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Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
3 suggestions.
1- Quit entertaining yourself by putting your young children at risk
2 -Buy a puppy
3 - wait 5 years for the motorized toys.
12 is about right for the average kid.
Some may disagree with me,
but they dont have to stand outside the emergency room with you.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Dark -
I have a small airplane that you might want to drive also. It does about 200 mph. Its small - so a 15 year old would fit. And there are just about the same amount of controls to operate. Why don't we let the you or even that 4 year old try that? After all - if the parent says its OK then why shouldnt we?
It is when parents don't make sound decisions that the government steps in and draws the lines for them. The 90cc limit may not seem perfect - but its the line that was drawn after so may parents failed to choose wisely. Its not a punishment - its what is believed to be appropriete. Good or bad - its the law.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Here its the law. Some states are simular - some are not.
See - http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/84/9256.html
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud- its the law.
If it's law then what section and what code?
Note these sections - where a adult who owns or has control over a adult size quad can be tagged for ALLOWING a person under 16 to operate it.
I quess thats why the Sherrif and CO's here will call the parents after stopping their kid and tell them to bring a trailer and thier checkbook.
Also note that you can loose your drivers license if found guilty of ATV violations.
In Minnesota anyways.
Subd. 3. <B> Prohibitions on person in lawful control.</B>
It is unlawful for any person who is in lawful control of an
all-terrain vehicle to permit it to be operated contrary to this
section.
Subd. 4. <B> Suspension.</B> When the judge of a juvenile
court, or its duly authorized agent, determines that a person,
while less than 18 years of age, has violated sections 84.92 to
84.929, or other state or local law or ordinance regulating the
operation of an all-terrain vehicle, the judge or duly
authorized agent shall immediately report the determination to
the commissioner and (1) may recommend the suspension of the
person's all-terrain vehicle safety certificate, or (2) may
recommend to the commissioner of public safety, the suspension
of the person's driver's license. The commissioner may suspend
the certificate without a hearing.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Rap -
My understanding is that the CPSC rules "were" law until they expired in 1990 something. They were then considered "common law" but didnt have the legal teeth any longer.
I think your right about it not currently being a enforceable Federal law any longer. But I also understand the most states have incorporated the CPSC rules into State statutes that are laws. I have been told that the original manufactures that signed the original consent agreement - still consider all the provisions mandated. Thats why you dont see Polaris or Honda building two rider ATV's but Arctic cat does - as Artic Cat never signed the consent agreement becuase they were not building ATV"s while it was effective.
I don't know a whole lot about other states. Just Minnesota.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Jason - Many many posts have been deleted from this thread. Sometimes when the light comes on we want to "take it back". Without those posts my replies may seem a little dissjointed as replies were made to questions or comments that no longer exist.
In regards to using common sense with a properly sized quad, safe - supervised operation and proper training and equipment - I agree! Great sport for kids and parents. My kids had ATV's when they were 10 years old. They had go-karts before that.
Somewhere it always seems to get lost. Our role as ATV safety instructors is to PROMOTE youthful operation through education and certification of demonstrated skill and knowledge.
Good luck with finding the right quad for your son.
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Based on what I read here I get the impression that some have never had a face to face conversation with their state senator or congressional representative. These are the people who introduce bills that become law. Lawyers - yes - mostly - but mostly because it takes a fairly good background in law to articulate new legislation that fits into existing law so that it isn't thrown out, over turned, inconsistent with existing laws, fairly applied, and reasonable. Most of the complaints about "unfair" law comes from bad law that allows judges to bend it into something different from what was intended.
I try to talk with law makers every chance I get and other than the ideological differences between republicans and democrats these people are about as normal and diverse as any others. Some are very well educated - some are not. Some have big money - some don't. I would think most people would want these people as friends or neighbors. There are much worse options I can assure you.
I never pass up the chance to impress the need for more legal riding areas as a solution to the illegal riding and how important ATV riding areas in or near the highly populated metro areas could be. I ask them to look closely at the solutions to the ATV issues and not focus on restrictions or banning. One solution being formulated is how to restrict aggressive tire tread in areas where the ditches and trails are being torn up and erosion is a problem. Rather then banning all ATV's county by county - a "approved" tread design might fix the problem. Again - its just in the initial stages of discussion - but it keeps everyone focused away from the "banned" word - which is progress. The advancement of our states laws to allow youthful riders to ride larger quads came from these kinds of solution discussions. I encourage everyone to participate by letting your support for positive ATV laws be heard.
I worked today to officiate 29 kids age 12-15 obtain their ATV safety certificates so they can ride larger than 90cc quads. One of the parents had a hissy fit over having to have valid registration on the quad they brought for the demonstrated skills riding portion of the testing. Imagine that - being ticked-off over having to have valid registration - how unfair!
I wonder if Abraham Lincoln knew how timeless his statement would be when he said "you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Quote
Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
"You have to remember WhoDat, dirt bikes, karts, lawn tractors and certain other ride on toys are not required to have a registration or safety course (at least in my state). Some people view that as unfair. I am one of them.I"
well... we are talking ATV's here and - if it wasn't state law, wasn't part of the pre-certification study guide and part ot the "things to bring with you" list for certification day - then I'd say you have a point.
I don't think this guy was paying attention. - therego the #1 problem
Posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Lets discuss supervision. What does that mean?
Constant second by second eye contact?
Ability to reach out and grab the child?
Direct verbal control?
Remote kill switch?
Generally, the only level of supervision we really have is mostly preventative supervision. The helmet is on, the throttle is limited to ability, the course is appropriate and the child is appropriate for the machine being used.. We can't run 30 feet and catch a kid tumbling a machine. We can't always yell loud enough to be heard through the helmet and over the engine noise. I've never seen a young person have the presence of mind to hit the kill switch when the throttle is jammed up their coat sleeve - no they just hang on for dear life until something changes - and thats usually a wall, fence, car, or flip.
