers` as well....
On the more serious side.... I read your post this morning and thought about it all day. One of the those, "let's try an experiment" things that came to mind. As I drove into work, I counted the cars that drove past me in the opposite direction, I walked down the street and assumded 1 out of every 5 people are nuts and when I ate lunch in a big place, I thought 1 out of 5 people are nuts too. Each of them could pull out a knife, drive into me head on with their car, pull out a gun or press their finger on their car bomb. The next time I meet 10 ATVers on my trails, I will immediately assume that 2 of them are nuts. They are going out to hurt themselves or others because they don't know any better. At the end of today, I fully realized how much of a "worry wart" and negative world you live in. One of a 5 of us are nuts, one out of 5 will hurt themselves and/or others and 1 out of 5 needs to be in a rubber room. You may want to let youself live in this world. Sure glad I don't see our world the same "negative way" you do.....
Based on your original reply of quoting laws in your specific state, it sounds like you would ban anyone from driving an ATV - unless they pass your certification exam.
.
Posted by: spike99
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Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
What is obvious to me is the value state and national ATV and Off-Road organizations testimony has on law makers.
To participate in change I would recommend that :
1) Join and participate in both state and national organizations were you can drive a interest in the change
2) Build support for the change from Doctors, lawyers, professional associations, child safety organizations etc that would side with the proposed changes.
3) Lobby your state representatives for them to become aware of the need for change and demonstrate the support from the above efforts.
4) Be a GREAT example. Don't undermine your own project whil'st being subject to controversy. I have seen Bass fisherman loose hard to gain support in the legislature - becuase they got tagged for some violation during the process.
I'm getting dizzy again!!!!
To get daytime running lights (which are mandatory on cars, snowmobiles & street motorcycles), mandatory skide plates, mandatory padded cross bars, mandatory dual brake controls, wider, lighter, less seat height, etc. on every mini, it appears we have to follow the above steps. I'm always willing to try and make things better. Got over 270 pictures in an online album to help others reduce their learning / development time. If I follow the above 3 steps, I'd be a grandfather before anything would change. Maybe, padded handle bars might get passed. It amazes me that laws to restrict our ATVs are passed with a short swipe of a pen, yet one has to lobby for 30 years to enforce the obvious safety upgrades. The obvious that safety of machine, driver and supervision is from "the trenchs upwards". Too bad some people on this earth feel its from the ivory tower downwards. Did someone once say something about "same sex law"??? Isn't that an Ivory Tower downward law too???
Something to think about!!!
.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
I think anybody needs to understand ATV's and what they can and can't do before they ride. Safety courses are a must. You just need to get familar with them. Parents shouldn't be out there buying there kids just any ATV if they themselves have never ridden and are not familar with them. These things can be dangerous for any age person. If parents don't understand what can happen if they put there kids on ATV's that are to big (physically and power wise), the results can be tragic. I'm sure we've all seem and herd stories. Those parents that let there kids ride ATV's that are obviously to big, should be held accountable for their actions, do not blame the manufacturers or anybody else. IT'S THERE RESPONSIBILITY.
My kids are 6, 7, and 9. I bought them a Suzuki LT80. It is a pretty small (physical size wise) ATV. Just about right for my 6 y/o and almost to small for my 9 y/o. Power wise, it is to big for my 6 and 7 y/o. The throttle limiter fixes that problem. They have no problem controlling that thing with the throttle turned down. I would be irresponsible to leave it turned up and hope they would figure it out. But I also wouldn't think about putting them on anything bigger, that would be irresponsible.
I guess the botom line is parents need to understand what can happen by placing there kids on ATV's that are to big for them. To do that, they need to be experienced riders and understand how to ride and what it takes to handle these machines. They also need to hold themselves accountable when something happens due to their actions, not anybody else. They can't say there are not enough warning label, they are all over..
Posted by: Bobman
I usually do not watch CBS as they are usually a little left of center for my tastes but that is a different story. I intentionally watched their program this evening because they had advertised a spot on ATV's and safety. Well I tuned in and watched their segment and I will say that it was quite balanced and represented concerns from both sides arguing the point, that being about children riding ATV's.