We all get distracted - the cell phone rings, the wife brings a cold drink - we drop our keys or if we are also riding - we focus on any number of potential hazards and our thoughts wonder to many different issues. We hear it all the time - I just looked away - they were not looking - they didn't hear me - I just looked down - I heard something behind me. Our true involvement typically comes after the mishap as we run to the tipped over quad.
I know this as I've watched from behind my daughter catch a rock and flip the machine. I could see everything but there was no time to yell, nothing I could do but ride up to the scene of the accident and wipe the blood and dirt off the cuts and scrapes. Supervised? sure! able to do much about it? Not really. But this wasn't as tragic as many other "supervised" accidents becuase my daughter had the right gear and was on a machine that wouldn't go 50 mph and crush the life out of her when it rolled over her chest.
What is the real level of supervision we keep talking about? Could it mean monitoring to ensure that the preventive supervision exists and remains in place?
Unfortunately twice around the yard is about typical before dad goes back into the house or garage. Thats why prevention is the key element - because once underway - the child has only the safeguards or hazards that the parent provided.
Posted by: mxmike
It is defantly about the kids. I can say that my boy turned four 5 months ago and can out ride his 10 yr old sister. He started on a power wheels his 2nd b-day and got his e-ton 50 for his 3rd b-day.
His 50 is now a 70 that will smoke a stock 90 and we are going to trade her 90 for a 50 so maybe she will ride more. She did better on his 50 when it was stock.
He started to ride a two wheel pedal bike a few weeks after his 3rd b-day. She didnt take the training wheels off till she was 7.
Bottom line is different kids have different abilitys. Use you best judgement for YOUR kid.
Posted by: Bing
When I raise my future children,,,,,I plan to shelter them,,,,possibly even confine them until they are full grown adults.
This way they will never get hurt as children. j/k
Its all about education and respect for the machine and the sport.
A good parent will surely be able to tell when his/her child is ready for a powertoy.
This topic is so subjective.........every child is different,,,,and so is every parent.
As far as which one to get,,,,cant really help you there...havent really studied them all that much.
OK,,,,at least get one with a headlight,,,,i heard someone complaining about that somewhere.
Posted by: Bing
bump
Posted by: Bing
I wonder how many kids die each year on those little 2 stroke stand-up scooters that do about 40mph on a 6 inch tire?
I saw one crunched in the middle of the road a few weeks back. All I saw of the kid was a sneaker.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I started mine on a Raptor 80... he was 7... and he is a big boy for his age... All kids will be different. I thought he was ready for the 80 CC's, but after going out and scaring the crap out of himself, I am now wondering if I made the correct choice. How many 8 year olds do you know that have a quad of their own out in the garage and they let it gather dust. I have owned it for a year now and still haven't ran an entire tank of fuel through it.... and my wife and I had such great plans for ATV camping trips.. no sense pushing him.. he is scared... I just hope he can overcome his fear when he gets older.....
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree fully.. the really interresting thing about kids and injuries was stated in a recent magazine article I read about how dangerous ATV's were etc.. but they did make a comment that stats wise, there are more injuries and deaths each year for kids on bicycles than ATV's... and I imagine these little scooters you see every kid on adds to that count as well. The article, although very critical of the ATV industry, did admit that ATV injuries were only a very small fraction of what they were on Bikes.
And I think if parents make them wear the proper gear including helmets, goggles, boots, gloves and even a chest protector, AND supervised the kids until they were 15 or 16, the stats would go down even more.
I believe our friend in MN is a bit reactive... and if I am correct, I think he might be the same guy who is an ATV safety instructor. I am sure his experiences may have jaded his view a bit.. but you can't argue with what he is saying either. I believe he is genuinely concerned and wants parents to really think their decision through.
I have to admit that I have lived vicariously through my children many times. I get pleasure watching them do things I was unable to do when I was a kid growing up... and sometimes, like with ATV's I get to join them and be a kid again...at least for a while... until these old bones tell me I am not a kid any more and that I should act my age... and my wife yells at me for setting a bad example and calling me a crazy old coot.. (And just exaclty what is a coot anyway? I know I should feel offended, but ignorance is bliss I guess)
Heh heh, wait until the grand kids get old enough sweetie.. I'll show you what a bad example is really like...
It sure is hard to act dignified when you butt is hurting, and your knees don't want to work any more.... You know the walk I am talking about.... Find me a chairand get the oxygen... Quick!
Posted by: Dragginbutt
I agree with ISTOK...I think that just like in any sport, you will find that some kids that excell at learning the basics, while others take longer to figure out how to work the shifter, gas and brakes. My soon to be 9 year old is a thinker. You can see it in his riding, he has the mechanics down, but you can see him think his way through each step... which takes time....I hope that with practice, it becomes a natural deal that he no longer has to think his way through it, it will just happen. It is scary when he comes up to a corner or a steep downhill and you can see the gears working in his mind. I have to yell at him several times to brake brake brake before it registers with him that he needs to slow down... sometimes it is too late. The other times he forgets which way to lean... I try to teach him how to move his not so draggin butt around on the seat so he can use his weight to maintain his balance.. but he gets it wrong sometimes, and then it is two wheel city, mom passes out, and I am torn between watching him and catching her.... (gee, I guess I have to think my way through some things too... and I run out of time.. Ouch sorry dearie, what a nasty fall all in a lump) any way, so far he has managed to keep the tires on the ground, and only put his foot out one time... He is a thinker and very methodical in his approach to anything.
As for the gear shift deal. I have managed to get him to shift one time, and he never downshifted after that... all the rest of the time, he spends in first gear, and for now, that is enough for him and about all he can handle. I do wish the brakes were a bit easier to pull... but Yamaha has done a wonderful job in building a machine that stops on it's own if they don't get on the gas. So that has saved him on many occasions.
For those that think that kids should not ride, all I can say is try it and see. ATV riding is addictive, and one of the best forms of FAMILY interaction. Baseball, Soccer, Basketball etc, all for the most part are Spectator sports, where mom and dad get to watch their kids play... ATV riding on the other hand is one sport that a parent gets to participate right along side if they wish. and that is exactly where you should be at all times when they are young. Outside of fishing, I can't think of another "Sport" that lets you bond with your kids any more than you can on the back of an ATV. Even the act of washing the machine can be a quality time experience... It sure beats the heck out of our kids becoming couch potatoes like me....
Dragginbutt says cheers for now... and give your kids a hug today...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Now now.. lets be civilized... those of you that know me, know that I am an advocate for the family experience, and the joys of spending time WITH your kids, not watching them. ATV riding provides the adult/child interaction seldom found in today's competition centered environment. Like fishing, it gives you a chance to teach and enjoy something with your kids that doesn't have to use winning or losing as the yardstick to measure their success or failure.
That is something that I don't like about stick and ball sports, where winning is everything, and losing sucks. Just getting out of the house, off the couch and out in the netherworld we call "NATURE" can open many new and exciting ways to enjoy life. Sure there is some danger in it, there are dangers every day when you eat a meal. Think about this statistic, there are more people that die from choking on their food than those that die from ATV accidents. It sort of takes away the nay sayer's argument doesn't it?
Put the best equipment money can buy on your child, make them wear it religously, supervise their riding, get out there and ride beside them, show them that for once in their life, they are equals, and don't forget to sit back and smile once in a while as you watch them grow in confidence and skill. There will be bumps and bruises along the way... Hey, kids find ways to pinch fingers in doors too, so nothing is safe.
I know I'll catch heck for this, but I will caution that as a parent, you not get caught up in the competition deal until they are at a point where they need a different measure. For now, let them ride and enjoy the experience at their skill level. As they get seat time, they will get better, and need other measures. But starting out, just teach them to be safe and to enjoy it. Don't burdon them with the "I got to win, win, win" complex that is everywhere else.
As people that share a common experience of ATV riding, we are a special group that are extremely lucky that we can enjoy something that few get to do... The kids get enough pressure in life already... let them just be themselves and take time to smell the roses.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
First off I agree with you 100%... also it is nice for a change to find a young adult that can articulate a point without resorting to type-by-phonics you see all too often. I salute your teachers in school and your personal inititative to learn the correct way to communicate.
Now for the size versus age limits argument. For one thing, they are in most states nothing more than guidelines, they are not LAW, although most generally, a dealer will try to enforce them, if he wants to keep his dealership that is... the real problem is the manufacturers themselves. THEY are the money behind the rider safety courses being offered and the ones that dreamed up the guidelines in the first place. The whole reason they fund it in the first place is to appease our great and wonderful congress.
I think it is very obvious that there are issues with the criteria... and I sure wish people would take up the issue with their congressional leaders, because it will not change unless it is forced upon them. One person is not enough.. everyone must get involved.
I also would support a national safety course that all ATV riders must pass to gain certification prior to operating an ATV without having a certified rider along with them. Hopefully a parent or guardian.
I'd give kids under 12 a break, but once they reach that magic age, they should be required to pass a safety course. I do not however feel that a kid who is 9 years old, weighs a hundred pounds or more and stands over 5 ft tall should be denied the safety course because he has an 80 cc machine, and not a 50 like the standards call for.
I do not understand how they can deny the person that needs the course the most... I might just as well sell all of 4 of my quads and buy a boat, at least then my entire family can enjoy time together out fishing... All I have to do there is make sure they have a life preserver on...
My son can take a hunter's course and shoot a gun, but can't ride his 80... something wrong with the system folks...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Exactly Bing... the statistics are there for anyone to read that indicate that if a kid under 12 is riding a mini sized within the guidelines, he is much safer than kids on Bikes, scooters, inline skates etc... Where they get in trouble is when they are unsupervised, without a helmet, or riding machines too large for them.
This is assuming that parents also play their part, and SUPERVISE the little buggars when they ride. I would whole heartedly support local authorities busting the parents for neglect or child endangerment if the kid isn't supervised...
Unfortunately, we have what we have, and all the bellyaching isn't going to eliminate it.... until someone posts a legal challenge to the registration laws in each state. The only other option would be for a federally mandated program.... and I am not so sure that would be a bad idea...
I could support something if I knew that it would be enforced the same way all over the country...
I can also support a program like Minnesota's that allows a kid to demonstrate their ability to handle bigger machines than the guidelines allow.
And although I do not agree with some of the weird registration requirements, but I do support a temp license fee for out of state riders to cover costs involved with development and maintenence of trail systems... much like an out of state fishing license.
I could go as far as saying I'd support a national registration if the money collected was tied to building and Maintaining trails in each state...
I think consistency is all I really care for.. then I can attack it... but with the mess we have today, it is nearly impossible...
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Who dat.. in your characterization of supervision, you hit on many sore points about the whole deal.. and realistically, I don't know what is defensible or chargable.. In my mind, I would say that a parent in the general vicinity and who's focus is concentrated on the child's activity is What I would be aiming at... Certainly just being in the vicinity is better than nothing at all. There are steps that can be taken as well, like locking up the keys when parents are not around ... or putting locks on the machine and you hold the keys...etc.
I was wathing a woman who was with her child riding this past weekend. She was sitting in her lounge chair, aparently reading a book out in teh middle of a flat field while junior was riding around in circles. To me, because she was present, that was acceptable... certainly you have to give them credit for being there.
I have recently ordered a chatterbox setup to clip on to my son's and my helmets.. so I can talk to him at all times when riding. It won't give me the ability to reach out and pull the kill switch, but it will let me tell him to apply the brakes or slow down for a corner, pull over for an approaching rider etc. I recommend that everyone take a look at and consider using them when training or riding with your kids. They also have a hand held walkie talkie model for those times when you are just standing around doing some teaching without having to wear your helmet. You can spend big bucks and get ones with a stated range of up to 5 miles, or go cheap and get ones that only work up to 200 feet or so. They clip on, so you can take them from helmet to helmet if you have multiple pupils.