It was not the representation of ATV's in the media that irritated me but rather it was that of the attitude projected by a couple in Oregon who had a child that was killed while riding his ATV. The child was 10 years old and was riding an Arctic Cat that looked like a 400 if I were to guess. Not only was the child unsupervised, but the parents were not even at home. The parents first blamed the government because and I quote "If there had been a law against children under 16 riding these things our child would be alive today." They then went on to blame the dealer that sold them the machine saying "I can not believe he would sell us anything that would be that dangerous."
So the parents have blamed the government and the dealer. Hmmmm.....who else could be responsible for the set of circumstances that led to the death of their child? Could it be the parents who paid for the machine? Could it be the parents who routinely allowed the child to ride unsupervised (but he did have on a helmet)? Could it be the parents who were not even home when the child had the accident (we are talking about a 10 year old home alone regardless of ATV usage)? Then to close out the segment it shows the kid's tombstone and on the tombstone is a picture of an ATV. These parents knew the child rode the quad all the time yet they never thought to worry that he might be misusing the thing. The thing that annoyed me the most however was the fact that they blamed EVERYONE except themselves. I guess that is indicative of someone who is not responsible enough to monitor and control the acts of their child, apparently they feel that was the role of the goverment or the dealer or someone else.
Anyway to finally get to my point, tomorrow evening they are supposed to have a follow up segment with hidden cameras allegedlly showing dealers trying to talk parents into buying quads for their kids or somethign to that extent. I think it will be interesting to see. I am not a parent so I am really hesitant to cast aspersions on the way others raise their children. But even a semi-intelligent fatman from Del City would have the forsight to go so far as to remove the spark plug form my son's quad if I could not keep him from riding it without adult supervision.
Bob "Like ALL aspects of life, quad safety is matter of common sense and descretion" Bobman
P.S. I don't wear a helmet....but I accept all responsibilities for any damages sustained to my empty noggin.
Posted by: Fishez3
WhoDatInDaMud,
Here's the deal and I'm going to assume I'm not the only one that feels this way. Why is the ATV industry to blame? The media(People magazine and now CBS) are running stories with an obvious agenda. The stories are always the same, "Little Billy was just doing what he loved, riding his dad's (insert 700 lbs adult quad here) around the farm, around the track, around the neighborhood, or down the street. We had no idea something like this could ever happen. We would have never let him ride if we had known the outcome."
Here is where you can help me. How is the ATV industry to blame? Rules and guidelines are already in place. The only person to blame for a tradgedy like the one above is the parents themselves! When a child is killed on an adult quad, the parent's should be prosecuted. When a child is hurt on any quad, while riding without proper protective gear, the parent's should be prosecuted.
If my 13 year old decides to take my car for a joyride, has a wreck and is killed,,,should I(or others) blame Ford Motor Company?
If my 13 year old unlocks my gun cabinet, takes out a shotgun and kills himself,,,should I(or others) blame Remington?
If my 13 year old stabs somebody, should I(or others) blame Case or Buck knives?
If my 10 year old is allowed to ride my 600 lbs. quad and is killed, should I(or others) blame Honda?
The answers are not no, but h*ll no! It is very sad that in today's society, we are always looking to blame someone other than ourselves. As tragic as the accidents are that are being reported, it is even more tragic that the parents(and others) are trying to pass the buck for their own failed attempt at parenting. It's that simple, that cut and dry.
With that being said, you stated that there have been disproportionate increases of ATV injuries in your state. Don't give us that goverment speak crap, give us real figures.
1. How many of those accidents were attributed to children riding adult quads?
2. How many were attributed to not wearing a helmet?
3. How many happened on public roads?
If you take the above three out of the equation, do we have a story at all? I'd bet not.
The bottom line is that the ATV industry is receiving an uncalled for black-eye from leftist media outlets and people who have failed at their jobs of parenting. Not some, but all the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of the people who allow their children to ride adult sized quad