Posted by: Dragginbutt
Yeah I'll admit we have gotten off track... but I also would say that in your case, would I consider the exposure that your daughter has received as being normal? I think not. I think it would be hard to characterize what is the "norm"... certainly this coversa a broad spectrum of skills, experience etc. Much of what we are talking about here I think applies to the middle of the road family experience.
To summarize... I think there are prudent steps that parents can take to make the ATV experience at least as safe as any of the other organized sports available today. They include:
Purchasing and enforcing the wear of safety gear to include helmets, gloves, boots, eye protection, long sleeve shirts, long pants, and neck rolls.
Parental supervision and involvement in training programs is essential. Anything less should be considered criminal.
Proper sizing of machines to the child's size, age and abilities... allowing for stepping up as the child is able to demonstrate ability to operate and handle increased responsibility that comes with it.
Registration of ATV's is cofusing and some consider them to be discriminatory when compared to other forms of motorized recreation. Any funds collected in teh name of ATV registration should go to improving existing and building new riding areas, and not put in the general funds account of the states.
The current guidelines as published are not perfect, but represent an honest attempt to come up with a middle of the road starting point. When combined with programs that allow progression by demonstrated abilities, can serve as a good and honest program that can be enforced.
Current training courses are limited in their scope to rigid guidelines. Currently not flexible enough to allow instructors to deviate in areas of skills or away from guidelines. Thus limiting the audience and not reaching many of the younger riders who need the training the most. It is here that I at least feel the biggest changes and improvements could be made, but it has to start with the national safety organizations. Things change and require tweaking.. let's study it and make changes. Look at what some states are doing. (I like MN's program of certifying that a kid can handle a larger machine) Make the recommendations to the legislators to effect change... stop being the 200 pound gorilla and work with those that are trying to effect change.. and base your judgement on facts, not opinions...
Steps can be taken to make the kid sized machines safer.. Lights on all machines should be an industry standard. Kids machines do not require more ground clearance, they need wider stances to make them harder to tip onto two wheels or roll.
The ATV enthusiast, each and every one of them are important, and we need to speak with one voice....whether we agree with each other or not.
Posted by: Ragged
I think the reason WhoDatInTheMud's got his panties in a bit of a twist is cuz HIS kids are 10 or 11 and still not mature enough to ride.....
My kids started on a Polaris 90 at 7yrs...They rode go-carts at 5yrs ...They always ride with all there gear because thats the way they have to ride! Zak is 9 now and has been riding every where I go with my 500 and we look for the off trail steep and ruff stuff....he luvs it and I cant wait to get him a 4x4 quad that will have some more ground clearance.....But he needs about another 40lbs I think..LOL
Ragged
Posted by: drraptor
I am looking for a quad for my little girls. I have ages 7, 4, and 3. Looking for one the older ones can ride comfortably and won't outgrow too fast. We mainly ride at the dunes and put around the house. Is there still one called the xtreme machine? What is your advise? Thanks, Craig
Posted by: DirtVH
You know I think it all comes down to parenting. Since they don't have a test for parenting skills beside looking back and seeing how they turned out. I recomend common sense. Many a child under 12 can ride very well some better than many adults. On another forum I ranted about my anger at an adult who caused an accident while riding a motorcycle that injured my 13 year old daughter. But due to the proper equipment and good safety practices on her part the injury was not worse than she received for a slow speed crash on a stupid push scooter on the sidewalk outside my house. Make sure that any child put on a quad is supervised that they understand and can relate back to you the correct way to ride and handle different situations. I have ridden with an ATV safety instructor who has ridden with my daughter along too. I asked him about putting her in his class, he told I could if I wanted to but that she already did everything that he teaches correctly. So if you don't know for certain that the child is ready don't find out throught the sink or swim method. Get the opinion of someone who knows what they are talking about who can actually see what the child does. And never let them ride unsupervised they are still kids. Just as another point while my 7 year old rides I strictly limit were at and speeds while I observe his learning curve. It is taking him longer because he just wants to go fast so he is being held back until he learns the basic better first and I say he he is ready. He wants to ride trails and I won't allow it yet until he shows what he can do and how well he can follow instructions, and judgement on his part.
Posted by: Roach007
While reading this topic I became pretty upset at some of the points made, but then realized that they are just opinions.
As a parent I choose to buy my little girl a Raptor 50 at 3 years old, did I make a wrong decision, NO. Why do I think this way is because I don't want my kid sitting in the house all day playing stupid video games or watch T.V. all day long. When she ask me "Daddy let's go ride four-wheelers" it makes me happy as a dad to have her say that.
Maybe they should put age restrictions on everything. I remember as a little kid when i had one of those plastic Big Wheels, me and the friends would go to the top of the biggest hill and race down them usually wiping out and doing some serious damage to ourselves, but our parents weren't rushing to the lawyers the next day to sue the people who made them, they would patch us up and we would do it again.
These smaller ATV are no different then a bicycle, or anything else with wheels on them. As long as the parent has control over the machine there kid is on, that means throttle control, tether cords, kill cords attached to the kid. Remember at least 90% of the people that wrote the laws and had them passed probably never even set foot in the outdoor life and there kids were fed with a silver spoon.
Posted by: Roach007
The way I see it know this whole topic is going in circles.
My little girl has been on four-wheelers since she was 2 weeks old, she has watched daddy, mommy, uncles, and my friends ride and we all have taught her some pretty important things about 4-wheelers.
She rides with my mom on the back of the Harley and loves it, I think the more we expose our kids to this kind of enviroment the better they will be on future judgements
Posted by: Roach007
Like Adam Sandler once said
If our 3rd grade version of ourselves saw the way we acted now they would kick our butts all over the place, and put bubble gum in our hair.
Posted by: csamayfield55
A couple of KEY things I wanted to restate!
1. SUpervision, you need to be with these children when they ride
2. Training, they need to be taught the PROPER way to ride these
3. Equipment, there is never overkill when outfitting a child!!! Helmet, chest protector, neck roll, gloves goglesand proper clothing are all a must!!!
ATVing can and is a wonderful way to spend time with your kids but safety is always most important!! This does not meen limiting a child to a quad that is too small for him(her) you need to get the right fit! It also means not getting one too big as stated before.
Chris
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Bigger the better. Least a 100. 3 or 4 is plenty old.
Quads make great babysitters!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Sorry, I was just trying to get a rise out of Whodat!
OK, OK, OK! Civil? HMMmmm. Alright let's try this, I would put a 3 or 4 year old on a Fisher Price quad. The 7 year old can easily ride a 70cc or larger with proper supervision. A 50cc will NOT handle sand dunes without mods. But then again, I haven't talked too anyone yet that was real thrilled with a stock mini's performance in sand. I've got a 45lb kid on a 100 and it struggles. Sand robs power big time! So I guess I really did mean when I said the bigger the better. But let the little ones watch from a safe distance.
Better?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
- its the law.
If it's law then what section and what code?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Here its the law. Some states are simular - some are not.
See - <a href="http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/84/9256.html">http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/84/9256.html</A>
See, that's what I was wondering. It's not a federal law but simply guidelines established by the CPSC, right? I find where these guidelines were regurgitated by the Texas Department of Public Safety but I can't find where Texas has actually adopted any laws that coincide with these guidelines????
If anybody is interested, here's all I've been able to find for Texas:
§ 663.031. SAFETY CERTIFICATE REQUIRED. (a) A person
may not operate an all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] on public property unless
the person:
(1) holds a safety certificate issued under this
chapter or under the authority of another state;
(2) is taking a safety training course under the
direct supervision of a certified all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] safety
instructor; or
(3) is under the direct supervision of an adult who
holds a safety certificate issued under this chapter or under the
authority of another state.
(b) A person to whom a safety certificate required by
Subsection (a) has been issued shall:
(1) carry the certificate when the person operates an
all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] on public property; and
(2) display the certificate at the request of any law
enforcement officer.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
§ 663.032. OPERATION BY PERSON YOUNGER THAN 14. A
person younger than 14 years of age who is operating an all-terrain[0]
vehicle[0] must be accompanied by and be under the direct supervision
of:
(1) the person's parent or guardian; or
(2) an adult who is authorized by the person's parent
or guardian.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
§ 663.033. REQUIRED EQUIPMENT; DISPLAY OF
LIGHTS. (a) An all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] that is operated on public
property must be equipped with:
(1) a brake system maintained in good operating
condition;
(2) an adequate muffler system in good working
condition; and
(3) a United States Forest Service qualified spark
arrester.
(b) An all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] that is operated on public
property must display a lighted headlight and taillight:
(1) during the period from one-half hour after sunset
to one-half hour before sunrise; and
(2) at any time when visibility is reduced because of
insufficient light or atmospheric conditions.
(c) A person may not operate an all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] on
public property if:
(1) the vehicle[0] has an exhaust system that has been
modified with a cutout, bypass, or similar device; or
(2) the spark arrester has been removed or modified,
unless the vehicle[0] is being operated in a closed-course competition
event.
(d) The coordinator may exempt all-terrain[0] vehicles[0] that
are participating in certain competitive events from the
requirements of this section.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
§ 663.034. SAFETY APPAREL REQUIRED. A person may not
operate, ride, or be carried on an all-terrain[0] vehicle[0] on public
property unless the person wears:
(1) a safety helmet that complies with United States
Department of Transportation standards; and
(2) eye protection.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: LTZlightning
Quote
Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
Bigger the better. Least a 100. 3 or 4 is plenty old.
Quads make great babysitters!
wait 100 LBS or CC? never heard if a 100 lb. 3 or 4 year old!!!
Hey, just because your kids aren't healthy eaters....BR>
Read on.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Never knew that. Interesting!
Posted by: Raptorlegs
WhoDat!
Was I too hard on this person?
quad for 15 year old?
Posted by: Raptorlegs
PS- Should have changed my recommendation to an LT50.
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
One of the parents had a hissy fit over having to have valid registration on the quad they brought for the demonstrated skills riding portion of the testing. Imagine that - being ticked-off over having to have valid registration - how unfair!
You have to remember WhoDat, dirt bikes, karts, lawn tractors and certain other ride on toys are not required to have a registration or safety course (at least in my state). Some people view that as unfair. I am one of them.
I have already mentioned once that Texas tried to require dirt bikes to register and the AG ruled against it.
Opinion No: JC-0416 Re: Whether the Texas Department of Public Safety has authority to establish and administer a training and safety program for off-road dirt bikes
Excerpt:
"From a review of these statutes, it becomes clear that most provisions of Texas law define the term "motorcycle" in terms of "motor vehicle," which in turn is defined in terms of highway use. Although it is not inconceivable that an individual might attempt to operate a dirt bike on a public highway, such vehicle is not designed or intended for use in that manner. In determining that a forklift was not a "motor vehicle" for purposes of registration.....If a vehicle is simply every device which conceivably "may be" used to transport persons or property, in the sense of "might" be used, then a vast array of self-propelled devices having no relation to the public highways would be included in these statutes governing the public roads and highways.
S U M M A R Y
The Texas Department of Public Safety is not authorized to establish and administer operator training and safety programs for off-road dirt bikes.
Yours very truly,
JOHN CORNYN
Attorney General of Texas"
Posted by: Raptorlegs
Quote
Originally posted by: WhoDatInDaMud
Lets discuss supervision. What does that mean?
Constant second by second eye contact?
Ability to reach out and grab the child?
Direct verbal control?
Remote kill switch?
Generally, the only level of supervision we really have is mostly preventative supervision. The helmet is on, the throttle is limited to ability, the course is appropriate and the child is appropriate for the machine being used....... Our true involvement typically comes after the mishap as we run to the tipped over quad.
What is the real level of supervision we keep talking about? Could it mean monitoring to ensure that the preventive supervision exists and remains in place?
WhoDat, safety equipment and quad size are only half the equation. To be involved, you must monitor and test your child. You TEACH them how handle certain situations. You watch for detrimental behavior and you explain why they need to change it. You practice until they do it right.
If my kiddo doesn't get her butt off the seat on bumps, I stop her and try to correct her behavior. If I don't see her leaning into turns, I stop her and correct her behavior. I will not put her in a situation (rough terrain, high speed or whatever) where she might get hurt until I know she can and will handle it correctly. There must be constant evaluation. This is why I believe the parent needs to ride behind an unexperienced child at all times. Especially a young child.
EDIT: This is also the reason I question the effectiveness of your safety course. Whether 6 or 60, you cannot teach a person to ride in one day. The difference being that a 60 year old is less likely to take risks. I know I've said it before but even if your unexperienced kid is 15, you are crazy if you think you can turn him loose after a one day course.
Posted by: oldyeller
I agree with most of the reply's here on the dangers of letting young kids ride.Every child is different and you can't just brand them all the same.My son was 5 1/2 last year when we got the Viper 90.A 90 would be way too big for a child his age most people would say but he has always had electric powered riding toys to drive/ride from a very early age and so he understood the concept of steering and stopping starting and running into things.This gave him a huge head start over a kid that might not have any driving/riding experience at all.The new E-ton Viper series have an adjustable cdi box that limits the speed of the bikes in increments which sounds like a great idea.Its up to the parents to determine the abilities of your child though and take the necessary steps to keep the atv toned down to a level the child can handle. Very, very close supervision and safety equipment(riding gear) is a must.Most 12 year olds are way too big to ride most of the mini's in my opinion.
Posted by: spike99
If all minis were perfect, I'd focus on the following in any brand:
- Lots of suspension
- Daytime running lights (some have optional add-on)
- Foot brake (especially for very young drivers)
- Disc Brakes (especially in water rides)
- electric start
- CVT / Auto transmission
- 2 stroke (for lots of bottom end zip)
- 4 stroke if you are in a Red Tag state.
- Thick drive chain (especially in sand / deep water rides)
- Spring loaded chain tensioner
- Mechanical soundness
- Handle bar cross padding
- Loudness of its muffler system
- Historical reliability
Perhaps the E-Ton Viper, Kasea (with 3rd Party Nerf bars), Xtreme (with 3rd Party Nerft bars), Blast, Predator, etc. could be the first few units you start investigating???? For your general domestic type riding, many different brands will serve your immediate needs.
Engine size for your kids??? That's a debate that's been batted around many times in the past. You may want to surf previous postings for more info and come to your own CC size conclusion.
With any brand you do select, ensure its safe for your kids and you can obtain the necessary maintenance parts at afforedable prices. Many of us "pit crew" parents can't emphasize this enough for the first time owner....
PS. Very few complaints about the Xtreme brand on this forum. Well worth investigating in more detail.
Hope this helps in your first few steps down your long path of selection research & final purchase.
----------------
If wondering, my 8 year old drives safer on his quad then our 14 year old neighbour kid. Even his father aggrees with me. Like a puppy, train them young before their hormones kid in. After they get above 13, some kid's Driving Attitude can never be changed.
Something to think of...
.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
The thing is, there are ATV's that are plenty safe for youngsters out there. These smaller quads for the youngins are safer for them then riding bikes. Some can be toned down so they don't move fast at all. Not much chance to roll over. Whereas on a bike, the little guys are way more likely to fall of and hurt themselves. I have seen it many times, especially when they don't wear a helmet.
I think this forum is filled with good people, knowledgable people, safety conscious people, etc. With the occassional wako or loser. When somebody asks a question, they will get a wealth of responses to try to wade through. I think our job as member is to give our opinions and answers based on our experiences, both personal and observed. We need to be fair and honestly try to help others make the decision they are trying to make.
The bottom line is, it's not generally the ATV's fault kids get hurt. It's the parents that don't care, or don't know enough about the dangers. They buy their kids quads that are to big for them and their abilities, or they let them ride adult size quads. You don't see many kids get hurt when they are riding quads the appropriately sized for them, or the kids who have parents that take time to teach them to ride responsibly and safely.
I have an LT80 for all my kids. I like the LT80 because physically it is a small quad, easy for younger kids to ride. Yet is has the speed for the older ones to ride. All thanks to the throttle limiter. My kids are 6, 7, and 9. My kids wear the safety gear. I turn the throttle limiter down for the younger ones to the point they can't go fast enough to hurt themselves. But they can ride and learn the proper riding techniques. Turn it up for the older one, who is physically almost to big for this quad.
I'm to tired to write any more, I don't need to write a book.
Parents just need to be parents and put their kids safety first when either buying or letting the kids ride these machines. Common sense should rule, it's just unfortunate some people don't have much of that.
Posted by: Quad4Fun
Good point BING and ROACH. Very true
Posted by: confusedbuyer
Suzuki LT80 fits your description. Lots of them around, older ones should be available cheap. Fully automatic: no gears. Electric start.Can be controlled for speed. Doesn't have all the things that Spike99 lists, but a lot of the stuff he lists is only on 2000 or newer quads. Headlight? okay, if you're night riding. Horn? other riders won't hear it over their engines and through tight helmet.
I think the other guy was a little harsh in his assessment about emergency room, wait until 12 y/o, and get a pup. I think we underestimate kids abilities. It's YOUR responsibiltiy to supervise them properly. They learn lots of riding skills between 6-12. What if the cute little puppy turns out to have pit-bull lines (or not) and mauls your kid's face because he/she yanked it's sore paw?? Life is full of risks and some of them probably will eventually land our kids in emergency room, hopefully for something minor like a couple of stitches, which will teach just enough fear and respect for whatever caused it. Otherwise, you spend your life living in fear of everything and what MIGHT or COULD happen.
Posted by: confusedbuyer
hey Ragged, your picture is cool
cool; you musta been up here visiting one of us canuckleheads, riding the Canadian version of the atvimg src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
Posted by: confusedbuyer
sometimes it's the guy who posted, that later deletes it. Whodat has to have thick skin, cuz he routinely takes a thrashing. Just check out the thread that starts with "CBS..".
Posted by: rescuediver
Quote
Originally posted by: BALDMIKE
My 2 cents.........
You know your child and what there limitations are.
If you are a worry-wart about your child and think they are
not able to handle rifing a quad safely then keep them inthe yard
with a bucket of water ballons.
If you actually spend time with your children and teach them to respect
the machine and want to do some good family fun then buy the quad.
My son is 10 1/2 and rides a Raptor 80, he also is able to hop on my sled and ride it around
in 1st gear. I've seen a couple of glares when he was on my 660 and I just glare right back
with the finger waiving.
To each is own and opinions are like @ssholes.........
BALDMIKE, Your pretty much right on, especially about spending time with your kids. My kids have been riding about 8 years now, my youngest has 6 years under her belt and she is only 8(she started out on a Barbie Jeep). She respects the power quads have. I do not have a problem letting her ride our bigger quads. I have a picture of her on our LT160. She asks if she can ride it and what gear i want her to ride it in? She respects what she has and knows her riding ability as I do. She is under constant supervision. I love watching my girls ride. I guess I'm a proud dad watching them progress.
To many adults want to jump the learning process. They don't want to buy a quad that is "to small" only to sell it in a year or two.
Posted by: rescuediver
Glimp, I hear what you are saying about family. When I get tired of them, I just leaveBR>
BALDMIKE, You are correct about the video/tv babysitters
Posted by: WILDCARDSHOOTER
my self and doc searched long and hard for starter quads in the 90 to 110 cc range and setteled on the sundiro 90cc by madami sunray which is a devision of nusun which is a partner of honda . they are tough as nails with good suspenion ,brakes ,2 stroke , padded handle bar cross over , cvt , 19" tires , awsome ground clearence, very stable . parts are easey to get as the parts are interchangeable with polaris ,bombardier , kasea, dinali,and e ton . the price is great as they list for aprox. $1700.00us but we hagled them down to $1200.00us each . if you are looking for a name brand i have a awsome deal on a predator 50cc polaris with aprox. 15 hours in mint condition for 1900.00us pm me if you are interested . the sundiro has been bullet proof and road hard every weekend 20 to 30 miles at each trip on some tough trails in the ozark mountains ..
Posted by: TonyV
you may want to look into a\the new viper 90r. reverse is always a good thing
Posted by: brodykelly
suzuki LT80, bullet proof, when kept stock, my kids started riding it at 4 and 6, using the throttle limiters of course, bought a new one for 2100 out the door
Posted by: LTZlightning
Quote
Originally posted by: Raptorlegs
Bigger the better. Least a 100. 3 or 4 is plenty old.
Quads make great babysitters!
wait 100 LBS or CC? never heard if a 100 lb. 3 or 4 year old!!!
Posted by: BALDMIKE
My 2 cents.........
You know your child and what there limitations are.
If you are a worry-wart about your child and think they are
not able to handle rifing a quad safely then keep them inthe yard
with a bucket of water ballons.
If you actually spend time with your children and teach them to respect
the machine and want to do some good family fun then buy the quad.
My son is 10 1/2 and rides a Raptor 80, he also is able to hop on my sled and ride it around
in 1st gear. I've seen a couple of glares when he was on my 660 and I just glare right back
with the finger waiving.
To each is own and opinions are like @ssholes.........
Posted by: BALDMIKE
My Philosophy is "put the fear of Dad" in them !
If you're kids don't respect you, what in the hell are you thinking
by buying them a quad.
If my son gets less than a "B" on his report card there is no riding for him
until the next semester when grades improve. (trust me it works)
I see a lot of so called parants raising kids, and they do a sh@t job at it
and thats why we have kids on drugs and gangs and total disrespect in school.
Posted by: BALDMIKE
rescuediver exactly !
Parants these days, I'd say about 60-70% don't know how to raise a child.
Away from my kid I am smokin my medicine and having a good time.
But when my kid is around I am the portrait of a true Father.
I don't drink or smoke anywhere around him and teach him the finer things in life.
It's all about how you raise your kids, spend quality time with them and it pays off,
put your children in front of tv's with video games to babysit them and see them turn to sh@t !
Posted by: Istok
If your girls were a little bit bigger I would recommend the Honda 90. I purchased one for my son about a year ago and it can haul me up and down most of the dirt roads around here (I'm 190 lbs).
Because your girls are a bit younger than what I would consider ideal for a Honda 90, I would recommend getting something with an automatic transmission. I've got a 7-year-old son who's had a hard time learning the concept of shifting (how to control the gas, letting off the gas while shifting, keeping track of what gear he's in, down shifting to climb hills/go around tight corners, etc.), not to mention the physical difficulty of using the foot shifter... it does require a certain amount of foot strength in order to shift and your girls might have to grow a bit before they have the physical ability to use a shifter.
As far as your 4 and 3 year old go, it might be wise to let them mature a little before sending them off on their own down a trail or dune. I think sometimes adults forget that most younger kids haven't mentally developed sufficently to employ effective reasoning skills/common sense/good judgement necessary to ride an atv safely (neither have many adults!). A lot of kids think they're invincible and attempt to climb hills that they probably shouldn't... and try to take corners faster than they should. My kid was in for a real surprise yesterday when he tried to climb a semi-steep hill and only made it 3/4 the way up before he ran out of power. It was a long, painful, fast, backwards decent for him.
Good luck with your decision.
Posted by: DarkFireDragon
All this stuff about saftey and how old is old enough? really is anything safe I mean just walking isn't so safe. about a 2-3 years ago I was walking down to my mailbox when my foot went into like a mole tunnel (or something like that, and no it wasn't from stupidity you just couldn't see it) and I tore the muscle and broke the bone I was 12. when my older sister was about 13-14 she was skating and fell. It broke her pinky finger (she needed 9 stitches for the cause it sliced the finger open) and her wrist in three different places.and when my younger sister was about 6 or 7 she fell down some steps in a bowling alley ( only about two or three steps not many) that didn't hurt her what hurt her was the bowling ball she wacked her head off of at the bottom of the stairs she needed 14 stitches in her jaw. so with this n mind can we honestly say anything is safe. I mean what can kids not skate they do have skating accident do they not. will children not be allowed in bowling alleys.
I'm 15 and have had my ATV for 4 months (not one accident not even a close call thank god) now the ATV recomended for my age (12 or older) is 90cc or less. I'm 5'11" almost 6' my shoe size is a men's 13 1/2 wide and sometimes 14 wide ( depends on the company making it) now how in the world do they plan on me fitting on a 90cc the seat doesn't even come a full 3 ft off of the ground.
so what I'm saying is that you have to take mentality and size into factor before you go out and buy one. A 3yr. old might be a bit uncomprehensible to the dangers of riding an ATV. Now I'm not saying she is dumb; all three year olds are gonnna be like that. but as for the 4 and 7 year old I would look into a small quad for the 7 yr old and maybe a 50cc-90cc for the 4 yr old.
Now don't get me wrong I have nothing wrong with (for lack of a better term) underage riding; hell I'm an underaged rider myself (only a year but still underaged)you just have to think very carefully about what you want for your kids
Posted by: metalneck
i started out at three years old and was on a hond 90 .i would buy them an e-ton mostly because they have a remote shutoff switch there automatic some of them anyways and there electric start and resonably cheep
Posted by: JasonWilliams
I am currently looking for a small quad for my son, and happened to find this post. I have been lurking on this and other forums daily for a good six months now, and have gained considerable knowledge by doing so. I have read some REALLY good posts, and then again I have read some REALLY bad ones. None were bad enough, until now, to tempt me to register and reply to a post. I found "WhoDatInDaMud" 's posts so idiotic, I couldn't stand by any longer.
First off, "WhoDatInDaMud", I applaud you for voicing your opinion on the very first reply. You clearly stated your opinion, even if it was in a bashing way. Then, I get to your "small airplane" post. OMG, that was the lamest comparison I think I have ever seen. What does a 200mph airplane have to do with anything??? Are you comparing a very small governed quad to a 200mph airplane? If so, WHY? Then you continue ON and ON and ON, stating that it's the law. You should have left it alone with your first reply, because you really start showing your ignorance. I see how you are really proud to be a "MN DNR ATV Safety Instructor", and have made yourself believe that you are "MN DNR ATV Safety GOD", but you are obviously no lawyer and should not quote the law as if you were. The laws that you quoted are for PUBLIC roads and PUBLIC lands. I am not from MN, but in my state, you cannot ride on ANY public roads or most public lands, even if you are a 65yr old DNR ATV Safety God.
I stated my opinion on the subject HERE and do not wish to start the debate again. I thank you "WhoDatInDaMud" for supplying a post so ignorant that finally pressed me to register.
Jason
04 Prairie 700 stock
Posted by: JasonWilliams
WhoDatInTheMud,
You're not too bad after all! If I quoted you out of context, I apologize. I was not aware the moderator removes posts here.
HAGO
Jason
Posted by: JTACSupply
Quote
Originally posted by: Roach007
Snip.... Remember at least 90% of the people that wrote the laws and had them passed probably never even set foot in the outdoor life and there kids were fed with a silver spoon.
Good point, but lets remember also that laws are passed by lawyers who want to make money, plain and simple. Hope I don't step on any toes with that remark but it's true. Yes, kids have been hurt on ATV's. However, I was riding 3 wheelers (ATC110) when I was 7 and have moved on through dirt bikes, 4 wheelers, street bikes, etc. Never have I had a serious accident, nor have any of the other kids I rode with. As said above, it's maturity level and attitude. Nothing wrong with buying your kids quads and supervising them, and yes it's alot better than watching the boob tube. When the government steps in and starts regulating things, something is wrong folks! By the way, about the airplane post....I've seen more than 1 under 16 y/o pilot...
Posted by: Glimp
I think there are so many problems that to sum it up in one post is dificult.
Example.
Alot of kids (and it seems like more and more) have very little respect for parental authority. I think this comes from a combination of parents who don't spend enough time with them and telivision which likes to portray parents as loving morons. This is a huge problem because if your children don't respsect you they won't listen to you. I've watched parents go out and buy a their kids a small quad with all the proper gear, supervise their kids and try to tell them how to ride. The kids stare off into space waiting for their parents to shut up so they can push the button.
We need to focus on teaching alot of parents how to parent first, before they have much of a chance teaching their kids anything.
Posted by: Glimp
I agree with both of you. I think education is key to the situation. It used to be extended families that educated new parents to a large extent. I don't think that happens near as much today as it used to. I know personally it has been a lifesaver having my parents living within 20 miles of us. I always thought I would want to be as far as possible from them, now I'm glad theyre there.
Posted by: Rapster04
drraptor, I recently purchased a Dinli JP 50 for my 5 yr old daughter. She loves it and I feel comfortable with it. Everyone tried telling me to get an 80 so that she can grow into it. The fact is that it has every safety feature you can imagine: leash, remote, and limiter and you can best believe that we use all of them. So what if she grows out of it in 2 yrs, I'll just buy her another and another. It's her safety that matters not the money.
Buy the appropriate age one for your kids, you won't regret it and you'll have a peace of mind.
They'll ride it for a few years, you can sell it and buy them another.
GoodLuck
By the way, the Dinli was 1,500 otd.
